Scout Leader Training Opportunity. [Archive]

Spidey

04-02-2011, 07:21 AM

I was told by a friend this was way to hard to find in the back of the other thread.

So for all you Scout Leaders out there, Thank You for all you do, and here you go.

Clark and I are offering a Scout Leader Training, on the 8th and 9th of April. It will be in Utah county.
Friday 9:00 a.m. - 5:00 p.m.ish
Saturday 9:00 a.m. - 5:00 p.m.ish

This is a 2-day Fast Track Course. The cost will be 195.00$

Clark and I are striving to give you the best bang for your buck possible. We, with others have gone through and identified the skills a Scout Leader needs. We have tried to take out the fluff, and just give you the meat. We will also give you as many tips and tricks as possible that we have learned from running a Venturing crew for 6 years. As well as tips and tricks that we have picked up during our time out with some of the godfather's of the sport.
We look forward to serving you, and helping you get out canyoneering with your boys, Safely.

On another note, for those interested. Clark is being made the climbing committee chairman for the NPC. I am on the climbing committee, and we are working with Rich Carlson, and Brandt Jones GSLC to put together a canyoneering policy for the NPC. We are striving to make it simple and concise, so as to provide an achievable end game for Scout Leaders. We will also be working on training opportunities, to make it as EASY as possible to get through the soon to be required training.
Thanks and we look forward to seeing you: Spidey

Please R.S.V.P. so we know how many to plan on. Thank You

Scott Card

04-04-2011, 11:37 AM

Woot! Another opportunity. Good on ya. :2thumbs:

DiscGo

04-04-2011, 11:40 AM

Spidey

04-04-2011, 02:08 PM

I am going camping this weekend and have most of my weekends booked about a month or two in advance right now (I've been busy) but I would love to do this same course. Is there a way to put my name on some sort of list to find out about this same type of course again in the future with more advanced notice?

Sure thing, I will make sure and announce our next one with more notice. We are trying to squeeze in as many as we can before the summer super activity season starts. Lots and lots of scout leaders need this. We hope to at least give all of them an opportunity for the training, before it becomes mandatory. P.m. Me and I will make sure and let you know individually as well. Looking forward to working with you.
Spidey

chabidiah

04-07-2011, 09:44 AM

did you guys ever decide on those who passed the last course with Rich and you???

Scott Card

04-07-2011, 10:20 AM

I don't know who was incharge of the testing. I was asked to assist Spidey and Clark who I believe were asked to assist ....? So, Rich may know but I believe it was actually Brant (Sp?) from the SLC council.

Jaxx

04-07-2011, 11:31 AM

Ya, I am pretty sure no one passed. Wasted day...

Scott Card

04-07-2011, 12:08 PM

Wasn't that "test" set up by the SLC Scout Council for those who thought they could pass the test (Climbing Leader??) w/o having done the classes? I am not bagging on anyone but I thought that was a test that was set up to challenge, in effect, the necessity to have to go through the training. In other words, pass the test, skip the training. Right? I know in my little sub-test (top rope belay) the instruction I was given was that if they let go their brake hand from the rope, they were to fail. Amazing how many folks put climbers at risk in that test by letting go of the rope with the brake hand. Just sayin....

So no one is confused, what Chabidiah and Jaxx are talking about (and I am responding to) is completly different from what Spidey is announcing above. Definitely not a wasted two days to take Spidey and Clark's class. :2thumbs:

Spidey

04-07-2011, 06:05 PM

Ya, I am pretty sure no one passed. Wasted day...

I would say it's only a wasted day if you didn't learn anything. Even if all you learned was that you need more training to comply with BSA standards, and after all it was Free.

That event was never advertised or intended as a COURSE. It was alway's nothing more than a test, as Scott mentioned it was a TEST OUT opportunity. The test was based entirely on BSA standards and administered much the same as the GSLC does theirs. It was organized by Rich as the NPC climbing committee chairman.

Brandt as a climbing director from GSLC was given approval by his council to pass and give those outside his jurisdiction climbing instructor status if they passed the test. Mind you that was a one time exemption. Why did Brandt need that exemption? At the moment our council has only one Director in Blanding. I hope Brandt will jump in and correct any details I missed.

It is not likely to be more than 6 months or so, and NPC will have a policy that is very similar to GSLC regarding canyoneering. As for climbing there is already a policy from National.

As I mentioned in my first post, it won't be long before this type of training and testing is mandatory. We are offering these courses for those that want to avoid a disruption in their activities. In the GSLC when you turn in your tour plan, if you don't have a certified climbing instructor listed you don't go until you have one. It's pretty much that simple.

GSLC toughened up on enforcing existing policies after they had a fatality. I am inclined to take Brandt's advice, and avoid having that be the reason why we finally start enforcing them.

Of course there is alway's another option. You can hire a professional guide for your canyon and/or climbing trips. Those are also the 2 options given in the first presidency letter of last June.

FWIW: Spidey

Spidey

05-18-2011, 07:09 PM

There will be another Scout Leader training opportunity you can p.m. me or find details here. http://www.meetup.com/BSA-ClimbingCanyoneering/

Jaxx

05-19-2011, 09:00 AM

I never meant to imply that Spidey's courses will be a wasted day. From the little exposure I had to Clark and Spidey I would say the classes are going to be top notch.

The test out of class was a few months ago was totally set up for people to fail. There is no way anyone could have passed both the skills and written test. The Council has decided to make it rediculously difficult, time consuming, and expensive to take boys to do anything with ropes. That is of course my personal opinion.

moab mark

05-19-2011, 09:35 AM

Spidey

05-19-2011, 10:47 AM

Can you give us an idea of what the skills and written test consisted of?

Both the written and skills tests were taken from the BSA Topping Out manual. None of us that helped with the test had any desire that it be a no win situation. It was however a test, essentially the same test used most other places nation wide as far a my understanding. I hope Brandt will step in here and fill in some of the blanks. As far as there being no way anyone could have passed. :ne_nau: Lot's of guys in the GSLC have passed that exact same test. FWIW

Jaxx

05-20-2011, 09:55 AM

Can you give us an idea of what the skills and written test consisted of?

The skills test wasn't bad. Atleast I didn't kill anyone! It consisted of 5 stations. Knots, gear (naming different types of gear ie hangers, bolts, tools, cams, nuts, rapide and knowing how to inspect the gear), anchor building (off bolts and natural), belaying someone who is top rope climbing, getting someone who is stuck on a rap-you are above belaying them. Fairly easy. The hard part about it is that you weren't being tested on your skills, you were being tested on how well you could do it the "BSA way." It didn't matter if something was ok to do. If you didn't do it the recommended way it was a fail.
The way the BSA wants you to belay a top roper is pretty ridiculous. You cannot move your belay hand off the rope at all ever. Even if you move your other hand over to hold the rope while you are moving your main belay hand up to "reset." You have to keep your hand gripped around the rope and slide it up to reset. It is very inefficient and slow. You could not belay a fast climber with their method.
The way I would describe the written test is redonkulous. It has about 60 questions and they are detailed. I did ok just reading through the book the night before but you need to know definitions and pretty much memorize the book. It isn't impossible but you really have to know the book to pass the written test. The written test has almost nothing to do with skills knowledge.
There was definitely a heavy influence by the BSA's lawyers when Topping out was put together. No offense Mr. Card:haha:

It really wouldn't be that hard to actually pass the class. The problem is that you have to have atleast 3 guys that have gone through the class to take boys (per required leaders to others ratio). That is nearly impossible for my area. The solution was to call other leaders from other troops and have them help with your outing. I don't know about others but my wife would not be happy if I was getting calls to help other troops throughout the summer taking up our weekends together. I have decided it isn't worth the hassle for me and my boys will suffer because of it but I'm not willing to put up the time or money to take them. It is a bummer because it takes almost no skill to belay a top roping scout. We had a trip for Maple Canyon planned this year that we cancelled. I would rather just go with my family anyway.

I in no way am trying to bash Spidey, Clark, Rich or anyone else that put on the class. They were all super helpful/friendly/knowledgeable. There hands are tied by what the BSA requires. It was cool of them to offer a one time class. If I was willing to take the time to take the boys on rope related activities then I would def. take Spidey's class. Him and Clark are top notch guys. I just don't care about the scouts enough :roflol:

Spidey

05-20-2011, 01:18 PM

A lot of the BSA reg's are difficult to understand and sometimes even harder to follow. I feel your pain on that issue for sure, as well as their ratio's are nearly impossible at this time for any of us to adhere to. We hope that we can get our council to adopt policies and regulations that will be more applicable to canyons. Whether or not the council will listen is another thing. For climbing the national office already has those policies in place, so for now there's no changing them. Their policies are definitely written from a liability stand point. The problem for those of us that would like to help scouts is this. If we don't follow their regulations we are not covered by their insurance, or at least that's my basic understanding. So for those of us that want to help it definitely makes it difficult. No easy answers I'm afraid, if there are I certainly don't have them.

Clark and I are simply trying to provide training that will help to avoid a disaster waiting to happen. That's our concern any way, with the # of units canyoneering in our council a Fatality is a foregone conclusion with out more training. FWIW

ratagonia

05-23-2011, 08:36 AM

It is a bummer because it takes almost no skill to belay a top roping scout.

I think the program is better off without Jaxx as a leader.

Tom :moses:

Jaxx

05-23-2011, 09:27 AM

I think the program is better off without Jaxx as a leader.

Tom :moses:

So you think it is more like rocket science belaying a beginning and extremely slow climbing boy scout? Ages range from 12-14. Why the hate Tom?

I guess we will disagree on this one. Belaying a good climber takes ALOT more skill with handwork/ropework. Of course in my always humble opinion. :bootyshake:

ratagonia

05-23-2011, 09:55 AM

So you think it is more like rocket science belaying a beginning and extremely slow climbing boy scout? Ages range from 12-14. Why the hate Tom?

I guess we will disagree on this one. Belaying a good climber takes ALOT more skill with handwork/ropework. Of course in my always humble opinion. :bootyshake:

Perhaps I was a bit over the top there, trying to bring wry succinctness while bumping the thread. Eschew obfuscation, I always say.

It is a bummer because it takes almost no skill to belay a top roping scout.

But to the point: it requires skill to do that task. Maybe not as much as brain surgery or cooking a fine paella, but it takes a set of skills, and you have some kid's health and safety under your wing, so you better have those skills.

Look Jaxx, I know you think your skill level is really high, and any indications otherwise must be wrong, deceitful or the test too difficult. Maybe, just maybe, the more useful takeaway from that test would be that your skill level is not so hot.

If I was running the program, and I had an adult "leader" that blamed outside forces for his own failures, I would get that "leader" out of the program as fast as possible. Taking responsibility for your OWN actions is the first step in taking on the responsibilities associated with taking other parent's kids out into the wild.

Sorry Jaxx, I'd like to say that I am JUST reacting to your statement, and not to you, but... I am reacting to your statement, the other statements in your post, and your childish defense of your statement. Maybe you are like Dr. Jeckl and Mr. Iceaxe, with a different, abrasive personality on the Interwebs (Dr. Jones and Mr. Ratagonia?) - but your personality as revealed in this thread is not conducive to taking on the grave responsibility of having other people's kid's safety in your hands.

Tom :moses:

ratagonia

05-23-2011, 10:12 AM

If we don't follow their regulations we are not covered by their insurance, or at least that's my basic understanding.

Yes, and there are substantial consequences to this. Have an accident of the wrong type, you are your family could be bankrupt and living in Uncle Ernie's basement. But there's more. What about the Bishop who knew you were shading the rules, but thought everything would work out. He has liability too. The other leaders on the trip? Some liability. The facility, if private?

And what about moral responsibility? I'm not fully versed in LDS theology, but it seems there is an emphasis on following the rules. Not following the rules is cheating. Does not cheating have spiritual consequences?

So, it is not a little thing to be "not covered by the insurance". It is a big thing.

But, taking a step back, having other people's kids lives in your hands is a big responsibility. I am a guide, and I do this, and I take it very seriously. I want to know that I have the training I need - canyoneering, guiding and medical - to both make the possibility of something bad happening as remote as possible, and that I had the training to deal with the consequences as well as possible. If an objective test indicated that my skill set was not up to snuff, I would take that very seriously. Being covered by insurance is one of those objective tests. I would never guide people without a pretty darn good insurance policy at my back.

Tom :moses:

oldno7

05-23-2011, 10:47 AM

And the problem continues----while accidents are few(for the time being) Overstating ones skills is common ground.
Having a "real" skillset is paramount to overcoming most canyon conditions. "Thinking" you have a "real" skillset only works on the internet, in real life, people can die from a lack thereof.
I need more, and I hope most are willing to accept this reality also.

Hopefully the BSA will get some clear,meaningful,consistant,unchanging guidlines to work with. Doesn't sound to good at present.

Jaxx

05-23-2011, 11:07 AM

Perhaps I was a bit over the top there, trying to bring wry succinctness while bumping the thread. Eschew obfuscation, I always say.

But to the point: it requires skill to do that task. Maybe not as much as brain surgery or cooking a fine paella, but it takes a set of skills, and you have some kid's health and safety under your wing, so you better have those skills.

I agree. I guess we disagree on how hard it is to belay. Just because it is easy (for me) doesn't mean I don't take it seriously. That is a pretty big jump to make.

Look Jaxx, I know you think your skill level is really high, and any indications otherwise must be wrong, deceitful or the test too difficult. Maybe, just maybe, the more useful takeaway from that test would be that your skill level is not so hot.

Hmmm. I don't remember saying that my skill level was really high. I actually have never said that on this forum. If you can find it somewhere I will give you the better part of a dollar.
I was a little chaffed because I spent a weekend at a class that I failed. Instead of with my family. When I posted my first post I was being dramatic about it being a waste. I actually did learn a bunch of stuff from the class that will be helpful and I will use when I go with friends and family.
I always have the mindset that I suck and I need more learnings about stuff :crazy:

If I was running the program, and I had an adult "leader" that blamed outside forces for his own failures, I would get that "leader" out of the program as fast as possible.Taking responsibility for your OWN actions is the first step in taking on the responsibilities associated with taking other parent's kids out into the wild.

I didn't blame outside forces. I voiced one concern on technique required by the BSA on belaying a top roping climber. I didn't fail that test, just fyi. I am sure they have the rule so it is easy for people that are brand new to belaying. Mabey their way makes it easier to concentrate on the climber rather than your own hands while belaying, mabey.
It doesn't mean every other way of doing it is going to kill someone. That is all I was trying to get across. Words are hard.

I actually did ok on my skills tests. Do I need improvement? Yes of course! I by no means think I am the end all of canyoneering/climbing knowledge. I have never claimed anything remotely close to that. The skills aren't that hard to grasp. The hard thing for me during those tests was knowing what the BSA required you to do. I could rig something that would work but it might not be the way the BSA required it. So skills wasn't my downfall per se, more had to do with the BSA way to do it. I didn't know that like I should have. That doesn't mean I didn't know some of the skills in the test. Because I flat out did some things incorrectly.
I do admit to miserable failure on my written test. Also because of me and not any other factor. I didn't realize that it was a get in there and test. I thought there would be some discussion on what things were going to be required. I was wrong. No ones fault but mine.

Sorry Jaxx, I'd like to say that I am JUST reacting to your statement, and not to you, but... I am reacting to your statement, the other statements in your post, and your childish defense of your statement. Maybe you are like Dr. Jeckl and Mr. Iceaxe, with a different, abrasive personality on the Interwebs (Dr. Jones and Mr. Ratagonia?) - but your personality as revealed in this thread is not conducive to taking on the grave responsibility of having other people's kid's safety in your hands.

Jumping to that conclusion from a couple of posts seems pretty childish to me. I know you like to stir things up though. Mabey you were reading into my post too much.

Here is a general summary of how I feel about the new rules for scout leaders: I just don't care enough about the scouts learning, or having the experiences of, climbing and canyoneering to pay $200 out of my own pocket and take a weekend of my time to pass a class to take them climbing and canyoneering. I would rather just go canyoneering that weekend!

As I said above, the class wouldn't be that hard if you actually studied the manual for it if you have some canyoneering or climbing experience.
Even if you didn't study and you just take Spidey's class I am sure most people would pass it. Clark and Spidey are excellent teachers. They explain things extremely well and clearly. They have a vast amount of knowledge on the subject.
I am not blaming them for any of my shortfalls in knowledge or skills. I just want to make that clear (again).

Jaxx

05-23-2011, 11:11 AM

One thing I didn't mention is that you could just hire a guide to take your scouts. That will be the way my troop is doing it now. I believe Clark and Spidey do guide now so you could send him a PM on prices, availability, etc.

Scott Card

05-23-2011, 11:12 AM

One point of clarification Jaxx. I don't think it was a "class" you attended, at least the day I was there. It was a test to avoid having to go through the classes.

Iceaxe

05-23-2011, 11:17 AM

I think the program is better off without Jaxx as a leader.

Don't shoot the messenger!

I found Jaxx's critique to be thoughtful, informational and well written. Maybe the BSA could learn something from listening to the opinion of someone who has taken the course.

I'd trust my kids with Jaxx long before I'd trust them with a couple other merit badge holders I can think of.... YMMV.

Jaxx

05-23-2011, 11:34 AM

One point of clarification Jaxx. I don't think it was a "class" you attended, at least the day I was there. It was a test to avoid having to go through the classes.

Ya I wasn't very clear on that. Once I got there I figured that out! It was awesome that they even gave us the change to just test out.

Don't shoot the messenger!

I found Jaxx's critique to be thoughtful, informational and well written. Maybe the BSA could learn something from listening to the opinion of someone who has taken the course.

I'd trust my kids with Jaxx long before I'd trust them with a couple other merit badge holders I can think of.... YMMV.

Thanks Ice! But that might not mean that much as I think of some of the leaders I have run into :haha:

ratagonia

05-23-2011, 12:29 PM

I agree. I guess we disagree on how hard it is to belay. Just because it is easy (for me) doesn't mean I don't take it seriously. That is a pretty big jump to make.

It is very clear I read way too much into your post, Jaxx, and I apologize for jumping off the deep end with it, and you in tow. Thank you for your understanding (and thank you for knowing I am a deep-end-jumping-kinda guy, and not taking personal offense).

Yes, belaying a 60 lb beginning climber on a well-controlled top rope with a fat rope, climbing slowly, is easy. Until something other than that happens, in which case it is less-easy. When I belay, lead or toprope, my right hand leaves the rope to jump back under my left on each stroke, but I always have a brakehand on the rope. This is normal, it is unfortunate that the BSA rule-makers did not make their rule to accommodate the way belaying is normally done, but went for a "safer" version, which is probably functionally less safe.

Many of your points I agree with. At ZAC, Jonathan is a very good leader and we have very few hard-and-fast rules except this: keep people safe. Most of us guides do things pretty much the same way, but we are blessed not to have hard-and-fast rules that we must follow. The BSA however must be an organization of rules, many of which do not make much sense when applied in the field. The local BSA types are aware of this, thus the development of the local BSA canyoneering program, which is trying to develop a set of rules that will actually work in the field, AND satisfy the cadre of hand-wringing lawyers back at National who have little idea of what going down a canyon actually looks like.

Tom :moses:

Spidey

05-23-2011, 12:36 PM

Lot's of misconceptions and misunderstanding's running rampant in this thread

The so called course that has been the source of controversy, is the first. This was never a course nor was it advertised as such. It was advertised as a UNPC Climbing Instructor Certification Exam, those were the exact words. My apologies FWIW to anyone who thought it was going to be a course.

The second would be that the BSA lacks a clear policy or regulations. When it comes to climbing there is a clear set of policies and regulations, this is what national recognizes. Right or wrong this is also what governs Canyoneering, because it involves ropes, and being off the ground. This is where we can have an impact and get a policy and Regulations specific to Canyoneering. GSLC has taken the lead on this, and it will be up to each to council to adopt and implement Canyoneering policies as they see fit. National is leaving it to the councils. This is my understanding.

Third, who is qualified to take boys? At unit or District level you are supposed to be a certified BSA climbing instructor. At a council level, you are required to be a BSA climbing Director. To become a climbing director it requires you go to 6 day Camp school. To become a climbing instructor you will have to attend a 3 day course taught by a Climbing Director.
GSLC is currently enforcing these requirements. UNPC is not, they are essentially turning a blind eye to any requirements. This is a catastrophe waiting to happen IMHO.

FWIW, Any outfit in the UNPC offering BSA certification at this time is LYING:nono: Including some in Provo and Orem. Some have been given cease and desist notices. Clark and I are working with others to get a clear succinct policy for canyoneering the UNPC will adopt, we welcome any constructive input from any sources.

Fourth, the much maligned method required for belaying a climber? This is actually the method taught by climbing gyms nationwide, and the AMGA. Some may recognize it some may not. It is the PBUS method, Pull, Brake, Under, Slide. This is the preferred method by all training organizations at this point as far as I know. So that should end that debate.

As for mine and Clark's course we are simply trying to help Scout Leader's and the council avoid disaster in whatever way we can, until the UNPC adopts a canyoneering policy, and starts enforcing it's current policy's.
Our desire come's from our years as Scout Leader's ourselves. We both constantly sought after more and more additional training, even given our level of past experience. The reason for this should be the same for everyone, we took our responsibility very seriously. There was absolutely no way I was going to have to come home and try to explain why this or that went wrong, and by the way your sons in the hospital or worse Dead. I've never met a scout leader who didn't need training, or at least benefit from additional training, including myself.

The Canyoneering training we provide in our course will have those who take it prepared to pass the canyoneering exam when it is put in place in the next few months.:2thumbs:

I'm sure I've said more than enough. FWIW I find many of the BSA national regulations ridiculous and near impossible to adhere to just like a lot of other's. However after having gone out and gotten insurance and permits for my own guiding endeavors. I very fully agree with their right and obligation to require anyone operating under their insurance and title to follow their policy's and regulations or not go. Especially since there are several options to meet their criteria.
1. Hire a guide with their own insurance etc. etc.
2. Go through the BSA training, I.E. Camp school or an instructor course taught by a director.
3. Go through another nationally recognized training organization I.E. the AMGA, or ACA as well as a couple other's.
4. Go get your own Liability insurance

I'm far from an expert on BSA Regs, Brandt Jones would be the better one to ask on a lot of this, although I believe I answered everything correctly. We look forward to teaching and helping as many of you as possible get out with your boys and return safely.
Spidey

tcott

05-24-2011, 07:29 AM

4. Go get your own Liability insurance

Any idea where to get liability insurance that specifically covers caynoneering with scouts?

Spidey

05-24-2011, 08:09 AM

Any idea where to get liability insurance that specifically covers caynoneering with scouts?

Easiest place to start would be to call your local insurance broker, they should be able to connect you with a broker that handles that type of insurance.

Keep in mind that once you make that shift you become a guide and have even more responsibility, also you will need permits. Some of that could be up for debate.

It would be astronomically less expensive to get the necessary training and be covered under BSA insurance. :ne_nau:

bbjones

05-24-2011, 11:51 AM

I am the Cope/Climbing Committee chairman for the Great Salt Lake Council, BSA (GSLC).

In early May, BSA released a new copy of Climb On Safely: A Guide to Unit Climbing and Rappelling.

Climb On Safely training does not qualify a person to function as a

bbjones

05-24-2011, 12:11 PM

Duplicate post

moab mark

05-25-2011, 05:47 PM

Spidey

05-26-2011, 01:02 PM

Brandt,

Do you have or do you know where it is available what the requirements are to become a BSA Climbing Director or Lead Instructor? From reading the part of the letter from the Church it sounds like regardless of BSA regulations the Church will be requiring a trained licensed guide. If this is the case aren't we just spinning our wheels?

Mark

Hey Mark, you can become a BSA climbing director by attending national Camp school this is a 6-day course, they recently held one in Salt Lake City. A climbing director can give a Lead climbing instructor course. It is supposed to be 3 day's for an experienced climber, and 5-6 day's for a novice climber.

As for the First presidency letter, hiring a guide is one option that they approve of. The other is to follow the BSA High adventure guide lines. I believe Brandt covered those guide lines in his post.

What I take from the First presidency's letter is that they are expecting leader's to start taking their responsibility seriously. Which to this point i would say most have not, including some I know. Considering the church is most likely second in line from a liability stand point, I would say it's long over due, and very understandable.

ratagonia

05-26-2011, 01:24 PM

On March 1, 2011, the LDS First Presidency released (again) a letter to Stake Presidents and Bishops and others, reaffirming safety guidelines for activities for members. In the letter it states that activities such as rock climbing (interpreted by the LDS risk management department to include climbing, rappelling and canyoneering) “should not be undertaken unless lead by trained and licensed guides…”

Brandt

Yeah, ahem.

I am a trained guide, a professional, and I have a driver's license. I am not sure there IS such a thing as a "licensed guide", since licensing is done by government agencies, and there are no government agencies that license climbing or canyoneering guides.

So, ahem, the wording on this is probably not actually what they meant. Any chance of pointing that out, Brandt, or getting an interpretation on that?

All it takes to hang out a shingle as a Canyoneering Guide is a shingle, which are available at Home Depot for not much money. All people who would hang out that shingle would consider themselves "trained" I hope, but it does not mean that WE would consider them trained. There was a time when we thought the ACA Certification would fulfill the role of sorting the wheat from the chaff, but the political play involved has pretty much nixed that idea, so we are left with not much meaning to this rule.

Thus, my conclusion has to be, that there is not any way to comply with these requirements. Is it possible to have a BSA activity that is not a member activity, when the troop is sponsored by an LDS Stake?

Tom :moses:

Deathcricket

05-26-2011, 05:04 PM

I think the program is better off without Jaxx as a leader.

Tom :moses:

Good thing I got to this thread to settle the argument. Phew... My skills as a peacemaker are known far and wide. I think you are mistaken sir! Although you have credentials and huge muscles to flex as evidenced by this picture. You clearly do not have a bottle of liquid sunshine. Therefore Jaxx is clearly competent to lead. I present the proof.

44719

moab mark

05-26-2011, 06:34 PM

Hey Mark, you can become a BSA climbing director by attending national Camp school this is a 6-day course, they recently held one in Salt Lake City. A climbing director can give a Lead climbing instructor course. It is supposed to be 3 day's for an experienced climber, and 5-6 day's for a novice climber.

As for the First presidency letter, hiring a guide is one option that they approve of. The other is to follow the BSA High adventure guide lines. I believe Brandt covered those guide lines in his post.

What I take from the First presidency's letter is that they are expecting leader's to start taking their responsibility seriously. Which to this point i would say most have not, including some I know. Considering the church is most likely second in line from a liability stand point, I would say it's long over due, and very understandable.
Spidey I am not trying to rock the boat and Brandt will probably have the answer to this, but has BSA checked to see if the new Climb on Canyoneering program qualifies with the Church? After Brandt's post I walked over to the Bishops house and asked him about the letter. He said that all it stated as he could remember is they had to be trained guides. Nothing about BSA training, basically what is posted above. He interpreted that to mean we would need to hire a Canyoneering Guide to take the Scouts now. He squashed a small activity that was being planned because of the letter.

Tom,

I am not in Scout's right now but as I recall if we went as a Scout Troop we fell under the rules of the Church. If we went as Dads and Boys then we were on our own.

Mark

Mark

airman

05-26-2011, 09:25 PM

I haven't seen the March letter, but the June 2010 letter that was posted in the Scouting and Canyoneering (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?44583-Scouting-amp-Canyoneering) thread said:

"Activities that pose greater risk, such as white-water rafting or rock climbing, should not be undertaken unless led by trained and licensed guides, or in conjunction with Scouting High Adventure programs."

I'm not sure if Brandt intentionally omitted the "or in conjunction with Scouting High Adventure programs" or if it was dropped in the March letter. Brandt? Good point on the "licensed guides," Tom.

I for one fully support and am grateful for the efforts of Brandt and many others to raise the level of training and accountability when it comes to Scouting and Canyoneering. It is nice to finally have clear guidelines.

I have taken 14-18 year old boys through the Subway almost every year for over 15 years. It has been an incredible experience for them. It has been life-changing for some of the troubled boys I have worked with, especially those without fathers in the home.

Even though I fully support the effort, the new rules mean that I will no longer take boys through the Subway. At this point, two weeks of training seems like a lot when you only intend to go through the Subway, or Orderville. From a technical standpoint I don't see a lot of difference between the Subway (in normal conditions), Orderville, and Little Wild Horse, but the latter is acceptable without the training and the former canyons are not. I know it's hard to create uniform standards that fit every situation. That's why I fully support the effort, even though it doesn't fit my situation. And yes, I know there are other BSA Canyon Leaders that are available to take my boys through the Subway, but I think that's a lot to ask of someone who is already volunteering their time for their boys, especially when I am capable of doing so myself. I suspect I am not the only one that feels this way. I look forward to the further development of the program and hope that it will become more accessible without further burdening Brandt and those that are carrying a disproportionate load.

ratagonia

05-26-2011, 09:49 PM

Even though I fully support the effort, the new rules mean that I will no longer take boys through the Subway. At this point, two weeks of training seems like a lot when you only intend to go through the Subway, or Orderville. From a technical standpoint I don't see a lot of difference between the Subway (in normal conditions), Orderville, and Little Wild Horse, but the latter is acceptable without the training and the former canyons are not.

In the definitive book on the subject, Orderville is listed as an off-trail hike, rather than a technical canyon.

That said, to me, there is a substantial difference between Little Wildhorse and The Subway. One usually is done with a rope, and one without. An accident is either would be difficult, but it would be a LOT more difficult in The Subway. But then again, there is a crack rescue team in Zion.

Tom

Spidey

05-26-2011, 10:18 PM

Airman, I would imagine it was an accidental omission of Brandts to leave out the part about Scouting high Adventure Programs.

Tom makes an excellent point about the licensing issue. I'm sure this statement by the first presidency is just a lack of understanding on their part about the nuances of guiding credentials. While it should probably say, or be interpreted to mean Trained and Insured Guides. The verbiage might not be exactly right, the intent I think is quite clear. I would think that anyone who read it would get the idea. That being said it should be cleared up to avoid any ambiguity.

Airman, I will let Brandt speak for himself and the GSLC on this next issue. I can speak for Clark and Myself regarding the UNPC. When we were asked to help, and even now our whole goal is to make this as achievable as possible. While at the same time raising the level of training among the scout leaders dramatically. The level of skill and training among many of our scout leaders in this council is woefully inadequate. Maybe not for going out with themselves and their friends, but for being in the care of someone else's children then YES.

WE realize whole heartedly that we all mean well. WE really are working hard to make this a realistic and attainable goal for all those guys out there who mean well and are hard working. We are not trying to throw up road blocks. We are trying to keep boy's and leader's safe, under the onslaught of a sport that is catching on like wild fire in our council. We simply want to help everyone avoid a tragedy.

Airman, I also wouldn't sell yourself short. We will be offering a test out opportunity again in the future. With your level of competency who's to say you couldn't pass. I guess that depends on what council your in.

I am happy to answer any questions either on here or in a P.M. don't hesitate to ask. All we want to do is help.

airman

05-27-2011, 06:11 AM

Excellent points Tom & Spidey.

I'm in the GSLC. I applaud the efforts of both the UNPC and the GSLC. Thank you. I know you are making a huge personal sacrifice for the common good. My comments aren't in the spirit of criticizing the effort.

I agree that there are leaders out there that aren't properly qualified to take boys through canyons, even the Subway. I've seen them; it's quite frightening (no permits, no rope, no water, no helmets, etc.).

Again, I do not wish my comments in any way to be interpreted as not appreciating or supporting the effort. I do think it is worth pointing out that raising standards will necessarily result in the exclusion of some, even if they are qualified to do what they are doing. Is it worth it in the aggregate to prevent a tragedy? Absolutely. Are there people out there going way beyond the call of duty to make it happen? Yes, and I am grateful for them.

I hope to be able to complete the required training at some point in the future. I love being able to take boys through simple canyons. Even though I've done it for many years, I could always use more training.

With regard to my comparison of the Subway, Orderville, and Little Wild Horse, point taken.

Aarjonet

05-30-2011, 09:05 AM

Hi. I just registered and am somewhat new. I've been reading the threads because I'm an interested scouter who has taken scouts out on a number of climbing adventures. I recently became certified as a climbing director for BSA and the man in charge happen to be on the national committee that was writing the national standards. In regards to canyoneering, some of the committee members don't even know what it is. The standards are meant for very simple outings. Top rope climbing only, and basic rappelling. Anything more, they are avoiding. They simply say to get outside certification or hire a guide. Also and unfortunately, the standards are moving towards making climbing and cope courses follow pretty much the same rules. Oh, and by the way, I think having rules that BSA never changes, is never going to happen. Too many politics.

Redpb

05-30-2011, 12:35 PM

Good thing I got to this thread to settle the argument. Phew... My skills as a peacemaker are known far and wide. I think you are mistaken sir! Although you have credentials and huge muscles to flex as evidenced by this picture. You clearly do not have a bottle of liquid sunshine. Therefore Jaxx is clearly competent to lead. I present the proof.

I am newer to canyoneering thanks to Jaxx. I mean that in a good way, for introducing me to it. Jaxx and Chabidiah have taken me through several canyons now and I would trust them time and time again. They are competent and skilled in many aspects. I am not an expert so maybe I don't entirely understand what it takes to be, but I know they have gotten my ass out of a couple situations I got myself into. Seriously, thank you guys.
We just came off of a weekend in Quandary and I was amazed at the number of different techniques these two came up with to make the escapes and raps 'for practice' (I think were the words). I have yet to see a time either of these men slack, in the slightest, to keep me safe.

oldno7

05-31-2011, 06:30 AM

I am newer to canyoneering thanks to Jaxx. I mean that in a good way, for introducing me to it. Jaxx and Chabidiah have taken me through several canyons now and I would trust them time and time again. They are competent and skilled in many aspects. I am not an expert so maybe I don't entirely understand what it takes to be, but I know they have gotten my ass out of a couple situations I got myself into. Seriously, thank you guys.
We just came off of a weekend in Quandary and I was amazed at the number of different techniques these two came up with to make the escapes and raps 'for practice' (I think were the words). I have yet to see a time either of these men slack, in the slightest, to keep me safe.
I think most comments here about Nick and Chad are made tongue in cheek, 2 great guys in my book.
But that doesn't mean we will cut them any slack...................:mrgreen:

Jaxx

05-31-2011, 09:16 AM

Thanks guys for the kind words! I feel so loved.

I agree that there are leaders out there that aren't properly qualified to take boys through canyons, even the Subway. I've seen them; it's quite frightening (no permits, no rope, no water, no helmets, etc.).

I don't think these new rules will help scout leaders that are just completely clueless, read stupid. They probably don't have a tour permit (trip plan) filed with the council for approval. Unfortunately a few dumb people make the need to tighten the rules on everyone, like so many other things in life.

Deathcricket

05-31-2011, 10:42 AM

I am newer to canyoneering thanks to Jaxx. I mean that in a good way, for introducing me to it. Jaxx and Chabidiah have taken me through several canyons now and I would trust them time and time again. They are competent and skilled in many aspects. I am not an expert so maybe I don't entirely understand what it takes to be, but I know they have gotten my ass out of a couple situations I got myself into. Seriously, thank you guys.
We just came off of a weekend in Quandary and I was amazed at the number of different techniques these two came up with to make the escapes and raps 'for practice' (I think were the words). I have yet to see a time either of these men slack, in the slightest, to keep me safe.

I agree they are a good crew, one of the best I've been on. Even on this day Tom gave them as close to a compliment as I've seen him speak out. Oh, and we learned a stone knot so it was a win/win. :lol8: