Undercover and Winter Camp

[moab mark]

Went out and did Undercover again last weekend and after seeing Doug's pictures of Winter Camp decided to try it also. The first and only rappel in Winter Camp is slung with some blue and yellow webbing. I was going to remove it when we went back and got our rope but forgot a knife. IMO I would not rappel from this location on the left side LDC. It is a two stage rappel that was ok. I would rig off one of the many anchors in the water course and go right down the main slot. It was a fun short canyon
We then went over and hit Undercover. Sure wish this canyon was closer to Moab. I think it is the best slot canyon in the Moab area. You can see the asphalt in Arches but your at least an hour away.
A few pictures from the White Wash Sand Dunes.

Undercover

[ibenick]

It's not you Mark, it's Bogley. The Bogley image uploader totally blows. Works out much better to upload your pictures elsewhere and then link to them with [IMG] tags. Picasa or Flickr are great.

And back to the subject at hand, nice pics! :2thumbs:

[moab mark]

I've noticed some posts are linked to a slideshow, how are they doing that?

[ibenick]

I've noticed some posts are linked to a slideshow, how are they doing that?

For Picasa:
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?39410-Embed-Picasa-Slideshows-(picasaweb)

For Flickr:
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?39408-Embed-a-Flickr-Slideshow

[moab mark]

Went back and fixed the photos thanks.

[ratagonia]

Went out and did Undercover again last weekend and after seeing Doug's pictures of Winter Camp decided to try it also. The first and only rappel in Winter Camp is slung with some blue and yellow webbing. I was going to remove it when we went back and got our rope but forgot a knife.

Nice Pics Mark.

Wow, that is some obnoxious webbing use, there. Circus coming to town???

Up your way, I understand you can get a pretty good knife cheap, over at the Sinclair station. Right by the counter.

Tom :moses:

[moab mark]

If you like that webbing you should go see the mess at the last drop in Undercover. There are a couple of pictures in the slide show where you can see it running all over the place. If I do Undercover again or if someone is there, they need to try and cut the huge mess out of all the boulders and try to just sling the one big chokestone. I do not think you could get the car tow strap out but could cut it off next to the big rock it is wrapped around. Even slinging the big stone is going to take 50' of webbing. I think it is a no no to place bolts in the Park now so probably not a good idea, but a couple of bolts would sure clean up the mess. The first and second rappel are bolted so it's not like it is a bolt free canyon. Maybe the Emporer could drop by there and bang a couple in.:hail2thechief:

Mark

[Sombeech]

It's not you Mark, it's Bogley. The Bogley image uploader totally blows. Works out much better to upload your pictures elsewhere and then link to them with [IMG] tags. Picasa or Flickr are great.


This is true, but what was the question?

[ibenick]

This is true, but what was the question?

He was having issues with how the uploader doesn't keep the photos in order.

[Iceaxe]

If you like that webbing you should go see the mess at the last drop in Undercover.

This is your typical webbing rat's nest.... the original anchor job crappy.... so instead of fixing it everyone just adds more webbing.... this rappel station just needs someone to spend 10 minutes, rig it correctly and clean up the original mess...

Just because the anchor was not well constructed the first time is not a good reason to slam in bolts..... a crappy anchor is a crappy anchor, bolted or natural....

And I would much prefer to see a rats nest of webbing that can be cleaned up in 10 minutes over a bolt garden that requires a couple hours to clean up.

Bottomline.... if this anchor had of been well thought out and constructed the first time this would not be an issue.

[moab mark]

This is your typical webbing rat's nest.... the original anchor job crappy.... so instead of fixing it everyone just adds more webbing.... this rappel station just needs someone to spend 10 minutes, rig it correctly and clean up the original mess...

Just because the anchor was not well constructed the first time is not a good reason to slam in bolts..... a crappy anchor is a crappy anchor, bolted or natural....

And I would much prefer to see a rats nest of webbing that can be cleaned up in 10 minutes over a bolt garden that requires a couple hours to clean up.

Bottomline.... if this anchor had of been well thought out and constructed the first time this would not be an issue.

IMO by the shape and distance to the chockstone a couple of bolts would be cleaner and safer. People will just keep adding webbing to it due to it being hard to inspect. There is a new piece there since I was there 2 weeks ago. Plus if they were placed on the wall right at the drop the pull would be easier and no rope grooves would appear. If bolts were added why clean the new bolts when you have been rappeling on them all the way down the canyon? At the first rappel you could rappel off of the arch, why leave that bolt? At the second rappel there is ample amounts of material around to create a deadman or whip out the cool sand trap, might as well pull them to. The way I see it is, if every drop has been bolted and the last one has a perfect spot for two bolts verse a mess of webbing seems like a good solution. Even though this route is out of the way I think it will become a trade route for the Moab area. It's fun and is one to hit on the way to and from Moab, or passing by on I 70.. It looked like several groups had been thru in the last couple of weeks. Multiple new tire tracks in the parking lot as well as hiking tracks on the way out. But if were playing by the rules the Park says no new bolts so I guess it is a mute point.

[Iceaxe]

IMO by the shape and distance to the chockstone a couple of bolts would be cleaner and safer.

Come back to me after your have about 2 more years doing canyons and have also added a wider variety to your canyon resume..... and we will talk.... right now I'll probably just be wasting my breath.....

I'm not saying that to be condescending or a jerk.... but you are currently at the stage many canyoneers pass through where bolts seem like the answer.... more experienced canyoneers refer to the stage you are now in as 'the teenage years'.

Every few years we have this same argument when a new group of canyoneers mature into the teenage years.... the famous bolt wars.... you can read pages and page on this in the archives.


There is no reason for a bolt in any of the Lost Springs canyons.

Please don't vandalize canyons that lie above your skill level. You may want to experience them in their undamaged state someday. They will always be there and you have plenty of time. It's not about ego or risk, it's about humility and respect.

[ratagonia]

IMO by the shape and distance to the chockstone a couple of bolts would be cleaner and safer. People will just keep adding webbing to it due to it being hard to inspect. There is a new piece there since I was there 2 weeks ago. Plus if they were placed on the wall right at the drop the pull would be easier and no rope grooves would appear. If bolts were added why clean the new bolts when you have been rappeling on them all the way down the canyon? At the first rappel you could rappel off of the arch, why leave that bolt? At the second rappel there is ample amounts of material around to create a deadman or whip out the cool sand trap, might as well pull them to. The way I see it is, if every drop has been bolted and the last one has a perfect spot for two bolts verse a mess of webbing seems like a good solution. Even though this route is out of the way I think it will become a trade route for the Moab area. It's fun and is one to hit on the way to and from Moab, or passing by on I 70.. It looked like several groups had been thru in the last couple of weeks. Multiple new tire tracks in the parking lot as well as hiking tracks on the way out. But if were playing by the rules the Park says no new bolts so I guess it is a mute point.

Sounds like there are many bolts to be removed, and lots of webbing to be cleaned up. I don't get up that way much, but I do have some penance to do...

Mark - you been around for a while, are kind of savvy. About time for you to be part of the solution, isn't it???

Tom

[moab mark]

Come back to me after your have about 2 more years doing canyons and have also added a wider variety to your canyon resume..... and we will talk.... right now I'll probably just be wasting my breath.....

I'm not saying that to be condescending or a jerk.... but you are currently at the stage many canyoneers pass through where bolts seem like the answer.... more experienced canyoneers refer to the stage you are now in as 'the teenage years'.

Every few years we have this same argument when a new group of canyoneers mature into the teenage years.... the famous bolt wars.... you can read pages and page on this in the archives.


There is no reason for a bolt in any of the Lost Springs canyons.

Please don't vandalize canyons that lie above your skill level. You may want to experience them in their undamaged state someday. They will always be there and you have plenty of time. It's not about ego or risk, it's about humility and respect.

I guess well have to agree to disagree. I have read all of the bolt wars over the last 5 years and I fall on the side of common sense.

.

Mark

[moab mark]

Sounds like there are many bolts to be removed, and lots of webbing to be cleaned up. I don't get up that way much, but I do have some penance to do...

Mark - you been around for a while, are kind of savvy. About time for you to be part of the solution, isn't it???

Tom
Yes I can be part of the solution. I was in a hurry but next time I will clean up the mess at the end of Undercover.

[ratagonia]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I have read all of the bolt wars over the last 5 years and I fall on the side of common sense.

Mark

We all fall on the side of common sense, Mark. "Common Sense" is a propaganda term, but NEVER actually describes a point of view.

Shane and I, however, Mark, are thinking of the children!

Tom

[Iceaxe]

Heck.... if you are going to introduce artificial aids into the canyon why stop at bolts.... why not add ladders and stairs?

Oh wait.... they already did that in Antelope Canyon.

I guess my thought is you have to draw the line somewhere and using natural anchors is a reasonable and clear line to draw.

And before I hear what about webbing yada yada.... webbing is a simple 1 minute deal for someone with more skills following you to clean up....

On a side note I once followed Tom through a canyon after he had ghosted the route and removed all traces of human existence. And I have to say we had a lot of fun trying to duplicate the feat two days later and enjoyed the route in pristine condition..... of course someone probably did the route a week later and claimed a first descent because there was no evidence of previous passage.


and Mark... if you are reading this on your phone you really need to see the pics below..

38946

38947

[moab mark]

We all fall on the side of common sense, Mark. "Common Sense" is a propaganda term, but NEVER actually describes a point of view.

Shane and I, however, Mark, are thinking of the children!

Tom
Glad I found something that you and Shane can agree on.:crazy: No, anti bolt is a propaganda tool. If you don't have the skills to use natural anchors stay home. But if a bolt is needed by this same group of mature canyoneers they have no problem banging one in. The way I look at anchors is whatever is the safest way to get me and my group down the canyon is the way I want to go. If it's natural I use it, if it is a set of bolts I use them also. I used the sand trap the other day and was amazed how well it worked. Whether a bolt has been placed or a bunch of webbing has been pinched around a rock that can never be removed has no bearing on how I look at anchors. There both some form of litter. I look at one thing safety, pretty simple.
Just put a post it note on my computer to not bring up bolts or webbing in future posts.

[Iceaxe]

I look at one thing safety, pretty simple.

It is far easier to assess the safety of anchors you build yourself then to assess drilled anchors you find in-situ. I find the confidence placed in found bolted anchors to be mystifying. Unless perhaps you lack the ability to assess either in which case you are playing a rather scenic game of russian roulette everytime you go out. Careful out there, you only have one big coin to bet - better be a winner everytime. - Stevee B

[moab mark]

Has anyone got any info on any accidents where either the bolts pulled out of the wall or a natural anchor let loose and someone went splat?

[moabmatt]

I placed those bolts in 1997, which predated my adoptance of a (mostly) natural anchor/clean canyoneering ethic. It also predated the canyon's addition to the park, which was basically a ridiculous political move by Rep. Chris Cannon as a follow up to Clinton's designation of the GSENM. Just had to throw that in... Anyway, the reason I didn't place bolts at the last rappel was because the rock along the walls is crap. It's extremely fractured Entrada sandstone. There just wasn't a good place I could find for a pair of trustworthy bolts. The bombproof (looking) logjam high above was, for me, the obvious anchor choice for providing an easy start and well out of the way of floodwater. You could find some decent rock on the ledge itself for bolts, but that would lend itself to an awkward low start and subject the bolts to floodwater.

The "tow strap" is 2" webbing rated to 12,000lbs and has been there since '97. I got a spool of that stuff back in the late 80's from a military surplus sale. Over the years my supply dwindled and that anchor basically finished off the last of that spool. Last time we were in Undercover was '08 and we still used that webbing.

There's a lot of loose rock in that canyon. It seems like every year we go in there there's some new significant rockfall. The big chockstone below the logjam at the last rappel wasn't there in the fall '07 and was there in the spring '08. Also, there used to be two little arches spanning the gap at the first rappel. A flood or just plain old mechanical weathering in late '97/early '98 took out the upstream arch. We now call that remaining arch Widow Arch.

[moab mark]

Did you add the bolt at the first drop, it looks a lot newer? I think the tow strap only has one end now.

[ratagonia]

I placed those bolts in 1997, which predated my adoptance of a (mostly) natural anchor/clean canyoneering ethic. It also predated the canyon's addition to the park, which was basically a ridiculous political move by Rep. Chris Cannon as a follow up to Clinton's designation of the GSENM. Just had to throw that in... Anyway, the reason I didn't place bolts at the last rappel was because the rock along the walls is crap. It's extremely fractured Entrada sandstone. There just wasn't a good place I could find for a pair of trustworthy bolts. The bombproof (looking) logjam high above was, for me, the obvious anchor choice for providing an easy start and well out of the way of floodwater. You could find some decent rock on the ledge itself for bolts, but that would lend itself to an awkward low start and subject the bolts to floodwater.

The "tow strap" is 2" webbing rated to 12,000lbs and has been there since '97. I got a spool of that stuff back in the late 80's from a military surplus sale. Over the years my supply dwindled and that anchor basically finished off the last of that spool. Last time we were in Undercover was '08 and we still used that webbing.

There's a lot of loose rock in that canyon. It seems like every year we go in there there's some new significant rockfall. The big chockstone below the logjam at the last rappel wasn't there in the fall '07 and was there in the spring '08. Also, there used to be two little arches spanning the gap at the first rappel. A flood or just plain old mechanical weathering in late '97/early '98 took out the upstream arch. We now call that remaining arch Widow Arch.

Thanks Matt. What kind of bolts are they, probably?

Tom

[ratagonia]

Has anyone got any info on any accidents where either the bolts pulled out of the wall or a natural anchor let loose and someone went splat?

Canyoneering: very few. There is a tree in the subway that gave way, but they were off-route on the approach, and just made a poor choice of tree to rap from, especially for the 250 lb guy who rapped last.

Climbing: some of each, here and there.

Tom

[moabmatt]

They're 3/8"x3.5" Rawls. I only placed one bolt at the first rappel. Two at the second.