SUGGESTIONS! For Coyote Buttes area

[abirken]

Hey everyone! I haven't posted on here in a while so HELLO to all you Bogleys. :mrgreen: I need your help and some suggestions. I have decided to head on down to the Coyote Buttes area on March 24-27th with my 7 year old for an adventure. After applying online several times over the last year for permits to hike The Wave (and being shot down), I have given up and am going to take my chances on a walk-in permit. I have to admit, I have some anxiety because I know if I don't obtain a walk-in permit, I will be bummed but I do understand the popularity of this special place. I am driving over 7 hours to get there so it would be cool if this went smoother than I feel it could be. I am going to try for both Friday and Saturday. So here are my questions:

1. If I get shot down on a walk-in for The Wave, what other hike should I do that is nearby that is easy to access? Meaning, no chances of getting stuck on a difficult road, in the sand. I do have an offroad Xterra but I am NOT a skilled 4x4 driver.

2. And what campground is close enough to the ranger station to make it easy to get there first thing in the morning? Everything seems pretty spread out.

The information on this area seems to be very vague online and it's hard to decipher what info is available. I am usually pretty capable of planning out my adventures without help, but this one is difficult for me for some reason.

Thanks! Your adventure challenged mommy.:wink:

[tanya]

There is a campground near the Wave but it is small - first come use.

There is a lot out there you can do. I like the Wahweap hoodoos and March is a good time to do it, while its cool out.

Check out the others on this page that are nearby. Camping info is in the middle column.

http://www.zionnational-park.com/coyote-buttes.htm

[abirken]

Thanks lady!!! Appreciate it. :2thumbs:

[tanya]

Anytime. :2thumbs:

[asdf]

I was down there two weeks ago, The state line campground looked brand new and had more spots then I had read about online... guessing it was recently refurbished. We camped 1 miles south from the campground in a primitive spot right off the road (the trail head for the notch route into the wave). But like you said this is pretty far from the rangers station.

The weather turned to complete shit while we were down there but lucky we had a plan B (softer hikes close to pavement) and plan C (sit in a hotel and bitch about the wind, sand, and flat light)... I guess I should start working on my trip report.

[accadacca]

sit in a hotel and bitch about the wind, sand, and flat light
:lol8:

[abirken]

I was down there two weeks ago, The state line campground looked brand new and had more spots then I had read about online... guessing it was recently refurbished.



Curious, was it full to capacity? Is that why you camped a mile down the road? What day of the week did you go? Bummer about the weather! Darn. :nod:

[mattandersao]

Just a quick 1/2 day hike into wirepass narrows is pretty fun and your 7 year old would love it!!! Same trailhead as Wave... There is one decent chockstone pile up but typically there are a bunch of rocks piled together in a staircase type scheme.

http://www.zionnational-park.com/buckskin-gulch.htm
http://www.americansouthwest.net/slot_canyons/wire_pass/canyon.html

(disclaimer: not sure on mud/ice/water levels at the end of march just depends on the weather between now and then i guess! )

[erial]

Believe there is a campground right at the ranger station. White House? Primitive camp spots can be found on side tracks off of House Rock Valley Road.

Easy hiking can be found across 89 from the station which will take you to views of rimrock hoodoos. A few miles further west on 89 past the ranger station and HRVR will be a road to the right that will take you to the townsite of Pahweah as well as the Paria movie set. Might be worth an hour or so of exploring. Camping should be available there as well.

The hike into the wirepass narrows could definitely be a blast. Matt mentions mud in Wirepass, but hey what 7 yr old wouldn't mind tromping thru that.

Taking a ride out on the road that passes thru Long Canyon could be a bit of a thrill. After a few miles you'll arrive at a trailhead for Cobra Arch and/or the hike down to a middle view/entrance of Buckskin. Last mile to the trailhead could, however, be very sandy in spots.

[mattandersao]

A couple more if you want to leave the Paria Vermilion cliffs N.M. and enter the grand staircase are Hackberry Narrows and Yellow Rock off Cottonwood Canyon road GSENM.

link (http://mattsamazingsouthernutah.blogspot.com/2010/06/yellow-rock.html) 1
link 2 (http://www.zionnational-park.com/gsfees.htm)

[asdf]

Curious, was it full to capacity? Is that why you camped a mile down the road? What day of the week did you go? Bummer about the weather! Darn. :nod:

The campground was empty, in fact we did not see anyone else camping along the house rock road. The sites in CG were all pretty small and we did not feel like paying for two of when there was perfectly good camping just down the road.
The Narrows in wire pass are pretty amazing and buckskin was a muddy mess. I think we went from the TH to buckskin and back in under 3 hours with lots of stops for photos.

Just posted a TR on my site ... bogley version should be up tomorrow. http://summit42.com/wp/coyote-buttes-2-2011

[abirken]

Man! You guys are so AWESOME! I really appreciate all the info..........going to look at your TR now Summit. You have made me feel better about going into the unknown. :haha::lol8:

[abirken]

http://summit42.com/wp/coyote-buttes-2-2011 Awesome TR!!! So I really like how you listed out your timing of arrival, getting walk in permits, setting up camp and still having time to go see part of Buck Skin G the night before. I may attempt that same "itinerary" and possibly try for a walk in permit the night before. I just have to plan out :2thumbs:my drive time, etc.......

[Bobuddy]

Summit - nice trip report and great pictures. Glad you made it out of HRVR in time before the mud and snow mess!

[jdgibney]

I hope you get permits, it was a great hike for us in January, and I can't wait to get back there and see more of the area! It'll be a wonderful adventure for you and your little one!

[lofty]

WE managed to score wave tickets on our second day april 5th three years ago... They will physically lock the door at 9 am when the draw takes place.

Coyote buttes South.. pretty Swirls and butes... maybe not quite as nice as the wave but still nice to look at and fun to play on. No lottery but there is a daily quota. Get the permit as soon as the draw for the wave is over ( and you didn't win ) for the following day... a lot of people know about the south butes and if you wait until the day off you might be out of luck. I would probably go to the ranger station as soon as you arrive in the evening and see if they have tickets for the following day, then line up for the wave draw in the morning and head over to the south buttes after....and with luck you have wave tickets for the next day in your pocket ... we did the Paw Holes only bc the rest of the road appears too sandy. I drive a pathfinder and would have easily made it to the Paw Holes Parking, but my girlfriends car only made it up 1/2way before the rougher sections ( at the big bend on zion map below ) .....no big deal... we walked it in under 1 hr having gained most of the elevation by car. We got detailed GPS waypoints with our permit...which were helpful


my pictures :http://www.flickr.com/photos/anja1/3612663055/in/set-72157619447267999/

http://www.zionnational-park.com/coyote-butte.htm for more pics and details


Yellow Rock----also a fun scramble to an amazingly colored mountain... definately a kid big or small would have fun playing on.

Toadstools... a wee bit down the road from the ranger station and 1.5 miles in from the road.... a quick stroll to some fun toadstools.

WE saw people camp down by he Pariah Movie Set as well

[abirken]

LOFTY- GREAT INFO!!!!! Thanks so so so much......

[homerj]

Just a quick 1/2 day hike into wirepass narrows is pretty fun and your 7 year old would love it!!! Same trailhead as Wave... There is one decent chockstone pile up but typically there are a bunch of rocks piled together in a staircase type scheme.


Definitely hike wire pass! I was just down there two weeks ago and we hiked it! If I remember right there was two chokestones you had to drop off of (about 4-5'), but both had a pile of rocks at the bottom to help. The buckskin was flowing so we didn't go up or down the buckskin from the confluence.

We had permits to CBS and was able to drive to paw hole with only two-wheel drive... We were in a 4x4 truck, but the 4-wheel drive had gone out.... Luckily we made it. You can read my friends TR all about it here: http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?49036-Vermilion-Cliffs-South-Coyote-Buttes-3-2-2011&highlight=coyote

Have fun!

[abirken]

Definitely hike wire pass! I was just down there two weeks ago and we hiked it! If I remember right there was two chokestones you had to drop off of (about 4-5'), but both had a pile of rocks at the bottom to help. The buckskin was flowing so we didn't go up or down the buckskin from the confluence.

We had permits to CBS and was able to drive to paw hole with only two-wheel drive... We were in a 4x4 truck, but the 4-wheel drive had gone out.... Luckily we made it. You can read my friends TR all about it here: http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?49036-Vermilion-Cliffs-South-Coyote-Buttes-3-2-2011&highlight=coyote

Have fun!

So the chances of Buckskin still flowing could be a potential then? :cry1: :eek2: I guess all we can do is get down there and see what conditions are like. My fear is going all that way (8 hours) to not be able to hike CBN or Buckskin. I do know there is so much more to see but these would be on my preference list since I'm not sure if I'd get back down this way anytime soon. So your camp site looks super awesome! I want to know where it's at.

[akavalun]

Even though sometimes it can be a zoo, you really should see Antelope canyon, and my vote is for lower. This is still the off season, so visitor traffic should be somewhat low, especially if you go on a weekday. Upper has the famous light beams, which never really interested me, but lower has some beams as well, and is a much more interesting, and fun for the little one with the ladders. Plus you get to spend as much time as you want rather than just a quick 45 minute tour.

If you want to avoid the sand going into CBS, take the corral valley road approach. When you are at the paria ranger station, they can point that route out to you. It will bring you into the cottonwood cove area which is much more interesting than paw hole. If the sand is fairly well compacted, you could head to white pocket. But that drive can be a little nerve racking even for me sometimes. Wahweap hoodoos are great this time of year with side lighting at sunrise and that is usually an easy drive to within 1 mile of them from the west, and a great place to camp. Of course everyone has already mentioned wire pass and buckskin. You could also head out to Stud horse point. A great place to camp for a beautiful sunrise. Horseshoe bend is also an easy and worthwhile side trip. The whitehouse campground will be your closest established camping place, but you can pretty much camp anywhere on BLM land.

[abirken]

At akavalun- Thanks so much! Printing out everything you mentioned and placing it in my "research notebook". I love the details you give of where the sunrise looks awesome, etc.....great info!!!:2thumbs::haha:

[jdgibney]

I'll second lower antelope and Horseshoe Bend (first day of my wicked quick trip out there in January)
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?45522-Quick-3-day-trip-through-Page-Kanab-Vegas
I think someone mentioned that the access from the west to the Wahweap Hoodoos is now closed to traffic, but I can't confirm that.

I can't wait to get back to CBN, and also explore CBS, hopefully within a year or so!

[Richie]

I love the area around Page!

About Campgrounds:
If you look for a campground near the Ranger Station you have to stay at Whitehouse Campground (Primitive Campground). This one is just minutes away from the Paria Contact Station where the lottery takes place. The Stateline Campground you have to choose if you want a campground near the trailhead. For the lottery it's the wrong place.

If you don't have the luck to get a permit my second choice would be trying to get a permit for South Coyote Buttes (Cottonwood Cove) or to head for White Pocket. In my personal opinion both place are almost more beautiful than the Wave. The problem: With no experience how to drive in deep sand it's not a good idea to go there (This is the reason why we booked a guided tour with Steve from Paria Outpost - which is $175 per person).

Wire Pass was already mentioned. A lot of people love it, while I wasn't impressed that much. But this is probably because I'm not so special about canyons. Lower Antelope is much more beautiful when it comes to the color but it's crowded. But you could easily do this one and Horseshoe Bend on one day.

One of my favorites in this area is Yellow Rock. I'm wondering that no one mentioned this.

The hike up:
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Yellow Rock:

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View in direction of Red Top:

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Direction of Castle Rock:
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It's an half day hike which is not to difficult. Just take care of your kid on the first part where it's going steep uphill with a lot of loose gravel.

You could even make a whole day trip out of it with visiting Red Top. But this a more difficult hike when it comes to routefinding. You can read a TR here:

http://www.toddshikingguide.com/Hikes/Utah/Escalante/Escalante11.htm

If you just want to go to Yellow Rock you can stop reading where it says "Look for it to lead around the southern base...."

Richie

[blueeyes]

Thanks Richie!

Alison didn't get the permit for tomorrow. :cry1: So I won't head down until after my kids get out of school Fri. She is a bit frustrated, it is windy and cold. Hopefully she get a permit for Sat. Around 8AM she sent a text telling me she was going to beat up people standing in line. :lol8: I will take this new info with me. If we don't get a permit for Sat then maybe we will do this hike. She sent another text not to long ago telling me that Buckskin Gulch and Paria Narrows is full of water and weather is a bit of an issue. But worst case scenario we will sit around a campfire drinking beer and laugh our arses off.

Keep throwing suggestions our way. I can take the new info with me when I leave.

[peakbaggers]

To get to the "White House" campground, you turn off 89 the same place as for the Paria station where permits are issued but make a left. It's just a short 2 mile drive down a washboarded road to the camp area. Keeps you real close to the paria station for the permit drawing & you don't have to make that 7 mile drive to Wire Pass over & over again (road can be rather rutted and/or washboarded).
We highly recommend Cottonwood Cove area as a backup plan. Used a T-100 4WD pickup to go in late Sept. No problems. Even had friends with us who made it in with a heavy 4WD pickup and camper. Scenery there offers enough to spend 2-3 days exploring & photography is unlimited in potential. Could also hike over to the eastern teepees which are outside of the North Coyote Buttes permit area and north of Cottonwood by a few miles.

[peakbaggers]

Forgot to add one other thought. There is some very interesting terrain along the upper portion of Buckskin Gulch from Wire Pass north to where Buckskin crosses the road. Easy hiking with lots of interesting crossbedded sandstone formations along the way. The last few hundred yards before Wire Pass slot up a little. Either do a two vehicle setup (use a mtn. bike - only takes about 15-20 minutes to ride between the two starts) or return trip hike. Easy day with plenty of time to explore.

[peakbaggers]

Where exactly is this Yellow Rock area? Off the Round Haouse Valley Road somewhere?

[Richie]

If the weather is an issue Yellow Rock isn't that beautiful because the color are not as beautiful. This is a hike that should be done with a blue sky.

If you're fine with driving in deep sand I would suggest to go to Cottonwood Cove and/or White Pocket. Then comes Yellow Rock, the Lower Antelope (if your fine with the crowds that could be there). Also nice destinations are the Wahweap Hoodoos and Thousand Pockets.

But I wish you all the best that you are able to get permits for Saturday. And if so: Don't forget to explore the area thats located above and to the right (lot of brainrocks). Just leave the Wave on the "upper end" and make a right.

Have fun
Richie

[blueeyes]

Am I fine with driving in deep sand??? :roflol::roflol::roflol::roflol: Ask Don and his friend Gonzo about that. Think I will keep my Subaru out of the sand this trip. 42830

[Richie]

Where exactly is this Yellow Rock area? Off the Round Haouse Valley Road somewhere? Do you mean House Rock Valley Road?

No it's near Hackberry Canyon on Cottonwood Canyon Road.

Directions can be found here: http://www.toddshikingguide.com/Hikes/Utah/Escalante/Escalante11.htm

blueeyes:

If you go there let me know how you liked it.

[zzyzx]

I hope you've luck to catch a permit.:2thumbs:

A other backup option. Drive down the House Rock Valley Rd. Went to Buckskin TH (left), hike down the Buckskin till a wash joins from left. Follow the wash to a dryfall (right). Explore this area to the south. Various sandstone formations, cross beddings and various colorations are to expect. We were there since 2007 a couple of times and has had a lot of fun.
You can stay over night near TH - watch a fire ring.
If you vist 'Yellow Rock` drive upwards the Brigham Plains Rd.(vis-a-vis Yellow Rock TH) to the rim and enjoy the great panorama of Yellow and Castle Rock.

[Richie]

This area that zzyzx mentioned is also very beautiful! :2thumbs:

I have some pictures on my website (text is in German), but you can get am impression what to see there:

http://www.beautifulamerica.de/highlights/245-edmaiers-secret?catid=39%3Autah

[homerj]

So the chances of Buckskin still flowing could be a potential then? :cry1: :eek2: I guess all we can do is get down there and see what conditions are like. My fear is going all that way (8 hours) to not be able to hike CBN or Buckskin. I do know there is so much more to see but these would be on my preference list since I'm not sure if I'd get back down this way anytime soon. So your camp site looks super awesome! I want to know where it's at.

You can still hike CBN as you turn off of the wire pass trail while is still just a wash. I would think you could hike up/down the buckskin still if it's flowing. It was just a small creek when I was there (2-3 inches deep). I imagine the water would be cold as it's snow melt from up high. Here are some pics of the buckskin at the confluence of wirepass. As you can see there's no problem wading as it's not deep, at least here... I've never been down the buckskin so I could speak for the rest of it. I have heard there are some deep spots up to your chest or so and sometimes swim...

This one is looking down the buckskin
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Look up the buckskin
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[arindam]

Having just come back from a long trip to the area, I would like to add that permits for the Wave are next to impossible. The couple of days I was there at the contact station, there were about 50 bodies for 10 permits. Permits for the South Coyote Buttes are easily available though. I went with Steve Dodson (Kirk was the guide) of the Paria Outpost. Fabulous scenery, but I wouldn't even dream of driving there myself. It was a full day trip, beginning with SCB and ending with sunset at White Pockets.

Also did a trip to the Edmaier's Secret area with Kirk (hiked down from Long Canyon road, not via Buckskin). An amazing place!

If you have any specific questions, I would be happy to answer them.

[blueeyes]

Oh we had a great time while we were there. :lol8::roflol: NOT :crazy::becca: rain/snow and sand :nono: :cold::cold::cold::cold::cold::cold::cold: as Abirken put it "Its not called the wave....its more like a wash....grrrr......"

I didn't even last 24 hours before packing up a soaked camp and heading home. Arrived Fri at 6PM and left the following day at 3:15PM. Not sure who the hell rates sleeping bags or how that works... mine is suppose to be +15 well I call BS on that one. Glad I took my snow pants or I never would have stayed warm. Even with ALL of my ski gear on I was cold in the sleeping bag. When I got up in the morning there was frost on my camp stove, by 10AM the car said it was 35-degrees. Thankfully the kids stayed warm in their sleeping bags. I can do cold, I can do rain. I can not do kids in the cold rain with sand. I didn't think I would ever find a use for my new three car garage. When we got home I laid out both tents and shoes and anything else that was wet to dry. Sunday morning I spent most of the day cleaning sand off of everything.

As for getting a permit to the Wave. What a f!g joke! BLM makes some money on that one.

Oh and on another side note. I have never attempted driving on a road they say is impassible when wet. I have no desire to get my car stuck. Holy HANNAH!!!! We tried to hike Wire Pass when we drove out the road was dry. It started raining on us just before we reached the small slot canyon. Just a drizzle nothing we thought we should be concerned about so we hiked through the slot canyon to where it opened up again then turned around and came back. Really short. Then found a spot to eat lunch out of the drizzle. The drizzle picked up and then it was kinda of slushy rain. We get back to the car, get all the shoes off the kids, and start driving back out. :eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2: Okay I have driven in some crappy icy snowy conditions but that was down right nerve racking and NUTS!!!! That road was slicker than snot and we had little if any traction because the tires were covered. Alison did a great job driving us out of there but we crept along. A snail could have beat us out of there.

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Hiking Wire Pass before the drizzle starts
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Starting in the slot canyon
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Kids at the end of small slot canyon where we turned around
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Hiking back out
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Lunch
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Driving back from trailhead
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Driving back home
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Putting the new three car garage to use!
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[ststephen]

Sorry to hear you guys had a sucky trip.

[tanya]

Bo and I did the Wave once, all the way up to Melody Arch and out. We hiked out with literally a foot of snow on top of My head.. Bo's head did not have enough hair to hold all that snow. We had a blast. The drive out was slippery, but totally fun! We ended up staying in Kanab though and was not able to make it home that night. Then Bo got stuck on Highway 389 in the morning for quite a while due to the snow. It was a FANTASTIC trip! I love stuff like that. I think I add somewhere on the Zion site that when we say the road is impassible when wet we do mean it! That clay is simply slippery! We did another trip out there in the snow too and it was fun, it was just not as eventful so lacking the memories.

Wave in the Snow
http://www.zionnational-park.com/images/album2/index59.htm

Somewhere on this group is the photo Bo took of me almost back to the car with all that snow piled on my head. lol

[zzyzx]

Bad news blueeyes,

It's a pity for you and your family.
Years ago we drove back from the Wire Pass TH as the rain comes up. The road were slickly and we're happy to reach the 89 with our RV. So I can feel with you.
You maybe have luck in a other try.

[zzyzx]

Also did a trip to the Edmaier's Secret area with Kirk (hiked down from Long Canyon road, not via Buckskin). An amazing place!

:2thumbs::2thumbs:

Hope, you have had a lot of fun.
It's a really amazing place. Steve does now guided tours to this area - great.
We met Steve 2009 in White Pocket and he was never been before at Edmaiers. He had heard only of these place.

[blueeyes]

Bad news blueeyes,

It's a pity for you and your family.
Years ago we drove back from the Wire Pass TH as the rain comes up. The road were slickly and we're happy to reach the 89 with our RV. So I can feel with you.
You maybe have luck in a other try.

No pity here. It was an adventure the kids will never forget! Good character building experience. We broke camp in record time and they were absolute jewels with helping. Hope to try again sometime preferably with out snow or rain or freezing cold temperatures or at least if that is what I have to deal with I will book a hotel room. :lol8:

[Richie]

Sorry to hear about that. But going into a slot canyon wasn't also the best idea. That's something really dangerous.


I would like to add that permits for the Wave are next to impossible. The couple of days I was there at the contact station, there were about 50 bodies for 10 permits.That's not too bad. Look at 4/17 on this picture

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And there were even days with 100+ people. :eek2:

[abirken]

OKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK Chere pretty much covered everything about the conditions in her big reply above. So my issue is that I took my kids out of school, bought enough food to last the 4 days I originally planned on staying and drove 8 hours to get there but had to turn around after 3 days. If I wanted to just go camping, I would have stopped in Moab, not taken the kids out of school and called it good but I had bigger plans. On my list:
The Wave- didn't get a permit
Buckskin Gulch- shoulder deep water
Paria Narrows- Waist deep water
Wirepass-attempted twice in crappy weather
Yellow Rock- road closed due to impassable conditions
Toadstools- accomplished
Waeweap hoodoos- road closed due to impassable conditions

As you can imagine, I was pretty frustrated.

Another note- maybe if I would have been with just another adult, we would have lasted the duration of the trip and continued to find other options for adventure?? Not sure to be honest. But with 3 kids needing attention in blowing snow, sand storms, cold, rain and wind was NO FUN for mom. :crazycobasa::fitz::angryfire: Oh and we determined that you Freezefesters are animals. HAHA!!!!43019430204302143022

OFF SOAP BOX NOW!!!!!!! On a positive note- we did get SOME blue sky (briefly), some fun night photos of our camp (thank you Summit), and I got to see Chere for 24 hours and share good beer together. Almost every trip I have organized in the last few years has run seamlessly so I have to remember that. It's rare to have one that doesn't go as planned so I consider myself lucky. :lol8::mrgreen: I crossed this off my bucket list and IF I attempt this again, I will make it just a trip with adults and later in the year.

Oh and the lottery system is a JOKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE........a flipping JOKE! I was laughing out loud when I saw how it actually went down that morning and didn't even want to try again the next morning. They should really re-consider how that is done. :roll:43015430164301743018

[ststephen]

Admirable job making the most out of not-so-great conditions. Kids learn from this stuff too. Can't wait to hang with you in June!

[blueeyes]

Umm yeah Freezefest is something I will never attempt! I LOVE the snow but I hate HATE being cold.

Another day Alison! It will work out and the skies will be blue.

[jdgibney]

It looks like you guys still managed to make the most of it. Sorry the weather put a big damper on things :(

The shot of the kiddos at the toadstools is awesome, and I see some good time smiles in there!

We lucked out with the weather flying out from the east coast for a quick 3 day trip. Its not much consolation right now, but if you can get back there in January or even early February, you can get permits easier for CBN. when I got ours, there were lots of available dates (for january I went online Oct 15th and the days not claimed were open up and there were plenty). Obviously its still a crap-shoot with the weather, and we were extremely fortunate (though I was hoping for some clouds for photos :)

[zzyzx]

No pity here. It was an adventure the kids will never forget! Good character building experience. We broke camp in record time and they were absolute jewels with helping.

:2thumbs::2thumbs:

[arindam]

I left Kanab and headed to Zion on the 24th. There was quite a bit of snow in Kanab on 23rd night and that probably worsened things. I drove through Johnson Canyon on the 24th morning, and it was spectacular with all the snow.

For the Wahweap Hoodoos, were you planning to take Cottonwood Cyn. and BLM 431? I met a couple of photogs at the Toadstool Hoodoos and they bumped into a couple of rangers on BLM 431 around 7 am. 431 is off-limits now.


On my list:
The Wave- didn't get a permit
Buckskin Gulch- shoulder deep water
Paria Narrows- Waist deep water
Wirepass-attempted twice in crappy weather
Yellow Rock- road closed due to impassable conditions
Toadstools- accomplished
Waeweap hoodoos- road closed due to impassable conditions

As you can imagine, I was pretty frustrated.

[Philippe]

For the Wahweap Hoodoos, were you planning to take Cottonwood Cyn. and BLM 431? I met a couple of photogs at the Toadstool Hoodoos and they bumped into a couple of rangers on BLM 431 around 7 am. 431 is off-limits now.

Is there now a sign on BLM 431 telling that it is off-limits and did the couple of photographers get a fine for driving on this dirt road ?

Philippe

[tanya]

Yeah, its so much easier for those of us that live nearby. We choose the hike each weekend by the weather. You are troopers. :hail2thechief:

[arindam]

Phillipe,

I didn't dare drive on that road, but from what I was told, if the rangers catch you with photo gear (meaning, you are not a ranger and do not have administrative rights for driving on that road), you are in for some trouble. The guys I met hadn't unpacked their photo gear and just told the rangers that they were on a joy drive on that road :-) They also told me that they didn't see any signs forbidding travel on that road.

From what I heard, the rangers are strictly implementing that policy (I was told by a ranger at the Bigwater Visitor center that the fine was $300). May be, since Kane County recently won a road maintenance lawsuit, BLM has upped the ante on the roads which are legally within its complete jurisdiction. But whoever I met in Kanab and Page, people are darned pi**ed about these policies.

Arindam


Is there now a sign on BLM 431 telling that it is off-limits and did the couple of photographers get a fine for driving on this dirt road ?

Philippe

[tanya]

Many locals in Kanab feel they own all the land and that the GSENM should have never been made. They do not like any visitors on it. They want all the roads open for their use.

[peakbaggers]

Is this road 431 the one that brings you into the Wahweap Hoodoos from the west and terminates at the wash about a mile north of the formations? If so, is it still legal to Mountain bike in that way? You could knock that off in about an hour on a bike from what I remember.

[arindam]

Quite possibly, but I spoke with a few at the Holiday Inn in Kanab, and they were frustrated at the road closures being implemented.

Btw, if you remember, I had emailed you about the Many Pools hike in Zion. Never could find the trailhead, even after 6-7 attempts. Asked a bunch of people, nobody had a clue.

Arindam


May locals in Kanab feel they own the land that is not the GSENM and do not like any visitors on it. They want all the roads open for their use.

[arindam]

Yeah, that's the one. I think mountain biking (non-motorized travel) is legal, but I never did ask. May be someone should start offering horse ride trips.

Arindam


Is this road 431 the one that brings you into the Wahweap Hoodoos from the west and terminates at the wash about a mile north of the formations? If so, is it still legal to Mountain bike in that way? You could knock that off in about an hour on a bike from what I remember.

[tanya]

I did not get the email that you could not find it but its better to just post it here anyway. Did you look at the map?

http://www.zionnational-park.com/zion-trail-map-mp.htm

[antlerking]

---

[americanhero]

we visited the hoodoos again last year and even with the rumors about BLM 431 we did the drive. There were no signs that it wasn't allowed to use the road and were the only ones that morning(there were only 10 billion No See Ums attacking us). We never asked a ranger about BLM 431 and if it's allowed to use that access to the hoodoos or not. Some friends of mine were told years ago that they couldn't use BLM 431, which wasn't true.
So right now I'm not sure what to believe. :ne_nau:

[americanhero]

No pity here. It was an adventure the kids will never forget! Good character building experience. We broke camp in record time and they were absolute jewels with helping. Hope to try again sometime preferably with out snow or rain or freezing cold temperatures or at least if that is what I have to deal with I will book a hotel room. :lol8:


at least you made the best of it and tried.
And guess what? Now you have a reason to come back and try again :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:
And for next time I press both thumps for great conditions and maybe a Wave permit.
I don't know, but somehow I managed it in 2009 to get permits in the lottery twice. Once in June, once again in December.
Our December trip reminds me a little bit of your experiences. We went a day after a snow storm and it was awesome. But the drive back on Houserock Valley Road was awful. The whole surface was wet because of the molten snow during the day and it was so slippery and soapy. Our car was caked with mud.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2527/4219615155_0ed427081a.jpg

Not so funny...

[arindam]

I think they are serious this time. If I had already been done with the photography, perhaps I wouldn't mind getting caught and pay a fine (I was told that I could even be issued a citation banning me from visiting NP's/Monuments for a year, go figure!), but what if I got caught before I had even taken the pictures? I wouldn't risk a double whammy.


we visited the hoodoos again last year and even with the rumors about BLM 431 we did the drive. There were no signs that it wasn't allowed to use the road and were the only ones that morning(there were only 10 billion No See Ums attacking us). We never asked a ranger about BLM 431 and if it's allowed to use that access to the hoodoos or not. Some friends of mine were told years ago that they couldn't use BLM 431, which wasn't true.
So right now I'm not sure what to believe. :ne_nau:

[americanhero]

I think they are serious this time. If I had already been done with the photography, perhaps I wouldn't mind getting caught and pay a fine (I was told that I could even be issued a citation banning me from visiting NP's/Monuments for a year, go figure!), but what if I got caught before I had even taken the pictures? I wouldn't risk a double whammy.

wow, that sounds really serious... :roll:
At least I have a couple of pics, visited the area several times. But it's very frustrating as well.
Because I love to visit places like Rainbow Valley and the other Hoodoo areas nearby.

[Philippe]

Phillipe,
I didn't dare drive on that road, but from what I was told, if the rangers catch you with photo gear (meaning, you are not a ranger and do not have administrative rights for driving on that road), you are in for some trouble. The guys I met hadn't unpacked their photo gear and just told the rangers that they were on a joy drive on that road :-) They also told me that they didn't see any signs forbidding travel on that road.
From what I heard, the rangers are strictly implementing that policy (I was told by a ranger at the Bigwater Visitor center that the fine was $300). May be, since Kane County recently won a road maintenance lawsuit, BLM has upped the ante on the roads which are legally within its complete jurisdiction. But whoever I met in Kanab and Page, people are darned pi**ed about these policies.
Arindam

Thank you for that answer. It's a shame that they close BLM 431, at is is not only an access for the Wahweap Hoodoos but also for some other nice Hoodoos on a side dirt road from BLM 431 (west of Wahweap wash).

I feel that it is dishonest from the rangers not to put any signs at the entrance of BLM 431 telling that it is forbidden and then to ask for a fine of $300 to somebody caught on this road. Maybe this hidden closure is also a way for them to make easy money for the BLM...

Philippe

[americanhero]

It's a shame that they close BLM 431, at is is not only an access for the Wahweap Hoodoos but also for some other nice Hoodoos on a side dirt road from BLM 431 (west of Wahweap wash).


Philippe, I totally agree.
Especially the lovely Hoodoos nearby in all their different shapes and sizes are so beautiful to see. They make the area so unique.
I'm kind of disappointed right now...:roll:

[Philippe]

Philippe, I totally agree.
Especially the lovely Hoodoos nearby in all their different shapes and sizes are so beautiful to see. They make the area so unique. I'm kind of disappointed right now...:roll:

Yes, all these hoodoos located in what we call the Sidestep canyon, Rainbow Valley, White Valley... I planned to return there during my next trip because I visited these places in the early 2000's (searching for the location of the Wahweap hoodoos that was a secret at that time, but we founded it !) but I never returned to some of these places so I have no digital pictures of them (only some paper snapshots). I will cancel this visit as I don't want to pay a $300 fine and to be bannished from the parks ! Fortunately, I've already returned to the Wahweap hoodoos with a digital camera so I have decent pictures of this very nice place.

Philippe

[blueeyes]

at least you made the best of it and tried.
And guess what? Now you have a reason to come back and try again :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

Since the kids and I are so close we have already decided to go back we kinda liked that camp spot. They love anything near water so we will make another trip before it is to HOT to enjoy. Not sure I will worry about Wave permits at this time. I can wait on that one. Lots of other things to see and do.



Not so funny...

I don't think Alison took a picture of the Great White (her pathfinder) but I agree not so funny. At least the day you have to drive in it. Now the further you get away from it. :roflol: It starts to become amusing.

[arindam]

Phillipe,

There's still a way to get to these places (Sidestep), from Lower White Rocks, which you access from Bigwater. That was what I was told by BLM and also a local guide. But the hike is pretty strenuous and time consuming. I was too bummed out to try that.

I don't remember who said this to me (a BLM ranger or a local guide), but it's now (or, could be) a federal felony for trespassing on federal lands.

Arindam


Yes, all these hoodoos located in what we call the Sidestep canyon, Rainbow Valley, White Valley... I planned to return there during my next trip because I visited these places in the early 2000's (searching for the location of the Wahweap hoodoos that was a secret at that time, but we founded it !) but I never returned to some of these places so I have no digital pictures of them (only some paper snapshots). I will cancel this visit as I don't want to pay a $300 fine and to be bannished from the parks ! Fortunately, I've already returned to the Wahweap hoodoos with a digital camera so I have decent pictures of this very nice place.

Philippe

[arindam]

Well, as I was told, I could still make the 10-11 mile round trip hike to Wahweap Hoodoos from Bigwater. That's beyond me, so I guess all those who can make the hike are environmentally conscious and would protect the fragile hoodoos. Those who are unable to make the hike have no business seeing those.


wow, that sounds really serious... :roll:
At least I have a couple of pics, visited the area several times. But it's very frustrating as well.
Because I love to visit places like Rainbow Valley and the other Hoodoo areas nearby.

[ratagonia]

Phillipe,

I didn't dare drive on that road, but from what I was told, if the rangers catch you with photo gear (meaning, you are not a ranger and do not have administrative rights for driving on that road), you are in for some trouble. The guys I met hadn't unpacked their photo gear and just told the rangers that they were on a joy drive on that road :-) They also told me that they didn't see any signs forbidding travel on that road.

From what I heard, the rangers are strictly implementing that policy (I was told by a ranger at the Bigwater Visitor center that the fine was $300). May be, since Kane County recently won a road maintenance lawsuit, BLM has upped the ante on the roads which are legally within its complete jurisdiction. But whoever I met in Kanab and Page, people are darned pi**ed about these policies.

Arindam

This sounds really crazy, Arindam. Kane County has never won ANYTHING against the BLM, since their basic claim is that the land belongs to them, when it does not. Having or not having photo gear? Totally irrelevant.

????

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

Phillipe,

There's still a way to get to these places (Sidestep), from Lower White Rocks, which you access from Bigwater. That was what I was told by BLM and also a local guide. But the hike is pretty strenuous and time consuming. I was too bummed out to try that.

I don't remember who said this to me (a BLM ranger or a local guide), but it's now (or, could be) a federal felony for trespassing on federal lands.

Arindam

Sounds like you are being played by a local with an axe to grind, Arindam. If they closed the road because of impassable conditions, and you went out anyway and got your car stuck, AND mouthed off when they came and got you, they might give you a ticket for creating a hazardous situation; but then again they might just laugh at you when the towtruck driver presents you the $1000 tow bill.

Kane County marked and cleared roads on the Monument without the (BLM) Monument's permission. The BLM went and 'erased' those roads. If you drive roads that are not part of the 900 miles of open roads in the Monument, then you certainly can be cited for driving off established roadways, which is a misdemeanor. They might administratively close certain areas, for instance, an employee housing area or a vehicle maintenance area, and trespassing there you could be cited for entering a closed area, again, a misdemeanor until you pull out your gun and refuse to accept the ticket (which would constitute a felony).

In other words, you're either being played (successfully) or you are talking smack... in either case, please stop it. The Facts, Ma'am, Just the Facts.

Tom :moses:

[tanya]

Totally agree with Tom!

[oldno7]

There is nothing about what Arindam is saying that makes sense.

[arindam]

Folks:

I just narrated here what I was told by the BLM (at the Bigwater Visitor Center). The road in question is specifically BLM 431 (no off-roading, no driving in the wash, nothing of that sort). When I was there, Cottonwood Cyn. was in great shape and so was BLM 431. But I was clearly told that if I were caught on BLM 431, I could be charged with trespassing on federal land. And no, I wasn't being a jerk with them, I was polite all the way.

Whether it makes sense to you or not, I can't argue about that; I just gave you information (as I was given) which could be useful to some future visitors who might want to take BLM 431 to visit the hoodoos and Sidestep Canyon.

Re Kane County winning a lawsuit or not, I am not a local and so I don't know the details, but that's what I was told by a tourist I met at a hotel in Kanab. But in any case, this has nothing to do with the status of BLM 431. If you read my post carefully, you will see that I prefaced the sentence with "may be", which means that it's my inference (inferences are not necessarily facts) that BLM has stepped up its enforcement effort.

This is the last I am going to say anything about this issue.

Arindam

[ratagonia]

Folks:

I just narrated here what I was told by the BLM (at the Bigwater Visitor Center). The road in question is specifically BLM 431 (no off-roading, no driving in the wash, nothing of that sort). When I was there, Cottonwood Cyn. was in great shape and so was BLM 431. But I was clearly told that if I were caught on BLM 431, I could be charged with trespassing on federal land. And no, I wasn't being a jerk with them, I was polite all the way.

Whether it makes sense to you or not, I can't argue about that; I just gave you information (as I was given) which could be useful to some future visitors who might want to take BLM 431 to visit the hoodoos and Sidestep Canyon.

Re Kane County winning a lawsuit or not, I am not a local and so I don't know the details, but that's what I was told by a tourist I met at a hotel in Kanab. But in any case, this has nothing to do with the status of BLM 431. If you read my post carefully, you will see that I prefaced the sentence with "may be", which means that it's my inference (inferences are not necessarily facts) that BLM has stepped up its enforcement effort.

This is the last I am going to say anything about this issue.

Arindam

Thank you for clarifying Arindam, and sorry for going over the top on you. I have an email inquiry into the BLM, and might get a response that adds a little more clarity.

Tom

[Jammer]

re: 431

Could the difference of perspective re: the facts here possible be about where 431 ends? According to the BLM maps, 431 ends where it meets 430 which continues back up to Cottonwood Canyon Rd. The road/track which continues east from this point toward the Wahweap Hoodoos is off limits and is not 431. It may have been considered 431 at one time (not sure), but it's no longer even on the map.

BTW -- walking is always permitted. Horses... maybe. Bikes...technically not, but I really don't think you would get busted for this here (but don't quote me!)

To me... it actually seems nice to keep cars a little bit farther away from this special place.

- Jamal
43084

[arindam]

Tom,

Would you mind clarifying the issue once you get your reply from BLM? If I had been given wrong or misleading information, I would like to know that. It wouldn't be hard for me to retrieve a transcript of my conversation with them.

Arindam

[arindam]

Jamal,

That could well be the case, and if I may hazard a guess, the map has probably been updated very recently. If you read through Laurent Martres' book "Photographing the Southwest (Vol. 2)", the interpretation there is that BLM 431 ends right before the Wahweap Wash, meaning you had to hike in the rest of the way to the hoodoos.

Arindam

[ratagonia]

Jamal,

That could well be the case, and if I may hazard a guess, the map has probably been updated very recently. If you read through Laurent Martres' book "Photographing the Southwest (Vol. 2)", the interpretation there is that BLM 431 ends right before the Wahweap Wash, meaning you had to hike in the rest of the way to the hoodoos.

Arindam

The copyright on that is 2006, and access is definitely quickly changing in this part of the world.

Tom

[arindam]

You are right Tom, but for some reason I thought that the version I have was updated in 2008. Even then, a couple of years is probably eternity as far as BLM land policies are concerned.

I frequent quite a few online forums, and I'm not sure where I read, but I do remember people saying that they were given the shortcut directions by the BLM as late as last year. So that's why I said enforcement policies have probably been enhanced fairly recently. When I heard the lawsuit information (which is wrong as you point out), I put the two and two together and inferred that the stepped up policies probably coincided with that lawsuit decision (again, probably a wrong inference on my part).

Arindam

[peakbaggers]

I for one at least appreciate the discussion on this. The heads up is worthwhile. Went into the Wahweaps by way of 431 a coule of years ago but was there in the afternoon and did not get the best photos. We've been planning on going back, so don't want to go in only to find ourselves fined. Next time, we'll check with the BLM before going. As to mtn bikes using the road, most of the time bikes are restricted from travelling off desinated/recognized road surfaces. If they're not allowed on 431, then maybe it's because the BLM doesn't consider the road in there past the first wash to be a desinated travel route. Would still appreciate a definitive answer on this Tom becaue I still think I could easily ride that road in about an hour one way and would prefer that over hiking in from Bigwater.
Now, would anyone care to reveal where Sidestep Canyon, Rainbow Valley and White Valley are? Was once told by a local tour operator of more hoodoo formations and fantastic colors in another location near & east of the Wahweap hoodoos. About two miles or so before the end of 431, there's a road that heads off SE. It takes you to the top of and beyond some other canyons directly east of the Wahweap formations. Haven't been on that road yet but I think that what the tour operator described fits this road & area. On satelite images, it's hard to tell if there's anything really interesting in there or not. From maps, it's clear you could enter this area from a walk up Wahweap from Bigwater - but would be a significant haul. If anyone has some beta on these others but don't want to post here, please contact us directly.

[arindam]

peakbaggers, you have a PM. But Phillipe really is the know-all on this. The road you mention "about 2 miles before the end of 431" is probably what was known as White Sands Jeep Road. Nope, you can't drive on that one now.

[americanhero]

Thank you for clarifying Arindam, and sorry for going over the top on you. I have an email inquiry into the BLM, and might get a response that adds a little more clarity.

Tom

I would appreciate it if you would write something about their mail response.
I'm usually very suspicious about information not written somewhere in b&w and such a mail would clarify it a little bit .

And I'm also very curious about the other access to Rainbow Valley, Sidestep Canyon ...
I now there is a more strenuous access, but I never used that one. And White Sands Jeep Road is also interesting to know about.

[Philippe]

Now, would anyone care to reveal where Sidestep Canyon, Rainbow Valley and White Valley are? Was once told by a local tour operator of more hoodoo formations and fantastic colors in another location near & east of the Wahweap hoodoos. About two miles or so before the end of 431, there's a road that heads off SE. It takes you to the top of and beyond some other canyons directly east of the Wahweap formations. Haven't been on that road yet but I think that what the tour operator described fits this road & area. On satelite images, it's hard to tell if there's anything really interesting in there or not. From maps, it's clear you could enter this area from a walk up Wahweap from Bigwater - but would be a significant haul. If anyone has some beta on these others but don't want to post here, please contact us directly.

The access to these sites is by White Sands Jeep Road that branches BLM 431 at 37

[zzyzx]

Little conclusion,
it is forbidden, to drive on BLM 431 - hmm.

So is the loop BLM 400 (Cottonwood Rd.), BLM 430 and BLM 431 death now?:ne_nau:

Little bit OT...need a litttle help...plz, maybe from the folks west of Zion.

Has anybody experiences about BLM 586, BLM 584, BLM 580 and BLM 587 - connects from US 89 to Nipple Lake?
It is possible to drive directly from BLM 587 to Mollies Nipple?
Thank you.

[tanya]

I don't seem to have the ability to split this thread, but if we could make one for general questions on the subject separate from Allison and Chere's trip it would be nice.

[zzyzx]

You're right - sorry.

[tanya]

No sorry necessary. I do it all the time. We just need to split the thread is all. :)

[akavalun]

Sorry to hear your trip didn't go as planned. Spring travel in the desert can be kind of a crap shoot. Slot canyons this time of year can be fluid due to precipitation. Fall travel is much easier and more reliable due to the stable weather. Those of us that live here are quite lucky to be able to plan our trips on a whim depending on the weather forecast. As far as the Coyote Buttes permit system though, I do not share your sentiment. That area is extremely fragile. I've been hiking out there for 6 years now, and every time I go, I see more and more damage. Fins busted off, shoe marks on the rocks, garbage left behind....and that is with a maximum of 20 hikers a day, many days not even that many make it out there. Lets say when you finally do get a permit (and you will if you keep trying), would you want 50 other people standing in the Wave when you are trying to get a picture? Do you want to see picnic tables and bathrooms around every corner? Or how about a paved trail for the first mile and a half? Basically increased visitation will simply ruin the experience. There aren't very many places left that can be considered pristine, and unfortunately, Coyote Buttes can hardly even fit the description anymore.....

[ratagonia]

There aren't very many places left that can be considered pristine, and unfortunately, Coyote Buttes can hardly even fit the description anymore.....

I disagree (and agree). There are plenty of pristine places left, I visit them all the time. Coyote Buttes has been a "hot" destination for at least 10 years, and is visited almost every day. It is a great place, and has been highlighted as such for quite some time. It is true there are very few to none pristine, highly-hyped locations left...

Tom

[akavalun]

Ok, pristine yes...but attractive to 99% of the population, probably not. My point was that Coyote Buttes is one of the most amazing places on this earth, for hiking, geology, photography, natural history etc...and the permit system helps to maintain that.

[zzyzx]

Coyote Buttes has been a "hot" destination for at least 10 years, and is visited almost every day.

...and since this article (http://travel.latimes.com/articles/la-tr-coyotebuttes25nov25), the run on the Coyote Buttes becomes an hype

[blueeyes]

I don't mind the limit on the number of people they let hike a pristine place like Coyote Buttes. I am in total agreement with that. What I thought was a joke was the way they choose walk ins for the hike. For me as a single mom and for Alison traveling with her kids, there is no way you can go as a group unless you win a online permit. Alison and I had misunderstandings about how the walk in permit system worked down there. Now we know.

[zzyzx]

Ok, pristine yes...but attractive to 99% of the population, probably not. My point was that Coyote Buttes is one of the most amazing places on this earth, for hiking, geology, photography, natural history etc...and the permit system helps to maintain that.


That's true and absolutely ok.

But...
Most of the visitor of the wave, take a look and went back.
That's all.
Some visitors don't know about - Leave no Trace.

So it's very hard to obtain a permit for the CBN, for visiting the beautiful surroundings like Top Rock, Sand Cove, etc, etc.

[akavalun]

What is wrong with the way they do the walk in permits? What part of it is a joke?

[blueeyes]

The amount of people that want to hike it compared to the availability of spots... on the day Alison went 45 people were there and that is unusually low....I personally find that comical.

[akavalun]

Yeah, but thats not a problem with the permit system. It just happens that a lot of people want to visit the area, and it has to be limited, other wise it will just turn into a zoo out there. Certain areas are more vulnerable to traffic, and Coyote Buttes is one of them. You have a way better chance of getting a permit in person than you do online, so if anything, you should be upset with the online drawing, not the in-person lottery. Were you expecting that they give away as many permits as needed in person? Its pretty well stated that 10 are available online, and 10 are given out each day in a lottery. They even give you hypothetical situations on the website so you know exactly how the system works. And they don't "chose" the walk-ins. Its a random drawing....how could that be any more fair???? Honestly I just think that you are upset because its a difficult draw. Its no different that hunting mule deer on the Arizona strip. The area can only sustain so much hunting pressure, so tags are limited. It takes 13 years to draw a strip tag, but thats just how it is......

[blueeyes]

ya read too much into what i said don't stress it i am not..... like to add maybe it was more i thought it was a joke that WE thought we would get a permit. There does that make you happy. I find the whole experience comical. One I am sure I will laugh at again and again when I look back.

[NWPhotoGuy]

An old thread, perhaps, but thought that I'd give an update.

As mentioned, the BLM has closed 431 at at 37

[Iceaxe]

Just picked up a buckskin permit on-line today..... the BLM computer permit system sucks. It kept kicking me out... I called the BLM to complain and was told they are aware of the problem and working on it. I wish they would hurry up as that system has sucked for the past ten years and I'm always told they are working on it. It would let me make reservations right up to "Click to Pay" button, which would not show up.

The sad part is every time I went back in I noticed the permits I had tried for were now blocked out. The system was counting every time I tried as if someone had obtained a permit, but it would let me finish paying for them Eventually the Click to Pay button showed up and I was able to obtain permits, to bad about the other 20 permits I blocked out that will probably go unused.

:cool2:

[zzyzx]

Just picked up a buckskin permit on-line today..... the BLM computer permit
system sucks. It kept kicking me

Welcome into the club. Every year the same procedure w/ online permits.
I've tried it out to catch a permit for buckskin at work on my netbook, later from the office PC. My wife tried it at home. What a nightmare.:angryfire:


I wish they would hurry up as that system has sucked for the past ten years
and I'm always told they are working on it.

Me too.
1.5 hours later the spook were over and I've caught my permits. Many, first shown as blocked, were free.

Aha axe, you were the blocker. :wink: :lol8: