Search warrant without knocking

[Iceaxe]

I'm not sure I approve of this....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV6Bq8xeQrU


[QUOTE]The Salt Lake Tribune
Updated Nov 1, 2010 10:57PM

Roy

[bbennett]

I'm right there with you Ice! They didn't even give this guy a chance to advance. I hardley think that a golf club is a deadly weapon when you're wearing riot gear. It's as if that cop was just playing a game on Xbox.

[ratagonia]

I'm right there with you Ice! They didn't even give this guy a chance to advance. I hardley think that a golf club is a deadly weapon when you're wearing riot gear. It's as if that cop was just playing a game on Xbox.

That's some fast shooting. T

[Don]

Yeah, wow, I mean on the one hand a guy pops out with a weapon and obviously aggressive stance but on the other hand the cops probably woke him; disoriented in the middle of the night who doesn't grab a golf club (or something more serious) to investigate?
It does seem like the cop was pretty quick on the trigger.

Based on the video I'd have side with the family; unjustified. The key to me is the newspaper report says he "attacked police officers with a golf club". I would not call that an attack. He surprised police officers with a golf club, but he wasn't given a half a second to swing or drop it.
I hate to see a cop in trouble for it 'cause there's no way to know what he was thinking in the moment (meaning, it's possible he was threatened in a way that is unclear on the video) but I hope a lot of cops watch this video and take the time to think about what they would do in similar circumstances.

[Iceaxe]

Blows the guy away and then says "get on the ground"! I like that.

[oldno7]

So---What if the guy simply heard the shuffling outside and footsteps on his porch,alarmed, he gets out of bed, fearing an intruder grabs a golf club.

[RedMan]

Known H & meth dealer, under surveillance for two weeks.
I'm voting they should have saved us a shit load of tax dollars and
popped the prick in the head with sniper rifle on the second day.

[ratagonia]

Known H & meth dealer, under surveillance for two weeks.
I'm voting they should have saved us a shit load of tax dollars and
popped the prick in the head with sniper rifle on the second day.

Hope they got the right guy.... Yup, gov'mint always gets the right guy. He's even righter if he can no longer complain...

T

[Udink]

I would rather have taken a whack or two from the golf club (especially knowing that several armed men behind me had my back) than been the f***tard who opened fire prematurely.

[Felicia]

Ok - really not a lot details to work with here. I have a suspicion that there is much more to this story.

[IntrepidXJ]

I'm usually all for police shooting people who resist and flee......but this certainly isn't cool

[accadacca]

The cop had no choice but to shoot. I mean the dood had a deadly weapon. :roll:

[Felicia]

I'm usually all for police shooting people who resist and flee......but this certainly isn't cool

Why????

The defendant is advancing and carry a potential deadly weapon.

What went on BEFORE this video clip?

There is way too much information missing to even begin a meaningful debate.

[ilanimaka]

Dunno how I feel about this. Like others have said, need more details.

[Deuce]

Guess I will give an uninformed opinion.... I will preface with, I feel bad for anyone who loses a loved one, even if that person appears to have a history of difficulty living within societal norms.

From what we see, it looks like more restraint on the side of the police officers could have been shown. But in that split second, someone standing there in a threatening position with something in their hands, tough call. Hindsight is always 20/20. I'd bet, even with the review coming out in his/her favor, the officer(s?) who shot wishes he/she could take back the decision, if given the opportunity with the current information. We ask these people to do a tough job. They have to make split second decisions that could cause them to take a life and/or lose theirs. I appreciate their service and what they do.

Bottom line, if you're slinging dope....sometimes bad chit happens to you.

[blueeyes]

Guess I will give an uninformed opinion.... I will preface with, I feel bad for anyone who loses a loved one, even if that person appears to have a history of difficulty living within societal norms.

From what we see, it looks like more restraint on the side of the police officers could have been shown. But in that split second, someone standing there in a threatening position with something in their hands, tough call. Hindsight is always 20/20. I'd bet, even with the review coming out in his/her favor, the officer(s?) who shot wishes he/she could take back the decision, if given the opportunity with the current information. We ask these people to do a tough job. They have to make split second decisions that could cause them to take a life and/or lose theirs. I appreciate their service and what they do.

Bottom line, if you're slinging dope....sometimes bad chit happens to you.

You couldn't have said it better.

[fouristhenewone]

Bottom line, if you're slinging dope....sometimes bad chit happens to you.

unless - you know - you aren't slinging dope - http://reason.com/blog/2011/01/06/grandpa-killed-in-drug-raid (http://reason.com/blog/2011/01/06/grandpa-killed-in-drug-raid), http://reason.com/archives/2010/03/23/another-senseless-drug-war-dea,

http://www.theagitator.com/2010/05/05/video-of-swat-raid-on-missouri-family (http://www.theagitator.com/2010/05/05/video-of-swat-raid-on-missouri-family/) - dare anyone to watch that one and not feel sick.

or in this case - http://www.standard.net/topics/drugs/2010/10/29/family-planning-lawsuit-prevent-repeat-drug-raid-shooting-death.

know this - f@#$ cops kick in my door in the middle of night like a bunch of jackbooted retards, kill my dog that's protecting my house - prepare to get shot. it's just plain crazy that we accept that cops are "in a tough position, need to make split second decisions, etc, etc, etc."...

We live in a world filled with imperfect people - those with badges and without. as a nation, and likely even more so as a people, we bear a responsibility to demand that those who we trust with power, use that power in a intelligent way, and should hold those people to a higher standard - we need to punish those who don't live up to that standard - of which there are many. We need to address the systems that cause this type of abuse of power to be a common occurrence. That's not to say that there are not situations where violent, and deadly action need to occur - but far too often lives are taken - both human and animal - unnecessarily, because those people in power lack common sense.

[ibenick]

unless - you know - you aren't slinging dope - http://reason.com/blog/2011/01/06/grandpa-killed-in-drug-raid (http://reason.com/blog/2011/01/06/grandpa-killed-in-drug-raid), http://reason.com/archives/2010/03/23/another-senseless-drug-war-dea,

http://www.theagitator.com/2010/05/05/video-of-swat-raid-on-missouri-family (http://www.theagitator.com/2010/05/05/video-of-swat-raid-on-missouri-family/) - dare anyone to watch that one and not feel sick.

or in this case - http://www.standard.net/topics/drugs/2010/10/29/family-planning-lawsuit-prevent-repeat-drug-raid-shooting-death.

know this - f@#$ cops kicked in my door in the middle of night like a bunch of jackbooted retards, kill my dog - that's protecting my house - prepare to get shot. it's just plan crazy that we accept that cops are "in a tough position, need to make split second decisions, etc, etc, etc."...

We live in a world filled with imperfect people - those with badges and without. as a nation, and likely even more so as a people, we bear a responsiblity to demand that those who we trust with power, to use that power in a intelligent way, and should hold those people to a higher standard - we need to punish those who don't live up to that standard - of which there are many. we need to address the systems that cause for this to type of abuse of power to be a common occurence. That's not to say that there are not situations where violent, and deadly action needs to occur - but far too often lives are taken - both human and animal - unneccesarily, because those people in power lack common sense.

Bogley needs you around more often.

[ratagonia]

unless - you know - you aren't slinging dope - http://reason.com/blog/2011/01/06/grandpa-killed-in-drug-raid (http://reason.com/blog/2011/01/06/grandpa-killed-in-drug-raid), http://reason.com/archives/2010/03/23/another-senseless-drug-war-dea,

http://www.theagitator.com/2010/05/05/video-of-swat-raid-on-missouri-family (http://www.theagitator.com/2010/05/05/video-of-swat-raid-on-missouri-family/) - dare anyone to watch that one and not feel sick.

or in this case - http://www.standard.net/topics/drugs/2010/10/29/family-planning-lawsuit-prevent-repeat-drug-raid-shooting-death.

know this - f@#$ cops kick in my door in the middle of night like a bunch of jackbooted retards, kill my dog that's protecting my house - prepare to get shot. it's just plain crazy that we accept that cops are "in a tough position, need to make split second decisions, etc, etc, etc."...

We live in a world filled with imperfect people - those with badges and without. as a nation, and likely even more so as a people, we bear a responsibility to demand that those who we trust with power, to use that power in a intelligent way, and should hold those people to a higher standard - we need to punish those who don't live up to that standard - of which there are many. we need to address the systems that cause this type of abuse of power to be a common occurrence. That's not to say that there are not situations where violent, and deadly action needs to occur - but far too often lives are taken - both human and animal - unnecessarily, because those people in power lack common sense.

Well put. :2thumbs:

[Deuce]

unless - you know - you aren't slinging dope - http://reason.com/blog/2011/01/06/grandpa-killed-in-drug-raid (http://reason.com/blog/2011/01/06/grandpa-killed-in-drug-raid), http://reason.com/archives/2010/03/23/another-senseless-drug-war-dea,

http://www.theagitator.com/2010/05/05/video-of-swat-raid-on-missouri-family (http://www.theagitator.com/2010/05/05/video-of-swat-raid-on-missouri-family/) - dare anyone to watch that one and not feel sick.

or in this case - http://www.standard.net/topics/drugs/2010/10/29/family-planning-lawsuit-prevent-repeat-drug-raid-shooting-death.

know this - f@#$ cops kick in my door in the middle of night like a bunch of jackbooted retards, kill my dog that's protecting my house - prepare to get shot. it's just plain crazy that we accept that cops are "in a tough position, need to make split second decisions, etc, etc, etc."...

We live in a world filled with imperfect people - those with badges and without. as a nation, and likely even more so as a people, we bear a responsibility to demand that those who we trust with power, use that power in a intelligent way, and should hold those people to a higher standard - we need to punish those who don't live up to that standard - of which there are many. We need to address the systems that cause this type of abuse of power to be a common occurrence. That's not to say that there are not situations where violent, and deadly action need to occur - but far too often lives are taken - both human and animal - unnecessarily, because those people in power lack common sense.

But this conversation, nor my comments, are about those cases.....:roll:

Know this, if by chance one day, the " f@#$ cops " kick in your door, kill your dog & you take a shot at them, I am sure they will fire back....

[ratagonia]

But this conversation, nor my comments, are about those cases.....:roll:

Know this, if by chance one day, the " f@#$ cops " kick in your door, kill your dog & you take a shot at them, I am sure they will fire back....

I also find a lot to agree with in your original, measured post, Deuce:


Guess I will give an uninformed opinion.... I will preface with, I feel bad for anyone who loses a loved one, even if that person appears to have a history of difficulty living within societal norms.

From what we see, it looks like more restraint on the side of the police officers could have been shown. But in that split second, someone standing there in a threatening position with something in their hands, tough call. Hindsight is always 20/20. I'd bet, even with the review coming out in his/her favor, the officer(s?) who shot wishes he/she could take back the decision, if given the opportunity with the current information. We ask these people to do a tough job. They have to make split second decisions that could cause them to take a life and/or lose theirs. I appreciate their service and what they do.

Bottom line, if you're slinging dope....sometimes bad chit happens to you.

But, the cops thought they were going after the same KIND of case in the bad examples. Last I heard, the penalty for slinging dope was not street execution, WITHIN the judicial system. In third-world countries, these are called "extra-judicial killing" - maybe we should start calling them that here.

Certainly from the video we can see, it looks like a hasty, extra-judicial killing. He messed up the order - he was supposed to say "Get on the Floor" first, then shoot if aggressive action was taken - not the other way around.

Lots that we don't know about this case.

Tom :moses:

[Sombeech]

To all of you who have thought this video to be shocking of how out of hand things can get, and then on the other hand want to restrict the freedom to arm & protect ourselves, shame on you.

If you take offense to this statement, I'll assume you fit the category.

[Iceaxe]

Last I heard, the penalty for slinging dope was not street execution.

Blair wasn't even slinging..... In the end he was found to have a small amount of weed for personal use and no meth was found. He wasn't a dealer, he was a user.

[erial]

To all of you who have thought this video to be shocking of how out of hand things can get, and then on the other hand want to restrict the freedom to arm & protect ourselves, shame on you.

If you take offense to this statement, I'll assume you fit the category.

Shamelessly, I'd be inclined to welcome an unrestricted right to legally possess marijuana over machine guns.

[ratagonia]

To all of you who have thought this video to be shocking of how out of hand things can get, and then on the other hand want to restrict the freedom to arm & protect ourselves, shame on you.

If you take offense to this statement, I'll assume you fit the category.

Kinda hard to see what you be getting at here, Beech. Sounds like it is a shame for ANYONE to have an opinion different than yours.

It is not a shame, it is democracy at work, and life in these United States.

Tom :moses:

[Cirrus2000]

To all of you who have thought this video to be shocking of how out of hand things can get, and then on the other hand want to restrict the freedom to arm & protect ourselves, shame on you.

If you take offense to this statement, I'll assume you fit the category.

Not offended. Amused.

[Sombeech]

I just find it odd that somebody can witness accounts where "innocent" people are totally helpless against the powers that be, and at the same time will condemn the right to protect ourselves from such actions.

[ratagonia]

I just find it odd that somebody can witness accounts where "innocent" people are totally helpless against the powers that be, and at the same time will condemn the right to protect ourselves from such actions.

Soooooo, you're advocating pulling a gun out to shoot at the SWAT Team descending on your house? Better than a golf club??? The outcome would be the same - you dead - but would evoke little sympathy from the YouTube club. If you shoot at the cops, you are ipso facto a perp.

I'm thinkin' your logic here Beech is rather illogical. I struggle with the concept that citizens being well-armed deters the Federal Government from tyranny. The next step in the process is not a general citizens rebellion which the Feds do not have the firepower to put down - it is localized citizen rebellions (perhaps) that the Feds have no problem putting down, meaning a bunch of body bags zipped front. "Second Amendment solution?" - does not seem to work.

Tom :moses:

[Sombeech]

I was thinking more like a bazooka, just like in the movies

[Deathcricket]

I'm seriously shocked. It's weird to me we even fight this whole war on drugs in the first place. It's bizarre to me we let these raids even happen. The officer(s) is under a lot of stress going into an unknown situation. Of course shit like is bound to happen! There is no excuse for what he did though IMO. He didn't even give the perp a chance to surrender. Just popped em 3x and then told him to get down, LOL.

But let's think for a second why it happened. We as a society advocate raiding someones house and taking away all his freedoms, then executing him FPS style, because he sells (or is reported to sell) a controlled substance? we actually let the government tell us what we can and can't ingest into our bodies as grown adults with free thinking minds? And then we kill the ones who disagree with that? I can't even wrap logic around this type of thinking really, and I'm probably not explaining it right. I can smoke a cigarette but not a joint, I can huff paint but not shoot cocaine? I can get a Xanax but not LSD? It's just weird where we draw the boundaries to me.

In closing, I'll post a video of some tests done in the 1950's and say these are not violent people. Most are peaceful and calm and not hurting a fly. We are the ones who bring violence to the "game" and we should be ashamed of ourselves as a society for letting this occur. In short, we murdered this man, it's our fault and we should bear the brunt of the responsibility for his death. We allowed it to go this far. And if you are so blind you can't see that, well then to quote the lady in this video "I feel sorry for you".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5d4wWGK4Ig&feature=player_embedded

[Iceaxe]

I'm seriously shocked. It's weird to me we even fight this whole war on drugs in the first place.

x2

Legalize ALL drugs, force the users to register and then tax the shit outta the drugs.

This would eliminate the illegal side of the trade - similar to what ending prohibition did to the illegal alcohol trade.

It would give the government a large source of money to get the addicts some real help... or allow the government to continue to warehouse addicts in prison like we do now.

Forcing the users to register would allow you to pinpoint those needing help.... and.... it would be a direct link to the ones doing the crimes. - a guys got a $500 per day habit and no job? easy to see who is doing the crime.

This war on drugs is not working.... time to try a different approach.....

[Jaxx]

The violence comes when they need money to get the drugs they are hooked on.

If we "tax the shit" out of drugs then people will still be cooking up cheap meth in the basement to sell cheaper than you can get legally.

[asdf]

The violence comes when they need money to get the drugs they are hooked on.

Are you speaking from experience, rumor, or hearsay?
Not picking a fight but thats a pretty cookie cutter statement and I wonder if there are any hard facts to back it up.

[Iceaxe]

The violence comes when they need money to get the drugs they are hooked on.

You obviously didn't read the ENTIRE post.... have anther try and we'll discuss.....

HINT: Legalization would eliminate the illegal side of the trade. It would give the government a large source of money to get the addicts some real help. Forcing the users to register would allow law enforcement to pinpoint those doing the crimes. The majority of violent crimes comes from gangs battling over drug turf. The current WAR on Drugs is not working.

[Sombeech]

HINT: Legalization would eliminate the illegal side of the trade. It would give the government a large source of money to get the addicts some real help. Forcing the users to register would allow law enforcement to pinpoint those doing the crimes. The majority of violent crimes comes from gangs battling over drug turf. The current WAR on Drugs is not working.

I'm still not convinced. It's like guns. Just because they're legal doesn't eliminate criminals from carrying them around or obtaining them illegally. Hence this is an argument too, thinking banning guns will magically make them disappear.

If Meth cooks can make more cash by making it and selling it wholesale, why register with the government? Plus, how would we force them to register?

And even legalizing for tax purposes, it still wouldn't make a dent in the deficit.

[ibenick]

I'm still not convinced. It's like guns. Just because they're legal doesn't eliminate criminals from carrying them around or obtaining them illegally.

BIG difference. People kill other people with guns. With drugs the worst thing that happens is they kill themselves.

[Jaxx]

Are you speaking from experience, rumor, or hearsay?
Not picking a fight but thats a pretty cookie cutter statement and I wonder if there are any hard facts to back it up.

I have some personal experience. Not from the user side. But most of it is from watching cops and the news



You obviously didn't read the ENTIRE post.... have anther try and we'll discuss.....

HINT: Legalization would eliminate the illegal side of the trade. It would give the government a large source of money to get the addicts some real help. Forcing the users to register would allow law enforcement to pinpoint those doing the crimes. The majority of violent crimes comes from gangs battling over drug turf. The current WAR on Drugs is not working.

how would it eliminate the illegal side? How do you force someone to register? If it is cheaper to grow/buy illegally then there still will be a market for that.
You don't need to be a condisending asshole just because I don't agree with you. Your idea has some flaws IMO. Try honey instead of vinegar.


BIG difference. People kill other people with guns. With drugs the worst thing that happens is they kill themselves.

I though I was the blanket statement guy!

No one has been hurt by someone on drugs? No children neglected, no murders over drugs or because the person was on drugs? No robberies for drug money? I'm not buying that one...wait, did I just get hooked by your trolling? You can't really believe that.

For what it is worth I used to think that drug use was no biggie. People could use and it really didn't affect others mostly. I changed my opinion when I became a foster parent.
41036

[asdf]

I have some personal experience. Not from the user side. But most of it is from watching cops and the news

Out of ALL the violence in the world what percentage do you think is directly attributed to drugs? Pretty much impossible to figure I know but I would guess the number is pretty small when compared to religion.



It's like guns.

well.... only if you can prove that people are manufacturing guns in their homes and selling them illegally.

[chromehead58]

How can one argue that this person got what was coming as he was living outside the law..first is he not innocent until proven guilty?? Secondly as you speed so often does that mean that you should get killed by a drunk driver?
as for the illegalization of drugs..this article is amazing to read...

In Salt Lake Tribune 12/27/10
Portugal’s drug policy pays off
By BARRY HATTON and MARTHA MENDOZA
The Associated Press
Published: December 26, 2010 08:07PM
Updated: December 27, 2010 12:11AM

In this Tuesday, Nov. 30, 2010 picture, Judge Garret Wong, center, listens to lawyers in conference at the Behavioral Health Court in San Francisco. At left is public defender Jennifer Johnson and at right is assistant district attorney Van Ly. Behavioral Health Court (BHC), a collaborative court with the San Francisco Superior Court, addresses the complex needs of mentally ill defendants with co-occurring substance use disorders by diverting them from the jail and into appropriate community treatment. In this program, judges can offer a chance for users to go to rehab, get jobs, move into houses, find primary care physicians, even remove their tattoos. There is enough data now to show that these alternative courts reduce recidivism and save money. (AP Photo/Eric Risberg)
EDITOR’S NOTE •This is part of an occasional series by The Associated Press examining the U.S. struggles in its war on drugs after four decades and $1 trillion.
Lisbon, Portugal • These days, Casal Ventoso is an ordinary blue-collar community — mothers push baby strollers, men smoke outside cafes, buses chug up and down the cobbled main street.
Ten years ago, the Lisbon neighborhood was a hellhole, a “drug supermarket” where some 5,000 users lined up every day to buy heroin and sneak into a hillside honeycomb of derelict housing to shoot up. In dark, stinking corners, addicts — some with maggots squirming under track marks — staggered between the occasional corpse, scavenging used, bloody needles.
At that time, Portugal, like the junkies of Casal Ventoso, had hit rock bottom: An estimated 100,000 people — an astonishing 1 percent of its population — were addicted to illegal drugs. So, like anyone with little to lose, the Portuguese took a risky leap: They decriminalized the use of all drugs in a groundbreaking law in 2000.
Now, the United States, which has waged a 40-year, $1 trillion war on drugs, is looking for answers in tiny Portugal, which is reaping the benefits of what once looked like a dangerous gamble. White House drug czar Gil Kerlikowske visited Portugal in September to learn about its drug reforms, and other countries — including Norway, Denmark, Australia and Peru — have taken interest, too.
“The disasters that were predicted by critics didn’t happen,” said University of Kent professor Alex Stevens, who has studied Portugal’s program. “The answer was simple: Provide treatment.”
———
Drugs in Portugal are still illegal. But here’s what Portugal did: It changed the law so that users are sent to counseling and sometimes treatment instead of criminal courts and prison. The switch from drugs as a criminal issue to a public health one was aimed at preventing users from going underground.
Other European countries treat drugs as a public health problem, too, but Portugal stands out as the only one that has written that approach into law. The result: More people tried drugs, but fewer ended up addicted.
Here’s what happened between 2000 and 2008:
•There were small increases in illicit drug use among adults, but decreases for adolescents and problem users such as drug addicts and prisoners.
• Drug-related court cases dropped 66 percent.
• Drug-related HIV cases dropped 75 percent. In 2002, 49 percent of people with AIDS were addicts; by 2008 that number fell to 28 percent.
• The number of regular users held steady at less than 3 percent of the population for marijuana and less than 0.3 percent for heroin and cocaine — figures that show decriminalization brought no surge in drug use.
• The number of people treated for drug addiction rose 20 percent from 2001 to 2008.
Portuguese Prime Minister Jose Socrates, one of the chief architects of the new drug strategy, says he was inspired partly by his own experience of helping his brother beat an addiction.
“It was a very hard change to make at the time because the drug issue involves lots of prejudices,” he said. “You just need to rid yourselves of prejudice and take an intelligent approach.”
Officials have not yet worked out the cost of the program, but they expect no increase in spending, since most of the money was diverted from the justice system to the public health service.
In Portugal today, outreach health workers provide addicts with fresh needles, swabs, little dishes to cook up the injectable mixture, disinfectant and condoms. But anyone caught with even a small amount of drugs is automatically sent to what is known as a Dissuasion Committee for counseling. The committees include legal experts, psychologists and social workers.
Failure to turn up can result in fines, mandatory treatment or other sanctions. In serious cases, the panel recommends the user be sent to a treatment center.
Health workers also shepherd some addicts off the streets directly into treatment. That’s what happened to 33-year-old Tiago, who is struggling to kick heroin at a Lisbon rehab facility.
Tiago, who requested that his first name only be used to protect his privacy, started taking heroin when he was 20. He shot up four or five times a day, sleeping for years in an abandoned car where, with his addicted girlfriend, he fathered a child he has never seen.
At the airy Lisbon treatment center where he now lives, Tiago plays table tennis, surfs the Internet and watches TV. He helps with cleaning and other odd jobs. And he’s back to his normal weight after dropping to 50 kilograms (110 pounds) during his addiction.
After almost six months on methadone, each day trimming his intake, he brims with hope about his upcoming move to a home run by the Catholic church where recovered addicts are offered a fresh start.
“I just ask God that it’ll be the first and last time — the first time I go to a home and the last time I go through detox,” he said.
Portugal’s program is widely seen as effective, but some say it has shortcomings.
Antonio Lourenco Martins is a former Portuguese Supreme Court judge who sat on a 1998 commission that drafted the new drug strategy and was one of two on the nine-member panel who voted against decriminalization. He admits the law has done some good, but complains that its approach is too soft.
Francisco Chaves, who runs a Lisbon treatment center, also recognizes that addicts might exploit goodwill.
“We know that (when there is) a lack of pressure, none of us change or are willing to change,” Chaves said.
———
Worldwide, a record 93 countries offered alternatives to jail time for drug abuse in 2010, according to the International Harm Reduction Association. They range from needle exchanges in Cambodia to methadone treatment in Poland.
Vancouver, Canada, has North America’s first legal drug consumption room — dubbed as “a safe, health-focused place where people inject drugs and connect to health care services.” Brazil and Uruguay have eliminated jail time for people carrying small amounts of drugs for personal use.
Whether the alternative approaches work seems to depend on how they are carried out. In the Netherlands, where police ignore the peaceful consumption of illegal drugs, drug use and dealing are rising, according to the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction. Five Dutch cities are implementing new restrictions on marijuana cafes after a wave of drug-related gang violence.
However, in Switzerland, where addicts are supervised as they inject heroin, addiction has steadily declined. No one has died from an overdose there since the program began in 1994, according to medical studies. The program is also credited with reducing crime and improving addicts’ health.
The Obama administration firmly opposes the legalization of drugs, saying it would increase access and promote acceptance, according to drug czar Kerlikowske. The U.S. is spending $74 billion this year on criminal and court proceedings for drug offenders, compared with $3.6 billion for treatment.
But even the U.S. has taken small steps toward Portugal’s approach of more intervention and treatment programs, and Kerlikowske has called for an end to the “War on Drugs” rhetoric.
“Calling it a war really limits your resources,” he said. “Looking at this as both a public safety problem and a public health problem seems to make a lot more sense.”
There is no guarantee that Portugal’s approach would work in the U.S., which has a population 29 times larger than Portugal’s 10.6 million.
Still, an increasing number of American cities are offering nonviolent drug offenders a chance to choose treatment over jail, and the approach appears to be working.
In San Francisco’s gritty Tenderloin neighborhood, Tyrone Cooper, a 52-year-old lifelong drug addict, can’t stop laughing at how a system that has put him in jail a dozen times now has him on the road to recovery.
“Instead of going to smoke crack, I went to a rehab meeting,” he said. “Can you believe it? Me! A meeting! I mean, there were my boys, right there smoking crack, and Tyrone walked right past them. ‘Sorry,’ I told them, ‘I gotta get to this meeting.’”
Cooper is one of hundreds of San Franciscans who landed in a court program this year where judges offered them a chance to go to rehab, get jobs, move into houses, find primary care physicians and even remove their tattoos. There is enough data now to show that these alternative courts reduce recidivism and save money.
Between 4 and 29 percent of drug court participants in the United States will get caught using drugs again, compared with 48 percent of those who go through traditional courts.
San Francisco’s drug court saves the city $14,297 per offender, officials said. Expanding drug courts to all 1.5 million drug offenders in the U.S. would cost more than $13 billion annually, but would return more than $40 billion, according to a study by John Roman, a senior researcher at the Urban Institute’s Justice Policy Center.
The first drug court opened in the U.S. 21 years ago. By 1999, there were 472; by 2005, 1,250.
This year, new drug courts opened every week around the U.S., as states faced budget crises exacerbated by the high rate of incarceration for drug offenses. There are now drug courts in every state, more than 2,400 serving 120,000 people.
Last year, New York lawmakers followed their counterparts across the U.S. who have tossed out tough, 40-year-old drug laws and mandatory sentences, giving judges unprecedented sentencing options. The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services is also training doctors to screen patients for potential addiction and reimbursing Medicare and Medicaid providers who do so.
Arizona recently became the 15th U.S. state to approve medical use of marijuana, following California’s 2006 legislation.
———
In Portugal, the blight that once destroyed the Casal Ventoso neighborhood is a distant memory.
Americo Nave, a 39-year-old psychologist, remembers the chilling stories his colleagues brought back after the first team of health workers was sent into Casal Ventoso in the late 1990s. Some addicts had gangrene, and their arms had to be amputated.
Those days are past, though there are vestiges. About a dozen frail, mostly unkempt men recently gathered next to a bus stop to get new needles and swabs in small green plastic bags from health workers, as part of a twice-weekly program. Some ducked out of sight behind walls to shoot up, and one crouched behind trash cans, trying to shield his lighter flame from the wind.
A 37-year-old man who would only identify himself as Joao said he’s been using heroin for 22 years. He has contracted Hepatitis C, and recalls picking up used, bloody needles from the sidewalk. Now he comes regularly to the needle exchange.
“These teams ... have helped a lot of people,” he said, struggling to concentrate as he draws on a cigarette.
The decayed housing that once hid addicts has long since been bulldozed. And this year, Lisbon’s city council planted 600 trees and 16,500 bushes on the hillside.
This spring they’re expected to bloom.
———
Mendoza reported from San Diego, California.

[Sombeech]

Out of ALL the violence in the world what percentage do you think is directly attributed to drugs? Pretty much impossible to figure I know but I would guess the number is pretty small when compared to religion.




well.... only if you can prove that people are manufacturing guns in their homes and selling them illegally.

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/9214/12416292702917300170.gif

[asdf]

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/9214/12416292702917300170.gif

Typical

[Scott P]

With drugs the worst thing that happens is they kill themselves.


If only it were true. Before moving to Colorado, my job in SLC was in a toxicology (drug testing) lab. We would have to do drug test after accidents (work, car, train, etc.). A majority of tests from accidents were positive for drugs or alcolhol.

Some extended family members have been heavily into drugs. One of them fried her brain doing drugs and is now on permanant diability from the government and everyone reading this thread is paying for it through your tax $. In our old neiborhood in Fruita, one of the houses was found to be a meth lab. The children and wife are now supported fully by the government.

I also work for the highway department. There are now warning signs all over telling people not to open bags, coolers or containers along side the highway. Waste from drug labs is dumped along the highway in containers (we call them death bags). At least one flagger opened a cooler that was left along the highway and was severely injured (including permanent lung damage). Some people have ceased to do Adopt the Highway anymore because of the danger of picking up any container that might contain such waste.

As how many social workers how many of the children that are in foster care are there as a result of drugs.

Drugs definately do hurt others. If drugs were legalized, punishment for accidents must be severe, medical benifits that cost everyone else should be denied and the people should not be allowed to have children. It doesn't matter if they only hurt themselves, but if drugs are legalized then punishments for hurting others must be severe (and fair).

[moabfool]

Hope they got the right guy.... Yup, gov'mint always gets the right guy. He's even righter if he can no longer complain...

T

I know a guy that's WAY BIG into guns. He discovered air soft guns and uses them for target practice. He even set up an air soft shooting range in his basement. One day he was walking up his stairs carrying a very real looking air soft weapon when his door broke in and a bunch of SWAT Officers came piling in. "PUT THE WEAPON DOWN!" He did, and he got a cop dog pile on top of him. The cops wanted the dude next door.

Moral of the story: Have your address clearly displayed on the front of your house and on the curb if possible. Besides that, check your neighbors' houses to be sure they have the right numbers too.

[bbennett]

"PUT THE WEAPON DOWN"- What a novel idea. They actually gave the guy a chance to put down his "weapon" rather than just killing him and then telling him "get on the ground"? Obviously this didn't occur in Weber County. If it had, your friend would most certainly be dead right now and the state of Utah would have deemed his death as justifiable.

I think the real moral of your story, along with the state endorsed homicide shown in the video, is that you should never feel safe in your own home and the police can take your life at any time without any ramifications. Before you move a weapon or a set of golf clubs from one room to another think to yourself "is this really worth my life?” If you live in Weber County, you may want to call the police and let them know what you plan on doing, just incase they find the need to break down your door on that particular day.

I appreciate the police and the "protect and serve" ideology. However, I don't appreciate the fact that I live in a society that doesn't blink an eye when this kind abuse of power occurs. I think I would feel better about this if the officer received some kind of punishment. Something as simple as "hey officer douche bag, while we consider the murder that you committed to be justified, we wish that you would have considered giving your victim the chance to drop his weapon before you so hastily riddled him with bullets. As a result of your trigger finger, you must now take the next 30 days off without pay."

I don't know what's going on in the police department as a result of this, but I sure hope that they are considering some policy changes. I don't think it's too much to expect that all police officers should give any suspect the opportunity to drop their weapon if the situation, like this one, allows for it.

[Jaxx]

Out of ALL the violence in the world what percentage do you think is directly attributed to drugs?

How about the number of people affected by drug users. Be it theft, neglecting children, being on assistance that the tax payer pays for, etc. It's not just about violence. Drugs are bad Mkkkkkaaaayyy.


Pretty much impossible to figure I know but I would guess the number is pretty small when compared to religion.

Wow. Are you speaking from experience, rumor, or hearsay? :haha:

So should we legalize all drugs and ban all religion? What good has come from recreational use of drugs? Besides the high the user gets and the money the dealer makes I can't think of one. Mabey someone with more experience can enlighten me. Mabey someone knows a story where a guy got high and saved a bus full of children that were going to get hit by a train when their bus stalled on the tracks and the only reason he could push the buss off the tracks was because of the super strength he received from meth! :lol8:

I think medical marijuana has its place, mabey some of the other drugs could be used for certain medical reasons. I'm sure they will be abused and people who don't really need it will want it but it can't be any worse than some of the legal RX drugs out there now.

[on topic] I think the cop shot pretty quickly but I wasn't there. Don't put your life in the hands of someone else to decide if their shooting you was justified or not.

[Jaxx]

"PUT THE WEAPON DOWN"- What a novel idea. They actually gave the guy a chance to put down his "weapon" rather than just killing him and then telling him "get on the ground"? Obviously this didn't occur in Weber County. If it had, your friend would most certainly be dead right now and the state of Utah would have deemed his death as justifiable.

I think the real moral of your story, along with the state endorsed homicide shown in the video, is that you should never feel safe in your own home and the police can take your life at any time without any ramifications. Before you move a weapon or a set of golf clubs from one room to another think to yourself "is this really worth my life?” If you live in Weber County, you may want to call the police and let them know what you plan on doing, just incase they find the need to break down your door on that particular day.

I appreciate the police and the "protect and serve" ideology. However, I don't appreciate the fact that I live in a society that doesn't blink an eye when this kind abuse of power occurs. I think I would feel better about this if the officer received some kind of punishment. Something as simple as "hey officer douche bag, while we consider the murder that you committed to be justified, we wish that you would have considered giving your victim the chance to drop his weapon before you so hastily riddled him with bullets. As a result of your trigger finger, you must now take the next 30 days off without pay."

I don't know what's going on in the police department as a result of this, but I sure hope that they are considering some policy changes. I don't think it's too much to expect that all police officers should give any suspect the opportunity to drop their weapon if the situation, like this one, allows for it.


Well put. I think the problem is that the people who "investigate" this are also paid by the state. They don't want the state to have to deal with a wrongful death lawsuit. So the justified finding is a way to protect from that.

[ststephen]

What good has come from recreational use of drugs? .

How about "Fantasia" by Walt Disney? Then there is pretty much the entire Jagger/Richards song catalog...

[asdf]

Wow. Are you speaking from experience, rumor, or hearsay? :haha:


The statement was meant to be rhetoric but if you would like "proof" I suggest you start with the bible.
Was 911 drug related? Do you hate America?


So should we legalize all drugs and ban all religion?
Nope


I think medical marijuana has its place

I demand that you stop making sense.



What good has come from recreational use of drugs?

a list too long to post

[Jaxx]

How about "Fantasia" by Walt Disney? Then there is pretty much the entire Jagger/Richards song catalog...

OK you won. I was thinking of the music I listen to. I fully support all recreational drug use for entertainers. :2thumbs:

[asdf]

OK you won. I was thinking of the music I listen to. I fully support all recreational drug use for entertainers. :2thumbs:

:lol8:

[ratagonia]

I don't know what's going on in the police department as a result of this, but I sure hope that they are considering some policy changes.


Change of policy: no more video records of raids.

How did that get out, anyway?

T :moses:

[Felicia]

Change of policy: no more video records of raids.

How did that get out, anyway?

T :moses:

There is much information missing. They way I understand it, they executed a no-knock warrant. This means that they did not need to knock. How do you know that there was no knock? Night service on a warrant usually requires judicial consent beyond a regular bench warrant. Etc.....way too many missing details. As for video, in the past agencies embraced them until the discovery process burden the agencies to the point that video is being dropped. Also - what is seen on a clip of video is not all that is occurring at that moment. Often I have seen video from one camera tell a very different story from video from another camera at a separate angel of the same event.