Kelly Point, Grand Canyon

[tylerhirshfeld]

Has anyone been out to Kelly Point? Looking for some info for a trip out...

[Truman]

Hi,

when are you planning to go out ? We will be out there this year in september. I have some friends, which have been there a few times. For me it would be the first time. They are always telling, that it is very bumpy and that it was the last time they went out there :mrgreen:. If you need some more detailed information, I can ask them.

Chris

[tylerhirshfeld]

Hey Chris, I am not sure when I am going out but would really like to make the gruesome trip. It is out by Seperation Canyon, correct? I would like to do the hike to the river from there. Seperation Canyon is the last place that Powell saw three of his men before they vanished, and I think it would be an awesome trip. Any info is greatly appreciated. Thanks!!!

[Truman]

Hi,

I will ask our friends and let you know, if I get an answer.

Chris

[Truman]

Hi,

here the answer from our friend. He knows all the 4wd trails in the Arizona Strip region (but he is not an 'extended' hiker):

'Chris,

SeparationCanyon actually intersects the plateau between Amos Point and Blue Mountainwell north and west of Kelly Point - about 9 miles. The closest road access isprobably 2 miles from where the canyon hits the plateau. Hiking SeparationCanyon would be a difficult task. To my knowledge there is no established trailin that canyon. There may not be any reliable water sources in the canyon and Iestimate the canyon length to be about 10+ miles one way. Hiking it without a trailwould make it an even longer hike as you would have to work your way throughunknown obstacles. Getting off of the plateau into the canyon itself could be achallenge and could require climbing gear. Although I have never been to theactual site I have seen enough other areas to know that it could requireclimbing gear. An inquiry as to the feasibility of this hike to the NationalPark Service at the Grand Canyon would be a good first step as a permit wouldbe required, if they would approve it. '

I hope, this helps,

Chris

[denaliguide]

here's a map showing the kelly point area. the yellow lines are the late harvey butchart's routes in the area. i don't think rope work would be required, but keep in mind that route finding will still be interesting.


i agree water will be a challenge. there is supposed to be a spring in seperation, but it may have dried up since harvery was there. on the east side of kelly point, shanley spring in trail canyon is supposed to still be there.

43586

[Truman]

Hi,

I was out at Kelly Point two weeks ago. Absolute beautiful overlook and exciting trail to go out there.

Here two pictures, taken from Kelly Point:

48595

48594

[RedMan]

If you are planning to ride your four wheeler I dont recommend it. Its inside the park boundry and four wheeler are not allowed.

[CarpeyBiggs]

If you are planning to ride your four wheeler I dont recommend it. Its inside the park boundry and four wheeler are not allowed.

that's not true. they just have to be street legal. we use ATV's to get around out there on occasion, and been stopped by a few rangers too. just has to be legally licensed.

[RedMan]

that's not true. they just have to be street legal. we use ATV's to get around out there on occasion, and been stopped by a few rangers too. just has to be legally licensed.

Once again Biggs you are totally and utterly incompetant to speak on the subject at hand.

ATVs and UTVs are considered Class 2 vehicles and are expressly prohibited in all National Parks.
Street Legal has nothing to do with it. I have been told this by numerous levels of authority in the National Park service.
I researched it extensively when Utah passed the OHV street legal law.

One of my products is a street legal kit for ATVs and UTVs. I know what I'm talking about.

If you got away with it you are just lucky thats all.

BTW, the Rangers wish they could use ATVs. They can't for the same reason you can't.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Once again Biggs you are totally and utterly incompetant to speak on the subject at hand.

ATVs and UTVs are considered Class 2 vehicles and are expressly prohibited in all National Parks.
Street Legal has nothing to do with it. I have been told this by numerous levels of authority in the National Park service.
I researched it extensively when Utah passed the OHV street legal law.

One of my products is a street legal kit for ATVs and UTVs. I know what I'm talking about.

If you got away with it you are just lucky thats all.

BTW, the Rangers wish they could use ATVs. They can't for the same reason you can't.

true, i'm no expert, but i am certain it is legal to drive the roads out there on an ATV. especially considering the rangers out there actually drive a polaris ranger frequently... maybe an ATV is different from a polaris ranger by definition? at any rate, they are definitely legal in the GC as long as they are street legal and properly registered. however, i'm pretty sure they have to be registered and legal in Arizona, not in Utah.

[CarpeyBiggs]

from the NPS website - http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/tuweep.htm


Vehicles Must Stay on Open Roadways and in Parking Areas
OHVs (ATVs, Dirtbikes, UTVs, etc.) MUST be Highway/Street Legal. (Arizona requires MC plates - RV plate not valid.)
(Utah plate required - Utah registration stickers not valid.)

sorry for being so incompetent yet again... :ne_nau:

[RedMan]

What ever....genius.

For the rest of you I highly recommend you be careful about where you get your advice.
It may cost you a pretty serious citation and possibly and impound of your ATV.

[CarpeyBiggs]

What ever....genius.

For the rest of you I highly recommend you be careful about where you get your advice.
It may cost you a pretty serious citation and possibly and impound of your ATV.

dude, chill out. why you gotta be such a jackass? clearly, they are legal, the quote above is directly from the NPS website... i know this is your area of expertise and all, but you are wrong in this instance. sorry.

i've interacted with a handful of rangers in western grand canyon, both from the park, and from the monument, and there is no problem as long as they are registered properly. like i said earlier, the tuweep ranger actually drives an ATV when doing campground patrols, so you can deduce from that what you'd like.

if it is illegal, i'd be interested in seeing some documentation. i'll happily apologize for spreading misinformation if i'm wrong. but i am confident they are legal, and the park website seems to corroborate my experiences.

ymmv.

[Scott P]

Weird. The only ones suggesting the ATV use is legal are the SUWA members?!:crazycobasa:

Redman, are you sure?

Kelly Point is in the Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument rather than the Grand Canyon National Park. Unlike most National Monuments (but similar to the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument), the Grand Canyon-Parashant is administered by the BLM rather than the Department of the Interior. While allowable ATV riding is more or less prohibited in the vast majority of lands administered by the Department of the Interior, the BLM National Monuments are much more lenient.

I don’t know about the road to Kelly Point, but ATVs are used by commercial groups in other parts of the monument. All of the ATV trips offered by (for example) the Bar 10 Ranch are within the Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument :


http://www.bar10.com/activities.amp#2 (http://www.bar10.com/activities.amp#2)


http://www.bar10.com/images/activities_atv.jpg


In fact, the photograph above (from the website) is from the top of the Whitmore Trail which is in the same Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument. In recent years, whenever I have gone out there, there were ATV’s (commercial rafting groups also use them to pick up their clients at the top of the Whitmore Trail). Carpey is also right about the rangers being out there in ATV's as well.

The NPS website doesn’t mention Kelly Point specificially, but just says the following:


http://www.nps.gov/para/planyourvisit/index.htm

Note: It is illegal to drive any vehicle (including ATVs and bicycles) off designated roads.

You have me really curious since they are always out there and commercial tours are run very frequently within the monument. If it really is illegal, there is a lot of it going on.

Perhaps someone should call the BLM office which administers the monument (the BLM office in St. George administers the monument) for a clear answer:

Contact: Interagency Information Center located at 345 East Riverside Drive in St. George, UT; (435) 688-3200.

[nelsonccc]

Hi,

I was out at Kelly Point two weeks ago. Absolute beautiful overlook and exciting trail to go out there.

Here two pictures, taken from Kelly Point:

48595

48594

Cool pics. I just found this today and it's weird, cause I've been spending my time on the potty planning a 3 day dirt bike trip through Gold Butte, into the grand wash area (spend the night there), then the next day continue up to Oak Grove and Mt. Dellenbaugh and on out to Kelly Point. Return through Wolf hole and Elbow Canyon. I've spent a lot of time out on the strip and love it out there.

Also now that I have my new Grand Canyoneering book, I may try to station out new Fort Garrett and do Tincanbitts canyon or one of those over there. I love this time of year out there!

[nelsonccc]

What ever....genius.

For the rest of you I highly recommend you be careful about where you get your advice.
It may cost you a pretty serious citation and possibly and impound of your ATV.

For what it worth. I've camped at Tassi Spring near the old house and coral with our non-licensed dirt bikes before. We've ridden all over that area without being licensed. It's probably illegal within the monument but on a holiday weekend there will be tons of 4 wheelers out there all over the place, especially on the Devils cove side of the Grand Wash. Most of the 4x roads north and east of Fort Garrett are mostly traveled by 4 wheelers (at least judging by the tracks), especially all the little ones out to the rim. I've never seen a ranger out there and I'm out there at least 2-3 times a year during the winter. The only place I've seen a ranger is as you get closer to Toroweep. I've been all over the Bar 10 area and whitmore areas on my YZ250 and never saw anything that was licensed.

I do know better now, and that why I'll be on my licensed DR for this trip.

[CarpeyBiggs]

For what it worth. I've camped at Tassi Spring near the old house and coral with our non-licensed dirt bikes before. We've ridden all over that area without being licensed. It's probably illegal within the monument but on a holiday weekend there will be tons of 4 wheelers out there all over the place, especially on the Devils cove side of the Grand Wash. Most of the 4x roads north and east of Fort Garrett are mostly traveled by 4 wheelers (at least judging by the tracks), especially all the little ones out to the rim. I've never seen a ranger out there and I'm out there at least 2-3 times a year during the winter. The only place I've seen a ranger is as you get closer to Toroweep. I've been all over the Bar 10 area and whitmore areas on my YZ250 and never saw anything that was licensed.

I do know better now, and that why I'll be on my licensed DR for this trip.

yeah, i think the odds of running into a ranger are slim, but i still recommend being licensed. i (ahem... clears throat) got pulled over by the monument ranger about a month ago. we were fully licensed and set up properly though, so we went on our merry way. he just wanted to check to see if we were legit. the tailgate on the ranger was down and blocking the plate, so that's why he pulled us over, go figure. on the obscure roads though, i'd be surprised if they see more than a single vehicle in a week. maybe even a month.

and yes, rangers from both the park, and the monument have access to ATVs. when it's hunting season, they are even more active out there, looking for poachers...

[Truman]

Cool pics. I just found this today and it's weird, cause I've been spending my time on the potty planning a 3 day dirt bike trip through Gold Butte, into the grand wash area (spend the night there), then the next day continue up to Oak Grove and Mt. Dellenbaugh and on out to Kelly Point. Return through Wolf hole and Elbow Canyon. I've spent a lot of time out on the strip and love it out there.

Also now that I have my new Grand Canyoneering book, I may try to station out new Fort Garrett and do Tincanbitts canyon or one of those over there. I love this time of year out there!


That

[Sombeech]

http://www.bar10.com/activities.amp#2 (http://www.bar10.com/activities.amp#2)


http://www.bar10.com/images/activities_atv.jpg


In fact, the photograph above (from the website) is from the top of the Whitmore Trail which is in the same Grand Canyon-Parashant National Monument.

Just a side note, I don't really have any knowlegde about the ATV rules out there, but I would hope the commercial tours would supply helmets and other protective gear. That's a lot of liability for those machines. They should probably change that picture.

[CKWZK]

I used to work for the Grand Canyon Parashant National Monument. You are definitely allowed to ride street legal ATV's on the road out to Kelley Point, I have done it many times. It is a long bumpy road though, and we would carry extra fuel tanks.

Here is a photo of one of my coworkers on a 4 wheeler at the rim.

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[oldno7]

Welcome to bogley

very good information, thanks for sharing.

[oldno7]

a question--

Most atv's are not considered street legal, what was done to the one pictured to make it so?

[CarpeyBiggs]

for the ones we drive they had to have license plates, a horn, registration sticker, and a rear view mirror. there may be more too, can't recall everything.

[Sycamore]

here's a map showing the kelly point area. the yellow lines are the late harvey butchart's routes in the area. i don't think rope work would be required, but keep in mind that route finding will still be interesting.


i agree water will be a challenge. there is supposed to be a spring in seperation, but it may have dried up since harvery was there. on the east side of kelly point, shanley spring in trail canyon is supposed to still be there.

43586

that's a great map. anyone know how to get a harvey butchart overlay like that?

Sycamore

[Scott P]

I assume that he made it himself. I have a similar map, but mine was made before digital. I guess I really could scan it if you want, but it may take a while.

[Sycamore]

No thank you, but thanks for the offer. My guess is someone has already done it, as a shapefile, or .img file or something. Probably need to be projected, etc. I have a few contacts that might be able to help. Looks like Denali-Guide hasn't been on for a while.

Sycamore

[kiwi_outdoors]

Would it be OK for a 2008 Jeep Liberty 4x4 (we made it to Whitmore Overlook OK)

[Sycamore]

need high clearance, light truck (LT) tires and 2 spares (my recommendation). Twin point is a lot better road and shorter.

[kiwi_outdoors]

"Twin Point" ? Did your spell check get a hold of "Whitmore" and fix it for you?

The end of Whitmore is perfectly skanky for a significant distance - and we had to dig a rock out of the road in order to proceed.

Re needing LT tires - maybe on part of the end of the road to the top of Lava Falls (near Tuweep) only because some of the lava rock is extra crispy.

[Sycamore]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was recommending Twin Point over Kelly Point, because of the better road. I agree the end of Whitmore is pretty skanky.