Running shoes for bad knees?

[Sombeech]

K so my wife has picked up running in the past couple of years, but I don't feel confident enough to go since I've got bad knees.

Can some good shoes help with the joint pain while running? Am I just looking for extra cushion? Or should I refrain from running altogether?

[DOSS]

ok.. don't take anyones advice.. go to Salt Lake running company.. run on the treadmill have them analize your gait try on about 15 different shoes and make a choice.. when you start running go slow and focus on your form

[CarpeyBiggs]

agree with TC. get the gait analyzed and work on the technique, and strengthen the knees. take it nice and easy, and work into it, and hopefully you'll be fine.

[Rau_Dawg33]

Ditto.

You'd be surprised at how many people run with poor form and then wonder why they keep getting hurt.

[jman]

Ditto.

You'd be surprised at how many people run with poor form and then wonder why they keep getting hurt.

So what it is "proper form" or technique?

For example, I have a little supination when I run. Is that poor form? Or is any supination or pronation acceptable? Personally, it doesn't give me any pain at all. But if I'm doing poorly I'd like to learn better.

[denaliguide]

refrain. i never see joggers with a smile.:lol8:

[CarpeyBiggs]

technically, supination can lead to injuries like tendonitis, depending on your style, but if you haven't been hurt yet, or haven't experienced pain, then no big deal.

however, it all depends on who you talk to. most runners now seem to be buying into the mid-foot strike and fore-foot strike. using your heel at all is like applying the brakes with every stride... so if your heel isn't hitting first, mild supination is (kind of) closer to the anatomically correct stride anyways. (try running barefoot...)

but, i don't run much. but i talked to lots of long distance trail runners and hikers this summer, and it was pretty much a consensus it seemed. put your center of gravity in front of your feet, almost like you are falling to the ground, and then run from the balls of your feet, absorbing as much shock with your ankle/knee/hip combination as possible. with heel strike, your knees tend to blow out first because it is hard to absorb impact. this style of walking/running can be tiring at first, because the body has to relearn habits. shoes often times tend to make technique even worse, especially for those who are heel-strikers (like me!) since they absorb impact that should be learned to absorb through the body.

but everyone will have different opinions, and that's why gait analysis is always a good idea.

[jman]

refrain. i never see joggers with a smile.:lol8:

Haha...now that you mention it.

[trackrunner]

well I'm an expert in this. Salt Lake running company is the best running store I've been to anywhere in the US. The same owner use to own a store up by where you live so you may not have to travel so far. They are so damn good, and have developed a repuation that the best American distance runner of the 90's and the only guy capable of competing with the Kenyan/Ethiopia/Morocco runners, Bob Kennedy, decided to open a chain of stores in his home town as his retirement career. He came to their store specifically to copy their store model & experience. The two best guys to work with and ask questions are Travis & Mike. Both ran with my brother at a D1 university.

From reading your post I suspect two things of coarse these would have to be diagnosed in person:


Improper shoe type for your running mechanics. This is where going to Salt Lake Running will get you in the correct shoe. All runners will fit in to one of these running groups. a) Pronation: Over-Pronation, under-pronation (supination), or neutral-pronation. b) Foot Strike: heal, mid (flat), ball. c) Arch types: flat foot, small arch, high arch. So times those together 3*3*3 and there are at a minimum 27 basic shoe types. But inserts can also solve arch types.
Pain is an indication there may be something wrong with your forum. SLRC can help some with this. Basically it's the same as weight lifting rule: better to lift with correct form at less reps and/or less weight, than lift with poor form at more reps and/or more weight. It's better to run at less mileage and/or effort with correct forum.

[jman]

technically, supination can lead to injuries like tendonitis, depending on your style, but if you haven't been hurt yet, or haven't experienced pain, then no big deal.

however, it all depends on who you talk to. most runners now seem to be buying into the mid-foot strike and fore-foot strike. using your heel at all is like applying the brakes with every stride... so if your heel isn't hitting first, mild supination is (kind of) closer to the anatomically correct stride anyways. (try running barefoot...)

but, i don't run much. but i talked to lots of long distance trail runners and hikers this summer, and it was pretty much a consensus it seemed. put your center of gravity in front of your feet, almost like you are falling to the ground, and then run from the balls of your feet, absorbing as much shock with your ankle/knee/hip combination as possible. with heel strike, your knees tend to blow out first because it is hard to absorb impact. this style of walking/running can be tiring at first, because the body has to relearn habits. shoes often times tend to make technique even worse, especially for those who are heel-strikers (like me!) since they absorb impact that should be learned to absorb through the body.

but everyone will have different opinions, and that's why gait analysis is always a good idea.

Hmm, that's interesting. Thanks!

I hear more and more that barefoot running is the "best" training for running.

How much does this analysis cost?
Reason why I ask is I am now in training for my first ever half-marathon in Ogden next year. First, it gives me a goal to stay fit and exercise. Second, is kinda a personal victory over the rehab and doctors saying I would "never run, or for at least then next 10 years)" since my rappelling accident in Moab this year...

[CarpeyBiggs]

well, if you have a PT do the analysis, it's probably expensive, but certain to analyze more completely your stride. if you have a good running shop with a knowledgeable person perform it, it's free. salt lake running company is free, as far as i know.

[Rau_Dawg33]

What Carpey said.
I couldn't have put it better.


refrain. i never see joggers with a smile.:lol8:
Not on the road. But hit the trails and just try not to smile.

Barefooting is the way to go. Atleast for me. I had degenerating tissue in both hips and both knees. Lots of Pain!!! Until the day i took my shoes off.
Never looked back. Just take it slow if you decide to try it. There are all sorts of muscles in your feet/arch that have atrophied since we were forced to put on our shoes as children.

[Sombeech]

I've just begun to hear about barefoot running too. I'm assuming these are the shoes?

36898

[jman]

Thanks guys! I'll give that a shot.

[Rau_Dawg33]

I've just begun to hear about barefoot running too. I'm assuming these are the shoes?

36898
Thats one option. I used mine for about two months before i got tired of the stink.

Here's what i prefer.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Foot-outside.jpg

[Sombeech]

so ACTUAL barefoot running? Dang, I'd think my feet would be killing me after the first run.

[Rau_Dawg33]

yup.

It takes some time for your skin and muscles to get re-used to being barefoot.
But its the most natural and primal thing i think we could do.
If you think about it, mankind has been running barefoot for ages. Athletic shoes have only been around since the 70's.
There are even studies that show that shoes are the cause of running related injuries.

If you're interested there's a great book called "Born To Run" by Christopher McDougall all about it.
Even if you don't buy into all the theories and ideas presented in it, its still a really exciting read and i recommend it to all.

[trackrunner]

So what it is "proper form" or technique?

For example, I have a little supination when I run. Is that poor form? Or is any supination or pronation acceptable? Personally, it doesn't give me any pain at all. But if I'm doing poorly I'd like to learn better.

actually that isn't a form, it's a mechanics. everyone one will fall into one of the groups I posted earlier naturally. none are bad. running in the incorrect shoe for your mechanic type is bad. changing someone from their natural mechanic type can be bad. I know a woman that had extreme supination that it was sickening to watch. everyone tried to change it. she started to have injuries. everyone thought it was because of the supination, so they tried to change it more. injuries still kept on happening. it wasn't until someone that knew what they were doing was able to work with her and recognize her natural mechanics. he taught her to run again with her natural mechanic in the correct shoe type. she went on to become a NCAA D1 all-american she never suffered cronic injury again. I've seen her shoes. her supination was so bad that only one small side of her shoes would wear down while the rest still looked brand new. looked like someone took only that edge to a belt sander but it worked for her.


technically, supination can lead to injuries like tendonitis, depending on your style, but if you haven't been hurt yet, or haven't experienced pain, then no big deal.

however, it all depends on who you talk to. most runners now seem to be buying into the mid-foot strike and fore-foot strike. using your heel at all is like applying the brakes with every stride... so if your heel isn't hitting first, mild supination is (kind of) closer to the anatomically correct stride anyways. (try running barefoot...)

but, i don't run much. but i talked to lots of long distance trail runners and hikers this summer, and it was pretty much a consensus it seemed. put your center of gravity in front of your feet, almost like you are falling to the ground, and then run from the balls of your feet, absorbing as much shock with your ankle/knee/hip combination as possible. with heel strike, your knees tend to blow out first because it is hard to absorb impact. this style of walking/running can be tiring at first, because the body has to relearn habits. shoes often times tend to make technique even worse, especially for those who are heel-strikers (like me!) since they absorb impact that should be learned to absorb through the body.

but everyone will have different opinions, and that's why gait analysis is always a good idea.

well this also depends on the type of running you are doing. you were talking to a lot of ultra trail distance runners. my natural mechanics is a heal strike with a mild pronation. you are correct, it's actually a slow mechanic compared to the natural fore foot neutral-pronation striking some of the Kenyan's I use to run against competitively had. but it's my natural mechanic and that was theirs. I could keep up with them until they started sprinting to the finish. naturally my mechanics would change during a sprint to a faster mechanic but all of their genetics (foot strike, muscle fiber twitch, probably the biggest was the genetic code to tolerate lactic acid at a higher threshold, etc) are staked in their favor to win that race.

but the guys you talked to that changed their foot strike I bet I could smoke them in a track race using my natural mechanics. but I can guarantee they would smoke me in an ultra race if I used my natural mechanics. I'd break down. I too would have to change my mechanics to take that pounding.

like I wrote it's the type of running. when I was sprinting to beat those Kenyan's down the home stretch I was running on the forefoot with a long stride and quick turnover. training runs, long tempo runs, 8k 10k my natural mechanic with medium turnover and stride would work. 100 mile ultrarunning type stuff I would switch to what you describe mid to fore foot, slow shallow stride. a series of small shallow jumps as I've best heard it descripbed.

if there is a runner that has mechanics that lead to injuries and they had no goals from running, no desire to run fast for long distances, other than the only goal is to get out there and enjoy it I would absolutely recommend what you describe as the way to solve it. A great book to read on that would be "Born To Run"

YMMV

[trackrunner]

yup.
If you're interested there's a great book called "Born To Run" by Christopher McDougall all about it.
Even if you don't buy into all the theories and ideas presented in it, its still a really exciting read and i recommend it to all.

Radio West interview with the author (http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/kuer/news.newsmain/article/184/0/1687773/RadioWest.%28M-F..11AM..and..7PM%29/81310.Born.to.Run)

he is someone I would say changing the stride helped. not out there to win a major 10K but to get out and just enjoy it without injures.

It's actually interesting to see people running down the road. I can nearly accurately tell who is out there running because they enjoy it and who is out there hating it and forcing it.

[Jaxx]

get some Huaraches!

http://www.invisibleshoe.com/