Zions Backcountry Desk Walk-in Questions

[Rudyo]

Hi,
First time poster and longtime lurker here....wonderful forum BTW!

I am trying to find some information on the getting a walk-in permit for the Subway for next Wednesday Aug 4th 2010.
I searched high and low on nps.gov/zions and also here and couldn't find anything real current! Hopefully someone here can comment.

1) I know the Backcountry desk opens at 7:00am, but realistically, what time do I need to be to to have a great chance for permits? 5am? 4am? or even earlier? I guess I can stay there all night if needed.

2) Can I get a permit for my party of 6 or does everyone need to be there in person? If they require everyone to be there I suppose I can just have the others come prior to 7am, or is that not allowed? Teenagers get awfully ornery past about 2am! :-)

3) I know they wont allow camping in the line, but are they OK with a camp chair and blanket/pillow?

Thanks!

[jman]

Hi,
First time poster and longtime lurker here....wonderful forum BTW!

I am trying to find some information on the getting a walk-in permit for the Subway for next Wednesday Aug 4th 2010.
I searched high and low on nps.gov/zions and also here and couldn't find anything real current! Hopefully someone here can comment.

1) I know the Backcountry desk opens at 7:00am, but realistically, what time do I need to be to to have a great chance for permits? 5am? 4am? or even earlier? I guess I can stay there all night if needed.

Since it's during the weekday, you will have a better chance of getting a permit than the weekend. I've showed up at 3am for the Subway on a weekday before and people beat me to the permits. Depends how desperate you are for em. The earliest I've been was at 2am and luckily enough for me, someone showed up at 2:30 looking for Subway permits too.
Obviously, earlier the better.



2) Can I get a permit for my party of 6 or does everyone need to be there in person? If they require everyone to be there I suppose I can just have the others come prior to 7am, or is that not allowed? Teenagers get awfully ornery past about 2am! :-)

Only 1 person needs to be there, while the rest can sleep. But I would take a shift, because you will be awfully tired for your 8 mile semi-technical HOT hike...especially if its your first time through.



3) I know they wont allow camping in the line, but are they OK with a camp chair and blanket/pillow?
Nope - all of that is considered "camping". You can bring extra shirts, sweatshirts, etc. and use those. I've done that and the rangers never said a word that walked past me several times.

Thanks!

[Scott Card]

Hmmm. Depends on the particular day. Wednesday is not the most busy day of the week. I don't know, 4-5 a.m. Tuesday morning should work for the Subway on Wednesday but then again, it just depends on the day. As for question 2, only one person in the party needs be in line. But he/she who gets the permit must be on the hike and produce the permit to the ranger who, from all reports I have heard, WILL be at the trailhead or trail end or both. They seem to be out in force at the Subway this year. (I better get down there to torment and mess with them a bit. I like to get the permit good and wet in the canyon:haha:) You, as permit holder are responsible for the number in your party and if you fudge that, you will get cited. I checked the availability of permits and there are only the 20 walk up permits available. All those to be reserved have been taken. That is how the whole month of August is. So, you will be fighting with other for the 20 available permits. You can line up one day prior to getting the permit and that is HIGHLY advisable. In otherwords, you want to be in line on the morning of the 3rd for your permit on the 4th. Check out this link if it works...

https://zionpermits.nps.gov/backcountry.cfm?TripTypeID=3

Correct me if I am wrong everyone. It has been some time since I have been in that line for the Subway. I have been fortunate enough to go with others who got the permits for Subway or I have gone to not so difficult canyons to get permits for... Heaps, Imlay.... :mrgreen:

[Scott Card]

Jman beat me to it.:fitz::haha: My link goes to the general reservation page for canyons. You must go the Subway page to see availablity but the rules are explained (sorta) if you fish around the site.

[Rudyo]

Thanks for the fast replies!

Yes I understand that I can get the permit the day prior for the subway...which is a VERY good thing! Doing the subway after an all nighter could be interesting!

I clicked all over the nps.gov site and never did see where they said only one person per party had to wait in line... it must be the wonderful organization over there. :roll:

I see the 20 walk-ins available for the 4th, so I guess I'll be there at 2am!

Thanks guys! I'll report back next week!

D.

[jman]

ugh...2am for a canyon.....SO EARLY!! Have fun! Make up your sleep the best you can - seriously you will need it.

[Deathcricket]

Thanks for the fast replies!

Yes I understand that I can get the permit the day prior for the subway...which is a VERY good thing! Doing the subway after an all nighter could be interesting!

I clicked all over the nps.gov site and never did see where they said only one person per party had to wait in line... it must be the wonderful organization over there. :roll:

I see the 20 walk-ins available for the 4th, so I guess I'll be there at 2am!

Thanks guys! I'll report back next week!

D.


If you need a backup plan cause you miss out, hit up Orderville. We were just talking about it here:

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?39740-Questions-about-Orderville-from-a-Noob

[p40whk]

Kind of off topic but if you were lucky enough to get a permit via the lottery are there 2 lines at the backcountry desk? One for walk-ins and another for lottery permit holders?

Trying to figure out if I need to get up at the crack of dawn!

Nevermind! I think I figured it out. If there are a limited number of walk in spots the line will disappear shortly after they open. (at least I hope so!)

[trackrunner]

where is this Zions you speak of?


Hi,
nps.gov/zions

I'm shocked this address actually works. I guess there is a second park with another set of permit issues.

[Ryebrye]

Kind of off topic but if you were lucky enough to get a permit via the lottery are there 2 lines at the backcountry desk? One for walk-ins and another for lottery permit holders?

Trying to figure out if I need to get up at the crack of dawn!

Nevermind! I think I figured it out. If there are a limited number of walk in spots the line will disappear shortly after they open. (at least I hope so!)

If you won the lottery, you have a reservation. So go down the evening before it closes and pick up your reservation. There's no reason to be in line in the morning to get a permit that you already have reserved unless you are doing it that day. I wouldn't personally want to start a Subway hike later than 5 or 6AM because the sun will burn through your skin and melt your bones on the approach.

The speed that the line moves is inversely proportional to how fast you need it to move to get started on time.

If you are an experienced canyoneer with proper gear... etc - you could do make use of the evening well the day before. Go down in the afternoon and pick up a walk-on permit for Keyhole at the same time you are picking up your permit for the Subway (although with the construction I don't know if keyhole is workable or not). Keyhole is a very short canyon with pretty much the shortest exit of any canyon ever worth doing and a pretty short approach.

But back to the topic of the line... Short answer: If you have a reservation go to the desk in the afternoon. Also, if you are coming from the north - you can stop by the much-less-busy north entrance that is just off of I-15.

You can also register for the express permit system at the main visitor center if you get there when the place is open. They make you watch a video completely unrelated to wilderness survival and then will set you up with an account so that you don't have to wait in the long stupid lines for permits you reserve anymore.

[Scott P]

In August, make sure to have a good weather forecast before bothering to stand in line at 2 am. It would be a real bummer to stand in line until morning and then find out the flash flood danger is high (August is peak month for flash floods).

[Rudyo]

Scott P
In August, make sure to have a good weather forecast before bothering to stand in line at 2 am. It would be a real bummer to stand in line until morning and then find out the flash flood danger is high (August is peak month for flash floods).
Yes I will make sure and check the weather. The last time I did the Subway (2006) they would still issue a permit regardless of the weather...has that changed?
Having done the Subway many times (even back in the day when you had to call in and leave a message for permits) we are very cognizant of making sure the weather is OK before dropping into Russell Gulch. I have always done the approach hike with the plan that we may need to backtrack. Never had to yet, but there is always a first time!

The weather is looking pretty mixed the next few days..gnarly!

[ratagonia]

Yes I will make sure and check the weather. The last time I did the Subway (2006) they would still issue a permit regardless of the weather...has that changed?
Having done the Subway many times (even back in the day when you had to call in and leave a message for permits) we are very cognizant of making sure the weather is OK before dropping into Russell Gulch. I have always done the approach hike with the plan that we may need to backtrack. Never had to yet, but there is always a first time!

The weather is looking pretty mixed the next few days..gnarly!



It takes a National Weather Service Flash Flood Warning being in effect for them to NOT issue a permit (plus about 8 hours after the Warning ceases). Remember, you are responsible for your safety, except when you are treated as a baby by the Park, but even then...

:moses:

[p40whk]

Speaking of the weather, what is the best source for checking conditions? We'll be camping and will need to get the forecast before we make our decision to go so if there's a specific radio station, or if we can get it from the visitor center or somewhere else it would be nice to know.

All of the sites I've visited just tell you to check the weather but I haven't seen any recommendations for where to do that.

[Iceaxe]

If you won the lottery, you have a reservation. So go down the evening before it closes and pick up your reservation. There's no reason to be in line in the morning to get a permit that you already have reserved unless you are doing it that day. I wouldn't personally want to start a Subway hike later than 5 or 6AM because the sun will burn through your skin and melt your bones on the approach.

Or you can work it the other way, which is what I usually do..... sleep in, stroll down and pick up your permit about 8:30ish after the long line has dispersed, and then head for the Subway. Take your time doing the Subway and the hike out, particularly the big climb out at the finish will all be in the shade.

More then one way to skin a cat. :nod:

[p40whk]

Or you can work it the other way, which is what I usually do..... sleep in, stroll down and pick up your permit about 8:30ish after the long line has dispersed, and then head for the Subway. Take your time doing the Subway and the hike out, particularly the big climb out at the finish will all be in the shade.

More then one way to skin a cat. :nod:

I'm trying to work out the shuttle logistics now so it's nice to have multiple options. There are 4 of us doing the hike so not sure if we can all hitch a ride.

[Cirrus2000]

I'm trying to work out the shuttle logistics now so it's nice to have multiple options. There are 4 of us doing the hike so not sure if we can all hitch a ride.

Only one person needs to hitch a ride - drive all the way up, do the hike, and the driver hitches a ride back up to the top from the exit. The others just hang out and relax until he/she gets back! :2thumbs:

[Don]

Only one person needs to hitch a ride - drive all the way up, do the hike, and the driver hitches a ride back up to the top from the exit. The others just hang out and relax until he/she gets back! :2thumbs:

+1
Works every time.
Even better if you stash (bury) some beers (and maybe some sandals) at the exit parking lot. Finish the hike, have a brew, switch into sandals, then the driver can hitch for the car.

[trackrunner]

Speaking of the weather, what is the best source for checking conditions? We'll be camping and will need to get the forecast before we make our decision to go so if there's a specific radio station, or if we can get it from the visitor center or somewhere else it would be nice to know.

All of the sites I've visited just tell you to check the weather but I haven't seen any recommendations for where to do that.

the visitor center has the weather forecast posted in more than one place (one by the main VC restroom too). be sure to check the flash flood potential rating too. Those people that got caught in the flash flood a few days ago the rating was moderate for the day which means localized flash floods may occur, and they experienced a localized flash floods.

[ratagonia]

Zions Bank now has a Backcountry Desk? I'm so confused!!!!!

:moses:

[ratagonia]

I'm trying to work out the shuttle logistics now so it's nice to have multiple options. There are 4 of us doing the hike so not sure if we can all hitch a ride.

I prefer having the smallish group all hitch in the morning.

Advantages: 1. you're clean at that point, more presentable; 2. people driving by at 7 in the morning know what's going on, and generally will stop if they have space available. 3. when you get out, yes drink beer, then hop in the car and drive down to town for some victuals. 4. it is a fairly long car shuttle (8 windy miles each way) so it does take some time. Hitching at the start minimizes the time spent on the shuttle, and minimizes the times the road is traversed.

I've always had good luck this way, but... past performance is no guarantee of future returns.

Tom :moses:

[oldno7]

Only one person needs to hitch a ride - drive all the way up, do the hike, and the driver hitches a ride back up to the top from the exit. The others just hang out and get interrogated by officers of the park until he/she gets back! :2thumbs:

Fixed it for ya Kev.:mrgreen:

[Cirrus2000]

Fixed it for ya Kev.:mrgreen:

:roflol::roflol:

Honestly, I've never been accosted yet - though I've only done about 10 permitted hikes in Zion so far...

[Scott Card]

http://www.bogley.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Cirrus2000 http://www.bogley.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?p=410162#post410162)
Only one person needs to hitch a ride - drive all the way up, do the hike, and the driver hitches a ride back up to the top from the exit. The others just hang out and get interrogated by officers of the park until he/she gets back! :2thumbs:


Fixed it for ya Kev.:mrgreen:

:roflol: Ain't that the truth...interrogated by officers at the end of the Subway. :roflol: A perfect way to end a lovely day in the pristine back country of Zion Park. If they would put on a tree outfit or something I may appreciate the "encounter" with the rangers.

[Cirrus2000]

:roflol: Ain't that the truth...interrogated by officers at the end of the Subway. :roflol: A perfect way to end a lovely day in the pristine back country of Zion Park. If they would put on a tree outfit or something I may appreciate the "encounter" with the rangers.

I can just see it!

http://www.hotflick.net/flicks/2008_Get_Smart/008GSM_Bill_Murray_001.jpg

[Felicia]

We had a range come out from under a bush one morning in the Subway. He wanted to see our permit. :roll:

[Scott P]

If you don't have a car shuttle, you can also make the Subway into a loop hike, but it's a little longer that way (but not by very much). There's a trail that exits the canyon (North Creek) just before Little Creek. Getting back to the car does take a little map-reading skills though and if it's really, really hot it may not be the best route since it's away from water for the last few miles.

[Felicia]

I wonder if the ranger would shuttle you up to your car after your permit is reviewed? :lol8:

[Ryebrye]

I wonder if the ranger would shuttle you up to your car after your permit is reviewed? :lol8:

I've had rangers give people in my group lifts before - mostly out of pine creek or other times when we've been hoofing it along the road at night - but I don't have any experience with rangers on the Subway beat. They may be under strict orders to "hide in bushes and attack all who attempt to enter".

We've usually had pretty good luck meeting up when we've come from the top down meeting up with a group doing the bottom-top route on their hike up, and then invariably on their hike back out (since we're usually slow and carrying a metric ton of gear in our packs 'cause we only do it early in the season so we'll have dry suits and crap in our packs weighing us down). In any case, a bit of chatting on the trail usually means you can bum a ride to the top without much trouble.

[Iceaxe]

We had a range come out from under a bush one morning in the Subway. He wanted to see our permit. :roll:

I had the same thing happen in Mystery. First Time I met Ranger Cindy she was hiding under a bush at the top of Mystery Canyon.... kinda like a croc waiting at the ol' watering hole.

Actually I think she was sitting under the bush because it was shady.... but it did scare the crap out of me when she jumped out and asked to see my permit. This is the only time I have been checked for a permit that I was not standing at the actual trailhead.

And I hate the interrogation you now get whenever you encounter a ranger at the Subway. Top or Bottom trailhead.... or if you are lucky you get grilled at both trailhead's these day.....

:cool2:

[Scott Card]

I like to keep the permit in my pocket then I am ready at all times to produce it without having to take off my pack and dig for it. Rangers are busy and appreciate how fast I can produce it. I hike with it in my pocket but it tends to get a bit damp from my perspiration. But no fear, it is rinsed with the refreshing swims so as to say spring water fresh. If I get hot I wring the water out on my head then put it back in my pocket. I usually spill mayo or mustard on my shirt when eating lunch which I promptly wipe up with my handy moist permit. Of course a soiled permit is not a respectful permit so it needs a good rinsing after that. Useful things those permits are. Then at the end of my fun back country experience I eagerly and quickly produce the permit from my pocket to the ranger promptly upon request. The permit itself is a testimony that I, Scott P. Card, have been in the Subway. I have complied with all the rules. :cool2: