A question about retrievable anchors

[RyanGJ]

Let me preface my question by stating that I am asking specifically about retrievable anchors around natural features and not bolts or other anchor set-ups (I know what type of storm that topic can set off!).

It seems that using a retrievable anchor has not become the standard amongst most people descending canyons. nearly every natural anchor I have encountered (if not all) has some fixed webbing or cord with a link on it. Many of these anchors can easily be made retrievable with very basic skills.

1.Do you believe that it is a good practice to remove existing webbing if a retrievable can be set up?

2. Does removing existing webbing and link place the next party at risk? (Especially if there was another anchor earlier that could not be made retrievable and some existing webbing is in place allowing a possibly unprepared party to pull a rope then arrive at a now non-existing anchor since retrievable anchors may not necessarily be expected by novices.)

3. How often have you had retrievable anchors get stuck and have to leave the pull cord and all?

Thanks for helping me learn! I really like to leave a canyon with as little left behind as possible, but want to ensure a great experience and most importantly a safe experience for those who will follow me.

[tylerhirshfeld]

Though building a retrievable anchor can be very easy to learn and do, most of your canyons are descended by someone who has purchased a rope, a harness, carabiner, and belay device, and thats it. Most only know the basics, any one can do a toss n go and rig a figure 8. I think that if you were to remove the webbing from around a tree in say "Spry", the next group through would put a whole new anchor up. I can imagine this would also cause alot of unneccesary social trails, as people would go around looking for the best spot to put the new anchor. I would say, "Just leave the webbing there, or replace it with something that matches the surroundings better." Instead of 2 30' peices of webbing around a chokestone, shorten it to a decent length without all the extra junk. Instead of 2 beefy QL's, leave one. Down inside the canyon, its your call. Just think about the others who arent quite as knowledgable as you, and keep good ethics. Great questions though...

[Wasatch]

Quite a few canyons have been ghosted. Usually the under the radar one's.

[Brian in SLC]

1.Do you believe that it is a good practice to remove existing webbing if a retrievable can be set up?

2. Does removing existing webbing and link place the next party at risk?

3. How often have you had retrievable anchors get stuck and have to leave the pull cord and all?


1) Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I think well thought out fixed anchors can really minimize damage to a canyon. They can save a tree from gettin' rope burned which will kill it, can save scarring on the rock from rope pulls, etc. You could easily make the arguement, that with enough fixed line, you could descend any canyon, and, then re-ascend and pull ALL of your anchors and rope back up with you. Best practise? Probably not.

2) Possible. Not all folks are that skilled. There is, right or wrong, some expectation on more highly travelled trade routes that there be some measure of fixed anchors. So, stripping anchors out might force folks to put their own skills to use, and, some might blow it.

3) Never.

[shaggy125]

Let me introduce you to a tool called the Sandtrap, it's pretty awesome and I have used it in MANY situations. It doesn't work at every drop but is most useful at drops where there are not chockstones or easy to build natural anchors. A lot of people hear about it and are totally sketched out at the thought of rappelling off a bag of sand and then pulling it down behind them but once you see it in action and bounce on it a couple times on rappel, you see how awesome it actually is (Mark got to see it in action for the first time last week, I know he was impressed). I'd say in trade routes, i/e Zion canyons and the popular North Wash stuff there are a lot of noobs who expect to see webbing at a drop and if it's not there they may freak. On more remote stuff I would remove fixed anchors if a retrievable can be set up.

I can think of two times we've stuck a retreivable anchor but both times there was minimal risk in going back up the drop to unstick it. I've never had to leave rope or pull cord behind in any canyon.

A link to the sandtrap on Tom's site:

http://imlaycanyongear.com/sandtrap.php

[moab mark]

I ordered another one yesterday. It is truly an amazing tool. When Jenny gets the water bladder figured out it will really increase its use.

[mrbrejcha]

1) Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I think well thought out fixed anchors can really minimize damage to a canyon. They can save a tree from gettin' rope burned which will kill it, can save scarring on the rock from rope pulls, etc. You could easily make the arguement, that with enough fixed line, you could descend any canyon, and, then re-ascend and pull ALL of your anchors and rope back up with you. Best practise? Probably not.

2) Possible. Not all folks are that skilled. There is, right or wrong, some expectation on more highly travelled trade routes that there be some measure of fixed anchors. So, stripping anchors out might force folks to put their own skills to use, and, some might blow it.

3) Never.

What he said.

[ratagonia]

Yeah, what they said.

Retrievable anchors are used when appropriate. If you are in a canyon that is done often and has webbing/anchors in place, feel free to use retrievables, but what is the point? Removing an established anchor and not establishing another anchor is un-courteous. You could screw up a party coming behind you that is not well-prepared.

Use ghosting in ghosting canyons. No Kidding is a fun, ghosting "trade route". Try not to get your trap stuck on the last rap like I did.

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

Early on, using less primitive tools, I have stuck the retrievable at least two times, where we reached up and cut the retrieval line. And in one case, the rope. And in another, Mark Rosen cut the middle 10 feet out of my brand new BlueWater dual-sheath rope!

Tom

[RyanGJ]

I wanted to say thanks for all the input!

[Spidey]

Early on, using less primitive tools, I have stuck the retrievable at least two times, where we reached up and cut the retrieval line. And in one case, the rope. And in another, Mark Rosen cut the middle 10 feet out of my brand new BlueWater dual-sheath rope!

Tom

Let's not forget the 80 foot batman incident in Poe.:lol8: We got all our gear back, but we definitely got it stuck. The bat-manning not recommended.:crazycobasa:

[Bo_Beck]

What he said.
What he said about what he said.

[mrbrejcha]

What he said about what he said.

Well said.

[Iceaxe]

We ran into a very interesting rappel this past weekend that I thought some of you might be interested in.


We encountered a 35-foot rappel, with zero anchor building material in the area. No rocks, no sand, no place to dig, and we were blocked from returning up canyon.


So we rappeled from a Cliffhanger hook in a very solid placement. The biggest problem with this rappel is that the hook placement is so solid you can not get your hooks to release by flipping the rope after you complete your rappel.


So.... here is what we did... We tie one 50-foot rope to the hook to rappel from. We clipped a quick-link to the handles of a potshot. We placed the weighted potshot 3-feet behind (up canyon from) the hook. We tie the second 50-foot rope to the actual hook, ran the rope backwards, through the quick-link attached to the potshot, and than back over the edge to act as our pull chord. After the last man rappelled we tugged on the pull chord, which pulled the hook from its placement, snagged on the quick-link attached to the potshot, and allow us to pull the entire setup down.

Ghosting at its finest, next group through will find nothing but virgin slot. :cool2:

[Iceaxe]

where's the footage of your wonder-hook-and-retrieve method?

Unfortunately we didn't get any video or pictures of our hook method. We really didn't think the hook would be a problem and we normally just whip the rope and the hook will release. We spent about an hour at this drop messing around with different anchors, First trying to find material to build a deadman, we found a rock at the bottom but there was no where and nothing to bury it in at the top. Next we spent time trying to figure out how to get the hook to release. We tried half-a-dozen methods before hitting upon one that worked. The problem is the hole you hook in is so deep that the hook binds when it starts to back out.

[CarpeyBiggs]

you, my friend, need a sandtrap. :haha:

[Iceaxe]

you, my friend, need a sandtrap. :haha:

Do they work without sand? Because there was none to be had. We had one bowling ball size rock, a cleanly scoured drainage and water to work with. I could have hauled up this snot type mud from down canyon that smelled bad and had dead bugs smashed into it, but that would have been hard work and I didn't want to touch that disease ridden stuff.

This is actually the first time I've ever had issues with getting a hook to release. Hooks are $10 and I could have just left one, no big deal, but that would have defeated part of the fun.

[CarpeyBiggs]

what'd you put in your potshot? the rock? is that rappel not in the video at all then? seems like there is plenty of sand around, but often times it has to be shuttled. true, harder with only a team of two people and only one potshot. how'd your buddies do that rappel before without leaving anything behind?

in the very near future, there will be a water option insert for the trap that's pretty reliable...

[Iceaxe]

The first group stuck their hook and had warned us that the anchor was an issue. At the end of the day they downclimbed the upper section of canyon to retrieve their hook. But those guys are also much better climbers than most canyoneers.

The rappel at 1:14 is the hook rappel. The only video I shot was from the bottom. You are stopped from retreating back upstream by the pothole Marc jumped along with a slide and upclimb. Just after the rappel is some mae west stuff where you are 30' up and it would be really hard to carry sand back up canyon over that. The potshot had a little bit of everything in it for some weight. Getting enough weight into the potshot was the biggest problem (the rock was slightly too big to fit). I was considering filling a dry bag with water and putting it in the potshot for weight if we need more.

I was also thinking about what I would do with a sand trap and no hooks, and the stuff I had with me. I guess I would have tried filling dry bags with water to weight the sand trap and than figure out a way to get it all to release. The pothole Marc jumped might also have had useable material at the bottom but we didn't feel like diving to the bottom to find out.

The hooks are a simple, easy and super light weight solution to many anchor issues. As I said, I've never had problems getting hooks to release before, usually its just a flip of the rope, but this time was different.

I'm sure their are other ways of ghosting this obstacale, we just used hooks.

[moab mark]

We ran into a very interesting rappel this past weekend that I thought some of you might be interested in.


We encountered a 35-foot rappel, with zero anchor building material in the area. No rocks, no sand, no place to dig, and we were blocked from returning up canyon.

So we rappeled from a Cliffhanger hook in a very solid placement. The biggest problem with this rappel is that the hook placement is so solid you can not get your hooks to release by flipping the rope after you complete your rappel.

So.... here is what we did... We tie one 50-foot rope to the hook to rappel from. We clipped a quick-link to the handles of a potshot. We placed the weighted potshot 3-feet behind (up canyon from) the hook. We tie the second 50-foot rope to the actual hook, ran the rope backwards, through the quick-link attached to the potshot, and than back over the edge to act as our pull chord. After the last man rappelled we tugged on the pull chord, which pulled the hook from its placement, snagged on the quick-link attached to the potshot, and allow us to pull the entire setup down.

Ghosting at its finest, next group through will find nothing but virgin slot. :cool2:


What hook are you usually using?

[Jaxx]

Another :2thumbs: for the sandtrap. We used it last month in Quandry and it was awesome!

[CarpeyBiggs]

so did they leave their rope behind?

no doubt there's plenty of ways to skin a cat. hooks in navajo sandstone don't inspire a lot of confidence for me, personally. but then again, i tend to be a little anchor shy. not sure i'd feel good about a biner-hueco-chock either. shame you've got no photos though, to think how much we could've benefitted from this analysis... :lol8:

[ratagonia]

What hook are you usually using?

He said a Cliffhanger, which is a BD product.

Hooks are not all that strong; Navajo sandstone is not all that strong especially to point pressure; hooks need to be used very carefully.

Tom :moses:

[Brian in SLC]

He said a Cliffhanger, which is a BD product.

Hooks are not all that strong...

Ever see any BD hook break from use? Leeper? Fish? Vermin? Salewa? Petzl? Kong? Etc. I've seen some bent Pika hooks (the long radius thin models), but, never seen one that straightened out to the point it was unusable. No way you'd bust their split tip bat hook.

Hooks are strong. Sandstone isn't.

[Iceaxe]

FWIW: I don't have a picture of our hook placement in Red Spur, but here is a picture I took of a hook we rappelled off of in Cable Canyon for discussion purposes. This hook released with a flip of the rope. Feel free to critique this picture until the cows come home. The hook is the same BD Cliffhanger we used in Red Spur.

45274

[ratagonia]

Ever see any BD hook break from use? Leeper? Fish? Vermin? Salewa? Petzl? Kong? Etc. I've seen some bent Pika hooks (the long radius thin models), but, never seen one that straightened out to the point it was unusable. No way you'd bust their split tip bat hook.

Hooks are strong. Sandstone isn't.

Wasn't talking about "break", but they do flex when they are weighted. Thus changing shape, thus they can blow out of the placement. They are intended for bodyweight, and do that fairly well. Rappelling softly recommended.

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

Rappelling softly recommended.

Which is probably good advise for most rappel anchors.

[moab mark]

FWIW: I don't have a picture of our hook placement in Red Spur, but here is a picture I took of a hook we rappelled off of in Cable Canyon for discussion purposes. This hook released with a flip of the rope. Feel free to critique this picture until the cows come home. The hook is the same BD Cliffhanger we used in Red Spur.

45274

I have never rappeled from a hook, so with that being said, I think I might have a few more warm fuzzies if it was set up with a biner block which in turn would allow someone on the ground to weight the pull side to keep everything nice and snug. Probably not a bad tool to haul just in case.

Mark

[oldno7]

I have never rappeled from a hook, so with that being said, I think I might have a few more warm fuzzies if it was set up with a biner block which in turn would allow someone on the ground to weight the pull side to keep everything nice and snug. Probably not a bad tool to haul just in case.

Mark

By doing what you said--you will apply double your weight in the hook. food for thought...........

[moab mark]

By doing what you said--you will apply double your weight in the hook. food for thought...........

I should of stated it a little clearer, I meant just hold down on the rope not hook in and hang. Get to work. OLD NO 7

[canyoncaver]

I should of stated it a little clearer, I meant just hold down on the rope not hook in and hang. Get to work. OLD NO 7

If the rope is anchored in any way at the bottom, (including just holding down on the rope), it still applies a 2 to 1 force on the anchor, probably not a good idea with most sandstone/hook placements. So oldno7 may not be workin' too hard, but he IS trying to help you out with some physics!

[ratagonia]

If the rope is anchored in any way at the bottom, (including just holding down on the rope), it still applies a 2 to 1 force on the anchor, probably not a good idea with most sandstone/hook placements. So oldno7 may not be workin' too hard, but he IS trying to help you out with some physics!

So, let me understand this voodoo physics here...

Mark clips the rope to the hook using a carabiner, and rappels on one strand, while on the other, I apply 5 lbs of downward force to hold the hook in place. Mysteriously, this creates a force of twice Mark's weight on the hook???

Via Quantum Tunnelling, perhaps?

T

[Iceaxe]

I don't consider Hooks as the answer for everything, they are just anther arrow in the quiver.

When doing difficult canyons, unexplored canyons, yada, yada I normally carry a BD Talon and a BD Cliffhanger. They are extremely light weight and inexpensive insurance, they can get you down a drop, out of a pothole, or up through a cliff band. I used to also carry a fifi hook but never used it so its now at the bottom of my gear bag.

Normally I like to clip a biner through the loop on the hook and than rappel double strand. That way if the hook will not release I can just pull my rope and be on my way light one hook. The picture shows a rope tied to the hook, which I seldom do. But I had Price along and figured he would just climb back up and get the hook if it wouldn't release as he is an very talented climber.

[ilipichicuma]

So, let me understand this voodoo physics here...

Mark clips the rope to the hook using a carabiner, and rappels on one strand, while on the other, I apply 5 lbs of downward force to hold the hook in place. Mysteriously, this creates a force of twice Mark's weight on the hook???

Via Quantum Tunnelling, perhaps?

T

Wormholes. I'm pretty sure it would be wormholes.

[moab mark]

in the very near future, there will be a water option insert for the trap that's pretty reliable...


I have seen a couple of prototypes has anyone seen the final product yet?
:popcorn:

[Bo_Beck]

If the rope is anchored in any way at the bottom, (including just holding down on the rope), it still applies a 2 to 1 force on the anchor, probably not a good idea with most sandstone/hook placements. So oldno7 may not be workin' too hard, but he IS trying to help you out with some physics!

If the rope were just passed thru the anchor and not blocked at the anchor, then you'd be correct. (1kn on each side of the rope=2kn at the anchor) It seems that he stated that he'd block the descent rope and have someone at the bottom hold with enough force on the pull side to prevent the hook from moving in case the rappel side were to become unweighted slightly momentarily?