Rope grooves & rappeling

[peakbaggers]

We visited U-Turn & Tierdrop last weekend in Arches and on the last rap of Tierdrop, there were considerable rope grooves, more than what we've seen in Boltergiest. Some of the grooves cause me concern that even a small kink in your rope as you pull could get it stuck in some of these deeper grooves. When I see grooves that are virtually vertical, it leads me to believe that part of the problem is people pulling their ropes from directly below their anchor rather than backing away a good distance to reduce rope drag over the rock, etc. But that's only part of the problem. So, not wanting to contribute more to the problem; do more to protect our ropes, and not being too sure how to search for this topic on this site, can you direct me to any discussions about various methods people use to reduce the grooves besides the most obvious of extending your anchor. In a number of cases, extending your anchor is not possible if you want to be able to get into your rappel safely. Would like some ideas as to what others are doing/recommend.

[Iceaxe]

Relocating the anchor often works, which is probably the best option for Tierdrop. Back in the good-ol-days Pine Creek had some really wicked rope grooves at the last rappel and ropes were always getting stuck. I believe it was Tom that took the time to properly relocate the anchor to its current, and much better location.

So we have... extending the anchor, relocating the anchor, extending rope pull.... any other thoughts on solving the rope groove problem?

[peakbaggers]

I read a post here recently where someone mentioned using some kind of padding device they had rigged themselves, it sounded like to place under the rope? We've used something like that some when we train in Colo. National Monument at a favorite location, but doesn't work for the last guy down.

[Iceaxe]

I don't see a padding device becoming standard equipment in most canyoneers arsenal. Tierdrop is now a trade route descended by your typical weekend canyoneers. Those type of canyoneers are not going to buy a bunch of specialized equipment to stop rope grooves. Same goes for most the trade routes where rope grooves are a problem.

[moab mark]

It would be tough at that location to move the anchor, since it is a BFR. That location needs the webbing to extend over the drop so the pull is easy. This is the same problem with the vast majority of all the anchors all over the C.P., the webbing is to short. For everyone but the last dude the end of the webbing needs to be pulled up and clipped into the loop going around the BFR. (Courtesy Rappel) With the last guy reextending it and making his butt pucker as he handlines on the webbing over the edge to get onto rappel.:stud:This sport needs a safe reliable releasable device, so rope's can just be released. Matt at Desert Highlights needs to patent his and then run from the liablility and 99% of these problems would go away.

Mark

[oval]

If you carry a hammer, you'll probably be doing the community a service to knock deeply grooved pieces off in areas where there are multiple deep channels right next to each other. Obviously the long term solution is to extend the rap point to the edge or relocate the anchors, as has been recommended.

[Scott Card]

"if you carry a hammer....." :popcorn:

[oval]

"if you carry a hammer....." :popcorn:

:D I know Shane doesn't carry one b/c it's heavy and mostly unnecessary. I'm sure Tom would crucify me for having one since he sells his G-picks for $1000. I personally carry one along with some angled pins "just in case". At 16 oz, it does add weight, but it can get an anchor in sandstone if needed- I side on prepared I guess.

[Scott Card]

I think Tom's hammers on actually on sale for 20% off. :haha:

[Skylinerider]

Resource damage....sound like we need to close off those canyons.:twisted:

[moab mark]

I copied this over from a thread from years ago.

http://www.deserthighlights.com/the-slick/the-slick.htm

[Iceaxe]

I copied this over from a thread from years ago.

http://www.deserthighlights.com/the-slick/the-slick.htm

This will never fly for many of the weekend canyoneers, they are not going to spend $100 to eliminate rope grooves. As a whole the canyoneering and climbing communities are populated be some of the cheapest... err.... thrifty.... people on the planet. At least compared to any other sport I've ever been involved with. Getting canyoneers as a group to blow the dust off their wallets is never going to happen.

[Brian in SLC]

Makes me wonder if some type of pad, connected at the bottom by a pull cord, might work? Install pad, rappel, then, pull rappel rope down over pad, then pull pad down? Might also double at saving the rope a bit too, and, keeping that fine sand out of the rope weave (and grooving out the belay device). Would be fairly easy to contruct. I'm not sure all configurations would have the pad stay in place, though, but, on long radius edges, and, sharp 90 degree type edges, maybe?

The rock in/near Arches can be phenominally soft. I recall doing a couple pitches on Sheep Rock (an aid climb) and just pulling up the rope cut deep grooves in the rock. Kinda cured me of doing much climbing there.

[Brian in SLC]

Another thought...you could have a pad that was, say, like a t-shirt. You could tie it off to the pull cord side and run the pull cord either through the middle of it, or, over the top. Lay the rappel rope over the top too. Both pulls would not see the rock (either through the shirt or on top of it).

Anyhoo...worth thinking about.

A well positioned fixed anchor solves some of the problem, that, or miles of webbing. Both kinda obtrusive.

[peakbaggers]

Thanks for all the responses ya'll! A number of things for this newbie to learn & consider. As for pad type material to be used under either sling/rope/etc, I was thinking about a thick piece of leather. Seems like only a few days ago, there was a post on here where someone mentioned something they had rigged up to go under rope. Have not been able to find that post. Was hoping to review what they said. The "Slick" looks interesting, especially in that it seems to work for extra long pulls, but I would not use it without having the opportunity to observe it's use. My philosophy is, the more complicated a rigging/knot is, the more likely that something can be done wrong. I like the KISS principle on stuff like this. Won't use it until I feel completely comfortable with it, and especially won't test it on my friends that I feel responsible for. Shane - you might be right about the "cheapness" of some, but for us, I'd have to say it takes some time to accumulate all the right equipment. We don't/didn't have enough money to go out and buy it all at once before getting started and we're still working on upgrading what we have.

[Iceaxe]

Shane - you might be right about the "cheapness" of some, but for us, I'd have to say it takes some time to accumulate all the right equipment. We don't/didn't have enough money to go out and buy it all at once before getting started and we're still working on upgrading what we have.

I agree... and I'm the same way. If I have $100 there are a lot of others things I'd spend the coin on instead of a rock protector.

With regards to Teirdrop. I believe the best answer for the drop is to relocate the anchor. Even if that means using a couple of bolts.

[ilipichicuma]

They mention putting leather or a hose under the rope in this thread.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?55000-A-Canyon-Care-Taking-(or-not)-Perspective

That actually sounds like a really good idea. Would just a piece of hose do a great job of protecting the rock and your rope? Then it would come down with the pull pretty easy, or it would at least be pretty easy to rig up a way to make sure it came down. But, I've never tried it so I can't be sure.

[Felicia]

I saw this at REI a couple weeks back. I think the price was around ten dollars.

[ghawk]

They mention putting leather or a hose under the rope in this thread.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?55000-A-Canyon-Care-Taking-(or-not)-Perspective

That actually sounds like a really good idea. Would just a piece of hose do a great job of protecting the rock and your rope? Then it would come down with the pull pretty easy, or it would at least be pretty easy to rig up a way to make sure it came down. But, I've never tried it so I can't be sure.

that seems like it would have mixed success. if you put a piece of hose or something under the rope during the rope pull it seems like the hose or whatever would have a good chance of getting pulled over by friction mid pull or something. my bet would be on extending the anchor for the experienced last person so the pull is clean, or getting sandtrap type techniques more generally understood and used. Those retrievable anchors look pretty cool too. but making it all idiot proof is the challenge so that new people can adopt better techniques. :hmm2: I think extending the anchor is the important thing to push for with where things are now. push for education on that and I think issues will drop.

[Iceaxe]

They mention putting leather or a hose under the rope in this thread.

Whatever you put on or under the rope you also have to be able to pull down without snagging when you are done.

[Iceaxe]

70% of rope grooving in caused by laziness... probably anther 29% cause by lack of experience/lack of skills....

Most of the rope groove problems could be easily solved if we all just stepped up to the plate and do out part in providing a proper anchor and/or mentoring the less skilled.

Dang…. You can really see a long ways from the top of this horse! :haha:

[ratagonia]

Whatever you put on or under the rope you also have to be able to pull down without snagging when you are done.

The idea with leather is, it falls down, and maybe you get it. It is inexpensive, and less trashy than a more-artificial kind of material left in a canyon.

Works OK a lot of the time, poorly at other times.

Tom

[peakbaggers]

I took a look at the slide show for the Spirol Rope Protector. Looks like it's main purpose is to do exaxctly what it's name says- protect your rope from sharp edges, etc., not so much to try and save the rock. Seems fairly flexible and would perhaps pull okay but wraps so tightly around the rope that it may not do any good for the rock. You could easily envision it grinding it's way in. Perhaps it's smoother surface would be less abrasive than the rope itself. Obviously not designed for the sandstone that canyoneers have to deal with - just look at the rock in the photo, but would it help?

[Scott Card]

The idea with leather is, it falls down, and maybe you get it. It is inexpensive, and less trashy than a more-artificial kind of material left in a canyon.

Works OK a lot of the time, poorly at other times.

Tom
There is usually a dead deer or two in the canyon which will provide a natural source of leather for this rock protection.

[ratagonia]

I took a look at the slide show for the Spirol Rope Protector. Looks like it's main purpose is to do exaxctly what it's name says- protect your rope from sharp edges, etc., not so much to try and save the rock. Seems fairly flexible and would perhaps pull okay but wraps so tightly around the rope that it may not do any good for the rock. You could easily envision it grinding it's way in. Perhaps it's smoother surface would be less abrasive than the rope itself. Obviously not designed for the sandstone that canyoneers have to deal with - just look at the rock in the photo, but would it help?

Yes, it would.

Again, there are many things we can do in a non-pull-through environment. And we should do. But the normal canyoneering scenario is a pull-through environment, and that is a tougher nut to crack. I think Mark Smith may be onto something that will work. We'll see.

Tom

[moab mark]

Yes, it would.

Again, there are many things we can do in a non-pull-through environment. And we should do. But the normal canyoneering scenario is a pull-through environment, and that is a tougher nut to crack. I think Mark Smith may be onto something that will work. We'll see.

Tom

There has been a discussion going on over on the Canyon Group about a releasable Stone Knot. A concept was posted about using a screwdriver in place of the biner in a stone knot and then pulling the screwdriver to release the knot. One leg of the knot would only be a few feet long and when released it would either feed around the anchor or feed thru the rapide and come falling down. I have been thinking about this for a few days and decided to add a keeper pin to the rod to prevent pre release.

Here are some pictures of a couple of devices I created today. The larger one is a 1/2" tube and is actually easier to pull then the 3/8 rod. What makes the tube pull out easily is when you pull it the tube rotates the Stone Knot so the tube is vertical and pulls right out. The pull down cord needs to be extended out a little from the knot to create the needed leverage. The smaller one struggles to rotate the knot. When pulling the pull cord the keeper pin pulls and then the tube pulls. The keeper pin is the size of the ones used on a hitch pin for a truck. Tom had the idea to put the pin in the middle of the knot and I think that is the way to set it up.


https://picasaweb.google.com/markimsmith/StoneKnot#

[moab mark]

Here is one more picture showing how it pulls. I have played with this in a controlled environment (20' rappels in a gym) and seems to work quite well. Needs to be tested in the real world.

Edit in the real world I would leave a tail that is a couple of ft long. But for the picture I shortened it up.

Mark

[moab mark]

I played around with the 1/2" tube and it has the same problem as the 1" wood dowel I started with. When pulling the rappel strand it will pop free but the loop in the release side still holds it shape and the knot cinches down on itself. The rod has to be 3/8" or smaller to successfully collapse each time.
Here is a picture showing what happens with the 1/2" tube.

[oval]

While I appreciate the ingenuity of that rappel rig; for me personally, any system that requires tension on a removable piece for a safe rappel is too dangerous.

I'm not saying it doesn't work, and I'm also not saying it doesn't work a majority of the time, but that one time where you miss it and the pieces slips or gets pushed out by the rock, or whatever, is in my opinion too great a risk. Cool idea though.

[ratagonia]

I played around with the 1/2" tube and it has the same problem as the 1" wood dowel I started with. When pulling the rappel strand it will pop free but the loop in the release side still holds it shape and the knot cinches down on itself. The rod has to be 3/8" or smaller to successfully collapse each time.
Here is a picture showing what happens with the 1/2" tube.

Try making the Stone Knot UP, rather than down. I usually make it down, but, after making the loop, you can slide it to the two strands above the pivot point (the crossing) rather than down. The dynamic changes slightly, might work better.

Tom

[ratagonia]

While I appreciate the ingenuity of that rappel rig; for me personally, any system that requires tension on a removable piece for a safe rappel is too dangerous.

I'm not saying it doesn't work, and I'm also not saying it doesn't work a majority of the time, but that one time where you miss it and the pieces slips or gets pushed out by the rock, or whatever, is in my opinion too great a risk. Cool idea though.

The goal is to make something that is 100% safe, but we might end up with something that is only 99% safe, and has to be used with care. But then again, people screw up various kinds of rigging, including kinds we think are very, very simple and safe.

Tom :moses:

[ghawk]

While I appreciate the ingenuity of that rappel rig; for me personally, any system that requires tension on a removable piece for a safe rappel is too dangerous.

I'm not saying it doesn't work, and I'm also not saying it doesn't work a majority of the time, but that one time where you miss it and the pieces slips or gets pushed out by the rock, or whatever, is in my opinion too great a risk. Cool idea though.

If you do it right you've rigged it for the first person with it backed up and tested it with each subsequent person until the last person goes. That way you can greatly reduce the chance that something goes wrong because you've already tested it with two or 3 people with the back up. and then the experienced last person is extra careful. :mrgreen:

[moab mark]

Try making the Stone Knot UP, rather than down. I usually make it down, but, after making the loop, you can slide it to the two strands above the pivot point (the crossing) rather than down. The dynamic changes slightly, might work better.

Tom
I'll try that. One twist I tried is where the two strands go over the tube or rod I crossed them with the rappel strand on top of the release strand. You cannot have the pin in the middle under this scenerio. When the rappel strand is pulled it seems to pop the release strand out with it. From what I am seeing the rod needs to be small to be comfortable with a guaranteed release. On the 3/8's one I drilled the hole big enough for the hitch pin but there isn't much meat to the rod for it to click on. Also when using the small rod I see absolutely no slippage in the Stone Knot. If someone can come up with a different idea for a pin we would be in business. Or just make the rod about 10" long and it should be solid. Once the knot has been dressed the pin is going nowhere. We tried to pull the short pin while on rappel and that is never going to happen. It wouldn't move a 1/4".



Mark

[moab mark]

Anybody ever played with one of the double microcenders? If one of the jaws was going in the other direction may work for a releasable device? One set of jaws on rappel strand, one on the short end. Have a pull release on short side and the device would come down on the rappel strand? Yea it would be pricey but hey may work. May also break on the first drop. Would need to be tough and maybe rubber coated. It's price is right on Shanes threshold.:lol8:

Mark

http://www.rockexotica.com/products/rope_grabs/all_grabs_camming.html

[moab mark]

Bump

There is a discussion going on in another thread about fiddlesticks. If you look up a couple of posts you can see some pictures of the ones I was playing with. I could not get them to consistently collapse.

Mark

[oldno7]

Yours is not a stone hitch, others have had similar release problems when tied improper.

When tied as I showed in "how do you stein" I have had it release everytime, up to 200'(really pretty fun to watch come down)

Just make sure your pull path is clear, so the dowell cannot get lodged in a crack or ??

[hank moon]

Getting canyoneers as a group to blow the dust off their wallets is never going to happen.

One can imagine that as the sport gets more popular, so will more specific regulation - perhaps even by the BLM. So...never say never :)

[moab mark]

Yours is not a stone hitch, others have had similar release problems when tied improper.

When tied as I showed in "how do you stein" I have had it release everytime, up to 200'(really pretty fun to watch come down)

Just make sure your pull path is clear, so the dowell cannot get lodged in a crack or ??
What brand of rope?

[oldno7]

What brand of rope?

Mostly ICG/8-8.3mm

Will admit to very little real time experience with 9mm.

Seems the line of choice for us is usually 8mmish when squeezing and longer days are part of the itinerary.

[deagol]

I saw this at REI a couple weeks back. I think the price was around ten dollars.

I use one of these and was even able to pull it through the rapid in Fry when pulling the rope. Worked great

[oldno7]

What brand of rope?

I guess you have to keep your replies short when responding from a pew?:lol8:

[moab mark]

How did you know:lol8:

[moab mark]

I'm home now. I was using a 8.3 ICG when I was testing this idea. It was pretty stiff at the time. I will go try your stein concept next time I am out.

[ratagonia]

Yours is not a stone hitch, others have had similar release problems when tied improper.

When tied as I showed in "how do you stein" I have had it release everytime, up to 200'; really pretty fun to watch come down.

Just make sure your pull path is clear, so the dowel cannot get lodged in a crack or ??

Looks like a downward, overhand Stone to me.

Tom

[moab mark]

Looks like a downward, overhand Stone to me.

Tom
That is what it is. It is what you taught us eons ago in Mystery.

[oldno7]

We set up this releasable(stone) yesterday in Mystery. Used the old ICG 9mm line.
It definitely required more dressing on the dowel.(it was dressed tighter before rapping than in the pic.) The release was somewhat hilarious and easy. (Tyler gave it a yank and it came down and pegged him in the thigh:lol8:) The rap line hung a little but a gentle tug and it came down with ease.

So I think rope diameter has an effect on this system but proper set up is more important.

We also backed up this system with meat.

This dowel is 1" and has an resin coating.

[ratagonia]

Nice friction-hitch backup - well done sir!

Tom :moses:

[moab mark]

Give Old No. 7 an award. When you tie it with the upward 8 stone it works flawlessly. The knot just falls apart. Thanks for the tip.

Mark

[Sandstone Addiction]

Mark, looks very good, I really like the safety clip.

What kind of pipe have you found works best and what size?