Is Upper Waterholes on private property?

[Bobuddy]

Hi everyone, I have another question on Waterholes Slot Canyon (South of Page, AZ) for those that might have information.

My husband and I have been to Lower and Middle Waterholes a few times and last year attempted to find Upper Waterholes (and I believe this is also called Canyon X? or Secret Canyon? on Overland Tours). We had cryptic directions from a German blog site and we got close (as we later found out) but did not find it. On the way back, we ran into a group of guys that we exchanged emails with - they contacted us a few days later that they found Upper Waterholes. They emailed us the GPS coordinates but also told us that they encountered the Hummer Tours group out of Page that told them they were on private property and could not be there. I am unable to locate any truth in this statement - anyone know?

We had permits from the Navajo Nation - and we personally told them that we were going to Upper Waterholes - and they did not say anything about it being on private property.

Thanks

Laurie

[trackrunner]

best to consider Navajo land as private property. seek permission first to go hiking, you will need a permit. if you do not get a permit and are caught you can face the same or similar legal consequences of trespassing.

I believe all of water holes is on Navajo land. you will need a permit. There are some roads that lead to private homes, I assume Navajo residents, on top of the waterholes drainage near upper waterholes.

you probably wouldn't like someone walking back and forth through your rose garden lost and un unintentionally chasing farm animals on your ranch. I'd recommend respecting their privacy or seeking additional permission.

Instead hike in from the bottom and avoid walking in someone's back or front yards. I do know Michael Kelsey has a route description for upper water holes in his books. Start where the highway crosses the canyon drainage and hike up canyon towards upper waterholes. Let me know if you have more questions I’ll look up the route description for you.

[Philippe]

Hi Bobuddy,

I am leaving about 5 miles from Versailles..... but in France :wink:

I have visited Upper WaterHoles canyon by myself in Spring 2008 (you can see some of my pictures here (http://www.phschuler.com/usa2006/WATER%20HOLES%20CANYON/UPPER%20SLOT/index.html), if I have to repostprocess them as I feel they are too much orange because of the white balance). This slot is called "Best slot" by Kelsey and "Secret Canyon" by Hummer Slot Canyons tours who managed to have an excusive right of visit for this slot canyon.

To visit the Water Holes drainage you need a permit from the Navajo Nation that you can buy at the entrance booth of Upper Antelope Canyon. When they give you the permit, they also give you a map of Waterholes drainage where they draw with a stabilo boss what area is allowed with the permit and what area is forbidden. Unfortunately, Upper Water holes canyon is located in the forbidden zone. So, it seems that you cannot visit it any more by yourself.

You can also buy this permit in a trailer of the Navajo Tribal Parks at the Chapter House on Coppermine road. It is what I did in Spring 2008 as I knew that by asking for a permit for Water Holes canyon without any precision (it was what Kelsey was meaning by "end of conversation" in his guidebook), the employee was giving the permit without any explanations and without drawing anything on the map, thus with no forbidden areas, so I had a "valid" permit to visit Upper Waterholes and at that time there were very few tours from Hummer Tours so I didn't encounter anybody and I had the slot for myself. As furtherly Hummer Tours encountered several people who knew the trick for the "valid" permit, they asked the Chapter House employe to draw the forbidden areas on the map so it doesn't work any more.

Philippe

[Jammer]

Good info Philippe.

BTW -- I took another look at your photos. Great stuff!

Thanks,

- Jamal

[Philippe]

Thanks, Jamal.

Philippe

[zzyzx]

You can also buy this permit in a trailer of the Navajo Tribal Parks at the Chapter House on Coppermine road. It is what I did in Spring 2008 as I knew that by asking for a permit for Water Holes canyon without any precision (it was what Kelsey was meaning by "end of conversation" in his guidebook), the employee was giving the permit without any explanations and without drawing anything on the map, thus with no forbidden areas, so I had a "valid" permit to visit Upper Waterholes and at that time there were very few tours from Hummer Tours so I didn't encounter anybody and I had the slot for myself.

That's funny Philippe, we did the same in May/2008.

[Philippe]

Hi Michel,


That's funny Philippe, we did the same in May/2008

It is maybe because we have the same German friends (I am sure you know who I am talking about) who did that a few months before. :wink:

Philippe

[Bobuddy]

best to consider Navajo land as private property. seek permission first to go hiking, you will need a permit. if you do not get a permit and are caught you can face the same or similar legal consequences of trespassing.

I believe all of water holes is on Navajo land. you will need a permit. There are some roads that lead to private homes, I assume Navajo residents, on top of the waterholes drainage near upper waterholes.

you probably wouldn't like someone walking back and forth through your rose garden lost and un unintentionally chasing farm animals on your ranch. I'd recommend respecting their privacy or seeking additional permission.

Yes, I agree! :nod: We DID obtain a permit - from the same place that Philippe did - the Coppermine Road Chapter House. We did find out that they are NOT open on the weekends - so Monday through Friday only for those that might need that information in the future. A few years ago, when we went to Upper and Lower Antelope Canyons, they told us that we could go to Waterholes that same day with our Antelope permits - so we mistakenly thought we could obtain a Navajo permit at the Antelope areas last year - NOPE. So - Just FYI for those reading this. We could only obtain a permit at the Coppermine Road place.

We did specifically tell the three people in the permit office that morning where we were going. No one said anything to us about it being on private property. We DID park at at the area off 89 at the bridge and went up through Lower and Middle first - and then headed up to Upper Waterholes that way - and did not come across any barriers, signs or anything that might indicate we were on private property.

I do want to do the hike the right way - if it is permissible. I always want to respect the owners of the land - especially if that allows others to hike and enjoy it.

Philippe - I am going to look at your pictures now! :nod:

[Bobuddy]

Philippe - Gorgeous pictures!

I know you said Spring of 2008 - what month? What time during the day were you there?

[Philippe]

Philippe - Gorgeous pictures!

Thank you !


I know you said Spring of 2008 - what month? What time during the day were you there?

It was in June (I don't remember the day) and I was there in mid morning staying more than an hour in the slot.


so we mistakenly thought we could obtain a Navajo permit at the Antelope areas last year - NOPE. So - Just FYI for those reading this. We could only obtain a permit at the Coppermine Road place.

That have changed as in 2006 I could get a Waterhole Permit (for the classic slots) at the Upper Antelope Canyon Booth.


We did specifically tell the three people in the permit office that morning where we were going. No one said anything to us about it being on private property. We DID park at at the area off 89 at the bridge and went up through Lower and Middle first - and then headed up to Upper Waterholes that way - and did not come across any barriers, signs or anything that might indicate we were on private property.

I think that's not a strict question of private property but only a question of business as Hummer Tours obtained from a Navajo Family the exclusivity for the visit of this slot canyon and they don't want anybody to visit it by himself, they want everybody to pay their heavy fee and to use their polluting Hummmer instead of hiking. It was already the same for Antelope and Canyon X and I've heard that some outfitters are negociating the exclusivity for the visit of other places in the Navajo Reservation.

Philippe

[americanhero]

That have changed as in 2006 I could get a Waterhole Permit (for the classic slots) at the Upper Antelope Canyon Booth.



We got our Waterhole permit at the Upper Antelope Canyon Booth as well last June. It was no problem. No questions, nothing.
Maybe it depends who is at the booth, who knows? :roll:



When they give you the permit, they also give you a map of Waterholes drainage where they draw with a stabilo boss what area is allowed with the permit and what area is forbidden. Unfortunately, Upper Water holes canyon is located in the forbidden zone. So, it seems that you cannot visit it any more by yourself.

Interesting with that map, Philippe.
We never got one and no one talked about the forbidden zone or anything in that direction.

[Bobuddy]

Americanhero - yes, that is what happened with us. They gave us the permit (still have it) but no map or anything else that suggested boundaries.

There is a German blog of Upper Waterholes that has recently been updated (Oct? 2010) and states that it has been inconsistent with the information of whether or not you can hike into Upper. Some people are told not to - others are not told anything - still others are told that Upper Waterholes is NOT off limits.

Looks like no clear answers so far.

[americanhero]

Americanhero - yes, that is what happened with us. They gave us the permit (still have it) but no map or anything else that suggested boundaries.

There is a German blog of Upper Waterholes that has recently been updated (Oct? 2010) and states that it has been inconsistent with the information of whether or not you can hike into Upper. Some people are told not to - others are not told anything - still others are told that Upper Waterholes is NOT off limits.

Looks like no clear answers so far.


I guess it really depends on who is sitting at the kiosk.

[zzyzx]

It is maybe because we have the same German friends (I am sure you know who I am talking about) who did that a few months before.

Thats true Philippe. :nod:
But I haven't grabbed any information from that source. I took Kelsey's description, an topo map, my bird view picture, taken from the flight to LAS and Google Earth. So I found my way into the slot.
Oh I remember. The Leeche-e Chapter House were closed. We grabbed the permit without any map at the kiosk at Antelope Canyon - we were the first ones at these day.
The whole land is private property.
It's a pity, that hikers have no chance more, to hike in the remote area. :angryfire:

Humwee - Tours.
A pretty nice car. I love that car for off-road driving - but I never did it.
The Tour itself to the slot - is IMHO more for the retirees generation. A little bit off-roading, cool moves over the slick rock and you have reached the entry. The guide were talking about the canyon, and so on. We saw and heard him at the top of the slot - we were on the way back. He were guiding a lady.