View Full Version : Subway still closed? Why?
ratagonia
05-04-2011, 07:40 AM
The Park will probably keep the Subway closed until they get enough complaints. Be a complainer - ask to speak to the Superintendent: 1-435-772-3256
Thanks.
Tom
ghawk
05-04-2011, 08:31 AM
Just called them up. It pushed me to a message system so I left one. I told them I thought it was doable when my group went through and that we got slowed down because of the people we had to pick up, and that it should definitely be open now. If we overload them with calls that should help hopefully. - Gavin
ratagonia
05-04-2011, 08:36 AM
Just called them up. It pushed me to a message system so I left one. I told them I thought it was doable when my group went through and that we got slowed down because of the people we had to pick up, and that it should definitely be open now. If we overload them with calls that should help hopefully. - Gavin
Thanks Gavin. :moses:
xxnitsuaxx
05-04-2011, 09:26 AM
I just called and told them that I had a group of 16 "experienced outdoorsmen" and we had already picked up our ropes from Harbor Freight and I had looked at a picture of the Subway once and we had already bought our all-cotton hiking clothes and we just needed to know where the paved part of the trail ended and how regularly spaced the "YOU ARE HERE" maps were along the hike and if there was any running water in the canyon. I think that really helped.
Iceaxe
05-04-2011, 09:45 AM
I've been sending emails for the past week... with no replies as of yet. :popcorn:
ratagonia
05-04-2011, 09:46 AM
I just called and told them that I had a group of 16 "experienced outdoorsmen" and we had already picked up our ropes from Harbor Freight and I had looked at a picture of the Subway once and we had already bought our all-cotton hiking clothes and we just needed to know where the paved part of the trail ended and how regularly spaced the "YOU ARE HERE" maps were along the hike and if there was any running water in the canyon. I think that really helped.
Ooops, the group size limit is 12, so you will have to get two permits. :haha:
Tom :moses:
Jammer
05-04-2011, 10:06 AM
Does the subway in Zion replace the shuttle system? I'll call and complain -- why have it, if you can't ride it?!
:haha:
- Jamal
ghawk
05-04-2011, 11:25 AM
just got a message on my phone from a Ranger. He said that a ranger group went and did it last week and they felt it wasn't safe "for the average person." Glad to know they've made that judgement call for me and are keeping out all people because there is the chance an average person could get stuck. And isn't canyoneering a technical sport? I've never considered it a thing average people should be doing. I'm pretty sure I have to check like 10 boxes saying I know I could die if I go canyoneering on every permit I get. Maybe a nice warning at the backcountry desk with a big sign that says "if you do the subway- you will die!!" would be enough. :facepalm1:
I called them about a week ago and Derek (backcountry desk) said that his hunch is it's going to remain closed at least until Mid-May even if it drops down to "about normal levels". He said the superintendent and others are thinking of ways of 1) whether to close the subway until a certain date (similar to the narrows) 2) allow permit holders to descend the Subway BUT with more warnings and notices. He was saying that the #2 option is what the pubic wants but the park doesn't want to keep "wasting resources" due to recreationists going underprepared AND THEN calling for help due to their lack of preparations.
Also, And those that already have permits for those days, from reserving early, will lose that money unfortunately.
accadacca
05-04-2011, 10:26 PM
I just called and told them that I had a group of 16 "experienced outdoorsmen" and we had already picked up our ropes from Harbor Freight and I had looked at a picture of the Subway once and we had already bought our all-cotton hiking clothes and we just needed to know where the paved part of the trail ended and how regularly spaced the "YOU ARE HERE" maps were along the hike and if there was any running water in the canyon. I think that really helped.
:2thumbs: :roflol:
UtahAdventureGuide
05-05-2011, 08:01 AM
Called this morning and was told it was still closed with no plans to reopen it. She did say they were going up to lava point this week to take pictures of the conditions. If i'm down there this weekend I'll show up at the backcountry desk in shorts and a t-shirt with a 20' piece of 4mm cord and get a permit for heaps canyon. If it's not closed it must be safe right?
mhambi
05-05-2011, 09:32 AM
I heard they had brought in some SITLA consultants and were in the process of making some "improvements" to make it safer for everybody.
http://i52.tinypic.com/2qtl64o.jpg
I thought I saw a pump truck up at the top of the hike too...
ratagonia
05-05-2011, 10:03 AM
Called this morning and was told it was still closed with no plans to reopen it. She did say they were going up to lava point this week to take pictures of the conditions. If i'm down there this weekend I'll show up at the backcountry desk in shorts and a t-shirt with a 20' piece of 4mm cord and get a permit for heaps canyon. If it's not closed it must be safe right?
I was suggesting COMPLAINING about the abrogation of your rights, not MOCKING their incompetence.
T
Iceaxe
05-05-2011, 11:20 AM
not MOCKING their incompetence.
It's hard to toss a rock anywhere in that park and not hit incompetence....
tanya
05-05-2011, 04:36 PM
Dang! With the water flow in there ......
I called and asked for a kayak permit! YeeeHawww!!!! :lol8:
I just called and told them that I had a group of 16 "experienced outdoorsmen" and we had already picked up our ropes from Harbor Freight and I had looked at a picture of the Subway once and we had already bought our all-cotton hiking clothes and we just needed to know where the paved part of the trail ended and how regularly spaced the "YOU ARE HERE" maps were along the hike and if there was any running water in the canyon. I think that really helped.
Harbor Freight Motherf*ckers! :nono:
:roflol::lol8:
accadacca
05-05-2011, 08:01 PM
Harbor Freight Motherf*ckers! :nono:
:roflol::lol8:
I loved that part. :haha
airman
05-08-2011, 08:35 PM
I did the "bottom up" on Friday, May 6. The water levels looked the same as it does in the "Escaping the Zion Subway" 1 & 2 videos. I've done the Subway almost every year since 1992 and have never seen the water levels this high. It was awesome. I wish the "top down" route was open. :wallbash:
A Ranger checked my permit at the end of the hike. I asked him why the "top down" route was still closed. He said a group of Rangers did it earlier in the week and said it was "not safe" yet. I politely expressed my displeasure for the closure and left it at that. I have found that arguing with Rangers is a waste of time. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I've begun to wonder if they've bugged the Left Fork Trailhead. It seems that in recent years they always pull into the lot about 10 minutes after I get to the trailhead at the end of the day to check my permit. :patch:
I miss the days when the Subway was a secret, "canyoneering" wasn't a word yet, and I didn't need to win the "lottery" to go on a hike.
Been lurking on Bogley for awhile. Thank you to those of you in the community that provide great information on this site. You make me laugh a lot and I appreciate it. :2thumbs:
restrac2000
05-08-2011, 09:12 PM
It seems we need to start lobbying for the NPS to get out of the rescue business. Let folks make their own mistakes. Rescues have led to far too many closures great "resources": the narrows for kayaks, Kolob above very low cfs, and now the Subway.
I am all for permits to track and control quantity of usage to a "resource" but the park should not be in the job of telling us we are not capable of mitigating risks ourselves.
Sad state of affairs.
Phillip
spinesnaper
05-09-2011, 12:07 PM
Tom
Help me understand this, it's ok for the park service to encourage inexperienced hikers to fall off of Angels Landing to their death by placing a hand line in the form of a suspended chain out there, but the Subway, a recognized technical route, is too dangerous for canyoneers? I am not really supposed to understand the logic of this, right?:wallbash:
ratagonia
05-09-2011, 02:52 PM
Tom
Help me understand this, it's ok for the park service to encourage inexperienced hikers to fall off of Angels Landing to their death by placing a hand line in the form of a suspended chain out there, but the Subway, a recognized technical route, is too dangerous for canyoneers? I am not really supposed to understand the logic of this, right?:wallbash:
You can perhaps understand that which is not there, but the logic, if present, escapes my grasp.
reason and love keep little company together now-a-days; the
more the pity that some honest neighbours will not make them friends.
tanya
05-09-2011, 04:07 PM
It's been raining like crazy the last 2 days. I wonder what the Subway and Narrows look like. The other waterways I see from the road are flowing pretty heavy.
airman
05-10-2011, 06:48 PM
It's been raining like crazy the last 2 days. I wonder what the Subway and Narrows look like. The other waterways I see from the road are flowing pretty heavy.
I'm sure it's still flowing extremely high right now. I tried to post some pictures from May 6, but apparently I don't have that honor and privilege yet. The flows were amazing.
tanya
05-10-2011, 07:34 PM
You should be able to post photos. I saw a video of it and its crAZY in there.
Welcome!
airman
05-11-2011, 06:06 AM
You should be able to post photos. I saw a video of it and its crAZY in there.
Welcome!
I still can't post photos. I get an error message that says, "You are not allowed to post any kinds of links, images or videos until you post a few times." I'm familiar with HTML, etc.
Here are the URLs for someone with higher authority and greatness, if such being desires to post them. :hail2thechief: The photos were taken May 6.
Cascading Waterfalls:
i54.tinypic.com/e6d11c.jpg
Potholes in the Subway:
i56.tinypic.com/2lc7okl.jpg
Subway:
i56.tinypic.com/efky6v.jpg
jdgibney
05-11-2011, 06:31 AM
Wow, here you go, nice shots!
Potholes in the Subway:
44206
Cascading Waterfalls:
44205
Subway:
44207
airman
05-11-2011, 07:09 AM
Thank you. The captions on the first two pictures are switched (edit - this has been corrected). Hopefully the pictures will motivate more people to call and complain about the top down route closure. It would be awesome right now.
backofbeyond
05-11-2011, 08:14 AM
I heard that when NPS originally started their proposed plans for permits and regulations they invited the canyoneering community to be involved in the process and only a hand full of canyoneers showed up, is this true? I would think that if experienced people had shown up to the meetings things may be different in the park today. Also if this is the case it is OUR faults for not showing up and voicing OUR opinions; now it is too late and all we can do is complain on bogely. I do not agree with all the parks policies but they are covering their own ass from getting sued if Darwinism occurs.Who know's maybe it's not to late to get involved in changing their policy's.
ratagonia
05-11-2011, 08:38 AM
I heard that when NPS originally started their proposed plans for permits and regulations they invited the canyoneering community to be involved in the process and only a hand full of canyoneers showed up, is this true? I would think that if experienced people had shown up to the meetings things may be different in the park today. Also if this is the case it is OUR faults for not showing up and voicing OUR opinions; now it is too late and all we can do is complain on bogely. I do not agree with all the parks policies but they are covering their own ass from getting sued if Darwinism occurs.Who know's maybe it's not to late to get involved in changing their policy's.
Historical revisionism at its best. According to the Park?
There was plenty of input from canyoneers. Some of it was incorporated into the management plan, but mostly it was ignored.
Tom
jdgibney
05-11-2011, 08:42 AM
Thank you. The captions on the first two pictures are switched, obviously. Hopefully the pictures will motivate more people to call and complain about the top down route closure. It would be awesome right now.
Fixed the captions, my bad! :)
Brian in SLC
05-11-2011, 10:04 AM
Historical revisionism at its best. According to the Park?
There was plenty of input from canyoneers. Some of it was incorporated into the management plan, but mostly it was ignored.
Tom
Ditto the above. We had very good turnouts and a gob of comments. My bet by far the most vocal user group to comment on the management plan and backcountry plan.
ZCC: Kip on the t-shirt! Just dug mine out the other day. Then, talked to the Kipper. Serendipity, baby! I think we drove past each other last weekend, when I made the tactical error of eating at that Buffalo jerky place in Virgin. Shoulda pushed on to Springdale.
Iceaxe
05-11-2011, 12:12 PM
Historical revisionism at its best. According to the Park?
There was plenty of input from canyoneers. Some of it was incorporated into the management plan, but mostly it was ignored.
Tom
x3
The canyoneering community did a nice job of responding.
UtahAdventureGuide
05-11-2011, 12:33 PM
The Backcountry office called me back today and said they were hiking into the drainages at lava point and the subway and were going to meet tomorrow to discuss reopening the canyon. Flow through the North Fork is still around 1000 CFS so not sure what it will be like in the subway. anyway, get your calls in this afternoon and lets see if we can sway their votes.
ratagonia
05-11-2011, 12:43 PM
The Backcountry office called me back today and said they were hiking into the drainages at lava point and the subway and were going to meet tomorrow to discuss reopening the canyon. Flow through the North Fork is still around 1000 CFS so not sure what it will be like in the subway. anyway, get your calls in this afternoon and lets see if we can sway their votes.
Flow on the Mississippi River is way up!!!!! No way they can open the Subway.
Okay, North Fork flow has slightly more relevance. but...
Tom :moses:
backofbeyond
05-11-2011, 01:05 PM
Historical revisionism at its best. According to the Park?
There was plenty of input from canyoneers. Some of it was incorporated into the management plan, but mostly it was ignored.
Tom
Thanks Tom
stefan
05-11-2011, 01:13 PM
I still can't post photos. I get an error message that says, "You are not allowed to post any kinds of links, images or videos until you post a few times." I'm familiar with HTML, etc.
i think it's after 5 posts if i remember correctly. you're currently at 4.
many thanks for posting these. wild stuff
bshwakr
05-11-2011, 01:50 PM
__
Scott Card
05-11-2011, 02:31 PM
x3
The canyoneering community did a nice job of responding.
X4 :angryfire:
heatheraball
05-25-2011, 11:07 AM
Is there any new information on subway yet? I don't expect the top down will be open, but we have permits for Monday.
deathtointernet
05-25-2011, 03:24 PM
When I picked up a permit for Keyhole (just beautiful right now by the way) on Sunday the ranger said they had been in there checking it out the previous day and "there was a lot of water." Shocking to everyone, I know. The whole thing came across as a sort of casual 'who knows when we'll get around to it.'
ocanler
05-25-2011, 09:26 PM
I called them today. They confirmed: too dangerous, no idea when it will be re-opened at this point. Still some snow to melt at high altitude.
oldno7
05-26-2011, 05:40 AM
I called them today. They confirmed: too dangerous, no idea when it will be re-opened at this point. Still some snow to melt at high altitude.
And the problem with that answer is that the Subway drainage is all mid-elevation, I would say entirely un affected by higher snow pack.
bshwakr
05-26-2011, 10:25 AM
__
deathtointernet
05-30-2011, 07:08 AM
44777
Blue Creek in Wildcat Canyon yesterday. Yup, there's your problem.
Wasn't the rescue back in April done with with the river (right fork) over 1000+ CFS? Well today the CFS is listed at 382 CFS. And the mean/average CFS for June 12 (since 1988) is 123 CFS (according to USGS Water data).
The gauge for the North fork is misleading since the Subway is the Left Fork, and not the Right Fork - but they do meetup later on, and that's where they do their measurements. So doing some deduction - the subway is probably around 200 CFS I'm guessing for today. Which seems very, very reasonable to let people go through now!
Tom, is is safe to assume that left fork and right fork share 60/40 (respectively) of the volume of the North fork?
bshwakr
06-12-2011, 02:44 PM
__
If you mean 'North Creek', I would say that 60/40 is probably accurate. I was at their confluence last weekend....there's no reason the Subway shouldn't be open.
Yea sorry for the slipup. So many directional names you gotta keep track of...lol.
I saw your report and it is very double now.
What's the park gonna do now - raise entrance fees again due to loss of revenue on permits for the subway? Haha.
Iceaxe
06-13-2011, 12:39 PM
According to the Zion permit page (https://zionpermits.nps.gov/).....
The Subway is now OPEN!!!
ststephen
06-13-2011, 12:55 PM
I just tried calling Kolob visitor center and they said "my morning report still says it is closed". Maybe they haven't gotten word yet? It would be nice to hear a positive confirmation vs. just the absence of a closed message on the website.
That's so weird Shane, as I was checking it out the same time you were. ANywho I was checking out Permits for Heaps later on this year, and noticed about 15min ago they removed the "TOP DOWN SUBWAY IS TEMPORARILY CLOSED" sign!
It must be true. Hallelujah!
And FYI - The only 5 closed slot canyons at this time are:
-Engelsted
-Imlay
-Mystery
-Orderville
-Narrows (top-down)
Suprisingly, Echo is open?
Iceaxe
06-13-2011, 01:26 PM
Suprisingly, Echo is open?
Echo is kind of a strange animal.... it all depends on how much snow avalanched into the canyon over the winter. Some years the snow in the canyon is on par with other slots around the same elevation, and some years its like visiting Hoth.
The first few years that Zion canyoneering really took off (about 2002) were mild years for Echo with little snow build up in the slot and I think folks assumed that was normal.... and then we got a couple big snow in the slot years and that caught a few canyoneers by surprise.
Brian in SLC
06-13-2011, 02:37 PM
The first few years that Zion canyoneering really took off (about 2002) were mild years for Echo with little snow build up in the slot and I think folks assumed that was normal.... and then we got a couple big snow in the slot years and that caught a few canyoneers by surprise.
45240
Middle Echo 20 March 2004...
Iceaxe
06-13-2011, 03:06 PM
Middle Echo 20 March 2004...
:lol8:
Did you ever think.... now days you would never be granted a permit.
Middle Echo 20 March 2004...
So are you saying this is normal or abnormal for Echo for conditions in March? I've been through Echo twice, but have been in late August and October, never earlier.
I would assume that the picture is normal for March, (granted they don't let people through probably that early in the year)?
According to the Zion permit page (https://zionpermits.nps.gov/).....
The Subway is now OPEN!!!
I did just talk to the backcountry desk and they confirmed that it is open.
Scott P
06-13-2011, 04:46 PM
Echo is kind of a strange animal.... it all depends on how much snow avalanched into the canyon over the winter. Some years the snow in the canyon is on par with other slots around the same elevation, and some years its like visiting Hoth.
The first few years that Zion canyoneering really took off (about 2002) were mild years for Echo with little snow build up in the slot and I think folks assumed that was normal.... and then we got a couple big snow in the slot years and that caught a few canyoneers by surprise.
Indeed. We did the canyon in mid-May 2007. Not only was there no snow, but there were only a few pools and it was pretty dry. I would bet that it was buried in snow this year.
Iceaxe
06-13-2011, 04:48 PM
I've done the canyon over memorial weekend with just a few minor snow drifts. Nothing like you see in the avalanche years.
ratagonia
06-14-2011, 08:45 AM
So are you saying this is normal or abnormal for Echo for conditions in March? I've been through Echo twice, but have been in late August and October, never earlier.
I would assume that the picture is normal for March, (granted they don't let people through probably that early in the year)?
In the desert, there is no "normal". A characteristic of the Utah desert, at least, is that the weather is highly variable. Usually less than 10" of precip a year, but last December we got 9" in 5 days!!!
Tom
ratagonia
06-14-2011, 08:51 AM
Echo is kind of a strange animal.... it all depends on how much snow avalanched into the canyon over the winter. Some years the snow in the canyon is on par with other slots around the same elevation, and some years its like visiting Hoth.
The first few years that Zion canyoneering really took off (about 2002) were mild years for Echo with little snow build up in the slot and I think folks assumed that was normal.... and then we got a couple big snow in the slot years and that caught a few canyoneers by surprise.
Echo is a strange animal, and there are two important factors: 1. how much snow falls in there, and 2. how much water flow occurs during melt-off.
BIG SNOW years in Echo are the result of a lot of early snow and not so much late snow. The Early Snow falls down in there and forms huge piles of snow. If there is late snow, then that snow melts in the spring and flows through the canyon and melts much of the accumulated snow. That is what happened this year. Without that flow, the snow persists much longer.
Word is, Echo is open with an Ice Axe recommended. So someone has been through Echo and made it without too much difficulty. Perhaps Park Staff.
Tom :moses:
Brian in SLC
06-14-2011, 09:48 AM
So are you saying this is normal or abnormal for Echo for conditions in March? I've been through Echo twice, but have been in late August and October, never earlier.
I would assume that the picture is normal for March, (granted they don't let people through probably that early in the year)?
Dunno. I guess, since it was the third reload that day, it wasn't unexpected. We had a shuttle drop us off at the Ponderosa for a descent of Englestead, which looked frightening. So, we walked over a took a gander down Mystery, which looked bad too. Ended up at Middle Echo. Pretty funny. Long hike for a short canyon, ha ha. Did manage to punch everyone's ticket pretty well, though. I think I cured most of the folks on early season canyoning...ha ha.
I would hope the park doesn't really regulate this stuff too much. Who's to say if a canyon is in condition and when? I mean, some of us have done Imlay in the winter, starting off in the parking lot when the temperature was a balmy 16 degree F. Safe? Hardly. Not much margin. And that's...ok.
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