NMB for n00bs?

[xxnitsuaxx]

We're heading south this weekend and I have two beginners with me. I'm taking two of my professors (athletic guys but no experience in canyons) and I want them to have fun and get a little scraped up. I was thinking about Not Mindbender but I haven't done it yet - is it a good canyon for athletic beginners? If not, I was thinking about doing Monkey Business or Foolin' Around, but I haven't done those either. Anyone have an opinion? And the Roost - is it dry? Anyone been down there since that last thread was started?

Gracias

[ratagonia]

Winter is a great time to do canyons you haven't done before with noobs, with uncertain conditions...

NOT!

The exit from that canyon faces north. If you have not done it before, it can be hard to find, especially in the dark. If it has any snow on it, it is almost unclimbable. The next exit is quite a ways away, and puts you 10 miles from your vehicle.

Why not just do any of the many canyons you have already done? It REALLY helps to have done the canyon before, to negotiate it in winter with noobs.

Need I pummel harder? :cool2:

Tom :moses:

[qedcook]

The roads were dry when I went last Tuesday. Why not do Larry or Bluejohn? I did Moonshine with two athletic noobs and they said it was the perfect difficult.

[P.J.]

I also did Moonshine recently- a couple easy down climbs with some good narrows. And dry. The downclimbs at the beginning of the main fork of Bluejohn were a little daunting for one of my friends on their first canyoneering experience, but they could be belayed if its too much (my friend is athletic as well, and once he started downclimbing, he realized he could make it the rest of the way).
I think Tom is the wise one. I'm still a noobie myself, and the more I learn, the more horror stories I come across about people getting in over their heads in places they have never been (and the more cautious I become).

[ratagonia]

The roads were dry when I went last Tuesday. Why not do Larry or Bluejohn? I did Moonshine with two athletic noobs and they said it was the perfect difficult.

Larry is quite long, and the exit can be a little hard to find (in the dark) - but at least it faces south. Not recommended in winter, not having done it before, with noobs in tow.

Tom

[ratagonia]

The roads were dry when I went last Tuesday. Why not do Larry or Bluejohn? I did Moonshine with two athletic noobs and they said it was the perfect difficult.

Bluejohn Main might be a good choice. Bluejohn East/Main loop - there is a long, long pool that forms just after the committing rappel in East. Not a good choice in winter. The pool is shared with the Squeeze Fork.

Tom

[nat]

I also did Moonshine recently- a couple easy down climbs with some good narrows. And dry. The downclimbs at the beginning of the main fork of Bluejohn were a little daunting for one of my friends on their first canyoneering experience, but they could be belayed if its too much (my friend is athletic as well, and once he started downclimbing, he realized he could make it the rest of the way).
I think Tom is the wise one. I'm still a noobie myself, and the more I learn, the more horror stories I come across about people getting in over their heads in places they have never been (and the more cautious I become).

Yes, Tom is wise..., though perhaps overly conservative. Not Mindbender can be a reasonable canyon to take newbies down if the leadership (why do I hate that word so much?) is competent. The canyon is moderately physical, with some short downclimbs. There are 3 raps, the first couple pretty easily (at least the times I was there) anchored from boulders or chockstones. Make sure the anchor at the 3rd rap is solid. When I was last there it was from 3 points, none of which was particularly comforting. For the exit, a couple of 5.0-5,2 moves on a slab (Moki steps) you will probably want to belay your friends up. If it is covered with snow (which seems unlikely right now) it could be tricky. If it was truly impossible (very unlikely) you could go downcanyon to Angel Arch and exit there.

Nat

[ratagonia]

Yes, Tom is wise..., though perhaps overly conservative. Not Mindbender can be a reasonable canyon to take newbies down if the leadership (why do I hate that word so much?) is competent. The canyon is moderately physical, with some short downclimbs. There are 3 raps, the first couple pretty easily (at least the times I was there) anchored from boulders or chockstones. Make sure the anchor at the 3rd rap is solid. When I was last there it was from 3 points, none of which was particularly comforting. For the exit, a couple of 5.0-5,2 moves on a slab (Moki steps) you will probably want to belay your friends up. If it is covered with snow (which seems unlikely right now) it could be tricky. If it was truly impossible (very unlikely) you could go downcanyon to Angel Arch and exit there.

Nat

And heck!, SAR already knows where the canyon is, after that rescue a few years ago, in winter, because the exit was snowed up. Those guys were smart and looked over the slope to make sure it was dry, but you cannot see the exit from the top, and it turns out the key section had snow and ice on it, being north-facing and all...

T

[Scott P]

SAR already knows where the canyon is, after that rescue a years ago, in winter because the exit was snowed up.


Tom, do you really think the Roost is still in winter conditions (question not an arguement)?

I was under the impression that it's been really warm there lately (Hanksville has been in the upper 50's and lower 60's lately) and I was thinking (perhaps incorrectly?) that just about all the snow would be gone down there (except for maybe in the highest elevations north facing).

I'm asking because I was thinking of heading down next week.

[trackrunner]

And heck!, SAR already knows where the canyon is, after that rescue a few years ago, in winter, because the exit was snowed up. Those guys were smart and looked over the slope to make sure it was dry, but you cannot see the exit from the top, and it turns out the key section had snow and ice on it, being north-facing and all...

T

this one?
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?23661-2-Heber-brothers-survive-night-in-wilds

[ratagonia]

Tom, do you really think the Roost is still in winter conditions (question not an arguement)?

I was under the impression that it's been really warm there lately (Hanksville has been in the upper 50's and lower 60's lately) and I was thinking (perhaps incorrectly?) that just about all the snow would be gone down there (except for maybe in the highest elevations north facing).

I'm asking because I was thinking of heading down next week.

For you, Scott, a guy who knows what he is doing and knows the area? Not so much. It still freezes at night, though.

I think the toplands are probably dry, the roads good, etc. I think there is a good chance (80%) the exit from NMB is dry and normal. But, it has not been a dry winter, so I expect there are unexpected pools lurking here and there. I suspect the pool in East BJ is long and very, very cold, but not frozen.

I am biased in that WE in Zion/Kanab got clobbered by a storm last Sat/Sun, and still have plenty of snow on the ground. I know the storm did not hit much east of here.

I do not know what xxnitsuaxx's capabilities are. From his question, I kinda presume his savvy level is fairly low. Doing canyons you have not done before in winter is always a gamble. Bringing noobs along - another gamble. Winter tends to create flows that flood the canyons, and take out some of the anchors. Is xxnitsuaxx capable of building anchors? In the mud? I don't know.

So yes, I am speaking to the "Least Common Denominator", and I might be underestimating Xsnitsuaxx's abilities. Perhaps he is totally capable of yo-yoing Sandthrax with his buds in the morning, and soloing a new route on Factory Butte in the afternoon, but if he was, then he would not be asking questions here, now would he?

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

We're heading south this weekend and I have two beginners with me. I'm taking two of my professors (athletic guys but no experience in canyons) and I want them to have fun and get a little scraped up. I was thinking about Not Mindbender but I haven't done it yet - is it a good canyon for athletic beginners? If not, I was thinking about doing Monkey Business or Foolin' Around, but I haven't done those either. Anyone have an opinion? And the Roost - is it dry? Anyone been down there since that last thread was started?

Gracias

More politely - and also, this time of year, sometimes wetsuits are real helpful. Can be cold in the canyons and if scrapey, nice to scrape up a wetsuit, rather than expensive insulated clothing. Some of those places are muddy = wet and unpleasant this time of year, like the north-facing Poison Springs canyons Slideanide and Constrych9.

North Wash usually delivers. Lots of options. Close to pavement.

Tom

[xxnitsuaxx]

I appreciate the comments from everyone.

Tom - You assumption as to my level of competence is a perfectly understandable one to make. That's only because I've been keeping my first-ever ASCENT of Imlay a secret. I'm certainly nowhere near y'alls level of skill and experience, but I still consider myself a pretty competent canyoneer. I asked about the feasibility of NMB for 3 reasons. 1 - it's been recommended to me as a pretty good canyon for competent beginners. 2 - my neat little weather app on my phone has been broadcasting nothing but dry, warm weather for the area for the last couple of weeks. Barring a freak storm, the streak of good weather made me doubt the existence of any sort of winter conditions (snow on the moki steps, etc.). 3 - I'm not very familiar with the Roost. I've only done Larry and Alcatraz down there and wasn't sure how long winter lingered in the area. All that being said - I appreciate the suggestions. I was keeping the North Wash as a backup plan in case the Roost isn't doable.

And not to be argumentative, but isn't it a sign of experience to ask questions when you don't have and need the information? If anything, you should have assumed that my line of questioning didn't belie my experience level but instead affirmed it :mrgreen:

[xxnitsuaxx]

PS - Tom. xxnitsuaxx = Austin. That's probably easier to type. :)

[Scott Card]

Austin, I would agree with Tom particularly regarding familiarity with the area and the potential of snow and ice. I personally would feel more comfortable in about a month in the Roost. Also, having done NMB, I considered it a waste of time. I would think that athletic beginners would be disappointed with NMB. I enjoy the North Wash stuff much better than NMB or just about any other canyon for that matter. I also really like Larry for beginners. It has a taste of just about everything. You know, you have been there. As for NMB, just at the time you think it is about to turn into something good, it ends and you are at the last rap. Not a repeat canyon for me anyway, ever. Certainly very, very little bang for the long drive out there. Just my opinion.

I have never had a bad day in Larry or some of the North Wash canyons with noobs of all skill levels.

[xxnitsuaxx]

Thanks Scott. I don't know either you or Tom personally, but I've read enough to know that if one of you says there might be snow, there will probably be snow. And if one of you says a canyon isn't stellar, I'll believe it. We'll probably hit up the North Wash instead.

On a completely unrelated note, I'm going to try leaving a crock pot filled with pulled pork cooking at the campsite while we're in the canyon. If anyone is around Sandthrax campsite late Saturday afternoon and wants some bbq, they're more than welcome!

[trackrunner]

If anyone is around Sandthrax campsite late Saturday afternoon and wants some bbq, they're more than welcome!

the north wash fox may take you up on the offer

[Bo_Beck]

I appreciate the comments from everyone.

@Tom (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=17646) - You assumption as to my level of competence is a perfectly understandable one to make. That's only because I've been keeping my first-ever ASCENT of Imlay a secret.

Just curious Austin? Did you have a standard desert rack for your ascent? I would imagine you had to do some hooking?

[Don]

the north wash fox may take you up on the offer

:lol8: I wonder how active he'd be during the day? But leave that out at night and that cunning fox will clean you out. Even a heavy dutch oven lid wasn't too big a challenge...

[ratagonia]

I appreciate the comments from everyone.

Tom - You assumption as to my level of competence is a perfectly understandable one to make. That's only because I've been keeping my first-ever ASCENT of Imlay a secret.

And not to be argumentative, but isn't it a sign of experience to ask questions when you don't have and need the information? If anything, you should have assumed that my line of questioning didn't belie my experience level but instead affirmed it :mrgreen:

Dang! I saw that Imlay was iced up, but when I walked up the Narrows, the icicle hadn't touched down, so we couldn't get up it. Ya beat me to the punch!

Asking questions shows intelligence. Experience? Not so much. The statement that you wanted to take noobs out in winter to a canyon you had not done before indicates, to me, that A. you had not done much in the Roost; and B. that you had not done many canyons in the area, thus having not a big quiver of "done canyons" to choose from; which would be a more obvious choice for noobs in the winter.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

having done NMB, I considered it a waste of time. I would think that athletic beginners would be disappointed with NMB.

WOW! I really liked NMB... long, deep, pretty slot that visits a remote section of the Roost. I'd easily rank it as good as Larry.

I'm not arguing with your likes and dislikes... I'm just really surprised to hear that remark about NMB from you.


http://climb-utah.com/Roost/Files/notmind02.jpg

[Scott Card]

Ice, here is my reason or reasons as the case may be. And maybe I was a bit too harsh because the first canyon for someone can be very fun and memorable. When I did NMB I was really heavily into ramping up the canyon resume and gaining experience with progressively harder canyons or at least new challenges. My opinion is also based on my memory and my long term impression of the canyon. It is a very long drive for a short slot -- the interesting, narrow and technical part that, the hike is longish. The exit plain stinks. It was the consensus of the group that the slot did not deliver the goods or at least the bang for the buck. I didn't hate it like I hated Eardley but in looking back it was a very long trip for not much business. Am I glad I did it? Sure, it is off the list. Would I do it again? Maybe but only on a multi day trip to the Roost as a rest day canyon, but I would never do it as "the" canyon or the destination canyon for a day trip or to take noobs. There is just too much and much better stuff out there. I don't forsee any multi day trips to the Roost in the future until I knock off a few other long canyons like Cricket, et al. Also I would much rather go to Escalante every year and do Choprock and Neon rather than spend a few days doing NMB and MB. Still too much fun to be had elsewhere.

[ratagonia]

Ice, here is my reason or reasons as the case may be. And maybe I was a bit too harsh because the first canyon for someone can be very fun and memorable. When I did NMB I was really heavily into ramping up the canyon resume and gaining experience with progressively harder canyons or at least new challenges. My opinion is also based on my memory and my long term impression of the canyon. It is a very long drive for a short slot -- the interesting, narrow and technical part that, the hike is longish. The exit plain stinks. It was the consensus of the group that the slot did not deliver the goods or at least the bang for the buck. I didn't hate it like I hated Eardley but in looking back it was a very long trip for not much business. Am I glad I did it? Sure, it is off the list. Would I do it again? Maybe but only on a multi day trip to the Roost as a rest day canyon, but I would never do it as "the" canyon or the destination canyon for a day trip or to take noobs. There is just too much and much better stuff out there. I don't forsee any multi day trips to the Roost in the future until I knock off a few other long canyons like Cricket, et al. Also I would much rather go to Escalante every year and do Choprock and Neon rather than spend a few days doing NMB and MB. Still too much fun to be had elsewhere.

I think of it kind of like Behunin. In the right conditions, a wonderful day in the wildlands, with friends. Not so much good canyon, but some nice bits. A lot of nice hiking, with nice scenery. It ain't Imlay, it ain't Alcatraz!

Kinda the problem with the other canyons there too - Mindbender, Almost, Sorta and Kinda. Some nice bits, but not much. Hard to build a whole day around.

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

It ain't Imlay

I agree!

But then again... not many canyons are....

[Iceaxe]

However.... I do have a fun Not Mindbender story.... :bootyshake:

When we did Not Mindbender George tagged along with us.... George makes his living as a professional hunting and safari guide in Ghana Africa.... as we were making the exit hike with the lush vegetation towering around us the conversation went something like this.....

George: If we were in Africa we would not being doing this...

Ice: What? you mean canyoneering?

George: No, I mean walking down this stream in the early afternoon.

Ice: What????

George: Yeah... the Lions feed in the afternoon and lie in wait along streams like this ready to kill their dinner....

Needless to say I spent the remainder of the hike out with my butt puckered shut watching for lions in the long grass..... Now I can't hike any of those Roost streams without watching for lions ready to make me their dinner.

:eek2:

Picture of George
http://climb-utah.com/Roost/Files/notmind03.jpg

What I see when hiking the Roost streams....
http://www.wildlife-pictures-online.com/image-files/lions_knp-ns18.jpg

:2thumbs:

[Spidey]

A Noob taking Noobs into any canyon in any conditions is a terrible idea. Especially with the possibility of winter conditions, all be it small. Like Tom said at least SAR knows where the canyon is.

[Iceaxe]

A Noob taking Noobs into any canyon in any conditions is a terrible idea.

I disagree with this.... we were all noob's at one time. Some of the most fun I had canyoneering was as a noob exploring canyons with other noob's.

My advise for noob's is to start small and work you way up. Don't stack the deck against yourself by adding unnecessary difficulty points like... getting a late start, skimping on wetsuits, winter conditions, trying to eat an elephant sandwich, yada, yada….

YMMV

[remoteman45]

I was in the west approach of Blue John Saturday and everything was dry clear to the last rap down into the Horseshoe hike out. There was a frozen pool at the bottom of the rap - see the pic. As we hiked out Horseshoe past the Grand Gallery there was a fair amount of water with some snow and frozen stream beds in the shady areas of the canyon. It was awesome hiking temps with an occasional breeze.
And I liked NotMindbender but I'd be concerned too about the cold (possibly frozen) water conditions and the condition of that last rap after the winter we've had. Will you be able to build an anchor with frozen conditions at that last rap if it's holding water there?