Down Blue John and out Horseshoe

[remoteman45]

Saturday, with my son and five friends, I did Blue John Canyon and exited out Horseshoe Canyon past the Grand Gallery. It was my first time in Blue John so to see where Aaron Ralston was trapped was fascinating. It's pretty amazing to think of Ralston doing what he did and then making his way into Horseshoe canyon to finally find help. Friday night we camped at the Horseshoe Canyon trailhead and shuttled down to the west approach of Blue John in the morning. We started the hike at 9:00am and arrived at the Horseshoe Canyon trailhead at 6:00pm. Weather was near perfect for the day with great hiking temps. And what a beautiful canyon especially the lower section leading up to the last rappel. The slot was totally dry and the pool at the bottom of the final rappel was frozen solid. The slot below Ralton's choke stone was awesome and the light was pretty good for snapping a few shots. Other than a lot of sandy wash walking, it was a great day with some cool people. Next time, I'd like to do the East canyon and exit the main and miss that long slog out past the Grand Gallery. I've seen that twice now and I think that'll do. Enjoy the pics

[moab mark]

Nice, missed ya by just a couple of days. Those are some nice pics, what camera are you using? We went down East up Middle on Monday. Middle must be popular, we were surprised how many tracks had come down Middle.

[remoteman45]

Yeah Mark, I read your TR with great interest since I was headed down there too. I shoot with an Olympus E3, on a tripod, with mirror lock-up, bracketed w/ 5 exposures for HDR and tonemapping, ISO 100, with a 12-22mm 2.8 lens at F-16-22. Some of my exposures were 20-30 seconds long. I could have easily spent a couple hours in the slot section but alas, I had people with me and a long hike ahead of us. I took a bunch of pics with my GoPro helmet hero HD and I'm anxious to see how those turned out. Here's a couple from the helmet cam of where Ralston was trapped. The first one is the "S" log at the the beginning of the slot and the second is looking back up canyon at the spot where he stood for 127 hours

[KanyonKris]

Good photos and nice report.

I'm thinking of a trip down east up main in a week or two. Conditions?

I'd heard the sand hallways section of main got washed out, is this true? If so, what's it like now?

[moab mark]

I do not know about the sand being washed out? Last week East had lots of butt freezin water and middle was bone dry.

[agostinone]

I took a a couple of buddies down main and out the west fork back in November and the sand is gone. We ended stemming from the first big down climb until the nifty s-turn. Not that that's a bad thing--it made it a more fun adventure for the new folks (including me).

[KanyonKris]

Thanks for the feedback. The new plan is to just do the main fork (enter/exit west fork). Just want to keep this trip light and easy.

Then either go see the panels in Horseshoe or drive down to do Leprechaun.

[Iceaxe]

I'm thinking of a trip down east up main in a week or two. Conditions?

Dude! eight years ago last weekend we did the east/west combo. Doesn't seem like that long ago. That water was frickin' cold!

FWIW: Kris is in the brown shirt.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PItrHyofEg

[aussie1213]

Awesome post. Looking to do west fork blue john to horseshoe with a couple buddies next month. I haven't found a whole lot of info on how long this could reasonably take. Essentially, we really want to hit the big drop and a major plus would be the gallery. We won't have a shuttle so would need to hike back. Is there an alternative route to see both other than west to main to horseshoe? Does anyone know approximately how long it would take to get back to the vehicle? Am I correct in assuming once you commit to the drop you are in it until the horseshoe trailhead exit or are there other ways out? Thats looking like a 15 mile trip and im not sure I want to go for that in one day since I am unfamiliar with the area and don't like sleeping in the sand:nono:. Any input on a good route to accomplish all/some of this would be very much appreciated!!!

[remoteman45]

You gotta have a shuttle. That walk back after the Blue John / Horseshoe hike would be brutal and I'm not sure you could do it all in daylight. Some do the shuttle with bikes. We started at 9:00am at the Blue John West Trailhead and finished at the Horseshoe trailhead at 6:00pm. I couldn't imagine having to hoof it 14-15 miles after all that.

[pimenm]

My girlfriend and I are from Toronto. We're planning on going to Utah this May for a couple of weeks Hiking, Mountain Biking and off roading in:

Our Itinerary:

-Vegas
-Hoover Dam
-Valley of Fire
-Zion
-Bryce
-Capitol Reef Cedar Mesa - Cathedral Valley
-Bluejohn Canyon
-Arches
-Dead Horse Valley
-Canyonlands White Rim
-Valley of the Gods
-Goosenecks, Muley Point
-Monument Valley
-Glen Canyon Dam
-Horseshoe Bend
-Water Holes Canyon
-South Canyon UPS Route - Grand Canyon
-Toroweap Lava Falls Route
-Vegas

We're thinking of going down the main fork all the way to the big drop and then back up the west fork. I heard it is possible to hike down without rappeling equipment.

Is it possible to downclimb/stem the main fork without a harness? If not would a 50 foot rope with knotted steps do? Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks.

[CarpeyBiggs]

the main fork is possible without a harness, but you will need to negotiate a few drops that depending on your climbing skill, may be a bit of work.

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/dan0810roost/pages/day2/

[ratagonia]

the main fork is possible without a harness, but you will need to negotiate a few drops that depending on your climbing skill, may be a bit of work.

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/dan0810roost/pages/day2/

I think it might be easier to go down the West Fork, then UP the main fork. Up is easier than down in this case (but I have not done it down). That way, if it gets to hairy, you can turn around and go back the way you came, without it ruining your day.

T

[ratagonia]

Awesome post. Looking to do west fork blue john to horseshoe with a couple buddies next month. I haven't found a whole lot of info on how long this could reasonably take. Essentially, we really want to hit the big drop and a major plus would be the gallery. We won't have a shuttle so would need to hike back. Is there an alternative route to see both other than west to main to horseshoe? Does anyone know approximately how long it would take to get back to the vehicle? Am I correct in assuming once you commit to the drop you are in it until the horseshoe trailhead exit or are there other ways out? Thats looking like a 15 mile trip and im not sure I want to go for that in one day since I am unfamiliar with the area and don't like sleeping in the sand:nono:. Any input on a good route to accomplish all/some of this would be very much appreciated!!!

You could always fix a rope at the "big" rap, hike to the gallery, then back, jug the rope, return the way you came. Eliminates the need for a car shuttle.

T

[nat]

I think it might be easier to go down the West Fork, then UP the main fork. Up is easier than down in this case (but I have not done it down). That way, if it gets to hairy, you can turn around and go back the way you came, without it ruining your day.

T

Actually, I have done it both ways on several occasions, and it is a LOT easier going down main fork than up. Down is a pretty easy slither stem and slide. Up is is a real bear. If going up, tether your pack so it hangs below you and doesn't get in the way. I've gone down east fork and up main a few times, and down main and up west a few times. Of course, west is the least interesting, so you see the best of all if you go down east and up main, but going up main is a pain.

Nat

[pimenm]

Thanks for all the feedback. Probably going to take the main fork down to the big drop and back via West Fork. East fork might be to technical for us without rappeling equipment.

Remoteman45 Great trip report, great shots!! How did you get the picture running over the ice? Did you use 20 sec exposure with ND filter, F22 on a tripod?

[remoteman45]

That running on the ice shot is done with the camera in burst mode (best if done on a tripod but I handheld that one) then a little work in Photoshop with layers. Here's my best one to date - same kid-my son

[aussie1213]

Thanks for all the feedback, much appreciated! How were those bolts on the big drop? Do I need to be prepared to build an anchor or were they pretty solid?

[ratagonia]

Thanks for all the feedback, much appreciated! How were those bolts on the big drop? Do I need to be prepared to build an anchor or were they pretty solid?

Bolts at the big drop? Uh oh, I should go pull those out! Thanks for the heads up!!!

Yes, you need to be prepared to build an anchor. Who knows what has happened to them recently - not I!

(Only half kidding) Tom :moses:

[remoteman45]

The bolts were bomber. Since they were there I didn't look around to see what natural anchors were available

[Iceaxe]

Here's my best one to date - same kid-my son

Cool pic. :2thumbs:

Zero-G?

[remoteman45]

You got it :clap::clap::clap::clap:

[aussie1213]

That's great, makes it a lot more comfortable for me. Rat, please don't chop those bolts, I'd love to be able to share my photog skills if I make it back alive,:haha:. I someday want to be a "ghost" like you guys but definetly not there yet.

[ratagonia]

That's great, makes it a lot more comfortable for me. Rat, please don't chop those bolts, I'd love to be able to share my photog skills if I make it back alive,:haha:. I someday want to be a "ghost" like you guys but definetly not there yet.

The best way to "not become a ghost" is to learn anchoring skills before venturing into the Utah backcountry.

Are you an Aussie? When you coming out?

Tom

[Iceaxe]

please don't chop those bolts

Relying on bolts being in place in any canyon on the Colorado Plateau is a game of Russian roulette... and in the case of Robbers Roost you are playing with extra bullets.


42547

[Brian in SLC]

The best way to "not become a ghost" is to learn anchoring skills before venturing into the Utah backcountry.

Sure, good advice.

IMHO, on the flip side of that, if you remove a perfectly good bolted anchor, and, someone gets hurt or killed, then you own some of that responsibility.

[jwurst]

At the Bluejohn big drop you can always reverse the route and exit up the West Fork or one of the many other exits if you can't figure out an anchor.

But really, basic anchor building is more of an idea list than a skill. Make sure you know how to wrap a piece of webbing around a rock or arch and remember you can explore both up-canyon and down (using a meat anchor) to find rocks. And that you can stack rocks or bury them to make them secure. Just that will get you through almost everything. Techniques for handling little emergencies that you might encounter along the way are much more complicated but you need to know them even when rappelling from a bolt.

[P.J.]

Actually, I have done it both ways on several occasions, and it is a LOT easier going down main fork than up. Down is a pretty easy slither stem and slide. Up is is a real bear. If going up, tether your pack so it hangs below you and doesn't get in the way. I've gone down east fork and up main a few times, and down main and up west a few times. Of course, west is the least interesting, so you see the best of all if you go down east and up main, but going up main is a pain.

Nat

I guess it depends on whom you ask. I agree with Tom. I've also gone up and down the main fork, and for ME, I had an easier time going UP on my second trip than DOWN the first time I went. I tied my pack to a short rope on my waist and pulled it up after each up climb. But taking technical advice from a newbie like me is probably not too wise :wink:
It's been a while since I've been to the lower narrows above the big drop. We went over the big drop, but if I remember correctly, it might not be a bad idea to leave a hand line for beginners at the entrance to the lower narrows (by the S log) if you plan on going back up. As I said, we didn't come back up, so my memory could be wrong. After doing the entire main fork and down Horseshoe (after biking from Horseshoe to the top of Bluejohn), I can say the next time I take someone to see Bluejohn and the Great Gallery, I'll hike up Horseshoe to see the pictographs, then drive around to the top of Bluejohn (or vice-versa). That full loop was a bear in the heat (not to mention I'm a wuss anyway).

[mr. incognito]

Sure, good advice.

IMHO, on the flip side of that, if you remove a perfectly good bolted anchor, and, someone gets hurt or killed, then you own some of that responsibility.
Surely Aron Ralston would have died without those particular bolts at the big drop as he might not have been able to set an anchor one handed or in the near-shock weakened condition he was in for that rappel. I'm curious, is a natural anchor possible there? Is wads of webbing preferable to a few less conspicuous bolts in this particular location? I know some of you have the pull all bolts/leave nothing mentality and I am all for "if you can leave it natural and leave nothing" view, but for me safety trumps aesthetic. I for one am sincerely hoping those bolts are there and I don't have to rig an anchor that might be less safe than a few bolts considering all options at this one location. I wasn't able to thoroughly check for possible anchors when I was there. I am hoping not to start the bolt VS. no-bolts-ever general flame war, I just want opinions on the big drop of Blue John...

[ratagonia]

Surely Aron Ralston would have died without those particular bolts at the big drop as he might not have been able to set an anchor one handed or in the near-shock weakened condition he was in for that rappel. I'm curious, is a natural anchor possible there? Is wads of webbing preferable to a few less conspicuous bolts in this particular location? I know some of you have the pull all bolts/leave nothing mentality and I am all for "if you can leave it natural and leave nothing" view, but for me safety trumps aesthetic. I for one am sincerely hoping those bolts are there and I don't have to rig an anchor that might be less safe than a few bolts considering all options at this one location. I wasn't able to thoroughly check for possible anchors when I was there. I am hoping not to start the bolt VS. no-bolts-ever general flame war, I just want opinions on the big drop of Blue John...

Ah, excellent Least Common Denominator argument... yes, we should dumb the canyons down so people who just cut off one hand can do them - ya know, because it happens so often.

Yes, Aron would have been unlikely to build his own anchor there. But ANY pre-built anchor would have worked for him, not necessarily bolted.

BOOP! :nono:

Try again.

Tom :moses:

[canyoncaver]

I am hoping not to start the bolt VS. no-bolts-ever general flame war,

I think maybe you just did. :roll:

[mr. incognito]

Ah, excellent Least Common Denominator argument... yes, we should dumb the canyons down so people who just cut off one hand can do them - ya know, because it happens so often.
Yes, Aron would have been unlikely to build his own anchor there. But ANY pre-built anchor would have worked for him, not necessarily bolted.
BOOP! :nono:
Try again.
Tom :moses:

Hi Tom, I didn't get a few key questions answered and you might be the guy in the know...Is there a bomber natural anchor for the rappel of the big drop in place? If not what are the possibilities for one there? You didn't mention if you preferred leaving ratty webbing there or if the bolts would be less conspicuous at this particular spot...

My thoughts...since this canyon due to its notoriety as Aron's trap is bound to see a few less technically experienced chaps and gals stumbling down it, wouldn't it be apropos to have secure pro in place (relatively considering any anchor can weather and degrade over time and anyone with a brain should check before trusting their life to anything) I am aware of your "leave it natural" ethic from the few posts I have read of yours and applaud that effort. I also am a wilderness advocate and would like to see things left pristine so generations can enjoy the same grandeur. I am certainly not saying let's bolt every drop. Far from it. But like I said safety trumps aesthetic and if there is not a reasonable natural anchor option would you begrudge us a few bolts so people can enjoy this spot?

However, I wanted to point out by your logic that ADA wheelchair ramps shouldn't be on buildings by stairs, if someone isn't up to the challenge they don't belong. Handicapped fellows are less likely by percentage to use any given building or "Least Common denominator" as you put it. (Please don't take this seriously merely an example to illustrate how "only the strong or desert savvy should be able to go canyoneering mentality seems like elitism) Truth is many users of all experience levels WILL probably use this particular canyon at some point due to its inadvertent fame...Also it is less technically challenging and a good place for new people to start perhaps? warmest regards (and no offense meant) Mr. Incognito

[trackrunner]

Is wads of webbing preferable

bolts can have wads of webbing too. IMO wads of webbing is a poorly constructed anchor for bolts or natural. reconstruct the anchor in a "less conspicuous way" for bolts or natural anchor. if you don't know how to tie webbing for a strong anchor you should take up another sport or take a professional class to learn how.

[mr. incognito]

bolts can have wads of webbing too. IMO wads of webbing is a poorly constructed anchor for bolts or natural. reconstruct the anchor in a "less conspicuous way" for bolts or natural anchor. if you don't know how to tie webbing for a strong anchor you should take up another sport or take a professional class to learn how.
Excellent point and I agree, by wads of webbing I meant several different groups leaving their webbing spoor because of UV damage concerns etc. Not because someone tied an epic granny knot. I was pointing out that there are place on Earth like K2 that will likely never see anyone not very proficient in their hobby visiting but I think Blue John is not on that list due to its ease. I wouldn't want to see another "Nutty Putty" type restriction due to multiple accidents at a popular spot

[trackrunner]

by wads of webbing I meant several different groups leaving their webbing spoor because of UV damage concerns etc. Not because someone tied an epic granny knot.

again I've seen this common at bolts and natural anchors. it's not restricted to one type. cut it off and retie a good piece.

for the record I'm pro good anchor placement bolt or natural


I was pointing out that there are place on Earth like K2 that will likely never see anyone not very proficient in their hobby visiting

I've read some debate among some great mountaineers suggestion the large tragedy on K2 was because a lot of people were not proficient in 8000m mountaineering to minimize the risk of that type of an accident.

[ratagonia]

Hi Tom, I didn't get a few key questions answered and you might be the guy in the know...Is there a bomber natural anchor for the rappel of the big drop in place? If not what are the possibilities for one there? You didn't mention if you preferred leaving ratty webbing there or if the bolts would be less conspicuous at this particular spot...

My thoughts...since this canyon due to its notoriety as Aron's trap is bound to see a few less technically experienced chaps and gals stumbling down it, wouldn't it be apropos to have secure pro in place (relatively considering any anchor can weather and degrade over time and anyone with a brain should check before trusting their life to anything) I am aware of your "leave it natural" ethic from the few posts I have read of yours and applaud that effort. I also am a wilderness advocate and would like to see things left pristine so generations can enjoy the same grandeur. I am certainly not saying let's bolt every drop. Far from it. But like I said safety trumps aesthetic and if there is not a reasonable natural anchor option would you begrudge us a few bolts so people can enjoy this spot?

However, I wanted to point out by your logic that ADA wheelchair ramps shouldn't be on buildings by stairs, if someone isn't up to the challenge they don't belong. Handicapped fellows are less likely by percentage to use any given building or "Least Common denominator" as you put it. (Please don't take this seriously merely an example to illustrate how "only the strong or desert savvy should be able to go canyoneering mentality seems like elitism) Truth is many users of all experience levels WILL probably use this particular canyon at some point due to its inadvertent fame...Also it is less technically challenging and a good place for new people to start perhaps? warmest regards (and no offense meant) Mr. Incognito

For one who does not wish to stir things up, you sure offer some provocative questions.

I have never done the "Hand-off" section of Bluejohn, so I am in the best position to pontificate about this particular drop - no actual facts.

The ADA does not apply to Wilderness Areas. Do we need to add a wheelchair ramp to that rappel? :roll:

Building natural anchors is not a difficult, arcane mystery requiring years of study at the feet of a guru. A one-day class with any of many providers in Utah plus some practice would put most people into the "safe" category. Thus, the "elite" covers a large percentage of the Utah canyoneering community. :rockon:

Are the bolts safe? I have no idea, but, bolts are hard to place in soft sandstone, and difficult to inspect until they are really, really bad. If the bolts are no good, what are our clueless newbies going to do.

I do not know what the area looks like, but the Roost is in general friendly to natural(ish) anchors, so I would be surprised if there is not materials to construct a naturalish anchor there.

I usually bring huge wads of gnarly webbing to put on every natural anchor I build... :shock1: NOT! Anchors natural and bolted tend to gather wads of webbing. This is another education issue that we work hard on. Be part of the solution.

It is not a good "introductory canyon". It offers very little canyoneering for a very long slog in the soft sand. Yes, it will see a lot of action this summer, and there will be more rescues there. Perhaps some visitors will expect to find Aron's rope still in place? And signs, water supply, an escalator back up to the car...

Safety trumps aesthetics? We have no argument that safety is important, and there are canyons that deserve bolts to keep the newbies from killing themselves (it's called Zions), but natural anchors are not less-safe than bolts, and we argue as an overall system, teaching newbs that there will be bolts at all the drops is an unsafe practice.

Tom :moses:

[mr. incognito]

again I've seen this common at bolts and natural anchors. it's not restricted to one type. cut it off and retie a good piece.

for the record I'm pro good anchor placement bolt or natural
I've read some debate among some great mountaineers suggestion the large tragedy on K2 was because a lot of people were not proficient in 8000m mountaineering to minimize the risk of that type of an accident.

Certainly any accident can be armchaired by any expert or layperson, and I agree perhaps the tragedy on K2 was because they weren't proficient enough, but they were proficient to get themselves way up there to get in a jam. In general I am trying to say that it is less likely that a noob will be stumbling around K2 than Bluejohn...


I also am for the record, pro good anchor placement bolt or natural

[mr. incognito]

For one who does not wish to stir things up, you sure offer some provocative questions.

I have never done the "Hand-off" section of Bluejohn, so I am in the best position to pontificate about this particular drop - no actual facts.

The ADA does not apply to Wilderness Areas. Do we need to add a wheelchair ramp to that rappel? :roll:

Building natural anchors is not a difficult, arcane mystery requiring years of study at the feet of a guru. A one-day class with any of many providers in Utah plus some practice would put most people into the "safe" category. Thus, the "elite" covers a large percentage of the Utah canyoneering community. :rockon:

Are the bolts safe? I have no idea, but, bolts are hard to place in soft sandstone, and difficult to inspect until they are really, really bad. If the bolts are no good, what are our clueless newbies going to do.

I do not know what the area looks like, but the Roost is in general friendly to natural(ish) anchors, so I would be surprised if there is not materials to construct a naturalish anchor there.

I usually bring huge wads of gnarly webbing to put on every natural anchor I build... :shock1: NOT! Anchors natural and bolted tend to gather wads of webbing. This is another education issue that we work hard on. Be part of the solution.

It is not a good "introductory canyon". It offers very little canyoneering for a very long slog in the soft sand. Yes, it will see a lot of action this summer, and there will be more rescues there. Perhaps some visitors will expect to find Aron's rope still in place? And signs, water supply, an escalator back up to the car...

Safety trumps aesthetics? We have no argument that safety is important, and there are canyons that deserve bolts to keep the newbies from killing themselves (it's called Zions), but natural anchors are not less-safe than bolts, and we argue as an overall system, teaching newbs that there will be bolts at all the drops is an unsafe practice.

Tom :moses:
I agree with you that no one should just assume there will be pro at any given point and if it is there it should be checked or relied on as if suspect, and everyone should be prepared to make their own anchor if possible, you just can't rely on bolts (especially with a few folks who are choppers out there:wink:.) I was merely inquiring about the current conditions and your opinion on the matter.

Hopefully there won't be any more accidents there because of good info on conditions in the canyons like particular difficulty, technical level required etc. for the aspiring noobs on helpful little sites such as this. I don't particularly want to hear about another doom and gloom this summer rather I prefer excellent trip reports.
Actually the elitism thing and the ADA example (not to be taken seriously) were a retort to the:haha: perceived snarkiness in your first reply but it is sooo difficult to perceive connotation in a forum I actually have no idea what the tone of that comment was meant to be...

[ratagonia]

The best way to "not become a ghost" is to learn anchoring skills before venturing into the Utah backcountry.

Are you an Aussie? When you coming out?

Tom

Snarky? You call this snarky?

I guess it could be, it is also explicitly true. And rather simplistic, yes?

Before doing something, you should gain the minimum skills required to do so safely.

I hardly find this an elitist statement, or snarky, at least in this form. :haha:

Tom

[mr. incognito]

Ah, excellent Least Common Denominator argument... yes, we should dumb the canyons down so people who just cut off one hand can do them - ya know, because it happens so often.
Yes, Aron would have been unlikely to build his own anchor there. But ANY pre-built anchor would have worked for him, not necessarily bolted.
BOOP! :nono:
Try again.
Tom :moses:
Actually I meant this one was the snarky one...the other is good advice.

[canyoncaver]

Safety trumps aesthetics? We have no argument that safety is important, and there are canyons that deserve bolts to keep the newbies from killing themselves (it's called Zions), but natural anchors are not less-safe than bolts, and we argue as an overall system, teaching newbs that there will be bolts at all the drops is an unsafe practice.

Hi Tom,

I agree with every statement you made in your post except this last one which I have some issues with.

I have rappelled off many natural anchors that were not as safe as a well-placed pair of bolts. Not saying that bolts are automatically safer, just that I could have placed bolts that were safer than the particular cairn, chock, or deadman in a particular situation. I have also rappelled off many, many natural anchors that were safer than bolts. However, some natural anchor situations force you to compromise from the ideal. Many times there is only enough material available to make a marginally-safe anchor. Many improvised anchors in Utah canyons are safe enough for rappelling, but not so good for ascending, and nowhere near rescue-ready.

I am sure that you would place a bolt if you thought it the only safe solution, and in fact I have seen photos of you doing it on your own site. The question becomes; why are only certain canyoneers qualified or approved to make this decision while others are not. Who decides who is worthy to be in the "I place a bolt when I deem it necessary" club? I'm sure that whoever placed the bolts at Aron's rappel deemed it necessary, or they wouldn't have spent the time, energy, and money to do it. I am playing devil's advocate here, but they probably thought it their best option for their skill level and using their experience and judgement whatever that happened to be. This is exactly what any of the "elite" no-bolt canyoneers do as well. It's just that the perspective is different. However, you only half-jokingly put those Blue John bolts on the list for removal, and you haven't even been to the site to see the situation! This is what comes off as elitist, absolutist, and dogmatic.

I am not disrespecting you. Your beta was greater than any other catalyst for getting me into the sport and I respect your opinion. You just need to realize how these heavy-handed comments from the "Emperor" can come across.

Your comment about Zion caused me to ask another question; As Robber's Roost becomes more popular, and hence more and more like Zion(s), will it someday become appropriate to bolt it up? You know, "to keep the newbies from killing themselves?"

What is the threshold, and who gets to make that decision and when?

[ratagonia]

Hi Tom,

I agree with every statement you made in your post except this last one which I have some issues with.

I have rappelled off many natural anchors that were not as safe as a well-placed pair of bolts. Not saying that bolts are automatically safer, just that I could have placed bolts that were safer than the particular cairn, chock, or deadman in a particular situation. I have also rappelled off many, many natural anchors that were safer than bolts. However, some natural anchor situations force you to compromise from the ideal. Many times there is only enough material available to make a marginally-safe anchor. Many improvised anchors in Utah canyons are safe enough for rappelling, but not so good for ascending, and nowhere near rescue-ready.

I am sure that you would place a bolt if you thought it the only safe solution, and in fact I have seen photos of you doing it on your own site. The question becomes; why are only certain canyoneers qualified or approved to make this decision while others are not. Who decides who is worthy to be in the "I place a bolt when I deem it necessary" club? I'm sure that whoever placed the bolts at Aron's rappel deemed it necessary, or they wouldn't have spent the time, energy, and money to do it. I am playing devil's advocate here, but they probably thought it their best option for their skill level and using their experience and judgement whatever that happened to be. This is exactly what any of the "elite" no-bolt canyoneers do as well. It's just that the perspective is different. However, you only half-jokingly put those Blue John bolts on the list for removal, and you haven't even been to the site to see the situation! This is what comes off as elitist, absolutist, and dogmatic.

I am not disrespecting you. Your beta was greater than any other catalyst for getting me into the sport and I respect your opinion. You just need to realize how these heavy-handed comments from the "Emperor" can come across.

Your comment about Zion caused me to ask another question; As Robber's Roost becomes more popular, and hence more and more like Zion(s), will it someday become appropriate to bolt it up? You know, "to keep the newbies from killing themselves?"

What is the threshold, and who gets to make that decision and when?

I claim the high horse of the RIGHT to pontificate on the forums about what bolts should or should not be placed. (Notice that this is a very small claim).

I fully support your right (and everyone's right) to place bolts when they consider it appropriate to the safety of their party. As a consequence of that support, I wish for the same support for anyone removing bolts they consider inappropriate. I suggest it is good manners to inform people of your actions in this domain, however, since I am a public figure I am subject to a higher standard in the information category than people who do not wish to get into the tussle.

So, my claim really is not that I, El Emperor, is the only one that can make these decisions. Anyone can take action, and it would be nice if they were accountable for their actions.

Bogley is a "club" with club rules. One of the rules is Tom is arrogant, elitist etc. mostly for fun. I am disappointed you do not find it to be fun... and I realize that the style I use here can be off-putting.

When I placed bolts (and when I place them now) I do so because I considered it a public service. I'm sure the persons in Bluejohn took half-an-hour to place bolts there as a public service. It is possible that they placed bolts because it was their only option, as they did not have the skills to build a safe anchor there otherwise.

There is a discussion somewhere else that discusses the education problem. The claim (whether you buy it or not) is that having bolts as anchors teaches beginners that when the going gets tough, the tough pull out a drill. Pulling out a drill in soft Navajo sandstone is not a powerful tool - first you have to carry a bolt kit, and have enough bolts; then you have to be able to get in good bolts in the soft stone. This is not a good solution. By removing "unnecessary bolts" from areas Tom has declared "natural anchor only", yes, we 'force' people into learning how to construct natural anchors. Natural anchor knowledge will get you through canyons much better than a bolt here and there.

Not the best summary of the argument... sorry, got stuff to do.

Zion is less condusive to natural anchors than other places in Utah. Zion has an extended history of a lot of bolts - other places have a history, but neither extended nor of a LOT of bolts. Mostly a bolt here and there.

Outside Zion, there are places where I consider bolts appropriate. In the Squeeze, unfortunately, is a well-known canyon that is all bolted up. For me, I would love to take out all or most of the bolts, and do it au natural, but it is too well-known as a bolted up Zion-like canyon, so I might remove a few here and there - but I don't get down there much. Bluejohn is a good case for leaving them in place - because we suspect the noobs will descend on the canyon and might not be able to build a deadman there, even if it is easy. Neon I would have left the bolts at the Cathedral, and chopped the ones higher in the canyon. Cathedral in the Desert, I put in a good bolt to work with the nest of bad to mediocre ones in place, because again, this specific anchor is used by non-canyoneers. I put in some bolts in Zion (and will this year) to open up some canyons that otherwise are difficult or annoying, because there is a shortage of canyons to do in Zion, in the spring. Etc. I apply principles, I do not apply rules.

Summary: we all get to make the decisions, it is a group thing, a muddling thing. I lobby hard to try to enroll people in my viewpoint, and thank you for the coaching on how I could do so better, without pissing off quite so many people.

Tom :moses:

[Brian in SLC]

Interesting. Always good to hear the fresh meat's perspective...ha ha.

Let me interject by saying, after seeing the f'n aweome piles of rocks that folks use in Pleiades as rappel anchors, that, huge stack of rock, and, heavily contructed anchors made from natural materials are NOT "natural anchors". They are what they are: constructed anchors, built anchors. Just 'cause you make a building out of rocks, doesn't mean is a natural object.

The threshold? Well, fundamentally, folks have to be responsible for their own safety. But, if you make a choice that effects the whole community, ie, you remove a well bolted anchor, then, I think morally and ethically you've injected yourself into the equation at some level. You're an active participant, not, just spragging away on the 'net.

And, replacing a bolted anchor, with a huge stack of rocks with 50 feet of sling sticking out of it just seems silly.

Pretty funny, but, my shots of Pleiades and those silly stacks of rocks have generated a number of pretty funny comments by long time, very experienced climbing friends.

Anyhoo, yeah, get some skills, including building these huge unnatural anchors in our beautiful canyons. Make sure too to leave a gob of webbing, and, hopefully not too many rope grooves in the rock. After all, a couple of well placed 3/8" diameter holes is such an eyesore and impact...not to mention just ruining the rock stackers fun.

Stay safe.

-Brian in SLC

[jman]

You're an active participant, not, just spragging away on the 'net.



spragging?

Definition.com "To prop or sustain with a sprag" ?

sprag?

Definition.com "a wooden prop used to support the roof of a mine"

I don't understand! lol

[Brian in SLC]

spragging?

Spraying + bragging = spragging.

[ratagonia]

Spraying + bragging = spragging.

Kinda like propping up tons of rock with a flimsy used 2x4???

T

[jman]

Kinda like propping up tons of rock with a flimsy used 2x4???

T

well yeah...that makes clear-as-mud sense.

But it's true, the "natural" anchors in Pleiades are gnarly.

[moabmatt]

But it's true, the "natural" anchors in Pleiades are gnarly.

What's wrong with the anchors in Pleiades?

Regarding the bolted anchor in BJ, you can get bomber knot chocks in a crack that's just a couple feet left (LDC) of the bolts.

[jman]

Either the 3rd or 4th rappel last year in October, my group and I were able to pull out the anchor. The webbing was around a rock which was put into a small rock crack and we were able to pull it out with relative easy - completely out. We just lifted it maybe 2-3 inches and it was out of the rock. There was a much better rock about two feet above that we wrapped it around instead. Much better!

And when we got to the last rappel, the deadman anchor was quite exposed (the bottom of the deadman snd webbing were exposed) so we recovered it.

That's the second trip where we had to improve the anchors there.

[Iceaxe]

Regarding the bolted anchor in BJ, you can get bomber knot chocks in a crack that's just a couple feet left (LDC) of the bolts.

Matt, are you guiding BJ? if so, I can send you some clients. I'm get at least one request a day for information on guiding the "Ralston Route".

[ratagonia]

Either the 3rd or 4th rappel last year in October, my group and I were able to pull out the anchor. The webbing was around a rock which was put into a small rock crack and we were able to pull it out with relative easy - completely out. We just lifted it maybe 2-3 inches and it was out of the rock. There was a much better rock about two feet above that we wrapped it around instead. Much better!

And when we got to the last rappel, the deadman anchor was quite exposed (the bottom of the deadman snd webbing were exposed) so we recovered it.

That's the second trip where we had to improve the anchors there.

And...

What's your point, Jman?

When you go through a canyon, you should inspect the anchors, and rebuild if they do not meet your standards. If you want, you can hire people to come along and do this for you - Matt can probably set you up for that, in selected canyons.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

What's wrong with the anchors in Pleiades?

They are ghetto...

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=42612&d=1300659388

42612

Here ya go, though, if'n someone wanted to know the proper location for a nice bolted anchor, RP is pointin' out the spot.

[Brian in SLC]

What's your point, Jman?

When you go through a canyon, you should inspect the anchors, and rebuild if they do not meet your standards. If you want, you can hire people to come along and do this for you - Matt can probably set you up for that, in selected canyons.

The point is, with properly well done fixed anchors, they'd be bomber, good to go, low impact, would be great for everyone...

Instead of a bunch of junk.

'Bout 10 minutes with a power drill and that canyon would be buff!

Ha ha. Just kiddin'. Sorta.

Nice thing about doing it in the winter, and climbing out, is, ice screws work great in that deep, solid ice. No need to just trust all that junky crap in there.

[jman]

And...

What's your point, Jman?

When you go through a canyon, you should inspect the anchors, and rebuild if they do not meet your standards. If you want, you can hire people to come along and do this for you - Matt can probably set you up for that, in selected canyons.

Tom

Hey....good idea. They (yourself included) can setup the canyons, and I'll prepare delicious dinner in exchange. That's a awesome trade if ya ask me. Do you guys carry the ropes and my personal disposable waste bag too?

Btw Tom, I think you missed the part where I said, we REBUILT the anchor, because it was unsafe...

[trackrunner]

Either the 3rd or 4th rappel last year in October, my group and I were able to pull out the anchor. The webbing was around a rock which was put into a small rock crack and we were able to pull it out with relative easy - completely out. We just lifted it maybe 2-3 inches and it was out of the rock. There was a much better rock about two feet above that we wrapped it around instead. Much better!

were you able to pull the rock chock anchor out in the direction of the pull/load or was it in the oppoiste direction?

or was it not even wrapped around a rock chock

[ratagonia]

Hey....good idea. They (yourself included) can setup the canyons, and I'll prepare delicious dinner in exchange. That's a awesome trade if ya ask me. Do you guys carry the ropes and my personal disposable waste bag too?

Btw Tom, I think you missed the part where I said, we REBUILT the anchor, because it was unsafe...


Either the 3rd or 4th rappel last year in October, my group and I were able to pull out the anchor. The webbing was around a rock which was put into a small rock crack and we were able to pull it out with relative easy - completely out. We just lifted it maybe 2-3 inches and it was out of the rock. There was a much better rock about two feet above that we wrapped it around instead. Much better!

And when we got to the last rappel, the deadman anchor was quite exposed (the bottom of the deadman snd webbing were exposed) so we recovered it.

That's the second trip where we had to improve the anchors there.

No, I got that. It just sounded (original above) to my ear that you were expressing resentment that you had to work the anchors, TWICE!!! Perhaps, in person, I would realize that your mood in this was ecstatic, that you got to express your 'naturalish' anchor skills twice in a short period of time.

T :moses:

[moab mark]

They are ghetto...

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=42612&d=1300659388

42612

Here ya go, though, if'n someone wanted to know the proper location for a nice bolted anchor, RP is pointin' out the spot.

We seemed to of got off track from Blue John. I have only done Pleaides when it is just a trickle but when this canyon is a real class C I would imagine that big pile of rocks has got water flowing around if not over it? I think Oldno 7 did it when it was rippin maybe he can chime in but it seems if that anchor was knocked all over the place and the water was rippin you might have a slight problem. As I remember there was not a lot of other area around to try to build another anchor?

Mark

[P.J.]

I agree with you that no one should just assume there will be pro at any given point and if it is there it should be checked or relied on as if suspect, and everyone should be prepared to make their own anchor if possible, you just can't rely on bolts (especially with a few folks who are choppers out there:wink:.) I was merely inquiring about the current conditions and your opinion on the matter.

Hopefully there won't be any more accidents there because of good info on conditions in the canyons like particular difficulty, technical level required etc. for the aspiring noobs on helpful little sites such as this. I don't particularly want to hear about another doom and gloom this summer rather I prefer excellent trip reports.
Actually the elitism thing and the ADA example (not to be taken seriously) were a retort to the:haha: perceived snarkiness in your first reply but it is sooo difficult to perceive connotation in a forum I actually have no idea what the tone of that comment was meant to be...
I don't EVEN want to get involved, but I agree that when it's between 2 people who don't know each other and online, it's nothing like speaking face to face, seeing and hearing each inflection of every word. I've probably offended people in forums without even realizing I've done it.
What was this thread about? Oh yeah, Bluejohn.
I think the less we all leave behind the better, whatever the anchor (I'm trying to learn all the natural anchor techniques) I believe it's each persons responsibility before they go to be ready to build ALL their anchors, cause you never no what you'll come across. I'll shut up now because I don't know crap.
Tom, you're awesome and have given me more priceless advice (indirectly and directly) than you'll probably ever know.
Incognito, you sound very rational and wiser than I'll ever be.
Bogley seems to be a collection of awesome people (I hope that this all didn't sound sarcastic, because it wasn't meant to be- more proof that it's hard to know someone you don't know :nod:)
Canyoneering is fun.

[oldno7]

They are ghetto...

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=42612&d=1300659388

42612

Here ya go, though, if'n someone wanted to know the proper location for a nice bolted anchor, RP is pointin' out the spot.

I would never partake of the bolt wars, but if I did, this would be a great spot for one in class "C" conditions.:2thumbs:

[Brian in SLC]

Either the 3rd or 4th rappel last year in October, my group and I were able to pull out the anchor. The webbing was around a rock which was put into a small rock crack and we were able to pull it out with relative easy - completely out. We just lifted it maybe 2-3 inches and it was out of the rock. There was a much better rock about two feet above that we wrapped it around instead.

Probably could be carved out into it's own thread...!

Yeah, after the second rappel, you walk over to canyon right, and, there's a tatty webbing set of anchors. One was a loose block that looked semi solid on the left, and, a really not great shifty pile of rocks up a tad on the right. We retied webbing that had come loose and equilized them, and, being the hugest, I rapped off first. We dropped the short distance to the next level, and, pulled our ropes there. The ice on canyon left was thick enough to just climb up and out on (with a fat hand jam and stem in a corner). We left our rope fixed of the sling on the block at the next level.

Sheeze, I took over 200 photo's in there, and, don't have a shot of that manky 3rd rap anchor.

If there wasn't some walking distance between the first and second drop, you could probably do the whole she-bang with a long single static line... None of the rappels are that long. With flow, pulling the ropes would be an issue, though.

Neat gig.

[moabmatt]

If there wasn't some walking distance between the first and second drop, you could probably do the whole she-bang with a long single static line... None of the rappels are that long. With flow, pulling the ropes would be an issue, though.

For what it's worth, here's what we do...

At the first rappel, we macrame the tree at head level on canyon left. At the second rappel we run a 40' piece of webbing from the LARGE pine tree on canyon left (which is about 30' back from the lip). At the bottom of this 25' rap we make a decision, either stay on the rope and rap the next 10' drop in the watercourse (if the flow isn't too strong, ie usually after the first week of June) or pull the rope and re-rig off those blocks on canyon right (during really strong flows, ie late May). When the flows have subsided for the season (after May/early June) we pull our webbing off those blocks on canyon right and just chain the 25' and the 10' drops together using the LARGE pine as the anchor. We pull the webbing off the blocks to reduce the visual impact since hikers can see that webbing while standing at the top of the second rappel. The next rappel, the overhanging one, we anchor with webbing and rapide around a large horn that pinches against an adjacent rock. This is the first anchor you come to which we leave fixed. It's bomber and tidy. The next rappel is anchored on canyon left with webbing and rapide in a pinch between a huge boulder and the canyon wall. It's bomber and tidy, too. We use this anchor to rap all the way to the top of the last rappel, where the Deadman anchor is. This rappel includes the 20' of downclimbable boulders which then lead into the nice flume for the remaining 30'. I've noticed some folks set up an intermediate anchor at the bottom of the boulder section and start of the flume. This is probably the chockstone anchor that jman removed? It's definitely not necessary to stop there, nor is it a very comfortable place to linger due to all the spray there. The third and last anchor we leave fixed in the canyon is the Deadman. I've been in there during some very high flows and have never seen the water come close to compromising the anchor. Each year in May or June we rebuild that anchor. From the Deadman we use two independent strands of webbing which come to a common point at a rapide. From here we use one strand of webbing going to the lip with a rapide. We use the two independent strands for redundancy and we bring them to a single point to facilitate the periodic changing out of the single strand going to the lip. While the water doesn't reach the Deadman anchor, it does batter the single strand going to the lip so we change that one more frequently. From day one we rigged this last rappel this way so that once you pull the ropes, the previously tensioned single strand of webbing falls back from the lip, into the creek and out of view from those below. Believe it or not, there are many folks who hike to the base of this waterfall to hang out and they have been doing so long before any of us were there (that's how that trail in to/out of the canyon came to be). They'd rather not see slings draped over the lip from the Deadman or a pair of bolts and slings where RP is enthusiastically pointing.

Personally, I don't find Deadman anchors ghetto, but that's just my opinion. I'll admit that a proliferation of multicolored tat is ghetto there, but the anchor itself is fine. Some might even see a well built Deadman with minimal slings and hardware as a thing of beauty!? I try to keep that anchor aesthetic, though it's inevitable that others will add webbing, add rocks, add hardware...to the point it looks trashy.

So, in summary, there are three fixed anchors we maintain; at the top of the overhang, the bottom of the overhang and the Deadman. Every one of them is bomber and, dare I say, elegant. Despite only three fixed anchors in the canyon, the longest rap is 65' and that's from the bottom of the overhang to the Deadman. By the way, we do retrieve our 40' piece of rope from the pine at the top of the second rap on our way back to the trailhead so nothing is left behind that is visible to hikers.

[moabmatt]

Matt, are you guiding BJ? if so, I can send you some clients.

Thanks for the leads, Shane. Hate to sound greedy, but they'd better be prepared to pay a LOT of money! I've endured that slog twice and I'm still trying to figure out what on earth possessed me to go that second time? Must've been a cute girl or something...

[Brian in SLC]

Personally, I don't find Deadman anchors ghetto, but that's just my opinion. I'll admit that a proliferation of multicolored tat is ghetto there, but the anchor itself is fine.

The deadman anchor didn't do so well throughout the winter. The large stack of rocks was kinda loose and jumbley, and, when I pulled on the sling, it came partly out. We stacked a few rocks onto it to shore it up a tad, but, with a super solid ice screw, I wasn't worried. The smaller stack seemed kind of solid, but...we didn't really test it much. We were coming up anyhow.

Over time, as that stack of rocks gets loose, and the occasional flood hits the rocks, then, I wonder if the rocks will be gone.

That's good stuff, Matt, and, I appreciate the dialog and your POV on the topic. I think keeping the anchors non visible to hikers is super. A well camo'd bolted anchor can do that too. If you located the anchor a bit more around a corner, then, you'll get the dreaded rope grooves. You solution is pretty good for visual impact/viewshed.

Was wondering what that middle fixed anchor was. Buried in the ice, and, seemed pretty burly. The rapide was slightly open, which, was weird. Easy to tighten.

I don't find unnaturally large stacks of rock with slings sticking out of them a particularly elegant anchor, or, a thing of beauty. When you're not lazy, then, they need to be dug up and re-buried, and, doing that kind of heavy handed construction in a canyon just doesn't jibe with my wilderness ethics (ha ha). As a community anchor in a popular canyon...well...sooner or later someone will trust it, and, it'll blow and they'll get hurt. These types of anchors fail in the climbing world all the time (read ANAM from the last 10 years and see the accidents...there are plenty).

I think from a liability standpoint...guiding clients...wow...I wouldn't but, I don't have a dog in that hunt. If you had an accident...well, that's a huge risk for you.

Thanks for the time, Matt, and, appreciate the info you gave us in our failed attempt last June.

Cheers!

[Iceaxe]

FWIW: I think you have to complete the hellish slog out Horseshoe to really appreciate what Ralston did.

[wasatchghost]

Anyone know how difficult it is to re-ascend the lower slot from the big drop? Don't have any equipment for a rappel, but I would really love to see lower Bluejohn

[canyoncaver]

Anyone know how difficult it is to re-ascend the lower slot from the big drop? Don't have any equipment for a rappel, but I would really love to see lower Bluejohn

It's not too bad, but there is a moderate upclimb and ledge-walk required.

[wasatchghost]

I was there 4/17/11. There is an anchor with a sling and rappel ring already set up but I'm not sure I would trust the set up as it is now (we didn't rappel). There was also a three-bolt setup which i think is more commonly used, but you will have to bring webbing. There was also a single bolt with a rap ring but I wouldn't trust it because there is no redundancy.