Using the Piranha

[p40whk]

Like Jaxx says - I'd look at the amount of friction your rappel device is providing, and possibly your rapping technique. You should be able to rappel without your hands getting hot. You may have too little friction, or may be rapping too fast (sort of inter-related). Fast, racy rappels are a whole different sport from the raps done in your usual Colorado Plateau canyons.

Yeah, I usually double line rappel using an ATC but we were trying out the Piranha on a single line and probably didn't have the friction set correctly. The rappel was 120 feet so it got pretty hot 3/4 of the way down. I've always used gloves out of habit but have never needed them before. I'm 220# and was using the Piranha at the lowest friction setting to start (which I should have been using the highest in hind sight) and it's a bit different than the ATC. We wanted to used it a few times to get used to it before our trip. I'll still carry both and if I'm not comfortable with the Piranha then I can always switch back.

[ratagonia]

Yeah, I usually double line rappel using an ATC but we were trying out the Piranha on a single line and probably didn't have the friction set correctly. The rappel was 120 feet so it got pretty hot 3/4 of the way down. I've always used gloves out of habit but have never needed them before. I'm 220# and was using the Piranha at the lowest friction setting to start (which I should have been using the highest in hind sight) and it's a bit different than the ATC. We wanted to used it a few times to get used to it before our trip. I'll still carry both and if I'm not comfortable with the Piranha then I can always switch back.

Shane - might want to split this out to a "Using the Pirana" thread...

The instructions that come with the Pirana are OK, but I notice they don't give a weight range - probably don't want to stick their neck out the way I about to do.

When trying a new device, a bottom belay is a better backup than gloves.

The three standard friction modes for the Pirana are shown on the tag. The ZERO setting involves just through the hole and into the biner; the ONE setting hooks the rope around one of the basal horns; the TWO setting involves hooking around both of the basal horns. The next "real" (Pirana only) setting above that is a LOT more friction, so does not really fit into the plan.

The next setting up from that is to add a redirect biner on your off-side leg loop and run it through that. I call that the THREE setting.
The next setting up from that is to extend the rappel device with two carabiners, and add a Z-rig carabiner to the large hole of the Pirana = FOUR setting.

For a single 8mm rope (BW Canyon Pro BROKEN IN, Imlay 8mm, Imlay Canyon Fire 8.3mm), for SHORT rappels (<80 feet) WITH a backup system:

50 to 100 lbs: Zero setting
100 to 150 lbs: One setting
150 to 200 lbs: Two setting
200 to 250 lbs: Three setting
250 up: uh, on your own, buddy!

That's the basic chart, here's the adjustments:

If you are not using any kind of backup system, you should probably go UP one setting. Better would be to use an autobloc or bottom belay as a backup system.
If you use an Imlay 9mm rope, go down one setting. Other rope diameters and brands may require different adjustments.
If you use two ropes, go down one setting.
If you are tired, cranky, wet, hypothermic, scared, or out of practice, go up one setting.
If you are using a new Canyon Pro, go up one or two settings.
If the rappel is long (>80 feet; shorter than 200 feet), go up one setting.
If the rappel is really long, then the weight of the rope counts, and you will have to make an adjustment of one setting half way down. Be ready for that.

Some ropes, when they get wet, are faster. Go up one setting. Some ropes, when they get dirty, are slower. Go down one setting.

If you are doing a guided rappel, go down one setting. If the guided rappel does not do a lot of guiding, but is mostly rappelling, don't go down one setting.
If there are interesting members of the attractive gender around, you will be tempted to go down one setting. Your brain is working poorly, go UP one setting.

You get the idea...

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

I'm 220# and was using the Piranha

From my personal experience... there are better rappel devices then the Piranha for large framed canyoneers.... nothing against the Piranha other then heavy weights have to dial in a lot of friction before stepping over the edge, which I don't consider "ideal".... YMMV...

[UtahAdventureGuide]

The next setting up from that is to extend the rappel device with two carabiners, and add a Z-rig carabiner to the large hole of the Pirana = FOUR setting.Tom :moses:

Tom, Do you have a pic showing this setup?

[p40whk]

Great write up Tom!

I did have someone on belay as I always do when trying new equipment or whenever we can get someone down to the bottom without using ropes (We use a belayer whenever it's possible even on short rappels). I started using the Pirana on the #1 setting based on your write up but after the first rappel, I moved to the #2 setting which was much better. I am using the Imlay 9mm rope but at my weight I think the #3 setting may be better just based on how it felt.

[trackrunner]

Tom, Do you have a pic showing this setup?

not tom but I have one. you'll have to use your imagination on how tom described extending the device. it should be obvious of the placement of the carabiner in the hole of the priana

http://www.outdoorstogether.com/canyoneering/images/rappel_z_diagram.jpg

from this article http://www.outdoorstogether.com/canyoneering/images/rappel_z.jpg

from this discussion at the ACA forum
http://canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=722

[ratagonia]

not tom but I have one. you'll have to use your imagination on how tom described extending the device. it should be obvious of the placement of the carabiner in the hole of the priana

http://www.outdoorstogether.com/canyoneering/images/rappel_z_diagram.jpg

from this article http://www.outdoorstogether.com/canyoneering/images/rappel_z.jpg

from this discussion at the ACA forum
http://canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=722

Yeah, kinda like that, but...

Unfortunate that Mike Clelland's wonderful illustration (copyrighted) is neither attributed nor linked back to the source that paid for the drawing (Rock and Ice Magazine, probably).

Tom

[mhambi]

If there are interesting members of the attractive gender around...
Tom :moses:



Tom, Do you have a pic showing this setup?













:mrgreen:


Thanks for the Piranha info! :2thumbs:

[ratagonia]

Tom, Do you have a pic showing this setup?

:mrgreen:

Thanks for the Piranha info! :2thumbs:

In the rubbish bin, there are many such pictures.
:eek2:

[trackrunner]

Yeah, kinda like that, but...

Unfortunate that Mike Clelland's wonderful illustration (copyrighted) is neither attributed nor linked back to the source that paid for the drawing (Rock and Ice Magazine, probably).

Tom

I linked it to article and source from where it cam from. I'm not the guy pretending it to be my work or permission to reprint.

It appears to be from "Tech Tips article in Climbing Magazine June 2004 by Dylan Taylor"

[hank moon]

Other descent control tips:

Try extending the PIRANA (or other device) 12" or more from your harness, using a sling (extension length check: make sure you can still access your device for lockoffs, changeovers, etc.). An extension can make it *much* easier to control the descent. I use one whenever practical. Caution: beware of the moving rope sawing against the stationary sling, which can sever the sling and make you splat.

Also, keep both hands on the brake line as much as practical. Classic rappel hand position (one hand on the brake line, one hand on rope above the device) is poor technique*, unfortunately reinforced by technical drawings such as the one above.

*w/respect to friction management

[ratagonia]

I linked it to article and source from where it cam from. I'm not the guy pretending it to be my work or permission to reprint.

It appears to be from "Tech Tips article in Climbing Magazine June 2004 by Dylan Taylor"

I did not find attribution at the first link you provided, though I looked around a bit. I avoid visiting the ACA site for personal reasons.

Tom :moses:

[Cirrus2000]

Also, keep both hands on the brake line as much as possible. Classic rappel hand position (one hand on the brake line, one hand above the device) is silly!

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Someone else who thinks like me! I mentioned this in jman's thread about his rap accident in Moab, and no one mentioned whether it seemed a good idea or a bad one. :cry1:

[trackrunner]

I did not find attribution at the first link you provided

I did provide a source. here let me help you



from this article http://www.outdoorstogether.com/canyoneering/images/rappel_z.jpg


there is the link from where it came. I provided my source. this guy/gal pretending to pass it off as his/her work may not have

[trackrunner]

Caution: beware of the moving rope sawing against the stationary sling, which can sever the sling and make you splat.

Hank with your back ground I'm curious what you think of the caution about extending too far in wet class c canyons which may cause the sling to catch something in a pool and pin you under? Is it a good warning?

thanks

[hank moon]

Hank with your back ground I'm curious what you think of the caution about extending too far in wet class c canyons which may cause the sling to catch something in a pool and pin you under? Is it a good warning?

thanks

Hey, i haven't heard of that happening, but sounds plausible. Got any tales?

Looking back to the germ of this thread, hot hand probs are greatly reduced in Class C.

[rcwild]

Hank with your back ground I'm curious what you think of the caution about extending too far in wet class c canyons which may cause the sling to catch something in a pool and pin you under? Is it a good warning?


Hey, i haven't heard of that happening, but sounds plausible. Got any tales?
Looking back to the germ of this thread, hot hand probs are greatly reduced in Class C.

Never heard of the sling used to extend rappelling device being a problem. Quite a few instances of safety lanyard, especially long daisy chains, catching on branches, rocks, etc.

Extending rappel device is probably a bigger issue in Class A/B canyons with tricky starts, i.e. over chockstone, tight crack down-climb required to weight rope, etc. Issue being the rappel device becoming stuck on top of the lip or in a crack.

[trackrunner]

Never heard of the sling used to extend rappelling device being a problem. Quite a few instances of safety lanyard, especially long daisy chains, catching on branches, rocks, etc.

hmmm I thought it was a sling, but with Rich's post, I probably heard it wrong as his list of items makes mores sense. I stand corrected.

so do I have to worry about extending with my purcell prusik then? :mrgreen:




The three standard friction modes for the Pirana are shown on the tag. The ZERO setting involves just through the hole and into the biner; the ONE setting hooks the rope around one of the basal horns; the TWO setting involves hooking around both of the basal horns. The next "real" (Pirana only) setting above that is a LOT more friction, so does not really fit into the plan.

The next setting up from that is to add a redirect biner on your off-side leg loop and run it through that. I call that the THREE setting.

back to the original topic. with the Pirana redirect I've found the first horn redirect awkward (not the initial setup settings but additional braking setting as desribed in 2B in this Petzl manual (http://www.petzl.com/files/all/technical-notice/Sport/D05%20PIRANA%20D05500-02.pdf)). Awkward hand position, sometimes the rope jumps off, I always end up at the second Pirana redirect. the nice thing about the second redirect is it provides a lot more friction which can be a bad thing with too much friction.

If only one redirect is needed for extra friction I like doing the redirect off the leg loop as tom points out in his post.

YMMV

[rcwild]

so do I have to worry about my purcell prusik then? :mrgreen:

Yes, especially in Class C with branches and rocks under water. During an ACA rendezvous in Arizona a few years back a woman slipped during a climb and went under. Her daisy chain caught on a rock and held her under for what others guessed to be one and a half minutes. One of her partners found her with his foot. Couldn't see her through the froth.

Daisy chain, PAS, Chain Reactor, Purcell Prusik ... be extremely careful if you insist on using them in Class C.

[p40whk]

Extending the rappel device is something new to me (instruction in my area is basic), what does this accomplish and what benefit do you gain from this? There's a picture of this in the PDF file linked in Trackrunner's post (#18) on page 2 bottom center of page. Also, how long should this sling be? Looks like less than a foot.

When we were using the Pirana for the first time I had the braking set at the second position under 2A of the instructions which was not enough for me at 220#. I'm not sure if the 3rd position would be much better considering my weight.

[moab mark]

Jeff,

I have an uncle who weighs about 230. I have moved him from a pirana back to a fig. 8 and have him go vertaco(sp). He struggled on a pirana getting enough friction single line unless he used the hook on the top. Then he would have problems with the rope jumping off the hook. If you come up with a way that you get comfortable I would be interested in how you set it up.

Mark

[p40whk]

Jeff,

I have an uncle who weighs about 230. I have moved him from a pirana back to a fig. 8 and have him go vertaco(sp). He struggled on a pirana getting enough friction single line unless he used the hook on the top. Then he would have problems with the rope jumping off the hook. If you come up with a way that you get comfortable I would be interested in how you set it up.

Mark

Mark, I have the exact same issue. I learned on a figure 8 and just figured the Pirana was a natural transition. I thought I was just rusty when I was having problems with it (it jumped off the hook once on me). Based on some of the posts here, it probably isn't the most ideal device for large framed guys like myself.

I still haven't tried it double line but shouldn't have to. I may keep it as a back up or sell it and pick up another ATC.

[Brian in SLC]

Also, keep both hands on the brake line as much as possible. Classic rappel hand position (one hand on the brake line, one hand on rope above the device) is poor technique, unfortunately reinforced by technical drawings such as the one above.

Commonly done, though.

I find the "guide hand" position, on the rope, above my rappel device, helps put me in good rappel body position.

With the use of autoblocks, shunts, etc, its way more common now to see folks recommend what was the guide hand to be below the rappel device now, as, its needed there to keep an autoblock/shunt from locking up.

For lower angle rappels, I like a guide hand above the device. Seems like it puts me in better balance (extending my triangle quite a bit).

Also, having free hand, the guide hand, allows me to push off on obsticles, clear tree branches, bushes, change my position to avoid loose rock, etc...

For super steep or free hanging rappels, yeah, not much use for a guide hand (other than to keep my back from gettin' worked).

So, I don't think its necessarily "poor technique" especially if you have no real need to have your "guide" hand below you.

Be interesting to see how the folks are instructed, or, what "how to" type manuals say that guide hand is deployed. I think most of the UIAGM folks are instructing rappels to use a back up like an autoblock, which makes classical use of a guide hand unneeded.

Things that make you go "hmmm..."

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[Bo_Beck]

Commonly done, though. Also, having free hand, the guide hand, allows me to push off on obsticles, clear tree branches, bushes, change my position to avoid loose rock, etc...

Thats what I've always been explained. If you're comfortable with abseiling and the device and or technique you're using, then no need to ride down holding the rope above the device. Common for folks to believe that they could stop themselves by grabbing that rope! Seen many a burnt hands and fingers (even through gloves).



For super steep or free hanging rappels, yeah, not much use for a guide hand (other than to keep my back from gettin' worked)....

Instead of "riding the pig", do what I do................hang your pack off your foot; it'll keep your body position upright!:lol8:

[Brian in SLC]

Thats what I've always been explained. If you're comfortable with abseiling and the device and or technique you're using, then no need to ride down holding the rope above the device. Common for folks to believe that they could stop themselves by grabbing that rope! Seen many a burnt hands and fingers (even through gloves).

Which is a shame. I think in the heat of battle, even experienced folks can screw especially this up. Tendancy is to just grab any ol' thing available. Which is why Prusik's above a rap device commonly fail to work...

I can't think of a time, starting a steep rappel especially over an obsticle, that I have both hands below me. I might not have my "guide hand" on the rope, per se, but, its helping my position greatly as I get "on rappel".

A scary scenario I think about, is, some times rappels don't go straight down. On a steep traverse, if you had both hands below you, and, were off to the side and slipped (maybe because your body position was too upright, which, I think a guide hand also helps with), and, you pendulummed, that guide hand might keep you from crashing into an obsticle.


Instead of "riding the pig", do what I do................hang your pack off your foot; it'll keep your body position upright!:lol8:

That's funny, and, probably works ok!

A lot of the rappelling thing is body position. Makes it easy to see folks who aren't saavy rappellers, as they aren't in optimal position (I see them every time I drive by the Dogwood crag in Big Cottonwood, ha ha). I think a guide hand helps with body position.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[Cirrus2000]

Thats what I've always been explained. If you're comfortable with abseiling and the device and or technique you're using, then no need to ride down holding the rope above the device. Common for folks to believe that they could stop themselves by grabbing that rope! Seen many a burnt hands and fingers (even through gloves).

Exactly - I figure that newbies see the rope above the device as leading to "safety", so that's what you want to hang on to if you're slipping down too fast. Better to avoid that temptation altogether, by keeping the hand off.


Instead of "riding the pig", do what I do................hang your pack off your foot; it'll keep your body position upright!:lol8:

I love this idea! I fear, though, that if I girth hitched my pack around my ankle that I'd lose all circulation and be in danger of losing my foot on a long rap! :eek2:

[moab mark]

Has anyone tried this for heavy fellers? Rig it for left hand and then rappel right.
I have used this once and it was nice. Gave nice friction and the rope could not jump off the hook.
36136

What about this?
36137

Last one?

36138

Mark

[hank moon]

Hi Brian

I use a hand* on the rope (above DCD) now and then for balance, clearing junk out of the way, etc. Whenever it makes sense. The point I wanted to make is that the classic rappel hand position is often misused and that two hands on the brake line (relatively seldom seen) ought to be presented more by educators as a useful technique for friction management. I changed my original post to make the "poor technique" statement a bit less blankety.

I don't fully understand your idea of using the guide hand to improve body position, unless you are using it to gain stability/balance in order to improve body position. Is that what you mean?

*I do not have a dedicated "guide hand" as I often switch hands, depending on the terrain.

[Iceaxe]

Has anyone tried this for heavy fellers? Rig it for left hand and then rappel right.
I have used this once and it was nice. Gave nice friction and the rope could not jump off the hook.
36136

What about this?
36137

Last one?

36138

Mark


Dang Mark.... are you trying to find ways to put more twists in the rope?

No need, the Piranha does fine on it's own. :lol8:

[Brian in SLC]

I don't fully understand your idea of using the guide hand to improve body position, unless you are using it to gain stability/balance in order to improve body position. Is that what you mean?

Yeah, third leg of triangle. Longer leg = more stability. Also, seems easier to get into the right "L" position for rappelling. Think about hanging straight down from a rope on a vertical wall. With your hands at your waist (or below), walk both of your feet up the wall. Now, do it with one hand on the rope above you. Which is easier? Yeah, that's what I'm talking about...

Its pretty interesting, though, as more folks use two hands below the rappel device (for whatever reason) that you still see the guide hand much more commonly in photos, how to's, etc., above the rappel device.

Reference page 55 of DB's "Canyoneering" for "proper body position on rappel". Note use of guide hand above rappel device (step 8 as "Place your "feeling" hand around the rope about a foot above the rappel device"). Ditto Luebens basic rock climbing (Mountaineers books). Ditto Long's latest fifth edition of "how to rock climb" (see photo's in chapter on "Getting Down" and p250 "uphill, or guide, hand is used mainly for balance"). Ditto the new "Rock Climbing" how to from Stewart Green (see "Basic Rappel Skills" chapter p125, "Place your guide hand above the rappel device"). Etc etc etc.

Can anyone site a reference for not using a guide hand on the rope (above the rap device), in any instruction manual, where a back up below the rappel device is not being used? I've seen it mentioned as an option, but, very rarely do I see it either in photo's or as a primary "how to".

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[p40whk]

Can anyone site a reference for not using a guide hand on the rope (above the rap device), in any instruction manual, where a back up below the rappel device is not being used? I've seen it mentioned as an option, but, very rarely do I see it either in photo's or as a primary "how to".

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

The instruction sheet that came with the Pirana shows both hands below the rappel device (see the link on post #18 of this thread).

[hank moon]

Can anyone site a reference for not using a guide hand on the rope (above the rap device), in any instruction manual, where a back up below the rappel device is not being used? I've seen it mentioned as an option, but, very rarely do I see it either in photo's or as a primary "how to".

Seeking a reference for "not using" a hand above the device will prolly be futile, as that technique is sometimes useful. Both hands on the brake is rarely seen in photos 'cuz most people use only one hand. Why they do so is moot, but prolly more tradition than anything else. There is no good argument for always keeping a hand above the device. It wastes energy, increases rope/hand friction and exposes that hand to being severely crushed under the rope in a botched edge transition (i.e. loss of footing). I have seen this happen and it ain't pretty - especially if the edge is undercut. Extending the device helps improve balance and thus reduces the impulse to grab above the device (plus makes it more difficult - or impossible- to do so). Chalk up another plus for extensions. Ding!

[SlickRock]

Chalk up another plus for extensions. Ding!

Extensions can 1) minimize stuff from getting caught or pinched in the belay device... hair, clothes, even skin. Imagine someone free-hanging on Imlay with 60' feet to the canyon floor when their hair gets sucked into the device. Might prove hard to ascend the rope the 6" it might take to clear an ATC. Extensions, because they're positioned up higher, 2) makes it much easier to create a greater angle for braking. When a pirana is right above your crotch, is your direction of pull optimal? Ideally it should be straight down, not angled off to one side. Extensions 3) give you more rope to work with... and is much easier to make use of two hands for braking. An extension allows you to use your hands up higher to move around an object if needed while still maintaining a solid brake hand. Last, an extension 4) allows you to more easily clip the belay device around to the side of your harness.

If you don't like extending by girthing a full sling length, then double it over effectively halving the extension. That's a length I prefer when I choose to extend the device. But like everything in caving, canyoneering and climbing, adding any additional element into the mix adds points of failure. It needs to be rigged correctly.

New link to Petzl Pirana manual...

Chalk up another plus for extensions. Ding!

Extensions can 1) minimize stuff from getting caught or pinched in the belay device... hair, clothes, even skin. Imagine someone free-hanging on Imlay with 60' feet to the canyon floor when their hair gets sucked into the device. Might prove hard to ascend the rope the 6" it might take to clear an ATC. Extensions, because they're positioned up higher, 2) makes it much easier to create a greater angle for braking. When a pirana is right above your crotch, is your direction of pull optimal? Ideally it should be straight down, not angled off to one side. Extensions 3) give you more rope to work with... and is much easier to make use of two hands for braking. An extension allows you to use your hands up higher to move around an object if needed while still maintaining a solid brake hand. Last, an extension 4) allows you to more easily clip the belay device around to the side of your harness.

If you don't like extending by girthing a full sling length, then double it over effectively halving the extension. That's a length I prefer when I choose to extend the device. But like everything in caving, canyoneering and climbing, adding any additional element into the mix adds points of failure. It needs to be rigged correctly.

[ratagonia]

A new tech tip up on the Pirana, posted on CUSA Tech Tips:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techtips/petzlpiranause/ (http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techtips/petzlpiranause/)

Comment? Typos? Clarifications required?

Can discuss here or send to me direct.

Tom

[Kuya]

A new tech tip up on the Pirana, posted on CUSA Tech Tips:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techtips/petzlpiranause/ (http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techtips/petzlpiranause/)

Comment? Typos? Clarifications required?

Can discuss here or send to me direct.

Tom


Very Nice :2thumbs: I am loving these tech tips!

[2065toyota]

Very imformative write up. Thx