Canyoneering Instructional Videos???

[ratagonia]

I have started working with ZAC on some instructional videos for canyoneering. Since things are rather quiet, here in the canyoneering forum, I wonder what specific videos people are interested in seeing???

Tom :moses:

[trackrunner]

how to drill and place lots and lots of bolts :amazon::deadhorse:

:haha:








j/k or maybe I'm not :twisted: :haha:

[jman]

Hmm...I would say anchor building and equalizing.

[p40whk]

Hmm...I would say anchor building and equalizing.

Agree with this, recommended knots would be a bonus for this as well

[ststephen]

Along with anchor building, how about evaluating in-place anchors one finds in the field. I'm guessing folks do that almost as often as they build them.

[remoteman45]

Self rescue and ascending techniques are always good to learn about or be refreshed on.

[Iceaxe]

Setting your anchor webbing to the correct length.

I seldom encounter anchors where the webbing is set to the ideal length to create an easy rope pull, create a reason start to the rappel, and eliminate rope grooves.

[jman]

I guess what I'm getting at is how to maximize strength of a constructed anchor system when using very marginal anchors?

Yes, Precisely!


Another suggestion for a video would be showcasing the different descender devices and how to stop, tie off, and adding friction while rappelling, for each device.

[trackrunner]

Setting your anchor webbing to the correct length.

I seldom encounter anchors where the webbing is set to the ideal length to create an easy rope pull, create a reason start to the rappel, and eliminate rope grooves.

along with this how to set up a curtousy anchor for less experienced canyoneers and only the last canyoneer has to deal with an awkward start.

[Jaxx]

Self rescue and ascending techniques are always good to learn about or be refreshed on.

I would also like to see that.

Anchor building is always a good one to.

[flatiron]

1) All of the above
2) how to buy and attach helmet to head while doing tech canyons (did I really see a fav pic of adult taking his kids thru canyon with NO helmet?) :eek2:

[Scott Card]

Sand trap use and placement

[Iceaxe]

Sand trap use and placement

Just curious if this would be worth while as I'm guessing the number of Sandtraps sold to date is pretty small?

Personally I'm still trying to figure out why I need a Sandtrap outside of wanting to be one of the cool kids on the block.... I have never need one before, why would I want one now? I'm all about eliminating items from my pack, not adding more....

If making a Sandtrap video it would probably be better served to use it as a marketing tool....

[Iceaxe]

L.M.A.R, sequencing and teamwork video?

[trackrunner]

Sand trap use and placement

didn't steve already make one? a copy should be on this forum somewhere


L.M.A.R, sequencing and teamwork video?

X2 I was just going to post this:iagree:

[ratagonia]

1) All of the above
2) how to buy and attach helmet to head while doing tech canyons (did I really see a fav pic of adult taking his kids thru canyon with NO helmet?) :eek2:

Scott is particularly hard-headed, and has passed the hard-headed gene on to his kids. He sent me his x-ray showing that his genetic line (Homo pattersoni) had developed an abs-like skull layer, plus a shock-absorbing system around the brain, so a helmet is not particularly useful to him and his progeny. Thus I no longer hassle him about not wearing a helmet.

Other Bogley members who have similarly developed substantially more effective skulls than Homo sapiens are welcome to send me an x-ray to verify such, thus exempting them from the Tom-no-helmet diatribe when they post pictures.

Unfortunately, our non-disclosure agreement prevents me from posting these interesting x-rays.

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

Just curious if this would be worth while as I'm guessing the number of Sandtraps sold to date is pretty small?

Personally I'm still trying to figure out why I need a Sandtrap outside of wanting to be one of the cool kids on the block.... I have never need one before, why would I want one now? I'm all about eliminating items from my pack, not adding more....

If making a Sandtrap video it would probably be better served to use it as a marketing tool....

You are correct, Mr. Ice, on all points. Yes, there probably will be a SandTrap video, but it is considered part of the product line video series, rather than instructional. The SandTrap works REALLY WELL in a certain kind of canyon, but is not generally useful.

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

Sand trap use and placement

FWIW: Here is Steve's instructional video of his MaxxiPad....

Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfefhzUzQRE


Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUDcFTYRX8I


Part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eArzonLrV34

[mtthwlw]

I'd like to see a video on what to do when your rope gets stuck. (Besides scratching "DO NOT TAKE ROPES" into the sandstone.)

Ascending. Passing knots. That kind of stuff. I think this could be part of a LMAR video.

Also on a LMAR video, I think a sequence like the one on the last Heaps rap would be nice (the rap and lower, send up rope etc.)

[Iceaxe]

Everyone always wants video/class/etc on passing knots.... In all my years of canyoneering I have never had to pass a knot in anger (did it a couple times for giggles while messing around). While it's nice to have the ability to pass the knot its not really a skill you will likely ever use.

Has anyone here ever actually been forced (meaning it was the only option) to pass a knot while canyoneering? If so, I'd like the hear the details.

[moab mark]

Can you get those two young ladies from Dave Blacks book for the students?:naughty: As far as a video I would like one on self rescue etc.

[jman]

Everyone always wants video/class/etc on passing knots.... In all my years of canyoneering I have never had to pass a knot in anger (did it a couple times for giggles while messing around). While it's nice to have the ability to pass the knot its not really a skill you will likely ever use.

Has anyone here ever actually been forced (meaning it was the only option) to pass a knot while canyoneering? If so, I'd like the hear the details.

Never canyoneering...but caving once. The Eureka bottomless put and tied 3 200ft rope together. Wasn't too hard to pass, but ascending was a pain!

[Iceaxe]

Never canyoneering...but caving once.

I can understand caving.... that's a differnet animal.

[Iceaxe]

I do know one good story about passing the knot.

Two canyoneers were doing Heaps with two 60 meter ropes, they had stashed a 300' rope at the Upper Emerald Pool. The plan was the first guy down would pass the knot and send the 300' rope back up for the second guy to slide down. They would then use the two 60's for a pull chord.

Now the problem is the second guy sitting in the bird perch for the final Heaps rappel can't see the rope or his partner once they disappear over the edge. Those who have done Heaps will understand why the geometry makes seeing anything directly below impossible....

Anyhoo.... the first guy down is wearing his backpack, when he gets to the knot he decides its going to be much easier to pass if he sheds his backpack... so he cuts it loose and lets it fly.....

The poor second guy is sitting up in the bird perch and hears a loud THUD!

The second guy is certain his partner just cratered in..... and sheepishly starts asking the tourist below "is he still alive?"

[nelsonccc]

Everyone always wants video/class/etc on passing knots.... In all my years of canyoneering I have never had to pass a knot in anger (did it a couple times for giggles while messing around). While it's nice to have the ability to pass the knot its not really a skill you will likely ever use.

Has anyone here ever actually been forced (meaning it was the only option) to pass a knot while canyoneering? If so, I'd like the hear the details.

I've had to do it once, and had a party member do it another time. We we're doing Chute canyon to fix ropes for a 2 days of ascents out of a couple of canyons in the area. I had beent old that the first rap was a certain distance but definately not over 200'. We couldn't see the bottom. So I started down and reached the end of the rope about 40 feet above the ground. So I had my buddy lower down another rope, I tied them together and passed the knot. He then rapped and I talked him through passing the knot as well.

The second time was a similiar rap where the bottom couldn't be seen. We'd tossed the rope and it's Imlay rope bag as usual. The first guy down, reached a knot that been looped into the rope somehow during the uncoil. Normally you would just tie off and oull it up and undo the rope. However, the rope bag was stuck on a log at the bottom and he couldn't pull it up. He passed the knot, and then the 2nd guy down pulled it up and undid the rope.

[mtthwlw]

.... In all my years of canyoneering I have never had to pass a knot in anger (did it a couple times for giggles while messing around). While it's nice to have the ability to pass the knot its not really a skill you will likely ever use.

For me, a relative beginner, passing a knot isn't something I'd like to plan on, but just something I'd like to know how to do-- just in case, or just 'cause I like to know how to do stuff "for giggles". And while it's not something I'd likely ever have to do in a canyon, I'd like to be able to practice it on ropes in the garage on a rainy day or in the winter when it's too cold to actually go out and play.

Most things I've learned in classes have had very little reflection on the average trip into a canyon-- and I'm ok with that. I'd rather not have an emergency in a canyon.

[ratagonia]

Can you get those two young ladies from Dave Blacks book for the students?:naughty: As far as a video I would like one on self rescue etc.

I probably could, Mark, but in my case it might be considered a felony...

Tom :moses:

[Bo_Beck]

What? Do not physics count in the SERIOUS business of Canyoneering? Ack! Thanks DS!

[Bo_Beck]

In all my many, many vast years of canyoneering experience I've never had to cut my own arm off using a dull blade. Maybe some video on the proper technique? Heck with passing knots.....would never have to do this! Have you?

[Iceaxe]

What? Do not physics count in the SERIOUS business of Canyoneering? Ack! Thanks DS!

Physics count.... in fact it was deemed important enough that a separate thread was requested by the emperor.... follow it here:

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?42700

[Iceaxe]

In all my many, many vast years of canyoneering experience I've never had to cut my own arm off using a dull blade. Maybe some video on the proper technique? Heck with passing knots.....would never have to do this! Have you?

In regards to passing the knot.... my position was not that it will NEVER happen... my humble opinion was it is rare and a bigger bang for the buck might be obtained by concentrating the video efforts elsewhere.

Which was also the same opinion I have in regards to Sandtraps and cutting off your own arm... YMMV....

[Brian in SLC]

In regards to passing the knot.... my position was not that it will NEVER happen... my humble opinion was it is rare and a bigger bang for the buck might be obtained by concentrating the video efforts elsewhere.

I have one of the euro instructional DVD's that came with the Canyonisme book. Wish it was in English...

I think a good instructional video on just the basics of rappelling technique would be good. What to do, what not to do. Could show all aspects. Rigging, rope deployment, dry, wet, flow, no flow. Body position, hand position. How to control friction. Different rope diameters, different rappel devices including how to deal when you drop your ATC, etc. Proper gear. When to use a back up, how. Convert to ascend.

Some self rescue stuff, specifically folks stuck on rappel would be good. Also, how to deal with someone incapable of rappelling (injury).

Another thing is problem solving, and, some techniques for how to analyze certain situations. When to just go, when to not just go. How to get past certain obsticles.

Anchoring would be good, too. Using both natural and fixed anchors. How to evaluate. How to rig.

You know a "how to bolt" video would be pretty useful, especially if it could show options for not bolting. How to do partner assists, last man at risk type down climbing, meat anchors, etc.

Cheers.

[peakbaggers]

How about more on GHOSTING techniques, anchors, etc. In addition, I'd like to see some honest discussion about ghosting and backup anchors.

[Iceaxe]

In addition, I'd like to see some honest discussion about ghosting and backup anchors.

Not sure exactly what you mean by "honest"... but start a new thread with 'ghosting and back-up anchors' in the title and ask some questions. That's the easiest way to get a discussion going.

[ratagonia]

Not sure exactly what you mean by "honest"... but start a new thread with 'ghosting and back-up anchors' in the title and ask some questions. That's the easiest way to get a discussion going.

What he said. Tom

[Felicia]

I like videos as I think videos are a great way to show an activity that is difficult to explain in words. I would be interested in the multiple uses of slings such as hanging your pack, extending your rappel device, clipping into an anchor etc. I know that these are rather 'simple' to most of us as we have had opportunities to learn from each other, but we can all afford to learn more and the info will be great for the noobs of the future.

[RAM]

Just curious if this would be worth while as I'm guessing the number of Sandtraps sold to date is pretty small?

Personally I'm still trying to figure out why I need a Sandtrap outside of wanting to be one of the cool kids on the block.... I have never need one before, why would I want one now? I'm all about eliminating items from my pack, not adding more....

If making a Sandtrap video it would probably be better served to use it as a marketing tool....

Just figured out that me and my pals used it for over 200 raps last year. Those that have never seen one in action often have the above quoted opinion. Others have questions and doubts about its safety. Those that get the chance to use it, fall in love with it. That has played out over and over again. As Tom implied, its not for everywhere. Super narrow slots? No. Trade routes? Not necessary. Where it really excels is in pothole canyons. REALLY excels there! It also fills in a niche that has been lacking anchor wise. The featureless lip, into a rap, sans arches, knot chocks cracks or chockstones. These type places used to require tedious deadmen anchors, long threads of webbing and rock hauling. Now, these drops are simple and fast. And when your done with the drop, all that is evidence to your passage is a few footprints and some sand now at the bottom of a drop that used to be at the top of the drop

A near unanimous consensus formed among many partners who use the trap. The world is SO much safer, when exploring new canyons, when you have a sandtrap or two along. Many have said that they sleep easier the night before. Count me among them. Now if you are not doing pothole canyons or explorations, you probably don't need one, but I have heard more than one proponent say out loud that they can't imagine going into the unknown canyon without one now and wonder how they had the nerve to do so in the past. YMMV.
Ram

[jman]

Tom, it looks like you need to do an entire instructional DVD, with the said requests above to appease the masses. Lol

[ratagonia]

The instructional video for cutting your arm off has already been done, though they seemed to take quite a while to get to the actual cutting-the-arm-off part. Unless Jonathan is really into it, I doubt we will do that one. Sorry to disappoint the fans...

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

but I have heard more than one proponent say out loud that they can't imagine going into the unknown canyon without one now and wonder how they had the nerve to do so in the past. YMMV.

Maybe they never heard of a bolt kit or G-pick. :lol8:

[Brian in SLC]

....SO much safer, when exploring new canyons, when you have a sandtrap or two along. Many have said that they sleep easier the night before. Count me among them. Now if you are not doing pothole canyons or explorations, you probably don't need one, but I have heard more than one proponent say out loud that they can't imagine going into the unknown canyon without one now and wonder how they had the nerve to do so in the past. YMMV.
Ram

When all you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail...

Ha ha.

[Scott Card]

When all you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail...

Ha ha.Or a knife blade/piton........ping!!!!:haha:

Been there, done that in Earldly many years ago when I couldn't find the anchor on the last rap. Found out later it was a couple of feet underwater. Wish there would have been sandtraps back then.... or other skills. I still feel a bit guilty for placing a blade but that is what I had and the only thing I knew how to use in that circumstance. All safely descended to the bottom so I feel justified but I still feel a little guilty for the blade being placed, now that I know there were other options. (but not guilty enough to repeat that nasty canyon and go get it...:haha:)

[Iceaxe]

When all you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail...

Ha ha.

:roflol::roflol: :roflol: ....Mountain Dew just squirted out of my nose....

[Scott Card]

I can only assume that you, Shane and Brian, are joking because I know that to imply that Ram has only one tool in the tool bag is just absolute :crazy:. Not too many people I'd rather canyoneer with than Ram. He is a great canyoneereer and an even better person.

[CarpeyBiggs]

of course they are joking. it is simply reflecting the fact they've never used it, and that bdc champions the bolting option more often than most... that's the irony, hence the hammer comment. most people who do canyons like to have as many options as possible. if you are doing anything more than the trade routes, it definitely will see a lot of use. but it only works in pretty specific situations. thankfully, those situations are remarkably common in most slots not in moab or zion.

i imagine a small sandtrap video that is short and concise would have some benefit, though i think there are probably two dozen topics that deserve time before it does.

[Brian in SLC]

of course they are joking. it is simply reflecting the fact they've never used it, and that bdc champions the bolting option more often than most... that's the irony, hence the hammer comment.

You got it...too easy when you get these fat ones down the middle...

You dance with them who brung ya.

You don't carry a hammer and bolt kit, well, then that option won't exist. You carry a sandtrap, then, it becomes part of the kit and will be an option.

Yeah, not too many folks have a bigger tool than Ram... Uhh, I meant tool kit. Ha ha!

Its an interesting game, though. And one played for years (and debated ad nauseum for some) by climbers. Still a hot topic.


"Play the game for more than you can afford to lose... only then will you learn the game."
-Winston Churchill

[Iceaxe]

I can only assume that you, Shane and Brian, are joking because.....

I just find it amusing how every new piece of gear is hyped.......

Some of you were around when the Happy Hooker was introduced. Many bought it because you "have heard more than one proponent say out loud that they can't imagine going into the unknown canyon without one now and wonder how they had the nerve to do so in the past."

Visit the ACA forum and the members are drooling over the Totem, holding Totem workshops, making Totem video's, and many can't imagine what life was like before it's introduction.

Some of you have even been around long enough to remember when "bolt kit" was the first recommendation in every piece of available beta.

Drysuits.... at one time no canyoneer worth his salt would be caught dead without a drysuit.

How many of you own an Omnisling? how often do you use it?

The list is endless.... some things were more useful that others and became staples.... 5.10 Canyoneers, grommets in the bottom of backpacks, 8mm ropes, static ropes..... but all were hyped to high heaven when they were first introduced....

The idea that became the Sandtrap has been floating around in one form or anther for at least 15 years, The first time I saw the idea it was done with a heavy duty dry bag and used water instead of sand.... or was that really a watertrap?.... whatever, it was going to revolutionize canyoneering, it was going to be big.....

Anyhoo..... I have no doubt the Sandtrap is useful, does what it says it will do, or that it has a place in the canyoneering arsenal.... where that place is has yet to be determined (IMHO).

And I'm as guilty as the next guy of hyping a new piece of gear that catches my fancy so maybe I shouldn't throw stones..... its just human nature to be overly excited about something new....

[CarpeyBiggs]

cetainly, lots of gear gets hyped. that is the evolution and progression of things. it's that way in all outdoor pursuits that require gear. people love having new tools, especially when they are lighter, safer, and faster. which the sandtrap is.

so in that sense, it's place has already been determined. it's the single most useful retrievable anchor system designed for the colorado plateau yet.

for someone as avowedly anti-bolt as yourself, it is kind of funny to hear you downplay the thing. i think what you are trying to say is that YOU haven't found a place for it. and you likely never will. you don't do the type of canyons it is designed for. period. so yeah, your opinion should be taken lightly.

[Iceaxe]

you don't do the type of canyons it is designed for. period. so yeah, your opinion should be taken lightly.

Which is back to my original point.... 99% of canyoneers don't do the type of canyon it was designed for..... small audience... the time would be better spent on making other video's.... Which is what the tread is about...

You have to understand that while I'm anti-bolt I don't see the canyons exactly as you see them.... I doubt I will never use a sandtrap regardless of canyon, because I expect others to follow my routes after I post the beta. And a sandtrap is not something I'm inclined to consider as standard kit at this time.... YMMV...

[CarpeyBiggs]

I doubt I will never use a sandtrap regardless of canyon, because I expect others to follow my routes after I post the beta. And a sandtrap is not something I'm inclined to consider as standard kit at this time.... YMMV...
:lol8:

certainly you won't, but one of your helping hands might, when they do the canyon and give you the beta to post YOUR route... ha!

[sasteve49]

Video of the Sandtrap/water anchor combo. Works great on pothole lips, just need a bigger drybag. Working on a simple closing loop for the bag. Jenny also has made some water anchors for those of us who prefer the challenge of more extreme unbolted canyons.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU32NUZRfRE

[Scott Card]

Video of the Sandtrap/water anchor combo. Works great on pothole lips, just need a bigger drybag. Working on a simple closing loop for the bag. Jenny also has made some water anchors for those of us who prefer the challenge of more extreme unbolted canyons.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU32NUZRfRE
Very cool indeed! Thanks for the video and idea. :2thumbs: