Scouting & Canyoneering

[Iceaxe]

So what's the deal with scouting and scouting leaders needing to be "Canyon Certified" in order to take their scout troops into tech canyons?

The reason I ask is I've had two scout leaders contact me recently asking and I'd like to be able to pass along the correct info and point them in a proper direction?

Last time I heard the scouts and canyoneering was all still in discussion. If this is something that has now become a reality where are the scout leaders supposed to go get certified?

Anyhoo.... thanks in advance for anyone that knows.

And in the latest news.....

I heard a scout leader had to be air lifted out of MMI last week after breaking his leg in a fall that occurred AFTER the technical section. Anyone know the details?

[Brian in SLC]

My bet is that its an extention of their climbing situation.

Makes sense.

Makes me wonder about Kolob...

[ratagonia]

The Boy Scout rock climbing rules are written for top-roping at a BSA-established toprope area, and are not all that applicable to canyoneering. However, it a rope is involved, the BSA consider it climbing, thus...

The Salt Lake Council has established a trial program to institute a training program for canyoneering leaders. Other councils may also be involved. The training is an extension past the climbing program (ie, people have to have completed the climbing program to enter the canyoneering program), and is based on (but not exactly the same as) the ACA Canyon Leader program.

Scout Leaders interested should contact their councils, or maybe the Salt Lake Council and get in contact with Brandt Jones, who is heading the effort.

Tom :moses:

[Scott Card]

The Salt Lake Council is ahead of the curve and perhaps the only one requiring certification for now. I don't know what their requirements are right now but I know they are leading out in this area. I think the National Parks Council (Utah Valley and south) will be next year or the year after. I don't know the details but I am aware of actually two requirement to have qualified and/or certified leaders for this sport. The two requirements come from the LDS Church and the scouts, both of whom desire to protect themselves and the youth. There is pressure from both fronts to have better trained leaders. I believe the Church has requested that certified leaders be present in these sorts of activities as of last year. I also believe that there is no clear definition as to what that means. This request from the LDS Church is independent of the BSA. The certification process for the BSA is farther along in the SLC BSA council than anywhere else right now but yes, it IS coming from both the LDS Church and the BSA. My educated guess is that the BSA and LDS Church certification will look very much like the Canyon Leader certification offered by the ACA.

[Iceaxe]

This is creating a lot of confusion in the local scouting community.... so if I understand what you are all saying....

As of right now its still all in the discussion, talking and planning stages?

There is nothing written in stone regarding exact requirements for canyoneering and what those requirements actually are?

Thanks for the input....

[Iceaxe]

My educated guess is that the BSA and LDS Church certification will look very much like the Canyon Leader certification offered by the ACA.

Probably because the ACA has volunteered to head the certification program if I understand correctly....

[moab mark]

Has anyone seen the letter from the Church? Scott and I were at the same meeting where this was all discussed and I figured we would get a copy of the letter soon after. Our Stake Pres or Bishop has never received the letter?

From the proposals that have been thrown around it is going to take quite a bit of training to be able to go canyoneering with scouts or church groups. I think it is around 40-60 hours. As Scott said the certification will look close to the Canyon Leader program with each group needing at least 2 cert leaders. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. In our ward if we have to follow the letter of the law we will be done. I would be willing to jump thru the hoops but there is not another leader that is willing to donate that much time or cash to get trained for a calling that only lasts a few years. They look at me like I am nuts. But for the Church and BSA to cover their behinds it is probably a necessary step.

[Iceaxe]

FWIW: I did find this buried in some ACA information. And I seem to recall Rich had volunteered to lead the program in some fashion, but I can't seem to find that in writing anywhere.



Canyon Leaders: ACA, BSA

This may be a good time to mention programs we are developing between the ACA and the Boy Scouts.

The ACA has trained quite a few Boy Scout leaders over the past 10 years and we hope to train many more in the future. Most have come to us as individuals seeking additional knowledge and technical skills prior to taking boys into canyons. Some come to us as part of a group of leaders.

The only "certification" program the BSA has in place has been Climb On Safely. While it might be a good for top roped climbing or rappelling at a local cliff, it has left much to be desired when applied to canyoneering.

This past year, Brandt Jones, working with other Scout leaders in the Great Salt Lake Council (GSLC), began developing a formal adult canyon leader program. They have BSA's blessing, but for now it is an experiment within one council. Brandt used the ACA's skills checklists as the basis for the program.

I am working on a few adjustments to the ACA's skills checklists and course curriculums to more closely align our Canyon Leader program with the GSLC's. Goal in doing so is to provide a simpler "bridge" between the programs. Skills required to pass either exam will be taught in courses offered by ACA accredited training centers. GSLC will also provide training opportunities. Scout leaders who receive GSLC adult canyon leader status will only need to complete the ACA's Canyon Leadership Course, pass our Canyon Leader exam and take a Wilderness First Aid course to receive ACA Canyon Leader certification.

[Scott Card]

Has anyone seen the letter from the Church? Scott and I were at the same meeting where this was all discussed and I figured we would get a copy of the letter soon after. Our Stake Pres or Bishop has never received the letter?

I will see what I can find. I just sent an email to our Stake YM leader to see if he has a copy of "the letter"...

[moab mark]

Probably because the ACA has volunteered to head the certification program if I understand correctly....
The concept that was presented at the ACA meeting gave the impression that you will be able to take the training thru the GSLC for a fee. Or you could take the certification from the ACA at a higher fee. I can not remember what cost were tossed around but the GSLC program would take a much longer time frame to get thru the program....... once a week for x weeks. The ACA program would be set up like the normal Tech classes.

My next door neighbor is Kay Godfrey, he works for the GSLC and I think this program falls under his jurisdiction. I haven't talked to him about it since the original meeting but I'll see if I can find out anything new.

[moab mark]

I talked to Kay, I'm a little smarter. There is a board/committee meeting tomorrow night. The canyoneering proposal is going to be presented. If passed it will then move onto the quarterly board meeting to be ratified. He says it should pass. He did not know exactly what was being proposed but said he'll try to remember to bring me home a copy of the proposal tomorrow so I can have a look.

Mark

[ratagonia]

I talked to Kay, I'm a little smarter. There is a board/committee meeting tomorrow night. The canyoneering proposal is going to be presented. If passed it will then move onto the quarterly board meeting to be ratified. He says it should pass. He did not know exactly what was being proposed but said he'll try to remember to bring me home a copy of the proposal tomorrow so I can have a look.

Mark

Brandt Jones (no relation) is the guy heading up the program at SLcouncil, the guy presenting tomorrow night.

As I understand it, the second leader would not have to be fully certed as a canyon leader, but would be required to meet some level of training. A lot like the climbing requirements - must be one certed "Lead Climbing Guy" and can have several assistants. "Lead" does not mean lead climbing, but means is the Lead instructor, guy in charge.

They have worked hard to put a program together. As he explained it to me, it sounded like a good program.

Tom

[Scott Card]

I will see what I can find. I just sent an email to our Stake YM leader to see if he has a copy of "the letter"...Not sure the letter exists. My stake has not seen the letter but also has heard of it. Hmmmm.

[rcwild]

If you are asking about the LDS Church First Presidency Letter ....

[bbjones]

I am the climbing committee chairman for the Great Salt Lake Council, BSA.

Currently, to take scouts canyoneering you need to have trained climbing instructors.

The rules can be found in Guide to Safe Scouting and in the Great Salt Lake Council climbing and rappelling policy.

The Great Salt Lake Council climbing and rappelling policy can be found on the Council web page.

One of the current rules that apply to canyoneering (during rappelling activities) is you need to have at least two BSA climbing instructors, one of which must be a Lead Climbing Instructor. (The term “lead” here applies to a head instructor who oversees the event)

Troops, teams and crews can always contract with trained and licensed guides to run the event but the guides must adhere to the rules and regulations in Topping Out and the applicable BSA National and Council standards.

In other words, you cannot go with “Uncle Jim” just because he has been rappelling, climbing or canyoneering before.

A scouting analogy is that shooting sports must be conducted “under the supervision of a currently certified BSA or National Rifle Association firearms instructor.” See Guide to Save Scouting.

To reiterate, Units can participate in technical canyoneering/climbing/rappelling only with trained instructors.

Not all leaders need to get this training. In the Great Salt Lake Council, scout leaders need only contact the climbing committee chairman, Brandt Jones, and appropriate instructors will be made available for their activity. Of course, leaders who desire can become climbing instructors.

The letter from the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is dated June 11, 2010 and was addressed to “General Authorities; Area Seventies; Stake, District, and Mission Presidents; Bishops and Branch Presidents in the United States and Canada” and states that climbing activities “should not be undertaken unless led by trained and licensed guides or in conjunction with Scouting High Adventure programs.” It also states that it is a reaffirmation of current policies.

I am not a representative of the Church of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints but copies of the letter can be obtained from the Church offices. (I see that the letter is attached in an earlier post of this thread)

For years the Great Salt Lake Council has been encouraging climbing instructors to get as much training as possible.

The Great Salt Lake Council has been working with the National Boy Scout office to develop a canyon leader program.

Last year the Great Salt Lake Council began official training for the canyon leader program. The program was developed with the assistance of Rich Carlson from the ACA.

The first requirement is to become a BSA Lead Climbing Instructor. There is skills list and canyon resume that is also required. I won’t enumerate all the requirements at this time.

Again, not all scout leaders will need to become Great Salt Lake Council canyon leaders but they will need to have a canyon leader and at least one other climbing instructor for their activity. You need to have a minimum of 2 trained instructors at a ratio of 1 instructor for every 6 participants (scouts, dads, moms and other leaders at the event).

It is hoped that the canyon leader policy for the Great Salt Lake Council will go into effect this spring.

Currently we have over 60 BSA climbing instructors who have entered the canyon leader training program.

The Great Salt Lake Council is also developing a Junior Canyoneering Patch that young men can earn.

From what I understand, the National Parks Council and Trapper Trails Council are considering a similar canyoneering policy.

If you have any additional thoughts, feel free to PM or to give me a call on my cell. My number can be found on the Great Salt Lake Council climbing instructor course registration page.

Brandt

[Iceaxe]

Thanks to all for the information. :2thumbs:

It would be great if a couple of you guys into scouting could update this thread as more information becomes avaiable. We have a lot of scouts and scout leaders who follow this forum.

And I assume this is the correct link to

Guide to Safe Scouting (http://scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS.aspx)

[Scott Card]

Thanks Rich for the pdf and thanks Brandt for the explaination and leading out in this area. Over a decade ago when I started leading kids in canyons, I simply ignored most of the Scout climbing stuff since it simply didn't apply to canyoneering. I am so glad that Canyoneering is being recognized but more importantly, recognized for the unique challenges that need to be addressed and trained for. :2thumbs: I look forward to certifying soon.

[ropelug]

Yes and yes. In Moab we are looking for the word on what BSA wants instructors to be to take the Boys canyoneering.
I'm Vice Cdr of Grand County Search and Rescue and was OIC for the MMI incident. 16 scout leaders from the SLC area scouting out a project for the scouts. 8 did MMI and 8 did Undercover. They met. Then... Yes the injury happened after the rope stuff just after the two groups met. They sent a few fast people out to call 911 with GPS coordinates. Page Lifeguard helicopter landed on scene. We made sure everyone else got out and shuttled some. Everyone was in a warm car just before dark. Then it was the horrific Yellow Cat mud out to I-70. Not funny.

[Jaxx]

I thought the cert for being a climbing leader was called "topping out." I can't find any info on it and I called the local council and she didn't have that on her list.
Does anyone know if that is an old cert and it is called climbing lead instructor or some other name now? How often does it need to be renewed? I had to take a 10 hr class to get the topping out cert and that was a couple years ago.
Also what makes a lead climbing instructor? Just that out of the two guys who are climbing instructors one of them volunteers to be the lead instructor? Or does it require more training/certs

[Jaxx]

OK I found this.

2. Qualified Instructors A qualified rock climbing instructor who is at least 21 years of age must supervise all BSA climbing/rappelling activities. A currently trained BSA climbing director or instructor is highly recommended. Contact your local council or regional service center to locate a qualified individual. The climbing instructor has successfully completed a minimum of 10 hours of instructor training for climbing/rappelling from a nationally or regionally recognized organization, a climbing school, a college-level climbing/rappelling course, or is a qualified BSA climbing instructor. The BSA offers a section of National Camping School for climbing directors who in turn can train climbing instructors. Every instructor must have prior experiences in teaching climbing/rappelling to youth and must agree to adhere to Climb On Safely and the guidelines set in Topping Out.

Still doesn't answer the questions in the above post though.

[Iceaxe]

I'm Vice Cdr of Grand County Search and Rescue and was OIC for the MMI incident.

Here are some pictures of the SAR

CLICK HERE (https://cid-ec7ee08db41ea584.photos.live.com/play.aspx/moab%20arches%20rescue%2022211?Bsrc=EMSHOO&Bpub=SN.Notifications)

They are in some type of Windows Live format that my computer will not open, maybe some of you will have better luck.

And Mark Rosen sent this to me:


On a trip from Murray to MMI and Undercover snow was found on the slab-climbing exit, one leader took a belayed-fall down the slab and broke both ankles (and more) when slamming into a corner. Effective first aid and insulation taco was applied. A run out to cell phone coverage took awhile, but heli-evac was completed before sundown. The climber is now in hospital in Salt Lake after surgeries and recovering. It was not a scouting event but many of the group were scout leaders. there were also non scouters involved.

[rcwild]

I thought the cert for being a climbing leader was called "topping out." I can't find any info on it and I called the local council and she didn't have that on her list. Does anyone know if that is an old cert and it is called climbing lead instructor or some other name now? How often does it need to be renewed? I had to take a 10 hr class to get the topping out cert and that was a couple years ago. Also what makes a lead climbing instructor? Just that out of the two guys who are climbing instructors one of them volunteers to be the lead instructor? Or does it require more training/certs

The certification was never called Topping Out. "Topping Out" is the title of the manual. There has also been a lot of confusion about Climb On Safely. The Climb On Safely program is simply a 45 minute orientation for scout leaders and parents letting them know what BSA does to help insure scouts' safety. It states that there must be a certain ratio of qualified climbing instructors (in charge of the technical aspects of an outing) and a certain ratio of supervisors (babysitters who take charge of the scouts who are waiting for their turn to climb/rappel). Other requirements include safe site, proper equipment, etc. etc etc.

Very strange to me that the BSA issues a card to individuals who complete the 45 minute orientation. Lots of Scout Leaders out there with that card in their wallet, along with a 10-hour course who think they are certified. Very unfortunate. Steps are being taken to correct the misunderstandings of the past.

Some of the confusion stems from this text:

The climbing instructor has successfully completed a minimum of 10 hours of instructor training for climbing/rappelling from a nationally or regionally recognized organization, a climbing school, a college-level climbing/rappelling course, or is a qualified BSA climbing instructor. The BSA offers a section of National Camping School for climbing directors who in turn can train climbing instructors. Every instructor must have prior experiences in teaching climbing/rappelling to youth and must agree to adhere to Climb On Safely and the guidelines set in Topping Out.

Note the high-lighted text. There are climbing schools offering 10-hour courses that start with, "This is a rope." and end 10 hours later with "Here is your certificate." Obviously not what is intended by the BSA policy.

FYI -- If you are a Scout Leader in the Great Salt Lake Council (Brandt's) or the Utah National Park Council (mine), neither council will recognize certification received from a 10-hour course from any climbing school. You are encouraged to pursue as much training as possible, including training from a climbing school if you are so inclined, but competency testing and certification is only available directly through the council. Very likely that Trapper Trails Council will adopt the same policy.

[Jaxx]

How does one become an instructor? Is it a series of classes and if so, any info on classes to become a climbing instructor in the UNP council?

[rcwild]

I am the Climbing Committee Chairman for Utah National Parks Council. I will be organizing courses and exams in several locations started in March. All will be listed at: http://www.meetup.com/BSA-ClimbingCanyoneering/ Short-term goal is to conduct some competency exams for Scout Leaders who feel they already possess the skills necessary to serve as climbing instructors.

I also give Scout Leaders a discount on my 3-day ART of Canyoneering Workshops and 1-day Knot Craft and Anchors Workshops.

[Jaxx]

I am the Climbing Committee Chairman for Utah National Parks Council. I will be organizing courses and exams in several locations started in March. All will be listed at: http://www.meetup.com/BSA-ClimbingCanyoneering/ Short-term goal is to conduct some competency exams for Scout Leaders who feel they already possess the skills necessary to serve as climbing instructors.

I also give Scout Leaders a discount on my 3-day ART of Canyoneering Workshops and 1-day Knot Craft and Anchors Workshops.

Sweet! Keep us posted please.

[rcwild]

Friday-Saturday, 25-26 February
Utah County (Orem or Provo)

Friday Evening, 6:00 to 7:30: Climb On Safely Orientation
Friday Evening, 7:30 to 10:00: Written Exam
Saturday Morning, 8:00 to NOON: Skills Station Testing
Saturday Afternoon, 1:00 to 5:00: Leadership Training

This exam is one of the requirements for certification as a BSA Climbing Instructor, a prerequisite for certification as a BSA Canyoneering Leader. The exam is aimed at Scout Leaders in UNPC, but all are welcome.

There is no fee for the exam. However, all participants MUST purchase a copy of "Topping Out" in advance of the exam to study for the exam. You will be required to bring your copy of "Topping Out" with you.

RSVP at:
http://www.meetup.com/BSA-ClimbingCanyoneering/events/16397553/

[Jaxx]

Friday-Saturday, 25-26 February
Utah County (Orem or Provo)

Friday Evening, 6:00 to 7:30: Climb On Safely Orientation
Friday Evening, 7:30 to 10:00: Written Exam
Saturday Morning, 8:00 to NOON: Skills Station Testing
Saturday Afternoon, 1:00 to 5:00: Leadership Training

This exam is one of the requirements for certification as a BSA Climbing Instructor, a prerequisite for certification as a BSA Canyoneering Leader. The exam is aimed at Scout Leaders in UNPC, but all are welcome.

There is no fee for the exam. However, all participants MUST purchase a copy of "Topping Out" in advance of the exam to study for the exam. You will be required to bring your copy of "Topping Out" with you.

RSVP at:
http://www.meetup.com/BSA-ClimbingCanyoneering/events/16397553/

Is there a list of the requirements or is it just "have 10 hours of approved training."
Do the testing times count in the 10 hours? Will I leave Saturday night with a climbing instructor certification if I pass the tests and complete the training? What other requirements are there for becoming a Climbing instructor and Canyoneering Leader? Is there a webpage that spells it out. Scouting.org and utahscouts.org are the most useless sites I have ever seen.
This is what I can find on climbing from http://utahscouts.org/openrosters/ViewOrgPageLink.asp?LinkKey=23345&orgkey=2196

"Rock Climbing Training

So many youth are interested in rock climbing! And climbing brings many wonderful teaching opportunities as well. Please remember that a qualified rock climbing instructor who is at least 21 years of age must supervise all BSA climbing/rappelling activities. A currently trained BSA climbing director or instructor is highly recommended. To qualify as a climbing instructor, you must successfully complete a minimum of 10 hours of instructor training for climbing/rappelling from a nationally or regionally recognized organization, a climbing school or a college-level climbing/rappelling course.
CLAS Ropes, the Quarry and Hanson Mountaineering are offering multiple training course to Scout leaders. These courses include:


Climb on Safely Training
Climb on Safely Instructor Training
Climbing Instructor Training

Read this VITAL information (http://www.scouting.org/404.aspx?item=%2fboyscouts%2fresources%2fclimb+on+ safely&user=extranet%5CAnonymous&site=website)to ensure personal understanding and preparedness as well as YOUR responsibilities."


When you click on the "Read this VITAL information" link it gives a 404 error. :crazy: Guess it isn't that VITAL!


Also. When I took a class at Hansen Mountaineering they gave me a little card for completing my Topping Out requirements along with a climb on safely cert card. I got the impression that is what I needed for being a climbing instructor. What was the point of the topping out certification card? Keep in mind this was 2 to 3 years ago, so mabey the rules just changed.

[rcwild]

The rules have not changed. Unfortunate that so many people have misunderstood the rules. Working to correct those misunderstandings. I have spoken with the guys at CLAS, The Quarry and Hanson Mountaineering (AKA 12 Fingers). They all know about the concerns of the past. They all know that we appreciate their training programs for Scout Leaders and encourage them to continue ... BUT ... they cannot issue certification cards.

The 10 hour minimum course specifically states that it is instructor training. The program on the 25th and 26th does not include any basic rock climbing instruction. Participants should already be competent recreational rock climbers before they show up for the exam and leader training. That has always been the intent of the BSA climbing instructor program. Our program will include leader training -- risk assessment, group dynamics, leadership, etc.

As I mentioned in a previous post, UNPC will be following GSLC's lead. They do not recognize any 10-hour course offered by any climbing school. All climbing instructors must go through their in-house training and exam. Same will be required for UNPC in the near future. For now, we know that some of the Scout Leaders carrying 10-hour cards actually are competent. We want to identify who they are and solicit their assistance to get our council's program up to par. Hopefully you will be one of them, Jaxx.

One reason people have misunderstandings is that they read one line or paragraph and come up with an interpretation without knowing the big picture. The BSA rules actually state that a Climbing Instructor for any Council or District event can only be one who was qualified through a course/exam conducted by National Camping School or through a course conducted by a BSA Climbing Director who was certified through National Camping School. The rules also state that this path to qualification is the preferred method for Climbing Instructors at Unit level, but provides an exception at unit level -- the one about successful completion of minimum 10 hours of instructor training. BSA allows a Council to create its own policies as long as those policies are at least as strict as BSA's. GSLC has opted to eliminate the 10-hour option, even for Unit level outings. So forget about any questions regarding 10 hours. The program on the 25th and 26th is not being conducted under the 10-hour deal. It will be conducted under the direction of a BSA Climbing Director; in this case Brandt Jones as I will not have my Climbing Director certification until May.

Successful completion of the exam is only one requirement. Others include current BSA registration, current Youth Protection certification, current first aid certification, etc. If you pass, you will be considered a certified assistant instructor. There will also be a mentoring requirement, but I think we can work something out for that to be retroactive if a person has a good climbing resume and a couple references. It is not our intent to create stumbling blocks for competent individuals; only to get a handle on who those competent individuals are and who needs more training/mentoring.

[Jaxx]

Thanks for the clarifications. I am trying to move some things around for this training but I have a brother coming home from an LDS mission on friday the 25th. So that is the biggest obstacle. Is it worth going and pissing off my mom? :haha:

[moab mark]

Rich,

Do you know when either you or Brandt will be able to give us a breakdown as to what exactly has to be accomplished to be certified?

Thanks

Mark

[Redpb]

Trying to make arrangements myself. I'll be gone the weekend before. Is it worth going and pissing off my wife?:nod:

[rcwild]

Is it worth going and pissing off my mom?

Of course.


Is it worth going and pissing off my wife?

Definitely.

[rcwild]

Do you know when either you or Brandt will be able to give us a breakdown as to what exactly has to be accomplished to be certified?

Can do that right now. You need to have all the BSA paperwork stuff done, plus first aid, and you need to pass the Climbing Instructor Exam. I thought there might be a possibility of having a canyoneering leader certification completely separate from the climbing instructor certification, but that's not going to happen. Currently BSA does not even mention canyoneering, so it has to fall under the climbing and rappelling program.

Mark, if you are in UNPC, we will make sure you get credit for the canyon leader training you already completed.

[moab mark]

Can do that right now. You need to have all the BSA paperwork stuff done, plus first aid, and you need to pass the Climbing Instructor Exam. I thought there might be a possibility of having a canyoneering leader certification completely separate from the climbing instructor certification, but that's not going to happen. Currently BSA does not even mention canyoneering, so it has to fall under the climbing and rappelling program.

Mark, if you are in UNPC, we will make sure you get credit for the canyon leader training you already completed.

If we pass the climbing instructor exam we can then take scouts canyoneering if we have a qualified Assistance?

[rcwild]

If we pass the climbing instructor exam we can then take scouts canyoneering if we have a qualified Assistance?

If you pass the climbing instructor exam AND complete the other BSA requirements AND you have the appropriate number of climbing instructors and supervisors (as outlined in Climb On Safely), you can take Scouts climbing and rappelling. In your specific case, because you already took the canyon leader course, you can also take them canyoneering.

[oval]

Even if the LDS church passes something like this, I fail to see how it'll be any different than 2 leaders taking 35 boys up to the Uintas and losing one. Or a group of folks dropping into Kolob, and after they realize they are in way over their head, it's already way too late.

The reality is that though guidelines are good, generic "be safe, don't do risky stuff, don't take unhealthy/at-risk kids" no more makes canyoneering for boyscouts safe than any previous scenarios.

Perhaps if they didn't have their Bishop's appoint people that are neither qualified, nor able to make sound judgments regarding wilderness activities (or simply being able to evaluate ratios of how many adults to children/youths you need for a given activity), there would be less dangerous and deadly outcomes with boyscouts in this state.

[Redpb]

Even if the LDS church passes something like this, I fail to see how it'll be any different than 2 leaders taking 35 boys up to the Uintas and losing one. Or a group of folks dropping into Kolob, and after they realize they are in way over their head, it's already way too late.

The reality is that though guidelines are good, generic "be safe, don't do risky stuff, don't take unhealthy/at-risk kids" no more makes canyoneering for boyscouts safe than any previous scenarios.

Perhaps if they didn't have their Bishop's appoint people that are neither qualified, nor able to make sound judgments regarding wilderness activities (or simply being able to evaluate ratios of how many adults to children/youths you need for a given activity), there would be less dangerous and deadly outcomes with boyscouts in this state.

'Cause this happens ONLY with the LDS church and all of volunteers around the country are more than qualified and we haven't seen anything like this anywhere else. Damn those Mormons!

[rcwild]

Even if the LDS church passes something like this, I fail to see how it'll be any different than 2 leaders taking 35 boys up to the Uintas and losing one. Or a group of folks dropping into Kolob, and after they realize they are in way over their head, it's already way too late.

The reality is that though guidelines are good, generic "be safe, don't do risky stuff, don't take unhealthy/at-risk kids" no more makes canyoneering for boyscouts safe than any previous scenarios.

Perhaps if they didn't have their Bishop's appoint people that are neither qualified, nor able to make sound judgments regarding wilderness activities (or simply being able to evaluate ratios of how many adults to children/youths you need for a given activity), there would be less dangerous and deadly outcomes with boyscouts in this state.

Thank you for your thoughtful insight, Mr. Oval. We will look to you for knowledge and advice regarding how to proceed. If Scout Leaders, especially LDS Scout Leaders are incompetent and incapable of learning, we should not waste our time providing them with training in technical skills and risk management as we had planned. We will put all future plans on hold until we hear your suggestions.

In the meantime, please clear something up for me. Perhaps just my ignorance of Scouting and/or the LDS church. I didn't realize that bishops "volunteered" people as Scout Leaders based on outdoor skills. I was under the impression that Scout Leaders were chosen based on their character and their ability to positively influence young men. My understanding of programs like Climb On Safely is that the Scout Leaders don't necessarily need climbing, rappelling and canyoneering skills. If they lack said skills, they can recruit others who do possess the skills to help with outings. I'm going to feel really stupid if I misunderstood.

[ratagonia]

Thank you for your thoughtful insight, Mr. Oval. We will look to you for knowledge and advice regarding how to proceed. If Scout Leaders, especially LDS Scout Leaders are incompetent and incapable of learning, we should not waste our time providing them with training in technical skills and risk management as we had planned. We will put all future plans on hold until we hear your suggestions.

In the meantime, please clear something up for me. Perhaps just my ignorance of Scouting and/or the LDS church. I didn't realize that bishops "volunteered" people as Scout Leaders based on outdoor skills. I was under the impression that Scout Leaders were chosen based on their character and their ability to positively influence young men. My understanding of programs like Climb On Safely is that the Scout Leaders don't necessarily need climbing, rappelling and canyoneering skills. If they lack said skills, they can recruit others who do possess the skills to help with outings. I'm going to feel really stupid if I misunderstood.

:2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

Unfortunately commonsense is not a measurable attribute or a requirement for becoming a scout leader....

And no amount of training, certification or merit badge will install commonsense in those lacking.... you can't fix stupid.

I don't have the answer.... just sayin'.....

[oval]

Thank you for your thoughtful insight, Mr. Oval. We will look to you for knowledge and advice regarding how to proceed. If Scout Leaders, especially LDS Scout Leaders are incompetent and incapable of learning, we should not waste our time providing them with training in technical skills and risk management as we had planned. We will put all future plans on hold until we hear your suggestions.
I'm not addressing your program at all Rich. I hope that it helps them.


In the meantime, please clear something up for me. Perhaps just my ignorance of Scouting and/or the LDS church. I didn't realize that bishops "volunteered" people as Scout Leaders based on outdoor skills. I was under the impression that Scout Leaders were chosen based on their character and their ability to positively influence young men. My understanding of programs like Climb On Safely is that the Scout Leaders don't necessarily need climbing, rappelling and canyoneering skills. If they lack said skills, they can recruit others who do possess the skills to help with outings. I'm going to feel really stupid if I misunderstood.
Nope, the Bishop can and does appoint people that they think need to get involved. It can involve experienced people, or people that want nothing to do with the outdoors at all. I have several friends in this position that have been "placed" in said position because to refuse "a calling" would be disobeying the church.

My point is simply that I doubt that this stuff is going to prevent disasters from happening, as helpful as it may be. There are fundamental issues at hand that are still un-addressed.

Poor Rich, always so defensive of his programs, even if they arent even being attacked. Takes a big ego to defend something that isnt even being attacked :D

And yes, Utah Boyscouts have a much higher national average death than other states.

[rcwild]

Poor Rich, always so defensive of his programs, even if they arent even being attacked. Takes a big ego to defend something that isnt even being attacked :D

What are you referring to as my programs -- the Boy Scouts of America or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

[ratagonia]

...

My point is simply that I doubt that this stuff is going to prevent disasters from happening, as helpful as it may be. There are fundamental issues at hand that are still un-addressed.

...

And yes, Utah Boyscouts have a much higher national average death than other states.

The purpose is not to prevent ALL accidents. The purpose is to prevent SOME accidents. I bet it does that.

"Utah Boyscouts have a much higher national average death than other states."

You have a citation on that, that you could share with the class?

Tom

[Scott P]

"Utah Boyscouts have a much higher national average death than other states."

You have a citation on that, that you could share with the class?


I have heard many people and sources say this, but I can't remember/point out everywhere I have heard it.

Here is one source:

http://reachupward.blogspot.com/2009/06/lds-sponsored-bsa-units-have-more.html

Another source of the frequency of deaths is the story of the 1996 Grand Canyon deaths at Nankoweep in the book Over the Edge: Death in the Grand Canyon.

To quote from the book:

David Phillips was at least the sixth Utahn to have died on Scouting Deaths in the past five years (two others drowned, one fell, and two were struck by lightning).

A little farther back were the Kolob deaths, but they weren't scouts.

There have many discussions on why Utah scouts seem to have so many deaths:

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=101845

To me I think the answers are obvious (I am LDS and a scout leader).

1. In the LDS Church, scout leader is a "calling". Sometimes (very often in fact) the leaders called may have little or no outdoor experience at all.

2. Every boy in the LDS church is expected to be a boyscout. It is considered a duty rather than an option (it seems to be more "optional" in most troops outside the LDS church).

3. There is a push for the LDS boyscouts (and some other groups as well) to include everyone regardless of conditioning, outdoor skill or behavior.

This isn't meant to say that scouting in negative though; as said I am a scout leader myself. It's a good program for boys. There are more positive aspects of scouting than there are negative. I do think the above reasons are causes of some of the accidents though.

[ratagonia]

I have heard many people and sources say this, but I can't remember/point out everywhere I have heard it.

Here is one source:

http://reachupward.blogspot.com/2009/06/lds-sponsored-bsa-units-have-more.html

Another source of the frequency of deaths is the story of the 1996 Grand Canyon deaths at Nankoweep in the book Over the Edge: Death in the Grand Canyon.

To quote from the book:

David Phillips was at least the sixth Utahn to have died on Scouting Deaths in the past five years (two others drowned, one fell, and two were struck by lightning).

A little farther back were the Kolob deaths, but they weren't scouts.

There have many discussions on why Utah scouts seem to have so many deaths:

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=101845

To me I think the answers are obvious (I am LDS and a scout leader).

1. In the LDS Church, scout leader is a "calling". Sometimes (very often in fact) the leaders called may have little or no outdoor experience at all.
2. Every boy in the LDS church is expected to be a boyscout. It is considered a duty rather than an option (it seems to be more "optional" in most troops outside the LDS church).
3. There is a push for the LDS boyscouts (and some other groups as well) to include everyone regardless of conditioning, outdoor skill or behavior.

This isn't meant to say that scouting in negative though; as said I am a scout leader myself. It's a good program for boys. There are more positive aspects of scouting than there are negative. I do think the above reasons are causes of some of the accidents though.

Thanks Scott, but none of those is a "source". A source would be something that provides data. All of these links provide anecdotes only. Listing LDS-scout deaths says NOTHING about comparative rates.

I suggest other reasons for this "fact":

- we live in Utah (most of us) and the LDS church holds meaning to us, so we are very aware of LDS-sponsored troop outing incidents.
- participation in Boy Scouts may be significantly higher in Utah than in other parts of the country.
- the population of Boy Scout - eligible kids is MUCH higher in Utah than in other parts of the country.
- All troops in Utah are within easy reach of interesting outdoor adventure locations.

Notice, I am only trying to ascertain the veracity of the statement. As yet, no reliable source. The first link does link to someone saying that on line, without references, but you know, since it is on the Internet, it must be true! :roflol:

I think you will find that, across the USA, it is difficult to sign up high-quality scout leaders.

Tom :moses:

[Scott P]

I have heard many people and sources say this, but I can't remember/point out everywhere I have heard it.

It is true that I've heard the same thing several times and pointed out one place where one could read the quote above. I don't know if there is any official data available and the above isn't supposed to be an official source. The first link says the same thing (about not being an official statistic).

Part 2 was merely a quote from a book pointing out that there had been six deaths in five years for Utah scouts.

Part 3 is merely a discussion on why Utah scouts seem to get into trouble more often (probably for some/all of your reasons as well). It is possible that it isn't true, but sometimes it sure does seem that way and many have heard the same "unverifiable information".

I still think my above answers on possible reasons are valid (though just conjecture rather than the official data you are looking for). I used to work full time at scout camps (where both LDS and non-LDS troops frequent) and can't attest that some of the leaders called to the position really know nothing about the outdoors. I could tell you some stories sometime.


- we live in Utah (most of us) and the LDS church holds meaning to us, so we are very aware of LDS-sponsored troop outing incidents.
- participation in Boy Scouts may be significantly higher in Utah than in other parts of the country.
- the population of Boy Scout - eligible kids is MUCH higher in Utah than in other parts of the country.
- All troops in Utah are within easy reach of interesting outdoor adventure locations.


All good points as well. The last one could hold true for many areas/states though. Utah certainly does have easy reach to many interesting outdoor locations, but are the rescue of non-scout deaths higher than in other states (I don't know the answer; I'm just asking)?


I think you will find that, across the USA, it is difficult to sign up high-quality scout leaders.

Of course this is correct. On the other hand though, many (most) of the people "called" to be scout leaders know something about the outdoors. However, at least some of the ones "called" (such as the ones in my parent's ward) know very little or nothing about the outdoors. In my own experience, by far the most people volunteering (rather than being called) to be a scout leader know something about the outdoors.

Many (most) LDS leaders do know a lot about the outdoors. In my ward, the scouts climbed Gannet Peak last year. They go on at least one big river run every year (last year was Desolation Canyon; this year may be the Yampa/Split Mountain). They want to climb Granite Peak in Montana and climb the Colorado 14ers. We have some of the coldest winter weather in the lower 48 around here and they still go camping every month. There are many such scout leaders.

On the other hand, in my parent's ward (my dad is one of the scout leaders) in WVC, the rest of the leaders "called" (my dad volunteered) have hardly ever gone on hikes (before and after. They tried a hike to Dog Lake, but apparently it was too long for the leaders. They almost never go camping or hiking and when they do, they don't have a clue what they are doing. I have seen many such leaders come to scout camps.

When I worked at a scout camp, there were several incidences of leaders that didn't have much a clue how to camp/hike. We went on an overnight backpack and they brought things like full size frying pans and charcoal. A possible bear siting occurred and the scout leader made all the scouts throw all of their food into the bushes. This was before dinner. Obviously there was no breakfast or lunch the next day. But they did have their frying pans and charcoal.

On the other hand, at least some of them make a great effort. There are many top-notch scout leaders out there; both LDS and non. The above are just some comments/observations/eperiences rather than any official statistic. :wink: I too would like to see some veracity (supporting or debunking) of the seemingly oft repeated statement.

[mtthwlw]

I've enjoyed reading this post and the follow-up comments.

As a boy I benefited greatly from having Scout leaders who were "called" by a bishop to serve. These were all guys with large families and demanding careers, but they found time to serve because of their feeling of duty. Because of my outdoor Scouting experience, these men have saved me from a miserable couch-potato existence. We went on hikes (Mt. Whitney and others), camping trips, rafted the Kern and Salmon Rivers, rode bikes for 50 miles, spent a lot of time climbing in Joshua Tree, and did a lot of other exciting things. These leaders weren't doing this service (initially) because they chose to, but once they were called they put their hearts into it. I'm thankful for them.

As an young adult just starting out in my career and family, I was called as a Scoutmaster. I was scared. I didn't have camping equipment or a place to keep it. I didn't have any training. I didn't even have a truck. I didn't know how I would do it. But, I had a love of the outdoors and a desire to give back (and, Oval, I was guilted into it a bit). In that first year, the boys wanted to mountain bike. I didn't know anything about mountain biking, so I bought a bike and some books and then found people who would train me and help out on Wednesday nights for a few months.

Later, I moved to Southern Utah and became a Scoutmaster here. The boys wanted to climb rocks and canyoneer... so I found resources. Mr. Tom Jones put me in contact with Mark Rosen (thanks, Tom!:hail2thechief::moses:) and Mark Rosen got me connected to Brandt. That was in the time before the Utah National Parks had Rich Carlson. I was able to get about 8 full days of training through those guys in Salt Lake-- and after the training I feel pretty capable at taking groups through canyons. (It doesn't take 8 days to get the BSA Lead Climbing card, but Brandt makes sure extensive training is available.):hail2thechief: Thanks!

Probably the best part of all of this is getting to know other like-minded leaders. I've been able to help groups other than my own, and I've been able to get help leading groups (to keep the 1:6 ratio that Brandt mentioned) from others that I met in these classes. This way you don't have to train EVERYONE in your organization in order to take a trip.

What I mean to say in all of this is-- There is plenty of training out there. if you get "called" to Scouts, then do it correctly. Find resources. Get training. If you live in Salt Lake, contact Brandt. Sign up for a class. If you live Orem and south, contact Rich Carlson and get trained. Even if you know a lot when you start, you may end-up making connections with people who can help you be a better Scouter. I don't want to minimize the danger and the death and the other scary things that can happen. I know that it happens, and unfortunately, it happens here in Utah too often. But the real danger in Scouting is in NOT going, NOT getting training, and NOT getting the kids out of their houses and into a harness/backpack/mountain bike/etc. :slobber: We have way too many lazy kids out there. I think Scouting (with well trained leaders) is the answer for a lot of kids. It was for me.

[Spidey]

I'm not addressing your program at all Rich. I hope that it helps them.


Nope, the Bishop can and does appoint people that they think need to get involved. It can involve experienced people, or people that want nothing to do with the outdoors at all. I have several friends in this position that have been "placed" in said position because to refuse "a calling" would be disobeying the church.

My point is simply that I doubt that this stuff is going to prevent disasters from happening, as helpful as it may be. There are fundamental issues at hand that are still un-addressed.

Poor Rich, always so defensive of his programs, even if they arent even being attacked. Takes a big ego to defend something that isnt even being attacked :D

And yes, Utah Boyscouts have a much higher national average death than other states.

Eeehhh Wrong again! Any one in the church can turn down a calling, and it's not disobeying. I recently turned down a calling. Your assertion is absolutely wrong. As for bishops calling people with no experience just because he wants them involved. It depends on the bishop. I know many bishops, and all of them work very hard to call men that have experience in the outdoors. Here's the problem, one mans outdoor passion is not very likely to match up with 5-6 7,8, or 10-12 boys or more. So everyone does the best they can. Lord knows my bishop never should have called me to be in the scouting program. He was making a giant leap of faith that I would learn to love the outdoors!
I am curious on what planet is additional affordable training not going to help prevent disasters from happening? Isn't that exactly what training is for? If your referring to the scout leaders being called by bishops as the fundamental issues? Then your letting your dislike or ignorance for/about Mormons drip a tad heavy on your keyboard.

[Iceaxe]

Eeehhh Wrong again! Any one in the church can turn down a calling

Yes, you can turn down a calling.... Free agency is fundamental to the church..... but we both know a sizable portion of the Ward will not turn down a calling if asked.... Church members have a tendency to except a calling and do the best they can with it.... usually its a good fit and occasionally its a disaster.... I'm sure many of us can quote dozens of example of both....

Anyhoo.... back to our regularly scheduled programing....

[rcwild]

Friday-Saturday, 25-26 February
Utah County (Orem or Provo)

Friday Evening, 6:00 to 7:30: Climb On Safely Orientation
Friday Evening, 7:30 to 10:00: Written Exam
Saturday Morning, 8:00 to NOON: Skills Station Testing
Saturday Afternoon, 1:00 to 5:00: Leadership Training

This exam is one of the requirements for certification as a BSA Climbing Instructor, a prerequisite for certification as a BSA Canyoneering Leader. The exam is aimed at Scout Leaders in UNPC, but all are welcome.

There is no fee for the exam. However, all participants MUST purchase a copy of "Topping Out" in advance of the exam to study for the exam. You will be required to bring your copy of "Topping Out" with you.

RSVP at:
http://www.meetup.com/BSA-ClimbingCanyoneering/events/16397553/

Confirmed the location:

LDS church-- 1105 West 600 South in Orem
We will be in the Relief Society Room on Friday night and the Cultural Hall on Saturday.

If you plan to attend, please RSVP on the BSA meetup group linked above.

[Spidey]

Clark and I are offering a Scout Leader Training, on the 8th and 9th of April. It will be in Utah county.
Friday 9:00 a.m. - 5:00 p.m.ish
Saturday 9:00 a.m. - 5:00 p.m.ish

This is a 2-day Fast Track Course. The cost will be 195.00$

Clark and I are striving to give you the best bang for your buck possible. We, with others have gone through and identified the skills a Scout Leader needs. We have tried to take out the fluff, and just give you the meat. We will also give you as many tips and tricks as possible that we have learned from running a Venturing crew for 6 years. As well as tips and tricks that we have picked up during our time out with some of the godfather's of the sport.
We look forward to serving you, and helping you get out canyoneering with your boys, Safely.

On another note, for those interested. Clark is being made the climbing committee chairman for the NPC. I am on the climbing committee, and we are working with Rich Carlson, and Brandt Jones GSLC to put together a canyoneering policy for the NPC. We are striving to make it simple and concise, so as to provide an achievable end game for Scout Leaders. We will also be working on training opportunities, to make it as EASY as possible to get through the soon to be required training.
Thanks and we look forward to seeing you: Spidey

Please R.S.V.P. so we know how many to plan on. Thank You

[ratagonia]

Clark and I are offering a Scout Leader Training, on the 8th and 9th of April. It will be in Utah county.
Friday 9:00 a.m. - 5:00 p.m.ish
Saturday 9:00 a.m. - 5:00 p.m.ish

This is a 2-day Fast Track Course. The cost will be 195.00$

Clark and I are striving to give you the best bang for your buck possible. We, with others have gone through and identified the skills a Scout Leader needs. We have tried to take out the fluff, and just give you the meat. We will also give you as many tips and tricks as possible that we have learned from running a Venturing crew for 6 years. As well as tips and tricks that we have picked up during our time out with some of the godfather's of the sport.
We look forward to serving you, and helping you get out canyoneering with your boys, Safely.

On another note, for those interested. Clark is being made the climbing committee chairman for the NPC. I am on the climbing committee, and we are working with Rich Carlson, and Brandt Jones GSLC to put together a canyoneering policy for the NPC. We are striving to make it simple and concise, so as to provide an achievable end game for Scout Leaders. We will also be working on training opportunities, to make it as EASY as possible to get through the soon to be required training.
Thanks and we look forward to seeing you: Spidey

Please R.S.V.P. so we know how many to plan on. Thank You

:2thumbs: Good on ya, Spidey y Clarke. Thanks for all you do. Tom :moses:

[Scott Card]

:2thumbs: Good on ya, Spidey y Clarke. Thanks for all you do. Tom :moses: X2 :2thumbs:

[Spidey]

There will be another Scout Leader training opportunity you can p.m. me or find details here. http://www.meetup.com/BSA-ClimbingCanyoneering/

[Kuya]

2. Qualified Instructors

A qualified climbing/rappelling instructor who is at least 21 years of age and trained in the specific type of climbing must supervise all BSA climbing/rappelling activities. A capable instructor has experience in teaching climbing and rappelling to youth, acknowledges personal limitations, and exercises good judgment in a variety of circumstances.
There must be a minimum of two instructors for all climbing and rappelling activities (up to 12 participants) and one additional instructor (at least 18 years of age) for up to each additional six participants, maintaining a 6:1 ratio. Sources of qualified climbing and rappelling instructors include, but are not limited to, the following:


BSA Level II instructor (climbing director or lead instructor)
National Outdoor Leadership School
Wilderness Education Association
American Mountain Guides Association
Eastern Mountain Sports
University or college climbing/rappelling instructors
Professional Climbing Guide Institute
Professional Climbing Instructors Association

For specialized climbing activities such as lead climbing, sport climbing, ice climbing, canyoneering, mountaineering, and caving, qualified instructors with specific training and skill in instructing these activities are required.
Qualified instruction is essential to conducting a safe climbing/rappelling activity. Some people who claim to be qualified or have had some experience with climbing or rappelling may lack sufficient knowledge to safely conduct these activities. For instance, some climbers with a lot of experience have repeated the same mistakes many times without learning correct procedures.

So I am going at it again with the UNPC. Looks like the climbing director quit, BUT I have received some direction on how to proceed with getting the correct certifications. I was told by Bob Gowens to contact Ben Allen and his staff at CLAS Ropes for the training. He made it knows that the training received there will be sufficient to make you a "qualified instructor" and will allow you to manage climbing programs as required by BSA Topping out and Climb On Safely.

As far as canyoneering is concerned, it looks like it is mentioned now in the literature as a "Specialized activity" and as such, qualified instructors with specific training and skill in instructing those activities are now required. My only question now is: what qualifies as good canyoneering training? and whose training is "good"?

[Kuya]

Climbing Policy Update for the UNPC:

I recently completed a BSA Level 2 Climbing course in the UNPC. This was a 35 hour class where everything from from topping out was covered and practical rescue skills were demonstrated and tested.

I was encouraged by the class. The training received was solid and definitely prepares Unit leaders to effectively manage a simple climbing and rappelling program.

However, this class did not do any kind of training for canyoneering. When I ask the UNPC Climbing Director (Debbie Spoons as of right now) about canyoneering policy, she doesn't have a answer for me. I'm hoping to get this figured out soon.