Lets talk about "keepers" and how to conquer them.

[DSTRBD]

I have always been the guy who thinks outside the box, I LOVE the problem solving aspect to anything I do. While spending countless hours here Lurking/reading I came across the Neon "keeper" TR, there was a very good discussion going on about escapes from said pothole and potential ways to conquer it in "keeper" mode (although none of them worked that trip). So we have all the standard stuff to use to escape (pack toss, partner assist, potshots, hooker, etc) Is there anything anyone else uses to help them? If we use the neon keeper as an jumping off point, has anyone got out of it using and unconventional method unlike the ones I mentioned above? I have been thinking about a couple other things that might help in areas just like the Neon keeper where there is a deep bottom or smooth walls where there is no way a hooker will find anything to catch on.

Anyone have any input?

[CarpeyBiggs]

have you read this? interesting insights to the keeper in neon, which is a very uncommon type of pothole. there is a small window where it can be very very hard to escape. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/50609

however, we've used all of those methods you mentioned to escape keepers. i'd say most frequent we use potshots and partner assists. seems nearly every pothole can surrender to multiple potshots if they are used/thrown with skill.

however, the keeper in neon is a different animal, because it will not surrender to most of these techniques, unless someone is willing to hold their breath and go under water...

[stefan]

here is a report/discussion of a may 08 descent by mark rosen and co (warning spoiler alert)

Neon Keeper Descended (http://www.math.utah.edu/%7Esfolias/canyontales/tale/?i=neonkeeper)

[oval]

I personally always bring a drill and a hammer for situations where I don't know what to expect. I've never used them since I've never encountered such a situation, but I wouldn't hesitate to if my life depended on it and no "clean" methods worked. Obviously this sort of thing is the end of the line/last resort, but I think it's worth bringing up.

[DSTRBD]

I have just read that, lots of good info and another reason why I have been thinking about other tools. There are 3 things I have been thinking would be useful in a unconventional keeper, Please pardon my ignorance if these are common or not realistic....like I said... Outside the box...

1. Grappling hook. I know this has been discussed/used before But im thinking a real small hook with a small pully attached.

So you have a small heavy duty Grappling hook (http://stylecrave.com/2009-01-06/wicked-pocket-grappling-hooks-micro-version-included/) That has a small (6 to 8mm) sized pulley on it, already ran through the pulley is a small lightweight piece of pull cord, Once its caught you can pull a stronger cord through the pulley and use it to assist you out to a beached whale or whatever. The idea here was that with a small piece of heavy duty twine you could throw it a long way without the heavy rope, then pull in a heavier rope if needed. This might work in a spot where a pot shot wont hold.

2. Mono pole for deep pools.

The idea here is this:
You have a deep pothole (Neon) That is to deep for conventional partner assist. IF you had a collapsible "tent style" pole with say 18 inch sections to adjust for depth of the pothole, you have a sling attached to the top where you could get a foot in, you could stick one end (with a rubber foot on it) down to the bottom of the keeper and with a mild (even floating) partner assist you could step up to a beached whale and even use the same pole in a horizontal manner to push yourself even further up into the area where you beached.

3. Lets call this a "Catcher stick"

The idea here is this:
You have a strong tent pole style collapsible "stick" with rubber boots on each end (think the bottom of a cane) You eyeball the width of the canyon needing "caught" you attach a rope to the center of the stick and throw it up into the slot, you gently pull until it gets caught (wedges sideways) itself into the slot and enables you to pull yourself up. This would be one you could use where the walls are slick enough you cannot find a spot for the hooker to catch.

Ok Let me have it.....:mrgreen::mrgreen:

[CarpeyBiggs]

happy hooker is similar to what you mention. pretty sure tom doesn't even sell it anymore because potshots are typically much more effective. pully? what do you need the pully for? if you can get a rope in place, using ascending gear is easy. maybe i'm missing something here about what kind of haul system you are thinking of making.

the grappling hook won't help, certainly on the neon keeper, and the scary keepers i know of. nothing to hook it on to that i can think of. plus, it's heavy and hard to carry. sounds miserable.

mono pole idea might work, but most serious keeper potholes are too deep i would think. plus, stabilizing it seems like a nightmare, especially if the edge of the pothole is gently sloping away from the lip, like most keepers are. also, the scariest potholes are well over 12 feet deep... some as much as 25 to 30.

the catcher stick - not sure i really follow. not sure i know of any collapsible poles that would be strong enough to support a humans weight when it is loaded horizontally instead of vertically. getting it to "catch" sounds pretty tough to me.

[CarpeyBiggs]

I personally always bring a drill and a hammer for situations where I don't know what to expect. I've never used them since I've never encountered such a situation, but I wouldn't hesitate to if my life depended on it and no "clean" methods worked. Obviously this sort of thing is the end of the line/last resort, but I think it's worth bringing up.

not sure it would help you in a true swimming keeper. ever tried to drill while floating? even with a partner trying to push against you. it's just shy of impossible. what's more, the keeper in neon is overhanging at the lip, if i remember correctly (though i've never seen it as a keeper, always have swam over the top of it...)

[stefan]

37037

[DSTRBD]

happy hooker is similar to what you mention. pretty sure tom doesn't even sell it anymore because potshots are typically much more effective. pully? what do you need the pully for? I'm probably over thinking this, the idea was that it is pretty small (did you click the link) so it would catch on smaller lips or eben almost nothing, be very lightweight etc. I was picturing swimming in a keeper needing to throw a potshot the "40" feet people were saying neon needs for a potshot,( I know throw it before your in the water :D ) So with a small (palm sized) grappling hook you could attach a very small (1 to 2 MM) through the pulley so you would have less weight to throw, Then use the pulley to attach a stronger line to for the actual "work" :shrug: if you can get a rope in place, using ascending gear is easy. maybe i'm missing something here about what kind of haul system you are thinking of making.

the grappling hook won't help, certainly on the neon keeper, and the scary keepers i know of. nothing to hook it on to that i can think of. plus, it's heavy and hard to carry. sounds miserable.See above, small sharp hook.

mono pole idea might work, but most serious keeper potholes are too deep i would think IF it were in sections you could carry any length you "might" need for the right depth.. plus, stabilizing it seems like a nightmare, especially if the edge of the pothole is gently sloping away from the lip, like most keepers are. Yes, agreed the stabilization would be the hard part, But if you don't get greedy and try to get to far out of the water there is not much to stabilize until you out of the water. I don't really see using this to completely get out of the water , Maybe just for a good solid push to beach where there is no "bottom". also, the scariest potholes are well over 12 feet deep... some as much as 25 to 30.

the catcher stick - not sure i really follow. not sure i know of any collapsible poles that would be strong enough to support a humans weight when it is loaded horizontally instead of vertically. getting it to "catch" sounds pretty tough to me. I have actually beta tested this one and it works quite well, If the stick is slightly wider than the canyon (think adjustable length) and the rope is tied in the middle of the "stick" it forces the ends of the "stick" to catch the walls as you pull it back to you using the rubber ends

Clear as mud?

:crazy: :mrgreen:

[DSTRBD]

37037

Awesome! Thanks...that is a sexy looking pothole right there!! :crazy: :haha: :lol8:

Does everyone agree that this is in "Keeper" mode?

[CarpeyBiggs]

ha. i missed the photo of the hook. but seeing it, i'm virtually certain it will be of zero help. i just don't see it hooking on anything. sorry. a grappling hook will not catch sand. and a lip or webbing? nothing to catch on in most places i'm thinking of. in terms of throwing distance on this particular pothole, i'm pretty sure no one has ever successfully used potshots to defeat the neon pothole. the area is flat behind it for 100 yards or so, and just dry sand. it can't support the weight and potshots would just pull out...

i still think stabilizing a pole to push on would be extremely difficult, especially on sloping floors, and supporting a human on a single pole seems unlikely. maybe it would help to see what you mean.

catcher stick sounds interesting, i'd have to see one i guess. having a hard time visualizing it in a real live canyon situation. what kind of pole is it?

[CarpeyBiggs]

yes, that is keeper mode.

[DSTRBD]

See this is an "Ideal" area for the Stick idea no?
Black is the stick
Red is the rope.

[CarpeyBiggs]

interesting idea. any actual photos of the pole? weight, etc?

however, it may work on this pothole because of the geometry. it may be a very specialized solution.

[DSTRBD]

catcher stick sounds interesting, i'd have to see one i guess. having a hard time visualizing it in a real live canyon situation. what kind of pole is it?

I have just been using a tent pole (fiberglass) In "tests", Obviously something stronger is needed for body weight, the beta test works well though, In a slot similar to the one (neon) Stephen posted it catches almost everytime.

[DSTRBD]

interesting idea. it may be a very specialized solution. Agreed 200% I am just throwing out ideas for "canyoneering ammo". Ill get a picture and video for you this weekend.

[Brian in SLC]

ever tried to drill while floating? even with a partner trying to push against you. it's just shy of impossible.

Nah, its pretty reasonable. With enough motivation, could be done solo too.

Remember, with a pointy, shallow bat hook, you don't need much of a hole...

Dare I mention the g-pick? Nah.

That's a heck of a keeper! Neat that folks have kinda figured a way past it without resorting to thuggery.

Brian in SLC
(who's resorted to thuggery on a number of occasions...heavy sigh...)

[CarpeyBiggs]

DSTRB - i am fairly confident, though it's just my gut, that any form of aluminum tent pole would not be able to support the weight to get someone out of that keeper. not sure what gauge of aluminum would be needed, but tent poles would break, or flex and pull out, i'd guess.

BDC - if you only have to drill one or two holes, it might not be unbearable. i'd love to see someone pick out of the big holes. it would take all day. especially if you did multiple keepers. but as you well know, there aren't too many keepers i've heard of being encountered that can not be solved by non-thuggish means. i know it was done commonly on the zion canyons back in the day, but other techniques are much easier now. i don't know of any potholes that can't be defeated by natural means, myself. unless, of course, people haven't learned those techniques.

but if we focus on the neon keeper, pecking it still wouldn't work. it's a severely overhanging lip.

i'd hate to be the guy that has to peck out of this one to get across...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2608/4015237150_2a49dd5237_z.jpg?zz=1

[stefan]

37039
image from a video by ira lewis

[CarpeyBiggs]

ha. sorry, my reading comprehension is sub-par tonight. you already mentioned the strength thing...

i am curious what strength would be needed. i know that in the past people have used catcher sticks made out of 2x4s. if you could do a lightweight pole that is still strong, i think it could work in some situations.

interesting indeed.

[DSTRBD]

i'd hate to be the guy that has to peck out of this one to get across...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2608/4015237150_2a49dd5237_z.jpg?zz=1
WOW! That is truly a great shot!.. Damn.. thats way more than a great shot! Who took this? You? Amazing photo!! :hail2thechief:

[stefan]

WOW! That is truly a great shot!.. Damn.. thats way more than a great shot! Who took this? You? Amazing photo!! :hail2thechief:

indeed. one of his best IMO

[ibenick]

indeed. one of his best IMO

Yeah. Looking at that photo makes me feel like double rainbow guy might feel at the sight of a quadruple rainbow. Whoaaaa... Stunning. :hail2thechief:

[ibenick]

Just curious, how often is this keeper in Neon a problem? Only during drought conditions or is it sporadic? And when the pool is full it's pretty much nothing to get out of it? Sorry to derail your conversation with my n00b questions, just curious.

[DSTRBD]

37039
image from a video by ira lewis

OMG...searches for facepalm icon...:facepalm: Really! damn.....

I have just learned three things here...

1. The stick thing is not a bad idea, I was just thinking mobile.

2.The Neon keeper is WAAAY bigger than it looked in pictures until now (thats a big stick!)

3. I have one more idea that will work in this situation...I think...that I thought would not work prior to seeing how wide the canyon really is.

[DSTRBD]

Yeah. Looking at that photo makes me feel like double rainbow guy might feel at the sight of a quadruple rainbow. Whoaaaa... Stunning. :hail2thechief:

OMG.... Cranberry and vodka out my nose! Thanks!!

What does it mean??:lol8:

[trackrunner]

Just curious, how often is this keeper in Neon a problem? Only during drought conditions or is it sporadic? And when the pool is full it's pretty much nothing to get out of it? Sorry to derail your conversation with my n00b questions, just curious.

from what I've read it varies. it can be full where you swim right over it, never a problem. sometimes there is a lot of water, but still under the lip, but you can get an assist to reach the lip and over. Sometimes it could be bone dry where you are your partners create a human pyramid to send one person out to help everyone else get out. Or the same thing could be done when your partners can touch the bottom with a little water in it. Sometimes you cant touch the bottom and the lip is too high.

I talked to one of the members of a group that got turned back in Neon. He thought they could make it with a several more tries. But one member had become hypothermic so they retreated. One tool to remember is water protection to tread water long enough to concur.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

to answer the original question of thinking outside the box. never tried it, never heard of results from doing it. one idea that I heard was get a softball and drill hole big enough for the rope to fit through but small enough a knot will not pass back through. throw the softball way past the slopping lip and hope it catches on something. maybe possible to make a softball octopus.

also heard of pack raft. get everyone packs together with flotation. tie together the packs stand on pack raft to get over the lip. may require a swimmer to stablelize.

[CarpeyBiggs]

ha. thanks for the kind words. though taking the photo is the easy part. being there was a gift, not because of anything i did on my own, for sure. also, i would likely never go into that place without the group that essentially took me through it. it's uh... the second biggest pothole i've ever gone through. a real monster. it's been known to damage a few groups in the past. the only scarier one i've seen can be cheated though with an easy potshot and tyrolean, and some creative thinking.

this is a video that shows some of the pothole exiting techniques, and some REALLY big keepers, albeit the scenes are short and quick. it's a project i never finished because of... well, because i never finish anything... maybe i should do that sometime.


http://vimeo.com/7120756

[DSTRBD]

Wow...Thats what i'm taking about! Great video, fantastic looking canyon! well done. :hail2thechief: Is there a TR on that somewhere?:cool2:

[qedcook]

Anyone ever used a kickboard? It helps lift your partner out of the water. And when there's no water it's nice to have a padded layer doing a shoulder stand.

[Brian in SLC]

BDC - if you only have to drill one or two holes, it might not be unbearable. i'd love to see someone pick out of the big holes. it would take all day. especially if you did multiple keepers.

Nah, for an experienced sandstone aid climber, it really doesn't take that long. I think I've done 7 in a day fairly quickly. A couple were multiples.

I can drill fairly fast (4" deep hole in some sandstones in 20 minutes give or take?). Given that you only need a deep enough hole to fit a hook...

GREAT photo!

Neon keeper: I'd start to the right if I had to drill out....three holes maybe?

Only if I had to though...

Cheers!

-Brian in SLC

[Brian in SLC]

Anyone ever used a kickboard? It helps lift your partner out of the water. And when there's no water it's nice to have a padded layer doing a shoulder stand.

Pack with floatation in it works as well as anything. And, it not extra gear. If you need padding, most packs also have a removable foam pad that can work too. Also something you'll have with you.

As long as your partner isn't wearing metal cleats (tricouni nails? Ha ha) in their shoes, I've never felt the need for any padding on a partner assist, shoulder stand, etc. Of course, some of us think we're more durable (or have a higher tolerance for damage) too...

I've never found that much lift from any floatation in a pothole that would give enough boost to do much of anything compared to just a lunge from a doggy paddle swim or some such.

[Scott Card]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2608/4015237150_2a49dd5237_z.jpg?zz=1 That is one of my top 2 or 3 favorite canyoneering photos of all time.

[Don]

That is one of my top 2 or 3 favorite canyoneering photos of all time.

+1
I love this shot.

[ratagonia]

I personally always bring a drill and a hammer for situations where I don't know what to expect. I've never used them since I've never encountered such a situation, but I wouldn't hesitate to if my life depended on it and no "clean" methods worked. Obviously this sort of thing is the end of the line/last resort, but I think it's worth bringing up.

That would be a drill holder (Petzl Pecker), a 3/8" drill bit, a hammer, and two BD Talon hooks, at least one with an etrier attached - to be more specific. The "Nuclear Option". "Courage in your rucksack", as the climbers used to say. Good to have along in Imlay or Heaps, with unknown water conditions.

(To be more specific)

Tom

[ratagonia]

not sure it would help you in a true swimming keeper. ever tried to drill while floating? even with a partner trying to push against you. it's just shy of impossible. what's more, the keeper in neon is overhanging at the lip, if i remember correctly (though i've never seen it as a keeper, always have swam over the top of it...)

Has been done. One whack, swim back to it, get another whack, etc. Better with a partner, who can swim against you, holding you to the wall. Overhanging might require setting an actual bolt in the hole, though maybe not setting it all the way. Floats attached to each item decreases the penalty for dropping any one item. Tales of diving for the hooks in a skanky pothole in Imlay come to mind.

Tom

[guaps]

First of all, CarpeyBiggs, UNREAL photo! Whether or not you have heard of canyoneering, that photo just pulls you in. Even more so if you can appreciate the skills being displayed. Well done!


I have just been using a tent pole (fiberglass) In "tests", Obviously something stronger is needed for body weight, the beta test works well though, In a slot similar to the one (neon) Stephen posted it catches almost everytime.

What about a trekking pole? They are light weight, pretty strong (unless fully extended), and they are adjustable length for different uses.

[Brian in SLC]

Floats attached to each item decreases the penalty for dropping any one item. Tales of diving for the hooks in a skanky pothole in Imlay come to mind.

Nah, Rokpec has a wrist loop. Hammer has a shoulder sling and cord. Hooks should be attached to your person (sling or daisy).

[ratagonia]

See this is an "Ideal" area for the Stick idea no?
Black is the stick
Red is the rope.

The rope goes close to one end, if you can get it there. So this can work ... for short sticks. As the stick gets longer, the stick need to be fatter and fatter. Your 10' Neon stick would need to be 1-1/2" thin wall aluminum, roughly 10 lbs. The 1/2" tent pole on the Happy Hooker is the largest high-strength pole size Easton makes, and notice how flexxy it is.

There is rarely anything to hook on the other side of the pool. This is why the Happy Hooker (still made) is so unsuccessful. My other thought with the HH is you could always chuck it like a spear, if you were going for a debris pile and looking to get the hook to catch on something. In fact, as a 5 foot pole (rather than 11 foot) maybe this would work better than the current HH... hmmmmmmm.

As a bracing pole, I have experimented with the HH 1/2" pole. There are a few places where it can be useful, to get a foot or two of extra reach. But once you put close to full body weight on it, it flexes and fails to support. Again, a thicker pole would be stiffer, but would weight a lot more.

Just to clarify, if seeking new tools, the designer would look for tools that are useful in a range of circumstances. There are often tools that can be devised for a single, known problem, but would not really work for other problems. So, maybe a stout, 5 foot black walnut 1-1/2" dowel would work well for the Neon keeper, but carrying it in other canyons it would quickly become firewood. Pot Shots work really well, and still, sometimes throwing an actual pack works better. The "hooking kit: drill and hook" is extremely powerful, but has ethical issues and is slow. And not as much fun.

Some other ideas kicked around:

A. Dave Black's Softball: take something you can throw really well, like a softball. Drill a hole through it and tie a cord to it. Maybe the 6mm would be best. Throw it downcanyon as far as you can. Maybe it will catch on something, or the cord wrap around something...

B. Rich Carlson's Handful of Hook: take a bunch of hooks of various sizes. Tie together, then a rope to that. Maybe tie to a softball. Chuck the whole thing into a pile of debris. Maybe something will catch.

Rarely have I seen places downstream of a difficult keeper, where either of these tools seems likely to work.

Tom :moses:

[oval]

That would be a drill holder (Petzl Pecker), a 3/8" drill bit, a hammer, and two BD Talon hooks, at least one with an etrier attached - to be more specific. The "Nuclear Option". "Courage in your rucksack", as the climbers used to say. Good to have along in Imlay or Heaps, with unknown water conditions.

(To be more specific)

Tom

Yeah, always a fine line when deciding to leave fixed, non-clean gear. But there are some situations that call for it. Even Reinhold Messner used a hammer and pins and left fixed gear.

I personally wouldn't call it a "nuclear" option, but I wouldn't describe it as unimportant or insignificant either. Just a last resort if other techniques fail or make something unacceptably risky and life threatening.

[ratagonia]

OMG.... Cranberry and vodka out my nose! Thanks!!

What does it mean??:lol8:

It means DSTRBD drinks girly drinks. Cranberry and vodka? THAT'S disturbing.

Tom :moses:

[The Good Cop]

I believe the TR on that venture is on Tom's Rave from last fall, well worth checking out.

[ratagonia]

Anyone ever used a kickboard? It helps lift your partner out of the water. And when there's no water it's nice to have a padded layer doing a shoulder stand.

In Canyoneering, that's called a Pack. With floatation - usually a drybag with extra air in it. As someone said, linking a couple floaty packs together = a raft.

T :moses:

[ratagonia]

Pack with floatation in it works as well as anything. And, it not extra gear. If you need padding, most packs also have a removable foam pad that can work too. Also something you'll have with you.

As long as your partner isn't wearing metal cleats (tricouni nails? Ha ha) in their shoes, I've never felt the need for any padding on a partner assist, shoulder stand, etc. Of course, some of us think we're more durable (or have a higher tolerance for damage) too...


One thing that is a BIG help with that is having variety on your team. Big beefy guys. Little small climber types. Remember, for a dwarf toss you need both a Dwarf AND a Giant.

T

[ratagonia]

I believe the TR on that venture is on Tom's Rave from last fall, well worth checking out.

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0911cricket/index.htm

[The Good Cop]

And Dan, X whatever on that photo in the Cricket monster, that is fantastic, thanks for sharing it!

[Brian in SLC]

Even Reinhold Messner used a hammer and pins and left fixed gear.

Really? Where and on what route? You have a reference for this?

His famous "Murder of the Impossible" talks to taking only a couple pitons for the belays on climbs, which, I'd assume a partner would then remove.

Messner wasn't known for leaving much, if any gear, on a route. Reference the 7th Grade for instance.

Unless you're talking about him leaving his bro...nah...that's not even funny...sorta...

Cheers!

[oldno7]

Shortly after the Neon event, I too went in search of the ultimate weapon for PH escape.
I found this online somewhere and had to have it. It is very light, I could add water or sand in the tube and along with the carabiner attached, I could throw this over 100'.
It "was" the real deal, the "ultimate" tool, until one of the 3 prongs broke off. After that I lost trust in it, although, I think someone with a retail company, based in the MC area, could hire this project back out and it would be a great, light weight escape device. I think you could even throw it far enough in Neon to reach something of substance, not to mention the huge amount of friction that could be obtained with 100'+ of rope on the ground.

[moab mark]

Dan,

That picture of yours is the bomb.:hail2thechief:

Have you got poster size copies of that for sale?

[Iceaxe]

Tough to beat a 5.13/5.14 climber for escaping just about anything..... I've watched climbers of that ability escape many times from potholes I considered nearly impossible to climb out of or around..... Tom hates it when I say this but I'll trade two graybeards and a bag of gadgets any day of the week for one top notch rope gun.... YMMV...

[CarpeyBiggs]

you mean take spiderman? that's our guy!

[Iceaxe]

The only thing I know for certain is the rope gun in our group is never me..... :lol8:

[CarpeyBiggs]

mark, i can get a print done for you. depends on if you want me to mat and frame it, and what size. hit me up, we can figure something out.

[Brian in SLC]

mark, i can get a print done for you. depends on if you want me to mat and frame it, and what size. hit me up, we can figure something out.

Ditto that for me too. 8X10-ish. Great shot.

You do matts and frames? Dang kids can do it all these days...

[Scott Card]

Some other ideas kicked around:

A. Dave Black's Softball: take something you can throw really well, like a softball. Drill a hole through it and tie a cord to it. Maybe the 6mm would be best. Throw it downcanyon as far as you can. Maybe it will catch on something, or the cord wrap around something...

B. Rich Carlson's Handful of Hook: take a bunch of hooks of various sizes. Tie together, then a rope to that. Maybe tie to a softball. Chuck the whole thing into a pile of debris. Maybe something will catch.

Rarely have I seen places downstream of a difficult keeper, where either of these tools seems likely to work.

Tom :moses:Years ago I made the softball thing and I have packed it through a couple of canyons and I have yet to find a place where I could use it. If I could use it, the pack toss was a better option. If anyone wants to try the soft ball thing, let me know and you can borrow mine. The pothole in Neon, if my memory is correct, doesn't lend itself well to the softball or hook throw. There is no debris pile, at least when I have gone through.

[AJ]

The rope goes close to one end, if you can get it there. So this can work ... for short sticks. As the stick gets longer, the stick need to be fatter and fatter. Your 10' Neon stick would need to be 1-1/2" thin wall aluminum, roughly 10 lbs. The 1/2" tent pole on the Happy Hooker is the largest high-strength pole size Easton makes, and notice how flexxy it is.

As Tom (and others) stated; the problem with using a pole is the strength needed. Tom's suggestion of putting the rope towards an edge is definitely a good one; as a rope in the middle would produce more force and break the stick/pole/etc easier. I've used a similar technique with a rope on both ends of a hiking pole to brace a short downclimb. Pulling on one side was levering the pole into a notch; so we could use it to brace our descent. Pulling the other side unlodged the pole (rope went up and over a rock.) As Tom mentioned, there is not a lot of places that would work; and 2) it was pretty darn sketchy. Penalty points for failure were low. I wouldn't dream of doing anything like that at a dangerous location.


Some other ideas kicked around:

A. Dave Black's Softball: take something you can throw really well, like a softball. Drill a hole through it and tie a cord to it. Maybe the 6mm would be best. Throw it downcanyon as far as you can. Maybe it will catch on something, or the cord wrap around something...

B. Rich Carlson's Handful of Hook: take a bunch of hooks of various sizes. Tie together, then a rope to that. Maybe tie to a softball. Chuck the whole thing into a pile of debris. Maybe something will catch.

Rarely have I seen places downstream of a difficult keeper, where either of these tools seems likely to work.

Tom :moses:

In going upcanyon, I've tossed hooks and hooks attached to other things; and had them catch, and (thankfully), hold for upclimbing - even an ascent using mechanical ascenders. However, it's REALLY sketchy; be prepared to change your shorts after you climb up and over and see what a small notch you just trusted your life in. Better to use this as a backup and put your trust in methods that you can see (partner assists, etc.)

[AJ]

I believe the TR on that venture is on Tom's Rave from last fall, well worth checking out.

Tom's got a couple reports on his rave:
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/

I've got our trip on my website: www.adventure-geek.com (http://www.adventure-geek.com) - Look under Trips, and then 10/23/08.

Jason (Goofball) went there just before us; and had a report on this website too...

[ratagonia]

Tough to beat a 5.13/5.14 climber for escaping just about anything..... I've watched climbers of that ability escape many times from potholes I considered nearly impossible to climb out of or around..... Tom hates it when I say this but I'll trade two graybeards and a bag of gadgets any day of the week for one top notch rope gun.... YMMV...

Both types are helpful, that's for sure. Scott Holley was real helpful that July day in Heaps at low water, no hooking kit. The guy could climb 5.12 in a drysuit!

Of course, in SLC, 5.13 climbers are a dime a dozen. Who do you know, SHANE, who has climbed a 5.14? or is that slashed number just a bit of the old Shanester razzle-dazzle?

Tom

[oval]

I've found that having a full group of only climbers beats a group of non-climbers or a climber/non-climber mix for canyoneering. A full group of climbers is usually much faster than a group with non-climbers in it. I don't know about 5.13/14, but certainly a full group of people that regularly climb 5.10 moves a lot faster than most groups. Just my own personal observations.

[ratagonia]

I've found that having a full group of only climbers beats a group of non-climbers or a climber/non-climber mix for canyoneering. A full group of climbers is usually much faster than a group with non-climbers in it. I don't know about 5.13/14, but certainly a full group of people that regularly climb 5.10 moves a lot faster than most groups. Just my own personal observations.

Uh, yeah, sorta, well, NO.

My experience is that people that work well as a team make the best team, and get the team through the canyon most efficiently, and with the most fun. Yes, it certainly helps to have a decent climber or two, but, far from necessary. My experience is actual rock climbers often are the least useful in canyons, at least the first time through, because they think the game is to show off how well they can climb. It's not. Showing off how well you can climb often gets in the way of moving down the canyon smoothly as a team.

YMMV

Tom

[oval]

That's ok Tom, you are entitled to your opinion. In my experiences, climbers move much faster. Maybe you had an experience with a cocky climber or something, or maybe you just couldn't keep up and didn't enjoy it. Like I said, though, when you have a group of climbers at the same level, you can move much faster.

A party is only a fast are their slowest person.

[Iceaxe]

In my experiences, climbers move much faster.

x2

But... As a general rule.... I think this has more to do with age and athletic ability than anything else. Skilled climbers have a tendency to be young and athletic, while skilled canyoneers are made up of a larger cross section of the general public.

[ratagonia]

That's ok Tom, you are entitled to your opinion. In my experiences, climbers move much faster. Maybe you had an experience with a cocky climber or something, or maybe you just couldn't keep up and didn't enjoy it. Like I said, though, when you have a group of climbers at the same level, you can move much faster.

A party is only as fast are their slowest person.

The Trick, William Potter, is in not minding that there is someone slower than you...


Like I said, though, when you have a group of climbers at the same level, you can move much faster.

Isn't that a Syllogism, Oval? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism Yes, a crew of very competent canyon-type climbers will move through a canyon faster than a crew of pudgy, stiff, inflexible grey-beards. Well, duh! Spidey, Landon and AaRAM will outpace Tom, Ram and Jenny. Except that we have trained those three well to courteously wait for us, help us at the hard parts, carry the ropes, cook the meals (uh, well, maybe not) and work with us as a team so we can all have a good time, TOGETHER.


A party is only as fast are their slowest person.

Ah, yes, Grasshopper. You touch on one of my tenets of canyon leadership - "The person who is slowest in the party is the leader". Ponder that koan for awhile...


A party is only as fast are their slowest person.

OK, not the best re-quotation, above... The trick, William Oval, is in using the strength of the stronger members of the party to make the weaker members stronger. If each person does the canyon on their own, then, yes, there will be a slowest person. If you go through as a team, you are likely to go through swifter than the slowest member of the party could negotiate the canyon by themselves. Perhaps you have heard of this concept, Oval - "Teamwork"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teamwork

Just to be clear, I have had MANY experiences with cocky climbers who's skills could be useful to the group, if they cared to make their skills a group asset. Perhaps as a cocky climber, your perception is somewhat different. I've found it takes some time spent in the canyons not only for rock climbers to figure out how to climb through these things, but also in how to work as a member of the team and contribute their strength to the overall strength of the team

Each canyoneer has their own goals for their canyon days. Rushing through the canyon swiftly? Been there, done that. http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0609jihad/index.htm Fun to do once in a while, but not as a focus of my canyon experience, on a regular basis.

On my trips, there is no "slowest person". Seems like we all start at the same time and end at the same time - how is their a slowest person? We are not counting coup... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting_coup

Tom "moses:

[CarpeyBiggs]

hey tom, maybe you should get out with some climbers every now and again! you keeping company with the AARP again?

:lol8:

[CarpeyBiggs]

climbing skills are useful in about 1 percent of all canyon related obstacles. the two just don't really relate all that much.

most important thing for a fast group is a - fitness, b - teamwork, c - anchor building skills, d - strongbacks.

climbing comes in handy if you need to get out of a pothole, or maybe a spicy downclimbing move. but those, in general, make up very little of the actual canyons, except in a few instances. climbers aren't fast because they are climbers. in fact i've met plenty of slow climbers in canyons. but, most climbers are already fit, strong, and can learn anchor building skills quickly, so yes, they do tend to move efficiently.

but climbing is hardly prerequisite to efficiency. and often times, it can makes things go slower, since problems tend to be analyzed in a climbing mentality, instead of a canyon mentality.

[SLCmntjunkie]

IMHO, poor rigging and leadership skills will slow a group down a lot more than mediocre/bad climbers. Having good climbers can help speed a group up but not as much as efficient rigging and problem solving. I suppose it depends on the canyon though.

[Brian in SLC]

climbing skills are useful in about 1 percent of all canyon related obstacles. the two just don't really relate all that much.

most important thing for a fast group is a - fitness, b - teamwork, c - anchor building skills, d - strongbacks.

Some interesting points.

"Good" climbers are into teamwork and tend to have pretty good anchor building skills. They also tend to have fairly good rigging skills.

So much criteria...and so many "issues", that its a hard thing to generalize.

If you had criteria, difficulty of descent, time, and, style, I could probably list examples of all three that are dominated by folks with a fair bit of climbing experience.

Time? Kolob/Imlay/Heaps in a day? Jared, Ryan and Buzz. Very strong climbers. Not as much canyon experience.

Difficulty? Sandthrax up and down? No ropes? Climbers seem to do fairly well.

Style? Imlay naked in low water, without using drilled holes to ascend out of potholes? Strong climber.

What I think muddies the pothole water, is, when you mix groups and you get the climber showing off who's not a team guy, or, a cranky old former climber who insists on using SRT with no contingency anchoring (ha ha).

But, you get a couple of non climbers with a ton of canyon experience together, who are good at teamwork, and, a couple of experienced climbers with little to no canyon experience, who are good at teamwork, and, you have a very similar outcome, methinks.

Also depends on the type of canyon too...

Speaking of climbing, based on the trip reports in the Climbing forum, I'm pretty sure we can start referring to RAM as a climber who canyons... Maybe until canyon season rolls around...har har...

Its all good.

-Brian in SLC

[oval]

Poor Tom, I must have struck a nerve somewhere for such a relatiatory, hostile, and mocking post!

You seem to be upset about climbers in your group that has a mix of non-climbers in it that aren't willing to wait for you. I, on the other hand, am talking about a group of just climbers... where there is no need to "slow down and wait" because everyone is going the same speed.

Climbers can usually downclimb stuff faster, get out of potholes faster, and do approaches (especially class 4 stuff) faster. They are much more self confident and dont require "babying" while they do a move.

Is FAST everything? Of course not! If you can get stuff done before dark, why worry? If you're going with a group of friends on a mellow canyon, then who cares? But if you are concerned about speed, you'd better believe that who you pick and how well they can climb matters; you hit a canyon with a bunch of downclimbing and I guarentee that you'll spend way more time in there with a much greater chance of epiccing if you have just one person that isn't comfortable with downclimbing and has poor climbing skills.

It's funny to me that you get so bent out of shape when someone tries to point out a simple and intuitive counterpoint. Here you are crying "take a mix, it's a lot better" and I make a counterpoint that you can't handle because it doesn't fit your preconceived scenario.

edit: Brian said it very well

[CarpeyBiggs]

good points bdc. i am not going to argue that climbers can't be fast in canyons. i'm just suggesting it isn't a direct relationship, as i think you are saying. i've known really fast climbers in canyons, and i've known plenty who find it awkward and unappealing.

the point is, climbing is really no prerequisite for moving efficiently in canyons. the more important things are just being fit and working with a team. climbers, naturally, are going to fit that category. but just because someone doesn't climb, doesn't mean they move slower. it just means they don't climb...

but, in most canyons, climbing moves don't necessarily relate. in some (like sandthrax, they do.) but, YMMV.

my bet is the fastest canyoneers out there aren't canyoneers at all. they are very fit athletes and trail runners, that could even include climbers! hence why buzz is so fast... the rest of canyoneering is generally easy, by most athletes standards. that may be a gross generalization, and every canyon is different. but in general, the bulk of a canyon is doing easy moves, and walking with some ropes, and occasionally rappelling and building anchors. (of course, with some exceptions...)

tricky downclimbs? one of the best downclimbing canyoneeers i know has no climbing experience that i know of. just saying, they don't necessarily relate. sometimes, yes.

but, in a place with say, 22 rappels and no bolts, i'd say it won't likely matter if your team is all climbers, or if your team is just some fit athletic guys. what's more important is the team work. what makes climbers fast is not necessarily that they are climbers, but that they fit all the other criteria.

but ultimately, i suppose it doesn't really matter to me. i just want to suggest that climbers move faster is kind of only partially true. but not really.

btw, you are a helluva climber, what was your experience in slots like hog?

[ratagonia]

Poor Tom, I must have struck a nerve somewhere for such a relatiatory, hostile, and mocking post!

You seem to be upset about climbers in your group that has a mix of non-climbers in it that aren't willing to wait for you. I, on the other hand, am talking about a group of just climbers... where there is no need to "slow down and wait" because everyone is going the same speed.

Climbers can usually downclimb stuff faster, get out of potholes faster, and do approaches (especially class 4 stuff) faster. They are much more self confident and dont require "babying" while they do a move.

Is FAST everything? Of course not! If you can get stuff done before dark, why worry? If you're going with a group of friends on a mellow canyon, then who cares? But if you are concerned about speed, you'd better believe that who you pick and how well they can climb matters; you hit a canyon with a bunch of downclimbing and I guarentee that you'll spend way more time in there with a much greater chance of epiccing if you have just one person that isn't comfortable with downclimbing and has poor climbing skills.

It's funny to me that you get so bent out of shape when someone tries to point out a simple and intuitive counterpoint. Here you are crying "take a mix, it's a lot better" and I make a counterpoint that you can't handle because it doesn't fit your preconceived scenario.

edit: Brian said it very well

It's a slow news day, is most of it.

You, like I, generalize. You make claims; my observation is the opposite. And I ASS-U-ME you realize that I get out somewhat more than you, see a lot greater mix of groups than you. So I CLAIM my observations have a greater grounding than yours. It's not my "preconceived notions", it is my observations across 500 canyon days in the last 6 years, with a whole amazing variety of people. That's all.

Okay, maybe that's not all. This "Forum" is a place for running ideas up the flagpole and seeing who salutes. While your stated syllogism is salutable, I have a concern that the overall viewpoint that your idea fits into is contrary to my overall canyoneering philosophy, which I attempt to proselytize using Bogley as a pulpit, whenever the opportunity presents.

Canyoneering is for everyone. A mix of people is more fun. People with good skills can make the day more fun by supporting the team. People who are not particularly good climbers can be excellent canyoneers. Climbers are not canyoneers, though some skills transfer over for some people. Good leadership counts.

BDC does a good job of generalizing from a few examples - but does he? Examples out on the .01% of the canyon experience provide very little illumination to the general canyon experience.

Yup, no doubt, a group of experienced, skilled trad climbers with more cojones than brains are going to be much faster climbing up Sandthrax than a bunch of beginner canyoneers. Syllogism - or perhaps more accurately - Sillyism! What does that have to do with canyoneering in general - zip - nada!!!


Time? Kolob/Imlay/Heaps in a day? Jared, Ryan and Buzz. Very strong climbers. Not as much canyon experience.

Yes, those guys are intense animals, incredible climbers, amazing trail-runners. Their stories of learning to canyoneer make for wonderful reading - because it is amazing they survived (Jugging the rope with an ATC and a strong Left Arm - GET OUT!!)! I took Buzz through his first canyon - Heaps - and really did not expect him to canyon again because his technical skills were so poor. They improved. Buzz was along on the Tri-HAD BECAUSE he was their canyoneering expert. They failed to achieve their goal because they were ill-prepared for an important aspect of the Zion Canyoneering Experience - finding the MIA route, and successfully navigating the maze of roads back to the trailhead. And because they failed to appreciate that this would be a difficult task. (And because Kolob was closed most of the summer when they went to go train on it). What does that have to do with canyoneering in general - zip - nada!!!

Yes, My Dear Mr. Oval, there are canyons that involve a lot of downclimbing, that AFTER A FEW CANYONS, climbers can do well. Mr. BDC himself, on his first trip through Leprechaun, struggled a bit more than was pleasant to watch - a new experience for him, a highly skilled trad climber. BDC points out that GOOD climbers know how to work in a team. Yup, they do. But only if they get over their disdain for the non-climbers in their group and decide to figure out how to contribute to the team. If they do that, we label them "Good" climbers; if not, we label them "cocky, self-centered, non-team-oriented" climbers. I guess most of the climbers who would degrade themselves by canyoneering would fit in the first category, but I have certainly seen both.


But, you get a couple of non climbers with a ton of canyon experience together, who are good at teamwork, and, a couple of experienced climbers with little to no canyon experience, who are good at teamwork, and, you have a very similar outcome, methinks.

And I think not, but there is so much grey area, yeah maybe. When you qualify the climbers as "good at teamwork", well yeah, I guess you put a big ol' thumb on the scale and that makes your statement true. Trade routes in Zion, that the BC Desk sends climbers to: lots of struggle, hard to say why, the canyons are straightforward, but climbers still seem to epic in them. Those dudes flashed in Spry - climbers. Other people in Spry that same day, not hurt - canyoneers.

Jus' sayin'...

Tom :moses:

(Mmmmmmm, mud wrestling, my favorite!!)

[jman]

Hmm, valid points Tom.

I have a good friend who is a excellent climber at 5.11s and everything underneath. He weighs about 130lbs and is about 5'7" or 5'8". We got back from a 3 day adventure in Havasupai a few weeks ago, and after the 1st day - his body was tired and exhausted (just from the hike down) that he had to get flown out by helicopter the day we left. We had to use a pole and leave from 4:30am from the campground just to reach the helicopter in time at 7am. It took us 30min to reach the village from the campground.

Anywho, my friend Jeff, he a rock-climbing nut. He scales his house and jumps off the 1st and second story onto his trampoline. He'll cliff-jump from 60ft without hesitation. He'll do double backflips at the Pinecreek swimhole and take crazy jumps straight onto his feet, 15ft up with again, no hestitation.

But....a simple hike (roughly 10miles, all down hill and mostly flat once you past the switchbacks) literally destroyed his body. He said that canyoneering was out for the rest of this year due to him recovering and preparing for boarding this winter. I on the other hand, had a broken ankle (talus) back in March of this year, and recovered perfectly, and had 0 pain/hinderance due to my training and endurance, and long walks/runs in the park.

So ironic..

[oval]

It's a slow news day, is most of it.

You, like I, generalize. You make claims; my observation is the opposite. And I ASS-U-ME you realize that I get out somewhat more than you, see a lot greater mix of groups than you. So I CLAIM my observations have a greater grounding than yours. It's not my "preconceived notions", it is my observations across 500 canyon days in the last 6 years, with a whole amazing variety of people. That's all.

I think that you being a guide gives you an excessively skewed perspective on canyoneering in general, and an ego-boost that precludes listening to anyone else, especially if it disagrees with your practices. Also, from your above statement, it is apparent that you have never been in a full group of climbers, the situation that I am discribing.


Okay, maybe that's not all. This "Forum" is a place for running ideas up the flagpole and seeing who salutes. While your stated syllogism is salutable, I have a concern that the overall viewpoint that your idea fits into is contrary to my overall canyoneering philosophy, which I attempt to proselytize using Bogley as a pulpit, whenever the opportunity presents.

So you do see value in my post? You are one hard to follow nerd-rager, Tom.



Canyoneering is for everyone. A mix of people is more fun. People with good skills can make the day more fun by supporting the team. People who are not particularly good climbers can be excellent canyoneers. Climbers are not canyoneers, though some skills transfer over for some people. Good leadership counts.

Yeah, I just said above that of course anyone can canyoneer and have fun with it without being a climbing guru. Just wanting to get on the pedestal again or attempting at a pathetic criteria to "shut down" my dangerous argument that you could do canyons faster with climbers? I don't get "clash" that you would falsely argue exists.



Yes, My Dear Mr. Oval, there are canyons that involve a lot of downclimbing, that AFTER A FEW CANYONS, climbers can do well. Mr. BDC himself, on his first trip through Leprechaun, struggled a bit more than was pleasant to watch - a new experience for him, a highly skilled trad climber. BDC points out that GOOD climbers know how to work in a team. Yup, they do. But only if they get over their disdain for the non-climbers in their group and decide to figure out how to contribute to the team. If they do that, we label them "Good" climbers; if not, we label them "cocky, self-centered, non-team-oriented" climbers. I guess most of the climbers who would degrade themselves by canyoneering would fit in the first category, but I have certainly seen both.

Ahh, the generalizations and assumptions are too great for me! Which fallacy to tackle first?

Naw, I'll let people figure it out for themselves, but for now, I think the most appropriate description of you is:
cocky, self-centered, non-team-oriented when it comes to any discussion on canyoneering. I'd add ego-maniac to that as well, which I'm sure it takes to be the self-proclaimed lead and enforcer for such a forum as this, for the poor folks that you just have to protect from such dangerous ideas like I have presented here. Feel free to
proselytize using Bogley as a pulpit, whenever the opportunity presents but give up the self-righteousness and intolerance.

[Brian in SLC]

btw, you are a helluva climber, what was your experience in slots like hog?

I'm actually not a "helluva" climber, just, I do it a bunch without being out there on the bell curve, strength wise. So, fairly experienced I guess. 350 pitches last year or some such? Yeah, I count 'em. Ha ha. But, none "that" hard. I mostly hang in the mid to low grades. Kids these days, at least the notable ones, come out the chute so darn strong... Rare that I climb at the 5.10 level (maybe if I can cheat). Did do Evil Eye on Devil's Castle recently (6p of up to 5.11a some say, but, I didn't think it was harder than 5.10d, whatever that means). So, saavy enough to cheat when I need to, and, recognize my limitations, which is a skill unto itself I suppose.

Just did the main Hog (with Tom, Rick, Allan, etc, when I ran into you last fall, Tom's b-day weekend). Went ok. I'm probably fairly slow and careful, but, felt solid in it. Glad it didn't get any narrower. The extended narrow stuff probably isn't my cup of tea, but, I see the attraction. And, to be sure, I was kinda a bit more psyched about the stuff you guys get into after some of that. Plus, I was sore, which is always good...!

Some many different aspects to this canyon stuff....

[CarpeyBiggs]

Feel free to but give up the self-righteousness and intolerance.

ha. but then it wouldn't be bogley!

[CarpeyBiggs]

I'm actually not a "helluva" climber....
yeah, lots of mediocre climbers summit st. elias...

but i'm just glad some of you climber types don't mind slummin' it in the forums with us canyon types. :lol8:

[Brian in SLC]

BDC does a good job of generalizing from a few examples - but does he? Examples out on the .01% of the canyon experience provide very little illumination to the general canyon experience.

You gotta be able to set the bar somewhere, though. And, speed ascents/descents, difficulty of stuff, etc, set the bar a bit. So, only illuminates the general experience when it gives some perspective.



Yup, no doubt, a group of experienced, skilled trad climbers with more cojones than brains are going to be much faster climbing up Sandthrax than a bunch of beginner canyoneers. Syllogism - or perhaps more accurately - Sillyism! What does that have to do with canyoneering in general - zip - nada!!!

Well, not in general, maybe, but, it does set the bar. Shows what is possible. When folks see that first hand, or, even comprehend it a bit, then it does have an effect on maybe style. Some cause and effect. I could draw a comparison to climb, like, the Appy's v the Vulgarians for instance. When the rules got bent and climbing grades progressed. Everyone moved up a notch.


Buzz was along on the Tri-HAD BECAUSE he was their canyoneering expert. They failed to achieve their goal because they were ill-prepared for an important aspect of the Zion Canyoneering Experience - finding the MIA route, and successfully navigating the maze of roads back to the trailhead. And because they failed to appreciate that this would be a difficult task. (And because Kolob was closed most of the summer when they went to go train on it). What does that have to do with canyoneering in general - zip - nada!!!

Nah, had they NOT gone up the MIA like he wanted, and, instead did what the young fit, strong climbing kid wanted, and gone out the bottom, then the kid would have finished sub 24 instead of having to take care of that old guy (joking, Buzz! Ha ha!).

What does it have to do with canyoneering? Well, they built off "someone's" Jihad, didn't they? It sets the bar. If folks realize that there's people out there doing these canyons easily in 8 hours each or so, and, they get their game on, mind set to do in a day instead of three days, then, it does have an effect on everyone.

Again, a climbing comparison. The nose in a day. Commonly done now. 5 day ascents? Not near as common. Did speed ascents have an effect on this? Sure. Fairly undeniable. Same with canyoneering. So, not "nada". You yourself have played the speed game. Techniques, gear, etc. All deployed efficiently. Why? Because time out matters.


Mr. BDC himself, on his first trip through Leprechaun, struggled a bit more than was pleasant to watch - a new experience for him, a highly skilled trad climber.

You mean Hog. Wasn't anything new, really. We'd done Lep the day before, and, only rappelled once. And, I've always been fairly cautious on down climbs. Watching you skittle around was pretty entertaining. The man in his element. All that experience makes a big difference. Very much an elevated comfort level for you. As it should be. You've got the milage.

I've always been fairly uneasy with tight places. I've been stuck in a canyon (that spot in Davis Canyon dropping in from the road). These tight, long, narrow slots are not something I migrate towards. I do ok in some chimney and OW type stuff. But, I fear for when it gets "interesting". A man's gotta know his limitations...

What was probably painful to watch was me rappelling double strand...ha ha.


Trade routes in Zion, that the BC Desk sends climbers to: lots of struggle, hard to say why, the canyons are straightforward, but climbers still seem to epic in them. Those dudes flashed in Spry - climbers. Other people in Spry that same day, not hurt - canyoneers.

Fatalities in canyons? Climbers v non climbers. So subjective. Plenty of SAR's in Zion if you're looking for examples. Of the SAR's, climbers v non climbers? Dunno. Fun to ponder, methinks.

Some "climbers" aren't that saavy as climbers. Some canyoneers ditto. Its a hard thing to generalize.

I agree that some folks are just in tune with being "out". Climbers or non-climbers. Saavy regardless of the label.

Fun to think (and spray) about, though.

Geez, now you got me thinkin' I need to do a canyon again...

[Brian in SLC]

yeah, lots of mediocre climbers summit st. elias...

but i'm just glad some you climber types don't mind slummin' it in the forums with us canyon types. :lol8:

Denied on St. Elias. 2 for 3 in the range, though (Bona and East Ridge of Logan). My next big trip? Climbing on the beach in Italy? Ha ha. Evolution, baby. Or, embracing decadence...

I think part of the reason I like the canyon forums, though, is the techniques, rigging, experience, comradery, all that, really do compare to climbing for me. And, frankly, its fun and good entertainment.

Plus, canyoneers do really neat festivals in great climbing terrain...!

[spinesnaper]

I have been thinking about the issue of keeper potholes as my partner and I have been progressing through the less technical canyons. When we are ready, I think the ultimate keeper pothole technique will be going more experienced canyoneers.

In reading about the various devices proposed, has anyone tried some of the lighter weight tactical breeching gear? I am thinking of a collapsible titanium climbing stick. The first device is called a Ruhl Tech Breaching Folding Pole Ladder with Alternating steps. It is 7.5 feet tall and weighs 9.5 lbs. Don't really know how tall this needs to be but I am sure someone out there does. (ruhltechbreaching.com). Might save a lot of time.

Another device is a folding, menacing hook called a Yates Afgan hook and deploys on a long aluminum pole and carries a step ladder below it. This stuff can be seen in the tactical section of the yates gear website.

I am just saying that if one is willing to spend a grand on a dry suit, why not on a titanium collapsible ladder. If it was on Tom's website and the weight was reasonable even if the price is steep, I'd be a customer if I knew it would increase my safety.

I'd post pictures but I am too young on this site.

Ken

[CarpeyBiggs]

ladders - aiders or etrier's
technical hook - happy hooker, grappling hook, or talon

10 pound ladder? - only if you carry it. and 7.5 feet tall sounds way too short. multiple aiders can easily reach this length.

http://canyoneeringusa.com/shop/home.php?cat=258

[CarpeyBiggs]

and who is spending a grand on drysuits? :lol8:

[spinesnaper]

Ok, so a tactical ladder is out.

I certainly didn't pay that for my drysuit. I have noticed that it seems to gain two new holes for every trip down canyon. Perhaps I should have bought a new one. However, I have come to respect the wisdom of the wetsuit.

Ken

[CarpeyBiggs]

yeah, drysuits don't really work in canyons. but, i don't spend alot of time in zion-like slots, where they are probably best suited. outside of zion, they just get killed.

however, they might be a reasonable choice for times like freezefest, but every year there seems to be some people who get leaks. wetsuits just seem to work better.

in terms of defeating potholes, i'm sure there are some good ideas yet to figure out, but i wonder if most of them will be situational. most of the "techniques" are just reworks of systems that have always been used. i.e., throws and hooks (drills aren't necessary anymore). in fact, i'm unaware of anyone finding a pothole that CAN'T be defeated by natural means (or already present bolts or holes). i don't think it's really a systems problem anymore. it's just making sure one is efficient enough with the skills.

it also could probably be solved with a happy hooker or something else, if the partner assist didn't work. but we didn't have it with us. we didn't know how deep the water would be, so we were happy to find it wasn't a big deal. but, if the sand was scoured... it'd be tough.

that said, i've seen a couple potholes that scare the living piss out of me. probably 5 of them. sandbags have defeated a few of them. and a very lucky partner assist defeated the other. if this pothole i'm thinking of is ever scoured out, it could be pretty ugly. the throw was too far for sand bags, and the lip had nothing to catch on anyways. it was the last rap though, so it could be solved by setting it first, and then doing the canyon... but that kind of spoils the fun. i do know of one other monster keeper that does have to be set before going to the head of the canyon, although it has been defeated with a bunch of swimmers, some pseudo-potshots, and a 75 pound gymnast... lol.

here's some photos of it from eric godfrey.

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[ratagonia]

I have been thinking about the issue of keeper potholes as my partner and I have been progressing through the less technical canyons. When we are ready, I think the ultimate keeper pothole technique will be going with more experienced canyoneers.

In reading about the various devices proposed, has anyone tried some of the lighter weight tactical breeching gear? I am thinking of a collapsible titanium climbing stick. The first device is called a Ruhl Tech Breaching Folding Pole Ladder with Alternating steps. It is 7.5 feet tall and weighs 9.5 lbs. Don't really know how tall this needs to be but I am sure someone out there does. (ruhltechbreaching.com). Might save a lot of time.

Another device is a folding, menacing hook called a Yates Afgan hook and deploys on a long aluminum pole and carries a step ladder below it. This stuff can be seen in the tactical section of the yates gear website.

I am just saying that if one is willing to spend a grand on a dry suit, why not on a titanium collapsible ladder. If it was on Tom's website and the weight was reasonable even if the price is steep, I'd be a customer if I knew it would increase my safety.

I'd post pictures but I am too young on this site.

Ken

Welcome to the Bogley, Spine-snapper!

Yeah, those tools are interesting, but unlikely to be generally useful. And extra 9.5 lbs? I gotta get more than 7.5 feet from that, Jeff Dredge or Ryan "The Crane" Hull can lift me 7.5 feet and are self-propelled, when available. The Yates thingee is a derivative of the Happy Hooker; and the HH has proved to be a rarely-useful canyoneering tool, not worth the 1-1/2 lbs to carry it, in general.

Throwing bags works pretty well.

Tom :moses:

[hank moon]

Boss, boss!

De Crane, De Crane!

[ratagonia]

hey tom, maybe you should get out with some climbers every now and again! you keeping company with the AARP again?

:lol8:

At least on the AARP trips, I have half a chance of being the fastest!!!

Tom

[sasteve49]

Had an interesting series of 4 deeeep potholes in a canyon on Powell last Tuesday. Threw potshots into the last(4th and only dry) hole for the guide rope,and then set up the MaxxiPad on a flat surface, piled with sand. Hooked up the rap rope AND the guide rope to the 'Pad and traversed these holes easily. They were half fill with water and especially the 3rd hole was too deep to stand but I tiblocked out first then one-man pulled Rick and finally we pulled Maria out.She did not even get wet, traversing over all the holes on the guide rope off the MaxxiPad!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJdbAtkSA-k

[ratagonia]

Had an interesting series of 4 deeeep potholes in a canyon on Powell last Tuesday. Threw potshots into the last(4th and only dry) hole for the guide rope,and then set up the MaxxiPad on a flat surface, piled with sand. Hooked up the rap rope AND the guide rope to the 'Pad and traversed these holes easily. They were half fill with water and especially the 3rd hole was too deep to stand but I tiblocked out first then one-man pulled Rick and finally we pulled Maria out.She did not even get wet, traversing over all the holes on the guide rope off the MaxxiPad!

Did you video the whole thing? Looks like fun.

I'm unclear - did you throw-to-a-guided-rappel for the whole set? If so, then why were you in the 3rd pothole??? Curious minds want to know!

Tom

[sasteve49]

The potshots were in the 4th pothole(the furthest we could throw round that corner) and this was the guide rope attached back to the MaxxiPad. So we could only go as far as the 3rd, then tiblock out and over into the 4th, where I took over from the potshots as meat for the guide rope so Maria could use the guide to come over into the 4th. The 4th hole was dry and fairly easy to get out of.Too busy to vid the whole process....
By the way Tom,what were the conditions in Imlay today and did you do the Sneak?

[ratagonia]

By the way Tom,what were the conditions in Imlay today and did you do the Sneak?

Next week. At least I hope Dean is on the same schedule...

Tom

[sasteve49]

Dean just emailed me, said he has not heard back from you lately. He wants to know if Imlay still on, he will be arriving Wednesday. Have fun.

[EvergreenDean]

Actually, Steve and I were emailing about drinking beer whilst we are in Springdale. Mentioned I hadn't heard from you but assume we are still on for Imlay. You got my cell...

[taatmk]

37037

Ok. I realize that this is a 2 year old thread, but I have been hoping to elevate my skill set to include pot hole escapes. I've only been to a few minor, fairly easy ones thus far. Been reading a lot of great info on the subject here. Also have been considering the methods explained in my readings, and also floating ideas around myself.

Question for those with experience, and not to sound like this idea comes from the Walmart Blue Light special isle, but besides packing the weight, what would be the disadvantage of packing a deflated Svylor type inflatable raft for use as a pothole escape? One would avoid expending valuable heat and energy while swimming/assisting others in frigid water, it would provide a "base" for climbing out, etc... Any thoughts are kindly accepted. Is this too 'Mickey Mouse' of an idea?

[MrAdam]

Ok. I realize that this is a 2 year old thread, but I have been hoping to elevate my skill set to include pot hole escapes. I've only been to a few minor, fairly easy ones thus far. Been reading a lot of great info on the subject here. Also have been considering the methods explained in my readings, and also floating ideas around myself.

Question for those with experience, and not to sound like this idea comes from the Walmart Blue Light special isle, but besides packing the weight, what would be the disadvantage of packing a deflated Svylor type inflatable raft for use as a pothole escape? One would avoid expending valuable heat and energy while swimming/assisting others in frigid water, it would provide a "base" for climbing out, etc... Any thoughts are kindly accepted. Is this too 'Mickey Mouse' of an idea?

I am fairly certain this idea has actually been used before. I know it is talked about in Todd Martin's Grand Canyoneering book as a possible escape for the giant pothole in Salt Trail Canyon.

[ratagonia]

Ok. I realize that this is a 2 year old thread, but I have been hoping to elevate my skill set to include pot hole escapes. I've only been to a few minor, fairly easy ones thus far. Been reading a lot of great info on the subject here. Also have been considering the methods explained in my readings, and also floating ideas around myself.

Question for those with experience, and not to sound like this idea comes from the Walmart Blue Light special isle, but besides packing the weight, what would be the disadvantage of packing a deflated Svylor type inflatable raft for use as a pothole escape? One would avoid expending valuable heat and energy while swimming/assisting others in frigid water, it would provide a "base" for climbing out, etc... Any thoughts are kindly accepted. Is this too 'Mickey Mouse' of an idea?

Could. Have thought about it at times, especially with the new Supai boats:

http://www.supaiadventuregear.com/

But, it only helps to a certain extent. Certainly helpful, but the Pot Shots work quite well and are powerful, meaning that they solve the problem for a wide variety of circumstanced.

The boat PLUS the potshot - now THAT is a powerful tool. Being able to throw from the boat would be a significant advantage in quite a few circumstances.

The boat takes a while to blow up. Is easily damaged. Fairly expensive. Requires carrying it and not using it quite a few times, which tends to be discouraging, so it tends to not be brought on the one trip where it is really needed.

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

I have used a raft to escape a keeper pothole before. But we created the raft by clipping three backpacks together with a couple of biners and stuffing the packs with our empty water bottles, a canyon keg, and a few other floatable items. It worked well enough to get our climber high enough to make a go of it.

No way in hell I'd carry the weight of a blow up raft unless I had a very specific use for it.

Sent using Tapatalk

[canyondevil]

No way in hell I'd carry the weight of a blow up raft unless I had a very specific use for it.


I always carry a blow up sheep. Its like a quarter the weight of a raft, and a whole lot more versatile.

[ewestesen]

37037

Since this thread is moving again, I had a thought, but I don't think it would be very feasible.

For a keeper like this one, how about a sandtrap escape? I don't know how you'd do it... but if you could get the sandtrap up on the opposite lip, and spread out nicely, you could then throw rocks onto it, or some muddy sand, until it creates enough friction to get the first escapee out.

Maybe throwing in a really skinny flexible tent pole would help the sandtrap pop open?

[ratagonia]

Since this thread is moving again, I had a thought, but I don't think it would be very feasible.

For a keeper like this one, how about a sandtrap escape? I don't know how you'd do it... but if you could get the sandtrap up on the opposite lip, and spread out nicely, you could then throw rocks onto it, or some muddy sand, until it creates enough friction to get the first escapee out.

Maybe throwing in a really skinny flexible tent pole would help the sandtrap pop open?

Yeah, maybe make it a little smaller so it is easier to throw, fill it with sand before you throw it...

Hmmmm, maybe something like this?::: http://www.imlaycanyongear.com/potholes.php

Tom

[Iceaxe]

Hmmmm, maybe something like this?::: http://www.imlaycanyongear.com/potholes.php


I was thinking the same exact thing.... :2thumbs:

[ewestesen]

Ha ha... well yeah...

But with the spread out sand trap, you have a lot more friction working in your favor, not just weight... of course... you could just toss several potshots and do the same thing... sooooo....

yeah.

[Rob L]

I always carry a blow up sheep. Its like a quarter the weight of a raft, and a whole lot more versatile.

And are you confessing how to inflate it? :bandit:

[skiclimb3287]

Hmmm... maybe we should hire one of these students to make lightweight "walk on water" shoes for pothole escapes?

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=711&sid=22886060&title=fla-students-walk-on-water-for-class-assignment