NPS Morning Report 9/21/10 Subway no jumping

[trackrunner]

Bo would you say the number one reason you are called out is injuries from jumping?

http://www.nps.gov/applications/morningreport/

Zion National Park (UT)
Injured Hiker Short-Hauled Out Of Subway Route

On Saturday, September 19th, a 20-year-old hiker from Boise sustained an unstable ankle injury when she jumped eight to ten feet off an obstacle along the Subway Route. Ranger/medic Ray O

[DSTRBD]

I was in the Subway again last Sunday (the 12th) I assume the area the accident happened was at keyhole falls, it has filled in full of sand so the water is not even ankle deep under there. It does look pretty inviting as a short little jump onto sand. I could see how someone would have just assumed it safe to jump.

[jman]

or it is at the final rappel area... Instead of rappelling down, there are some spots where downclimbing could turn into a 6-8ft drop (heading towards the final area).

awwwww.........ankle injuries are horrible.

[trackrunner]

or it is at the final rappel area

not sure where. from the original description it could be one of three drops with a bolt(s): bowling ball alley, keyhole falls, final drop. If I recall the first drop is not bolted.

[John Peterson]

First drop in Subway has a pinch point w/ sling and rap ring for rappel, no bolts though. Bowling ball water is usually quite deep, that'd be bad luck to bottom out there. Could have been anywhere to include some of the random potholes though.

Reminds me of the group of 12 in Orderville last Saturday (9/11) - someone in the group asks someone else why they are all downclimbing while my group of 4 was setting a rope. One girl answers, and I shit you negative, "They aren't as skilled as we are so they have to rappel." It was the same group that did Birch on Friday (9/10). They seemed overall nice but I was embarrassed for her.

[trackrunner]

Bowling ball water is usually quite deep, that'd be bad luck to bottom out there.

yes, if I recall here use to be a big boulder at the base of that rappel, only a few feet below the water during dry periods. has it washed out now? It has been a while since I last did the subway

[Aethyrial]

On my first canyoneering trip, before even starting the approach, Mike (mmac) warned me about jumping. "If you twist your ankle, chances are good you are at least spending the night."

[deathtointernet]

I'm also going to have go with Keyhole Falls... with the recent rearrangement of the canyon (filling everything with sand), the bottom of Keyhole is flat and probably pretty tempting to jump. I was through there earlier this month, and the sand isn't entirely stable right now. Some of it is hard-packed and some it you can sink a good foot deep into. The bottom of the drop to the bowling ball corridor is shallow and used to have some obstacles underwater, but now seems to be quite flat, but I don't see it as likely because you still can't see what you're getting into, unlike Keyhole which looks oh-so-possible. But who knows. Right now you could break an ankle just walking the bottom of the canyon if you step into the hidden holes in the sand. I sure wouldn't want to tempt fate even further by jumping off something.

[Scott Card]

I pretty well have a no jump rule. End of story.

[trackrunner]

I pretty well have a no jump rule. End of story.

and a good rule to have

[flatiron]

Interesting. I saw a canyoneering show this spring in Boulder presented by Charley Oliver @ ACA, promoting new Ouray canyons and featuring others throughout west. Mostly Class C or some kind of water. The DVD show had numerous shots of people cannon balling into pools of water, very much highlighting and seemingly promoting it a one of the features of canyoneering. I really haven't done class c stuff, maybe that is the norm, but I was quite taken aback. For you guys who do or have done class c, is that part of the deal?? Maybe it is I guess, especially if a scout has checked out the pool, but still?? I told me girlfriend who is relatively new and cautious about canyoneering that we/I do not jump into pools or anything else. I had a friend break a foot in Pine Creek a few years ago, not from jumping but just a misstep, and we tried an ill fated self rescue b4 calling in the pros. Don't want to do that again. So no- jumping is not part of my resume or in any group I'm in.

Alan

[trackrunner]

The DVD show had numerous shots of people cannon balling into pools of water, very much highlighting and seemingly promoting it a one of the features of canyoneering. I really haven't done class c stuff, maybe that is the norm, but I was quite taken aback. For you guys who do or have done class c, is that part of the deal?? Maybe it is I guess, especially if a scout has checked out the pool, but still??

I've done a class C that normally has jumps and steep water slides. We still always sent a person down first on rappel to confirm the depth, make sure there were no obstacles, or to alert other members where hazards may be to avoid. This was a day after another group did the same canyon. We still did it because it was good practice and something could have changed.

The last rappel is less than 120 ft. next to a talus slope, obviously not a jump. After being the first one down I used hand signals to indicate off rope and then yelled above the sound of the water fall "DON'T JUMP" everyone laughed.

[FONT=Verdana]This summer I went to a swimming hole with a cliff jump, which I

[deathtointernet]

I pretty well have a no jump rule. End of story.

Agreed. That's why it can be hard to figure out where something like this went wrong... hard to get into the minds of someone who thinks jumping is a good idea. I suppose it could've happened in the bowling ball corridor if they thought the water was deep, because you can't see the bottom. Of course that doesn't mean it's deep, or shallow, it just means you can't see the bottom. It has that first drop and then the second into the corridor itself, and I could definitely see someone dropping down the first part and saying to themselves 'looks like a nice plunge!' It's about three/three-and-a-half feet deep right now. Problem with the Subway is that it's *so close* to being just a watery hike, and it's in all the hiking guidebooks, so you just don't know who will end up in there. Heck, the first time I ever did it I ran into a guy literally fleeing in terror right before dropping into the canyon. Probably the best decision of his life!

[ratagonia]

I asked at the desk where the accident occurred, and Brad sent me this email yesterday:

Hey Tom, I got a hold of a few of the rangers that went on the Left Fork SAR last week. They said that the person jumped at Keyhole falls and got injured there. She was short hauled out by helicopter from down canyon below the last rappel.

Bradley J. Cooke
Backcountry Division
Zion National Park
Springdale, UT 84767
435-772-0170

[DSTRBD]

I asked at the desk where the accident occurred, and Brad sent me this email yesterday:

Hey Tom, I got a hold of a few of the rangers that went on the Left Fork SAR last week. They said that the person jumped at Keyhole falls and got injured there. She was short hauled out by helicopter from down canyon below the last rappel.


Hmmm, just as I had suspected... It looks awful inviting to jump there right now.

How was Imlay Tom? Did the Colorado boys hold up well? :lol8:

[ratagonia]

Hmmm, just as I had suspected... It looks awful inviting to jump there right now.

How was Imlay Tom? Did the Colorado boys hold up well? :lol8:

A good time had by all. Imlay always delivers. T :moses:

[Ryebrye]

Bo would you say the number one reason you are called out is injuries from jumping?

http://www.nps.gov/applications/morningreport/

Zion National Park (UT)
Injured Hiker Short-Hauled Out Of Subway Route

On Saturday, September 19th, a 20-year-old hiker from Boise sustained an unstable ankle injury when she jumped eight to ten feet off an obstacle along the Subway Route. Ranger/medic Ray O’Neil and Dan Hovanec hiked in six miles, stabilized her injury, and spent the night with the injured hiker. Rangers Kelsey Taylor and Derrick Fassbender hiked in additional equipment and escorted the rest of the hiking group out in the dark that evening. On Sunday, Grand Canyon’s helicopter and flight crew short-hauled the woman out of the Subway Route to a waiting ambulance. In the area where the incident occurred, a bolted anchor is available to rappel or hand-line down. Despite discouraging the practice, jumping to negotiate obstacles continues to be a frequent cause of injury while canyoneering in Zion.

A wise man once taught me a key rule:

IF you are gonna be dumb, you've gotta be tough

If you jump down a drop and hurt your ankle (being dumb), you need to man up and somehow find a way to get out on your own power or with group assistance (be tough).

If you hurt your ankle and need a chopper to get out, you might want to reconsider your backcountry preparedness.

I was with a guy who had a very unlucky experience in the Subway when it was in high water - he went over one of the little water slide features and had his leg angled at just the right angle to catch a ledge or something under the water and ended up breaking his left leg. So arguably, what we did on the little water slides was dumb (as evidenced by his breaking his leg).

It made the hike out take a bit longer and he had a really hard time using the clutch on the drive home that night. We never even thought about calling for SAR. Had he not been able to walk on his own... we were prepared to assist him the whole way out and would have carried his ass out the entire exit.

[ratagonia]

A wise man once taught me a key rule:

IF you are gonna be dumb, you've gotta be tough

If you jump down a drop and hurt your ankle (being dumb), you need to man up and somehow find a way to get out on your own power or with group assistance (be tough).

If you hurt your ankle and need a chopper to get out, you might want to reconsider your backcountry preparedness.

I was with a guy who had a very unlucky experience in the Subway when it was in high water - he went over one of the little water slide features and had his leg angled at just the right angle to catch a ledge or something under the water and ended up breaking his left leg. So arguably, what we did on the little water slides was dumb (as evidenced by his breaking his leg).

It made the hike out take a bit longer and he had a really hard time using the clutch on the drive home that night. We never even thought about calling for SAR. Had he not been able to walk on his own... we were prepared to assist him the whole way out and would have carried his ass out the entire exit.

I think you will find, with some reflection, that not doing dumbass things in the first place is a better, long-term strategy.

T as :moses:

[stefan]

I think you will find, with some reflection, that not doing dumbass things in the first place is a better, long-term strategy.

T as :moses:
:haha:

[oldno7]

I think you will find, with some reflection, that not doing dumbass things in the first place is a better, long-term strategy.

T as :moses:

hmmm...

[Cirrus2000]

I think you will find, with some reflection, that not doing dumbass things in the first place is a better, long-term strategy.

T as :moses:
http://www.stumbleuponyang.org/demotivational-posters/demotivational-poster-overconfidence.jpg

[jman]

http://www.stumbleuponyang.org/demotivational-posters/demotivational-poster-overconfidence.jpg

Yup that's a classic one.

[ratagonia]

If you jump down a drop and hurt your ankle (being dumb), you need to man up and somehow find a way to get out on your own power or with group assistance (be tough).

If you hurt your ankle and need a chopper to get out, you might want to reconsider your backcountry preparedness.

I was with a guy who had a very unlucky experience in the Subway when it was in high water - he went over one of the little water slide features and had his leg angled at just the right angle to catch a ledge or something under the water and ended up breaking his left leg. So arguably, what we did on the little water slides was dumb (as evidenced by his breaking his leg).

It made the hike out take a bit longer and he had a really hard time using the clutch on the drive home that night. We never even thought about calling for SAR. Had he not been able to walk on his own... we were prepared to assist him the whole way out and would have carried his ass out the entire exit.

Macho posturing aside, it helps to have a good understanding of the medicine involved in order to make a wise decision here. The question is whether self-evacuation will result in long-term injury and disability, and can those effects be mitigated by effective first aid? If you "man-up" and walk out on it, and the result is a permanent injury, then you did not make the wise choice. But, if you sprain your ankle and can successfully splint and wrap it and walk out with no ill effects other than pain, then the helicopter ride and spending 10K of the public's money is an immoral choice. Of course, having the first aid/medical training to make those decisions wisely must take place before the incident.

A friend of ours wrecked his knee in a canyon, was able to get out (because there was not much choice, this not being Zion and being in a very technical canyon, and because Mr. Corbin was there), waited a day on the Beach to see if it would get better (no), then drove out and flew home (East Coast) before scheduling an appointment with his doctor. Threw a clot the next day and nearly died - shoulda seen a doc before flying home. Bad choice!

Tom

[Bubbles]

Tom is right. It's one thing to suck it up for a headache, laceration, dislocation, mild sprain, etc. A fracture can be quite serious, particularly with bones, nerve endings, blood vessels, etc down there. Permanent damage is a very real possibility, and its not worth it for a relatively simple, at-hand rescue like The Subway IF the injury is serious enough to warrant it. Err on the side of caution.

Anyone who spends significant time in the backcountry should strongly consider getting medical training.

[jman]

Anyone who spends significant time in the backcountry should strongly consider getting medical training.

Strongly agree with this. When I did BLM firefighting in St George a few years ago, I was also the medic (EMT-I) for our squad and then on most major fires. I carried a complex but light 5lb medical supply kit that had every thing that helped some grim situations, where a basic firstaid kit wouldn't cut it.

Epinephrine pens, learning the new CPR method, nitro (for heart attacks), charcoal (for poisoning-IE, eating really spoiled food, took too many pills, eat poisonous berries, etc.) and even narcan (to take away the effects of a OD), even a c-spine would make you the most important/helpful person in the group. Those would probably be unneeded by a lot of folks...but you just don't know when you might need it) you, yourself, your group, another group, bystanders, etc.

And those were just some of the meds and supplies it would contain. So helpful...

[mmac]

Legality and liability aside, I completely agree with jman. (most people aren't allowed to carry/administer Epi, Narcan, or Nitro)

The right training and a good medkit can save your ass!

[jman]

(most people aren't allowed to carry/administer Epi, Narcan, or Nitro)

The right training and a good medkit can save your ass!

Sorry, that's what I was implying - that people SHOULD get advanced medical training if they can. Even EMT if they can afford it and have the spare time (through schooling it was only $100 for the tuition for the class...8 credits too!)

Not trying to say that people should blackmarket nitro and epi pens. haha.

[Bubbles]

Legality and liability aside, I completely agree with jman. (most people aren't allowed to carry/administer Epi, Narcan, or Nitro)

Lets not forget Diamox! :lol8:

[mmac]

Haha, I meant no offense :)

Just wanted to be clear that some of the stuff you were talking about should only be attempted with proper training and or a prescription.

You scored on your EMT class! Mine cost like $800 and my WFR was another $450 :cry1:

I'm a strong believer in being prepared. I carry a pretty big medkit through the canyons, and thank god I've never actually needed to use it. It's just reassuring to have it available.

[Cirrus2000]

I'm a strong believer in being prepared. I carry a pretty big medkit through the canyons, and thank god I've never actually needed to use it. It's just reassuring to have it available.

Reassuring for your partners, too! :2thumbs:

[Ryebrye]

Macho posturing aside, it helps to have a good understanding of the medicine involved in order to make a wise decision here. The question is whether self-evacuation will result in long-term injury and disability, and can those effects be mitigated by effective first aid? If you "man-up" and walk out on it, and the result is a permanent injury, then you did not make the wise choice. But, if you sprain your ankle and can successfully splint and wrap it and walk out with no ill effects other than pain, then the helicopter ride and spending 10K of the public's money is an immoral choice. Of course, having the first aid/medical training to make those decisions wisely must take place before the incident.

A friend of ours wrecked his knee in a canyon, was able to get out (because there was not much choice, this not being Zion and being in a very technical canyon, and because Mr. Corbin was there), waited a day on the Beach to see if it would get better (no), then drove out and flew home (East Coast) before scheduling an appointment with his doctor. Threw a clot the next day and nearly died - shoulda seen a doc before flying home. Bad choice!

Tom

Yeah, I agree with this point.

I'm also a bit impatient. Sure, Zion SAR is fast - but we're still talking about waiting around for some time in the order of at least a few hours... Sure, it would suck to walk around or have people carry you out of the canyon, but how much worse would it suck to spend a few hours just sitting in a spot of the Subway waiting for a chopper? I bet you could get out of the canyon faster if you did it on your own than waiting for a chopper... (in this specific case - not in all cases, of course)

The point about WFR and EMT training are good... WFR is on my list of things to do someday, but being selfish I think I'd prefer someone else in my group get the training! ;) (Kind of like how avalanche poles and a shovel always make a great christmas gift for your backcountry skiing buddies)

[ratagonia]

Yeah, I agree with this point.

I'm also a bit impatient. Sure, Zion SAR is fast - but we're still talking about waiting around for some time in the order of at least a few hours... Sure, it would suck to walk around or have people carry you out of the canyon, but how much worse would it suck to spend a few hours just sitting in a spot of the Subway waiting for a chopper? I bet you could get out of the canyon faster if you did it on your own than waiting for a chopper... (in this specific case - not in all cases, of course)

The point about WFR and EMT training are good... WFR is on my list of things to do someday, but being selfish I think I'd prefer someone else in my group get the training! ;) (Kind of like how avalanche poles and a shovel always make a great christmas gift for your backcountry skiing buddies)

From accident to being out at the end of the Subway is generally 24 hours. So, yeah, hobbling out yourself is going to be considerably faster.

I've heard of several groups that, after sitting around for a few hours, decided it was a good idea to try hobbling out rather than wait EVEN LONGER!

They use the chopper there in the Subway because doing a litter carry out from the end of the Subway would take 12 people x 24 hours (or so). Lotta rough terrain there.

Tom

[mmac]

The point about WFR and EMT training are good... WFR is on my list of things to do someday, but being selfish I think I'd prefer someone else in my group get the training! ;) (Kind of like how avalanche poles and a shovel always make a great christmas gift for your backcountry skiing buddies)

I would rather have everyone in my party be WFA certified (Wilderness First Aid - takes less than a day for the training, and is basically first aid with some extra wilderness considerations thrown in for good measure). In the "what-if" scenario where you lose your only medically trained person to an injury, it could suck just as much as not having anyone with training along at all...

Spread out your proverbial eggs, think about your partner's well-being (just slightly after your own) and go get some training! :haha:

[ibenick]

I would rather have everyone in my party be WFA certified (Wilderness First Aid - takes less than a day for the training, and is basically first aid with some extra wilderness considerations thrown in for good measure). In the "what-if" scenario where you lose your only medically trained person to an injury, it could suck just as much as not having anyone with training along at all...

Spread out your proverbial eggs, think about your partner's well-being (just slightly after your own) and go get some training! :haha:

Hey Mike. That WFA certification sounds like a pretty worthwhile thing to do. I looked around and all I found up here in SLC was a 3-day course for $175. Any idea where I'd find the day or less version?

This is what I found:
http://www.wmutah.org/wfacourses.html

[mmac]

Most WFA classes include CPR/AED, First Aid, and some Wilderness training (common injuries/illnesses, timeline considerations, environmental issues, evacuation, etc).

If you've already got CPR and or First Aid you could probably talk to the instructor and just take the wilderness part (which is what I did to refresh an expired cert a while back), or find a more specialized course. If you need, or are interested in all of the training, 2-3 days doesn't really seem out of the realm to me. They run a lot of mock-scenarios which are great confidence builders and lend a sense of practicality to the training. For me, these always pushed the points home better than just reading through the material, and I would consider them one of the most valuable parts of the course.

The University in Flagstaff offers courses that are open to the public (no tuition), and I'd assume that most do a similar sort of thing. I'm currently re-certifying my WFR in a night class twice a week. The class goes for another 3 weeks, and I've been in it for about 3 so far.

NOLS (http://www.nols.edu/wmi/) is probably the best place to look for classes based on curriculum and acceptance of the certification by other organizations. If you don't care about that, just look for something locally - if you put together a group of people who are interested, they'll probably work around your schedule ;)