Five Ten Canyoneers. What size to buy?

[mtthwlw]

Advice please! (I looked back through the archives, and I didn't see this question. If it's there, let me know.)

I recently bought a pair of 5.10 Canyoneers. I wear 11.5 in everything... and I bought size 12 so I could wear two pairs of socks or neoprene. After a few hikes (Heaps was one of them, the others were much shorter canyons) my big toenails have both turned black and will likely fall off soon.

The shoes fit nicely in the living room, but when I took them on the trail it was different...

Until my toenails turned black, I thought that maybe I was just breaking in an uncomfortable pair of shoes and that they would feel better on the next hike. They really didn't hurt this bad until this last canyon, and in each canyon they have felt progressively worse.

I like the shoes for stemming and climbing and such... but I obviously have a pair of shoes that are too small. Have any of the rest of you found 5.10 Canyoneers to run small? Do you all wear them a full size larger? A size and a half?

I bought them directly from 5.10, and I've written them to ask about their return policy. I now wish I'd bought them from Zappos (and paid $139 instead of $119) because Zappos would take them back-- even after several wears.

[ratagonia]

Advice please! (I looked back through the archives, and I didn't see this question. If it's there, let me know.)

I recently bought a pair of 5.10 Canyoneers. I wear 11.5 in everything... and I bought size 12 so I could wear two pairs of socks or neoprene. After a few hikes (Heaps was one of them, the others were through shorter canyons) my big toenails have both turned black and will likely fall off soon.

Until my toenails turned black, I thought that maybe I was just breaking in an uncomfortable pair of shoes and that they would feel better on the next hike. They really didn't hurt this bad until this last canyon, and in each canyon they have felt progressively worse.

I like the shoes for stemming and climbing and such... but I obviously have a pair of shoes that are too small. Have any of the rest of you found 5.10 Canyoneers to run small? Do you all wear them a full size larger? A size and a half?

I bought them directly from 5.10, and I've written them to ask about their return policy. I now wish I'd bought them from Zappos (and paid $139 instead of $119) because Zappos would take them back-- even after several wears.

Yup. Been there, done that. My feet were golden for the next six months once both big toe nails fell off.

I went up a half size from that, and they have worked great ever since. I don't think the sizes on the box are particularly useful. They definitely need to fit like an old pair of sneakers, and they are super wide. Thus kinda sloppy feeling to escape the toe-bang, but they still work great. They don't "stretch and break in" like a normal pair of shoes. (Try to sell them here, maybe).

They still work "sloppy". For stemming canyons, I know Ram has a pair a halfsize smaller for when they need to fit precisely, and tries not to hike far in them (or with any weight, which works because you don't carry any weight in those kinds of canyons). Some people use an approach shoe for hard stemming canyons like the 5.10 Camp Four. Which has a better fit.

Tom :moses:

[canyonguru]

I use exum rivers and had great sucsess in them but then are worn out and sportiva stopped making them. So now i will probably go with a 5.10 Savant they are supose to be great in the water but are a little more usefull when doing aproach's and should be great for stemming. I just don't do enough canyons to justify spending 120 bucks on such a spesific shoe.

[Iceaxe]

I've noticed the actual size of 5.10 Canyoneers seems to vary between production runs.... so I only buy them in the store wearing the socks I plan on using. YMMV...

Most of the time I end up buying the shoes one size larger than I buy gym shoes and I wear a thin (2mm) neoprene sock. I also trim my toenails before every hike, it's now just part of my pre-hike ritual.

[Scott Card]

I love the sticky rubber, the drain holes, the neoprene cuff, the way they handle themselves in a canyon and I have 9 toe nails with one permanently gone to show for my relationship with the 5.10's. I have a love hate relationship with them. I actually own two pairs. One a full size bigger than my foot that I use in cold water with neo socks. The other I have is just about my size that i wear with little thin socks but wear in the summer months only.

[trackrunner]

so here's my problem with 5.10's I have a narrow foot and 5.10 canyoneers don't fit ever. so I use la sportiva approach shoes which I'm mostly satisfied with. but some very skinny canyons 5.10 canyoneers may work better and hold up better in the skinnies. ideas? anyone else have this problem and found a solution?

[Deathcricket]

I love the sticky rubber, the drain holes, the neoprene cuff, the way they handle themselves in a canyon and I have 9 toe nails with one permanently gone to show for my relationship with the 5.10's. I have a love hate relationship with them.

:eek2::eek2::cry1:

[ratagonia]

so here's my problem with 5.10's I have a narrow foot and 5.10 canyoneers don't fit ever. so I use la sportiva approach shoes which I'm mostly satisfied with. but some very skinny canyons 5.10 canyoneers may work better and hold up better in the skinnies. ideas? anyone else have this problem and found a solution?

In the skinnies, I feel pretty good with other approach shoes from 5.10 or from La Sportiva (depending on which fits you better), though I have gotten used to the soft, floppy feel of the Canyoneers.

The problem is when going in and out of water a LOT, that a leather-based shoe will grow and shrink with each wet/dry cycle and eventually either fall apart or become awful to wear.

You CAN wear the Canyoneer, you will just need to wear a rather large thickness of socks, such as the Argos 5mm sock; and an aftermarket footbed (a cheap one). Altogether, they should provide enough material to fill up the volume of the shoe.

Tom :moses:

[Cirrus2000]

Interesting. I've only ever worn (rented) Canyoneers once (Narrows day hike from the bottom, years ago.) I loved them. I hear the comments about the wide toe box, and it makes sense that I loved them. I have ridiculously wide feet - kind of Hobbit-like - made worse by nasty bone spurs on the big toe joint. Much as I hate to spend that kind of money on shoes that I'll only wear a few times a year, it just might be time to splurge.

Now my feet are about a 10.5, but I usually wear 11 because of the width issue. I guess the 12s would be a little too big for me. If they were 11 or even 11.5, I'd be interested in buying yours, Matthew. :ne_nau:

[Scott Card]

:eek2::eek2::cry1:
It is true. On the bright side, I now can trim my toe nails faster by 1/10th. :haha::crazy:

[Cirrus2000]

It is true. On the bright side, I now can trim my toe nails faster by 1/10th. :haha::crazy:
:roflol:

I've had a couple go that I thought would never come back. But they do. They're like zombie toenails. http://www.fuelblooded.com/news/data/emoticons/zombie.gif

[Scott Card]

:roflol:

They're like zombie toenails. http://www.fuelblooded.com/news/data/emoticons/zombie.gif I named my toenail "Jason" because it wouldn't die after 4 attempts by two MD's. It also had the appearance of something out of a horror movie and constantly was causing problems and pain. Finally a very fine foot doc terminated "Jason" once and for all. . . . and now there are nine little normal piggies and one tombstone.:haha:

[mtthwlw]

Now my feet are about a 10.5, but I usually wear 11 because of the width issue. I guess the 12s would be a little too big for me. If they were 11 or even 11.5, I'd be interested in buying yours, Matthew. :ne_nau:

Sorry, Kev. I wish they were 11.5 for you, but the shoe I have is a size 12-- although a small one. I'll put them in the classifieds here if 5.10 doesn't allow me to send them back. Hopefully someone would pick them up. They're still in good condition. I've only worn them through 4 canyons.

I've also rented some before-- although I know I rented a size 12 and was very happy with it-- and I really liked how 12's felt when I rented them. I'm starting to wonder if what Ice says is true that sizes are different depending on the manufacture date. I've never heard of such a thing. I totally loved them through Heaps-- sticky and well-drained... although my toes did hurt at the end of the trip.

Hopefully 5.10 will take them back. As a University of Redlands alumni (Redlands is where 5.10 calls home) I'm hoping they show a brotha some love. :2thumbs:

[mtthwlw]

Finally a very fine foot doc terminated "Jason" once and for all. . . . and now there are nine little normal piggies and one tombstone.:haha:
Scott,
What's the procedure for killing a toenail? Is it painful? I'm seriously thinking of having it done when these two fall out.
--
Matthew

[blueeyes]

I named my toenail "Jason" because it wouldn't die after 4 attempts by two MD's. It also had the appearance of something out of a horror movie and constantly was causing problems and pain. Finally a very fine foot doc terminated "Jason" once and for all. . . . and now there are nine little normal piggies and one tombstone.:haha:

You should get that tattooed on your toe. "R.I.P Jason" on a tombstone the shape of the toenail.

[Cirrus2000]

Scott,
What's the procedure for killing a toenail? Is it painful? I'm seriously thinking of having it done when these two fall out.
--
Matthew

If you can handle it, go to: http://www.pbase.com/lbliss/toenail2 for photos of a nail removal and (chemical) burning out of the nailbed.


You should get that tattooed on your toe. "R.I.P Jason" on a tombstone the shape of the toenail.

Great idea! :lol8:

[Pelon1]

After a few hikes (Heaps was one of them, the others were much shorter canyons) my big toenails have both turned black and will likely fall off soon.
Both my big toenails fell off after 3 trips through Mystery last year and this year we have done 3-4 canyons (Das Boot yesterday) they are sore and will likely begin the process of coming off again. I think I am going to have mine removed as well. My toenails are just not getting along with my canyoneer 2's so the shoes are staying and the toenails going:clap::clap:

[Felicia]

After several canyoneering seasons of losing toenails, I've found that if I trim the nails as short as possible, the nails do not bang as much and stay on longer. I also wear my 5.10 a 1/2 size larger.

For my female friends, I always recomend removing nail polish before a wet trip. This prevents flakes of polish that fall off the nail and drift between the toes that then create a painful blister - been there, done that.

[Cirrus2000]

I'm starting to wonder if what Ice says is true

That way madness lies... :haha:

[ratagonia]

Sorry, Kev. I wish they were 11.5 for you, but the shoe I have is a size 12-- although a small one. I'll put them in the classifieds here if 5.10 doesn't allow me to send them back. Hopefully someone would pick them up. They're still in good condition. I've only worn them through 4 canyons.

I've also rented some before-- although I know I rented a size 12 and was very happy with it-- and I really liked how 12's felt when I rented them. I'm starting to wonder if what Ice says is true that sizes are different depending on the manufacture date. I've never heard of such a thing. I totally loved them through Heaps-- sticky and well-drained... although my toes did hurt at the end of the trip.

Hopefully 5.10 will take them back. As a University of Redlands alumni (Redlands is where 5.10 calls home) I'm hoping they show a brotha some love. :2thumbs:

Did you rent them at ZAC? We do not use 5.10's sizing because it is so screwy.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

That way madness lies... :haha:

Soon enough you will all be drinking the kool-aid....

[moab mark]

Each time I have rented from Zacs I have ended up in a different size shoe. It is why I have not bought a pair because unless I can sit down and try them on I have serious reservations as to whether they will fit. But next time in Zion I am going to just bite the bullet and buy a pair at Zac's.

My buddy bought some savants and we were not impressed after our trip to the North Wash. They had started to come apart in a couple of places. I just had on a pair of $60 Merrill low ankle hiking shoes and they still looked new? So who knows.

[mtthwlw]

Did you rent them at ZAC? We do not use 5.10's sizing because it is so screwy.

Tom

Maybe that's why I was confused. I went to ZAC and told them that I wanted a 12, and they gave me a shoe that worked. I bought this one thinking that the shoe I rented last year was the same. Screwy.

[mtthwlw]

I sold my too small 5.10 Canyoneers. (To someone who gave me a VERY good price. I've never had anyone offer more than I was asking, and stay firm. What a surprise. Thanks! I hope they are a good deal for you, too.):clap:

Now that I don't have the Canyoneers, I'm thinking about going to the 5.10 Savant. I don't want to go with the La Sportiva because of my wide hobbit feet.

I've talked to one person who says Savants run more normal, or true to size. But I had someone tell me the same on Canyoneers... and my feet still hurt because of it. :cry1:

Anyone else have an opinion? I wish I lived somewhere where I could try a pair on in the store. Maybe someone does carry them down here. Bo?

[CarpeyBiggs]

i like the savant quite well, but the uppers wear out fast in the skinnies. for a place like zion however, i think they'd work great.

i'd probably reinforce the uppers with some aquaseal before i started wearing them next time, so they won't get whole on the toes.

[DSTRBD]

FYI, I run the exum ridge pro's, I LOVE the shoe, But I have maybe 100-120 miles on them and the uppers are showing significant wear, Im unsure of the 5:10's but might have to give them a try. Jeff (p40hwk) loves the savants, and they worked well for him on our hikes.

[p40whk]

Yep, after trying 5 different pairs of the canyoneer's and none of them fitting correctly I ended up buying the Savant's. I wear a 10-1/2 D width for my every day shoes and the Savant's fit me right out of the box at that size. They drain well and have the exact same sole as the canyoneers.

I have worn them with regular socks and with Neosocks and they work great in the wet sandy canyons with the neosock. It took me about 10 miles of hiking in them to break them in (2 short hikes) but they are extremely comfortable.

If you have a wide or narrow foot, I would order two pair in the sizes you think will fit from Zappo's and send the pair that doesn't fit back. With their free shipping both ways and great return policy you'll get the right size and won't have the headache that you would from some other place.

[mtthwlw]

p40whk, thanks. That's what I was looking for. Unfortunately, Zappos is out of my size, or I'd already have a pair. I would order from 5.10, but they charge shipping... and they are back ordered.

Hmmm. Maybe I'll just order size 13 Canyoneer 2's. :cry1:

[CarpeyBiggs]

i looked as well, and it seems every where is out of the savants. wonder if it is discontinued?

[p40whk]

i looked as well, and it seems every where is out of the savants. wonder if it is discontinued?

I had my canyoneers on back order from a local shop for 3 months and they sent the wrong size. Took another month to get 2 more pair in different sizes to try. After my frustration with the canyoneer's not fitting, I ordered the savant's and they were backordered for 2 months. I kept searching online for months hoping I would find my size and all of the sudden Rock/Creek had them in stock. They still have a few sizes here: http://www.rockcreek.com/five-ten/savant-multi-sport-shoe-mens/?ref=RCO_googlebase

I had a long conversation with my local shop because of my frustration with 5.10 and they had nothing good to say about them as a company. From what they told me, they're always running out of stock, they're difficult to deal with and their return policy sucks. It's a shame that an American company can have such great shoes and such a bad reputation with their retailers.

The shoes being out of stock is common, keep searching and if you have time before you need them I'd wait till your size shows up.

To be completely honest; the canyoneers are ugly shoes that I wouldn't wear any place other than a canyon but the Savant's are good looking enough to wear just about anywhere you would wear a tennis shoe and perform just as well.

[CarpeyBiggs]

interesting about 5.10. they are a small family run company i think, which explains why they still operate like a small business. for better or worse i suppose.

the last time i picked savants was at ZAC, though they no longer sell them either. nabbed two pair for $60 a piece. unfortunately, last fall, my savants died in capitol reef. ended up wrapping duct tape around the whole shoe to keep it together.

other guys i know are still definitely using them though. gotta find out where they are getting them i suppose.

[Iceaxe]

FWIW: 5.10 has awesome customer service and has always done good by me whenever I've had a problem with their shoe. And I've had problems with them.... rubber delaminating, buckles popping off.... anyhoo... that has been my experiance. YMMV...

[mtthwlw]

My experience with 5.10 customer service was this:

I complained about my shoes and I got a prompt email from Jon in customer service saying "I have forwarded your email along to our returns/warranty department to see what they can do for ya! Please email me back if you do not hear from Nathan in warranty and I will personally bring your email to his attention."

And then... NOTHING.

I emailed Jon 5 times and he never replied, and never heard anything from Nathan. So, I have no faith in their warranty or customer service department.

If you can't help me, don't tell me that you might. Don't ignore my emails. Just be honest.

I'll buy 5.10's again, but not directly from them. After shipping charges are accounted for, Zappos.com is about as cheap and easier to deal with.

[EvergreenDean]

My buddy bought some savants and we were not impressed after our trip to the North Wash. They had started to come apart in a couple of places. I just had on a pair of $60 Merrill low ankle hiking shoes and they still looked new? So who knows.

Had to laugh. My buddy completely devastated a pair of La Sportiva Boulder X shoes after just one day in the North Wash. He was so proud of the deal he got just days earlier at REI, and bragged about how much cheaper they were than the Canyoneers. On day two the sole was 90% detached and he used super glue and duct tape to get through the trip. This was a true test of REI's absolute return policy, as these things were sooo trashed!

I have also found 5.10's sizing to be wacky. I ALWAYS wear a 12 and bought the Savants in a 12 as a dry canyon shoe. They seemed to fit well but after one day in North Wash they were wearing my pinky toes raw. Kudos to Zappos for accepting the return after some wear. My Canyoneers are a size 13 thanks to ZAC trading me for the 12's I bought and realizing these were too small for neoprene. They absolutely suck for hiking, wearing a big sore above my heel every time, but I would not use anything else for the North Wash or wet canyons. They are just so damned tough and durable. If you are gonna do a lot of canyons I think you need the Canyoneers at a size larger than normal and a pair of less aggressive 5-10's in a half size larger for less demanding canyons and longer hikes.

Shoes are one of the things I tend to collect, as I love having the perfect shoe for any endeavor. Zappos truly rules if you are unsure of your sizing. I have ordered shoes at 10pm and they were on my door by 10am the next morning, no shipping charge. Unbelievable. Some conveniences are well worth a little more money.

[EvergreenDean]

I just don't do enough canyons to justify spending 120 bucks on such a spesific shoe.

Yet your screen name is canyonguru? :mrgreen:

[ratagonia]

Big-Feet Dave has an article on Canyoneers for the large-footed: http://zionadventures.com/ZBlog/

Scroll down a bit.

Tom

[ratagonia]

i looked as well, and it seems every where is out of the savants. wonder if it is discontinued?

As stated, 5.10 is a small company. On most models, it does 1 or 2 production runs a year, so if a model does really well, they cannot make more until 6 months later. I don't know, but everyone being out could quite possibly mean that it has sold through well, and will be available again some time in the future.

Tom