My BSA rant

[DOSS]

On my recent backpacking trip I ran into a bunch of Boy Scouts that made me start to ask some questions about the BSA..
On my trip up to Deseret Peak I passed a number of boys hiking alone with no buddy, One kid was stopped on the trail with no first aid kit, white cotton socks, new boots and huge blisters on both of his heels (I stopped and helped the kid out), another lone boy stopping every 3 steps to get a drink of water and pant, watched a group of boys with their scoutmaster cut a number of switchbacks in the trail (first Adult I had seen for a while with Boys spread out over more than 2 miles back), Dropping trash as they went and generally doing the kind of thing that we would have been yelled at for doing when I was in scouts. Heck at the top right next to the cliff a scoutmaster with his boys was playing tag :eek2: -- I talked to one scout master who was with his group of 10 boys but was the only adult, from what I gathered there were 4 different groups of scouts up there (some mirror sighting thing with the BSA).
Really with multiple groups up there and boys from each group doing this kind of crap I wonder if this is what Boy Scouts is all about - what ever happened to learning some responsibility and stewardship

Back when I was in Boy Scouts (Saying that makes me feel old by the way) We always had to be in full uniform on any Boy Scout trip - failure to be in uniform meant that you were welcome to go home but not on the trip/outing etc. When selling Tickets to the scout-0-rama/ to doing service projects fixing trails or mowing an old persons lawn we had to be in uniform - What ever happened to this - we were told that if we couldn't afford a uniform the troop would buy us one and that if we were too ashamed of wearing the uniform then we shouldn't be in Scouts - either be proud of what you did or don't do it.

ok Rant off but I just don't get it.

[Scott Card]

OK, this behavior is NOT what BSA is all about. Quite the contrary. This is a failure in training and/or with the leaders themselves. The group of Venture Scouts I was with last week changed from their uniform shirt to grubby clothes to go through the slot canyon but when they were done and ready to leave in the trucks, they were all back in their scout shirts. They had three leaders with them at all times (9 boys). I was impressed that prior to leaving the parking spot at Zero Gravity in the Swell, one of the leaders yelled out "Time for zero impact" and one boy posed a question of how far out to go and it was determined 200 feet. I was just watching to see what they were doing at this point. All the boys faned out and picked up what ever junk there was in the 200 foot area from the cars. :nod: :cool2: Some groups do it right. All should. The BSA hasn't changed for the negative since you were there. My experience is that it has become more inclined towards "tread lightly" - zero impact ethics than when you and I were scouts. Sounds like we both had the same type of good scout leader when we were young.

[JONBOYLEMON]

Did you get a troop number? The Scout Office would like to know of this situation. Hopefully they can respond and get things like this taken care of.

Like any group, BSA is not imune to bad leaders in some groups. Considering the pay most Scout masters get, its amazing its as good as it is. I know its costing me 10%+ of my income and a greater percent of my spare time, to be a Scout Master right now. Thats not a real great income.....:haha: I still like to believe the BSA does more good than harm.

I know I have been many places and found beer cans, trash, switchback cutting, etc, from those who would call themselves good stewards of the land as well. My Scouts helped improve these locations.

[JONBOYLEMON]

Looks like Scott beat me to it and said it better.

[DOSS]

Did you get a troop number? The Scout Office would like to know of this situation. Hopefully they can respond and get things like this taken care of.

Like any group, BSA is not imune to bad leaders in some groups. Considering the pay most Scout masters get, its amazing its as good as it is. I know its costing me 10%+ of my income and a greater percent of my spare time, to be a Scout Master right now. Thats not a real great income.....:haha: I still like to believe the BSA does more good than harm.

I know I have been many places and found beer cans, trash, switchback cutting, etc, from those who would call themselves good stewards of the land as well. My Scouts helped improve these locations.

I wish I could have gotten troop numbers but didn't feel like asking them what troop number they were in as they had no uniforms :(

I know that there a many good troops out there but it just seems like all I see anymore are the lazy ones.. I have even told the kids that stop at my house that if they went and put on their full uniform I would buy scout-0-rama tickets from them but have never seen them again..

[Don]

I imagine it would be hard to keep a scout group together when some kids are fast and having fun while others are slow and miserable.
My little brother fell behind in the Uinta Mountains once with a scout group. He missed the turn and went miles down the wrong trail; up some mountain. He was lucky to see some other hikers and ask how far ahead his comrades were. The other hikers hadn’t seen anyone else all day and were walking back down the trail anyway so they walked down with him until a very worried scout master eventually came up the trail to find him.
Scary. I would never want to make a turn on a trail with scouts unless I had full accountability. (Accountability is the Army word for ‘knowing where all your people are.’) Hell, I wouldn’t want to make a turn on a trail (or road) in the Army without knowing where all the privates are and those guys are supposed to know this stuff.

[Iceaxe]

If you have time to bitch you probably have a little extra time to donate to a local scout troop.....

....and help them strengthen any weakness.... the one down side to any group is they are only as strong as their leadership....

[DOSS]

If you have time to bitch you probably have a little extra time to donate to a local scout troop.....

....and help them strengthen any weakness.... the one down side to any group is they are only as strong as their leadership....

Show me a Local Scout Troop that does not have a LDS or other direct religious affiliation (IE church backing) in the Tooele Area and I would be happy to donate some leadership - can't have a devout nonbeliever corrupting those who wish to believe.

[Iceaxe]

can't have a devout nonbeliever corrupting those who wish to believe.

I'm a non-believer.... and I still donate time to the local LDS scouts....

I have given sideshows, intro to canyoneering workshops, went on trips to help provide leadership and skills....

Of course I also coach football at the local Catholic HS and they have also never questioned or had a problem with my non-believer status....

Maybe I'm missing something but I fail to see how religious beliefs stop you from donating time, skills and knowledge to bettering our youth?

When dealing with youth in scouting, football or anything else I just steer clear of religion, its not my place or my responsibility.

[DOSS]

I'm a non-believer.... and I still donate time to the local LDS scouts.... Maybe I'm missing something but I fail to see how religious beliefs stop you from donating time, skills and knowledge to bettering our youth? I just steer clear of religion, its not my place or my responsibility.

I am glad that you donate your time to the local LDS scouts.. Like I said give me a troop without a religious backing at all and I will be happy to help out, your obviously a better person than I am :clap:

[Don]

If you have time to bitch you probably have a little extra time to donate to a local scout troop.....
....and help them strengthen any weakness.... the one down side to any group is they are only as strong as their leadership....


Show me a Local Scout Troop that does not have a LDS or other direct religious affiliation (IE church backing) in the Tooele Area and I would be happy to donate some leadership - can't have a devout nonbeliever corrupting those who wish to believe.

TC's got a good point Shane. We've talked about this before. You may 'help out' but as a non-believer you are barred from any formal role within the organization. You can’t lead a troop, it’s the local troop leader where the problems this thread referred to originate. The BSA refuses to accept me because I don't believe god. Of course I could always have someone sprinkle spaghetti sauce on my face and claim to be a member of the church of the flying spaghetti monster (actually, I would love to see how that played out in court) but why would I want to pretend to be something I’m not based on someone else’s fears about who I am? Additionally, I contend that the BSA is bigoted in their refusal to accept homosexuals. Why would I want to participate in an organization that does not share my ethical standard?

What I’m saying is I have time and skills to donate but mine are not accepted so I have plenty of time to bitch.

I think ‘leadership problems inside the organization’ was supposed to be the subject so we’re a little off-topic with the atheist and gay arguments but you opened this can of worms by suggesting everyone with an opinion should just volunteer with the organization.

[DOSS]

TC's got a good point Shane. We've talked about this before. You may 'help out' but as a non-believer you are barred from any formal role within the organization. You can’t lead a troop, it’s the local troop leader where the problems this thread referred to originate. The BSA refuses to accept me because I don't believe god. Of course I could always have someone sprinkle spaghetti sauce on my face and claim to be a member of the church of the flying spaghetti monster (actually, I would love to see how that played out in court) but why would I want to pretend to be something I’m not based on someone else’s fears about who I am? Additionally, I contend that the BSA is bigoted in their refusal to accept homosexuals. Why would I want to participate in an organization that does not share my ethical standard?

What I’m saying is I have time and skills to donate but mine are not accepted so I have plenty of time to bitch.

I think ‘leadership problems inside the organization’ was supposed to be the subject so we’re a little off-topic with the atheist and gay arguments but you opened this can of worms by suggesting everyone with an opinion should just volunteer with the organization.

Not only would the BSA possibly not want me but I find it extremely disrespectful for someone to go into a place of worship (where most religious based Boy scout meet) and not take part in the standard prayers that are part of the religious based Boy Scouts Groups - if only because it causes questions to ask on why a leader of said group would not take part in said prayers and even more disrespectful would be for me to act like I believed when I do not.

but ya we have kinda strayed from the 'leadership problems inside the organization' topic.. I actually felt bad for those kids as they had some obviously poor leaders taking them out into the hills and could have led many of those kids to fail to appreciate how cool it is to go into the hills due to poor training etc..

[accadacca]

I have to agree with Ice on this one. Its all about the kids and not all that other junk. There has been a lot of scout bashing on Bogley lately and it has been interesting to read the different perspectives. Sure some of your arguments are merited, but they don't help the kids learn valuable lessons in the outdoors. I was once one of those hell raiser scouts who rolled rocks off cliffs, dropped others tents while they slept and all kinds of other rowdy behavoir. However, I did end up getting my Eagle Scout award (although a motorcycle was involved :haha:) and I imagine scouting had a big part in my love of the outdoors. My Dad was probably the biggest reason, but scouting was second and Bogley was founded by this love of the outdoors, hatched by scouting trips in the high country. These kids are the next generation that will either respect the outdoor spaces that we love or get them closed down for future use. My vote is that we do our best to put our differences aside to help teach them the craft that we all love. Not easy, but we have so much to offer the youth.

[Scott Card]

A guy in Sp. Fork has started a Venturing Crew that is co-ed and non-denominational. I am quite interested in the program an one of my buddies and I are looking into it and we are toying with the idea of starting just such a Crew. TooeleCherokee, you may get your wish if you want to help out or you can always start your own. No one said scouts has to be part of a church.

Don's argument however goes to the heart of a non-profit - private organization and their ability to do their own thing. They have the right to set up rules. If one doesn't agree with the rules, you can always start your own similar program or just do your own thing. The constitution doesn't apply to private organizations. It is but one organization that helps boys. Many boys clubs, hiking clubs and others out there and many High School groups to assist with.

[double moo]

I was a Scoutmaster in Boise 27 years ago. I had 12 scouts - 5 LDS members and 7 non. The LDS parents looked to me as their kids babysitter - my problem to do the campouts, fundraisers, etc... In contrast I had a continual run of support from the non-member parents -calling to see if I needed a driver, requesting to join us on campouts, etc... Though the church would not officially have them in a "leadership" role they did serve on the board... and did a far better job. My next run as Scoutmaster was 2 years later in SLC - what a difference! for the worse... It became evident that those not affiliated with the church had their boys involved for the right reasons - but the members... because it's just what they do at that age. Please don't flame me for my experience!!! I had a great run in scouts - Scout master twice, then Varsity coach for 7 years, then assistant Scoutmaster for another 5 - all told over 15 years as an adult. And I stand by my experiences that the member kids were turds compared to the non-members... and the parents often worse!

[Iceaxe]

My point..... which some of you completely missed..... is I'm sure you can find some way of benefiting the local youth.... other then bitching about what they do....


And for those non-believers attempting to take the high ground with a moral and/or ethical argument.... I'll accept your position when you stop spending money stamped "In God We Trust".... until then you are just spraying male bovine excrement.....

[trackrunner]

Though the church would not officially have them in a "leadership" role they did serve on the board

not a rule where I grew up. we once had at a scout learder & committe chair that were members of different faiths from the sponsoring org (LDS). and they also smoked . . .

but sadly I do see some of the things you point out now in the areas I had lived.

TC Lions Clubs (or a similar org) have been known to sponsor BSA programs. you could check this route.

going to agree with Ice on this.

[DOSS]

My point..... which some of you completely missed..... is I'm sure you can find some way of benefiting the local youth.... other then bitching about what they do....
And for those non-believers attempting to take the high ground with a moral and/or ethical argument.... I'll accept your position when you stop spending money stamped "In God We Trust".... until then you are just spraying male bovine excrement.....

I don't think anyone was necessarily bitching about "what" said group does.. I was Ranting about a lack of ethics or a perceived lack of ethics in the groups that I have run across. and your point wasn't missed - it was dismissed :bootyshake:

Also it is not my fault that the currency of the USA says "In God We Trust" on it. Ice, when you start Moderating evenhandedly I will be more than happy to explain to you that there is a difference between Starving yourself by not using the currency of the land you live in and the BSA :)

[mtthwlw]

I was with a group of 20 Varsity Scouts last weekend on a similar adventure. We had 12 adults there to supervise. We picked up trash along trails and on the mountain where we camped. We did 2+ hour conservation project (involving a lot of hard work and even a backhoe) to protect a natural spring. We hiked. We canyoneered. We sang. We taught timeless values. We had a great time. But we didn't all have uniforms-- sorry.

I think the uniform is an important part of Boy Scouts. Sometimes, when the boys "forget" theirs, it might make sense to leave them out. Sometimes I think it's better that they go outdoors and enjoy what Scouting is about.

I'm sorry that you ran into a group without proper leadership. The rule is 1 leader per 10 boys, I believe... but with a minimum of 2 leaders. I'll have to check on those numbers though; LDS troops usually have more than 10:1, because our troops are generally small.

Like Ice said, you'd be welcome to help. I've had people from the BLM offer to do presentations on Leave No Trace. From the Dept. of Natural Resources for presentations on bears... I've never asked if they were "believers"... all that matters is if they really like kids and have something important to share.
--
Matthew

[Don]

Seems a bit off topic (Shane?) but sure I'd love to see 'in god we trust' removed from the money. If only just to watch to shit-storm controversy in the media (Glen Beck would cry tears of blood). Why is god on the money? He's clearly not helping the economy and anyone reading the bible should find it obvious that jesus would not have approved of a god reference on the money. Even if JC hadn't been SO clear in his disapproval why would a believer want god on money used to gamble, pay for sex, pay for murder, pay for prophylactics (haha catholic dig), pay for abortion, pay for porn (a lot of porn), pay for dishonesty, cheating, lying, and even something as EVIL as a book about science.
I'm surprised believers don't see the hypocrisy but really, it just doesn't matter to me, if it said 'frodo lives' or 'use the force luke' I might have an opinion but for now I'll use 'in god we trust' to buy another book about why god fails to exist.

[JONBOYLEMON]

Seems this thread has drifted away from the original BSA rant. Seems maybe the rant was never about the BSA. Impressed though that many people are willing to take their experience as "The gospel truth" because its how things played out for them. All I can say is that it is too bad you had these bad experiences, maybe you are missing the real common denominator. I know that my life and experiences seem to be much different than many of yours. Maybe I am lucky, but the stories are plagarism. But to each his own. I have seen all the same things that are talked about, but I think the reasons are different, and this was with my experiences in Missouri where the blame got pinned on other groups, because the targets here in Utah did not exist, and because thats what people do. If it was hard to bash others, it would be much less common.

Now go take a hike....... that always helps me.

[DOSS]

Seems this thread has drifted away from the original BSA rant. Seems maybe the rant was never about the BSA. Impressed though that many people are willing to take their experience as "The gospel truth" because its how things played out for them. All I can say is that it is too bad you had these bad experiences, maybe you are missing the real common denominator. I know that my life and experiences seem to be much different than many of yours. Maybe I am lucky, but the stories are plagarism. But to each his own. I have seen all the same things that are talked about, but I think the reasons are different, and this was with my experiences in Missouri where the blame got pinned on other groups, because the targets here in Utah did not exist, and because thats what people do. If it was hard to bash others, it would be much less common.

Now go take a hike....... that always helps me.

No if you read the original rant it was about the BSA and the failure of the leaders and Boys that I came across. Ice turned this into something else by stating that if you have time to bitch you should do something and then didn't appreciate the reason some of us cannot or will not assist church backed groups. No matter what way the thread has gone the original Rant was that the Troops and Leaders who are representatives of the Boy Scouts of America that I came across failed miserably. Good job with your reading comprehension though :)

oh yes there is no such thing as "Truth" it is all just perspective and belief so there are no people that take what they see as "gospel truth" (that is just a oxymoron anyhow) they are only stating what they have experienced and their personal view on a thing..

[JONBOYLEMON]

Still drifting........:lol8:

[Iceaxe]

You guys can try and spin this any way you like..... but bottom line.... you are either part of the problem or part of the solution....

[Don]

You guys can try and spin this any way you like..... but bottom line.... you are either part of the problem or part of the solution....

"If you're not with me, then you're my enemy." How very Sithy of you. (Actually sounds like a few christians I know too.)

35616

[Don]

Must one really be part of a solution or part of the problem? I wasn’t teaching scouts to be responsible but nor was I teaching them to be irresponsible. Thus, I am not responsible for their actions either way, right? Of course I could help out by teaching them some responsibility but I am not accepted by the organization so my ‘help’ is not wanted. As a former scout, or even as a scouting-observer I claim the right to comment without claiming any responsibility for their problems. Common sense triumphs again!

[Iceaxe]

It's actually IceVadar....


Lead, follow or get out of the way!


35617

[stefan]

well played ... totally forgot about that photo :haha:

[ratagonia]

A guy in Sp. Fork has started a Venturing Crew that is co-ed and non-denominational. I am quite interested in the program an one of my buddies and I are looking into it and we are toying with the idea of starting just such a Crew. TooeleCherokee, you may get your wish if you want to help out or you can always start your own. No one said scouts has to be part of a church.

Don's argument however goes to the heart of a non-profit - private organization and their ability to do their own thing. They have the right to set up rules. If one doesn't agree with the rules, you can always start your own similar program or just do your own thing. The constitution doesn't apply to private organizations. It is but one organization that helps boys. Many boys clubs, hiking clubs and others out there and many High School groups to assist with.

Boy Scouts of America used to be a "big tent" organization. Many, many years ago, when I was a scout, it was OK to be an atheist - heck, my Explorer Post was sponsored by a Unitarian Church, can't get more atheistic than that!! And of course, in those days, there were no (out) gays, so...

So really Scott, my point is, the Scouts left ME. USED to be a welcoming, ecumenical organization. It is not anymore. We DID start a Scout organization that included atheists and gays - and then they decided to toss people like me (and Don, and Tooele Cherokee) away, because we were not up to their ethical standards.

I'm not angry, I'm sad.

T :moses:

[Don]

well played ... totally forgot about that photo :haha:

Agreed. That was funny.





35622

[Felicia]

I had no idea that BSA was religious. I was a den mom for a couple of years and there was never an issue of religion.

[Iceaxe]

I had no idea that BSA was religious. I was a den mom for a couple of years and there was never an issue of religion.

The BSA is not a religous organization.... but the organization has been accused of religious intolerance and homophobia.... and there is some merit in the accusations.

The big issue with this Bogley rant is not the BSA and religion.... I believe the issue is that most of the BSA troops in Utah are sponsoered by the local LDS (Mormon) Ward and many (on both sides) do not seperate the scouting program from the religious program.

Here is what I found in regards to the BSA official position. I looked this shit up because this thread peeked my interest.....

Boy Scouts are expected to follow the Scout Law which says, in part: "A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others."

The BSA bylaws contain the statement "The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God....The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training."

One of the requirements of the BSA personal fitness merit badge is answer and discuss with their counselor the question: "Are you actively involved in the religious organization of your choice and do you participate in their youth activities?"

As for the gay community the BSA has excluded them from the organization. In Febuary 1991, the BSA's national office issued a "Position statement on homosexuality and the BSA." After referring to moral and traditional family values, they stated: "We believe that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the requirements in the Scout Oath that a Scout be morally straight and in the Scout law that Scout be clean in word and deed, and that homosexuals do not prove a desirable role model for Scouts." Thus, BSA rejected homosexual conduct, and extended this to banning all persons with a homosexual orientation.

[DOSS]

The big issue with this Bogley rant is not the BSA and religion.... I believe the issue is that most of the BSA troops in Utah are sponsoered by the local LDS (Mormon) Ward and many (on both sides) do not seperate the scouting program from the religious program.

Umm this rant had nothing to do with it until you stuck your foot in the door and said someone should support/lead/do something other than bitch and they didn't like the reason people wouldn't do this and completely missed this point or dismissed it :bootyshake:


A Scout is reverent toward God.....The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God
and if someone were to go in and Say.. Hey I don't believe in God (of any sort whatsoever not just LDS) they would A. not be welcome and B. not supporting the BSA's Goals --- but bitching about things that drive you nutz and grown men/women arguing religion and Boy Scouts on the internetz is fun :)

[Iceaxe]

My Apology


Dear TooeleCherokee,

You are correct.... sorry about that.... I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to you for inaccurately representing your thread. I believe that I have wronged you by my thoughtless post. Where I explained the religious angle to Felica in stead of correctly quoting you was not right. I am truly sorry to have done this wrong to you, and your reputation. Sorry once again. It was discourteous of me and very impolite. Sorry.

I am sure my parents are sorry too, for the day that they conceived me. If they posted on Bogley, I am positive they would publicly apologize here too. Likewise, I am sure my brother would also. However I doubt either my kids or my dog would apologize to you since, they are at best indifferent to Bogley, and at worst, unrepentant S.O.B

[ibenick]

:facepalm:

[ratagonia]

I had no idea that BSA was religious. I was a den mom for a couple of years and there was never an issue of religion.

It varies widely from place to place how and where they enforce which rules. I have a beef with the National, but fully support my many scout leader friends here in Utah and the excellent work they do with youth, often at great personal sacrifice/contribution. Good work guys!

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

The BSA is not a religous organization....
The BSA bylaws contain the statement "The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God....The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training."

One of the requirements of the BSA personal fitness merit badge is answer and discuss with their counselor the question: "Are you actively involved in the religious organization of your choice and do you participate in their youth activities?"


That's right, they are non-sectarian, and everyone is welcome - except atheists.

Oh, and gays.

(Sounds like a religious organization to me. Pretty big tent, but religious nonetheless.)

jes sayin'

Tom :moses:

[Cirrus2000]

The big issue with this Bogley rant is not the BSA and religion.... I believe the issue is that most of the BSA troops in Utah are sponsoered by the local LDS (Mormon) Ward and many (on both sides) do not seperate the scouting program from the religious program.

:facepalm:

Having followed this thread religiously (:haha:) I would have to say that this does not represent the beginning of this rant. This particular rant was about Scout leadership (or lack thereof), about being good mentors for the kids, about being a proud, visible representative of your organization. Those are generalities. Example for the first point - leaving a kid behind, lagging on the trail, enduring painful blisters. Examples for the second point - cutting corners on the trail, or playing tag near a cliff. Example of the third - lack of uniforms worn by the participants.

The thread went off the rails when Ice claimed that if one had time to complain about things, then one should get involved, and be part of the solution. Otherwise you're part of the problem.

This brought up a different rant, and had nothing to do with the original point.

So let's look at Ice's point again:


The big issue with this Bogley rant is not the BSA and religion....

This is correct. It is not about the BSA and religion. This Bogley rant is about something completely different: TooeleCherokee was a scout, and he sees changes from when he was involved. Changes that are not for the better, and which appear (to him, at least, in this situation) widespread.


I believe the issue is that most of the BSA troops in Utah are sponsoered by the local LDS (Mormon) Ward and many (on both sides) do not seperate the scouting program from the religious program.

Here's my WTF moment. You believe this is the issue? Did you even read the original post? Cuz if not, let me sum up:


Really with multiple groups up there and boys from each group doing this kind of crap I wonder if this is what Boy Scouts is all about - what ever happened to learning some responsibility and stewardship

So, your self-serving apology, Ice, while containing some very funny vignettes of your personal life, had sweet FA to do with anything at hand. You're not sorry for anything, and if you were you would have handled things much more maturely. I think I see a pattern here, Ice Vader spam destroyer.

I'd also like to point out that where the thread did veer off to also has nothing to do with what you said. Let's look at this once more:


I believe the issue is that most of the BSA troops in Utah are sponsoered by the local LDS (Mormon) Ward and many (on both sides) do not seperate the scouting program from the religious program.

I mean, nevermind the first post - did you read any of this thread, aside from your own pithy remarks?



On another subject:



Don's argument however goes to the heart of a non-profit - private organization and their ability to do their own thing. They have the right to set up rules. If one doesn't agree with the rules, you can always start your own similar program or just do your own thing. The constitution doesn't apply to private organizations. It is but one organization that helps boys. Many boys clubs, hiking clubs and others out there and many High School groups to assist with.
:nod:

And the point of TooeleCherokee, Don, Ratagonia, and me (when I get involved in this part of the discussion) - if I may put words into their mouths - is that, from the outside looking in, a group that claims to be inclusive and (as Tom put it a couple of times) a "big tent" is not quite so on closer inspection. We don't want to ban Scouts. We don't want to force them to be anything they don't want to. We just want to shine a spotlight on what we see as a negative aspect of the organization. Maybe someday it will make a difference, and kids like mine can be welcomed without having to spout lies about their belief system.

[Scott Card]

I would just like to personally vote that :facepalm: is the best emoticon. I saw a couple of these above, therefore it is on topic.

[Cirrus2000]

I would just like to personally vote that :facepalm: is the best emoticon. I saw a couple of these above, therefore it is on topic.

Heh - it's one that I don't even have to look for and click on anymore. Just type it in: "facepalm" with a colon on each side. Love it!

[snccoulter]

And the point of TooeleCherokee, Don, Ratagonia, and me (when I get involved in this part of the discussion) - if I may put words into their mouths - is that, from the outside looking in, a group that claims to be inclusive and (as Tom put it a couple of times) a "big tent" is not quite so on closer inspection. We don't want to ban Scouts. We don't want to force them to be anything they don't want to. We just want to shine a spotlight on what we see as a negative aspect of the organization. Maybe someday it will make a difference, and kids like mine can be welcomed without having to spout lies about their belief system.

There is the reason my kids are not part of the Scouts. They teach tolerance for what they believe but intolerance for everyone else. VERY WELL SAID...

[Don]

Shit. I've been supportive of E in scouts. I've only missed one pack meeting (no choice; Army obligation) and attended more than a few den meetings. (They know I'm not a mormon but E likes it there so they don't know the rest.) But every time we start arguing about scouts here on Bogley I start to rethink my position. I'll keep quiet for cub scouts but down the road E and I are going to have to talk seriously about boy scouts. (Of course, if, knowing my concerns, he still wants to participate I'll be supportive and I'll still (quietly) attend every meeting I can. Which is interesting 'cause I can't imagine a christian knowingly sending their kid to an atheist youth group but I guess hypocrisy is a whole other topic.)
This thread sucks. I love a good argument but I hate to recognize that in a real way my own hypocrisy exists when I disapprove of the organization but encourage E.

35627

[Cirrus2000]

I try not to get all heated up about it, or anything. It is what it is, and maybe one day it will change, and maybe it won't. Maybe one day something better will come along.

Don, there's a lot to be said for a pragmatic approach. E gets a lot of good out of it, for certain. As time goes by, though, make sure he is aware of the full story - the good and the... less good. The very last thing I want to do is to denigrate the great things that Scouting does for kids. Let me reiterate - Scouting does great things for kids. I think it would be hard for anyone to deny that.

But Don, make sure that none of the Scout leaders are your FaceBook friends, or the cat will be out of the bag! :haha:

[Jaxx]

If any of your kids want to join the troop that I am the Assistant Scout Master for then I will make sure they never have to say a prayer and we will skip over the religious stuff for merit badges. He can even change "do my duty to God" in the Oath and say nothing or say another word (spaghetti Monster).

My point I guess is it will depend greatly on what troop you join. I honestly don't care if you are religious or not. We have 2 boys now who have no religious affiliation and I think we have been more than welcoming to them. And I haven't even tried to convert them!

[Jaxx]

And to get back on topic: I don't know what a good solution to rowdy/unsupervised scouts is. They definitely need leaders to keep track of them. Really the only thing you can do is get the troop number(s) and call the local council and they can help educate the leader. Unfortunately some people are ignorant and they still get to be leaders. :crazy:

I have to admit though that watching every boy 100% of the time is hard to do. I have failed on that before. I have had boys do things that I just couldn't understand why they did it. They acted like they didn't do anything wrong. It turns into a learning experience I guess and hopefully no one got hurt!

[Cirrus2000]

If any of your kids want to join the troop that I am the Assistant Scout Master for then I will make sure they never have to say a prayer and we will skip over the religious stuff for merit badges. He can even change "do my duty to God" in the Oath and say nothing or say another word (spaghetti Monster).

My point I guess is it will depend greatly on what troop you join. I honestly don't care if you are religious or not. We have 2 boys now who have no religious affiliation and I think we have been more than welcoming to them. And I haven't even tried to convert them!

Hey Jaxx, I totally get that. But the point, for me, is that this is an official, institutional policy. Individual troops have individual policies - there have been many anecdotes of that.

And I've posted a few times about this, but it's really not something I get my panties in a twist about. I don't really do any lobbying, or anything. I just find it an interesting topic of discussion. Don't go thinking I'm some kind of wild-eyed fanatic. :crazy:

But I'd watch out for those non-affiliated kids - they may be trying to convert you! :haha:

[Jaxx]

Hey Jaxx, I totally get that. But the point, for me, is that this is an official, institutional policy. Individual troops have individual policies - there have been many anecdotes of that.

Good point. I see where you are coming from there.



But I'd watch out for those non-affiliated kids - they may be trying to convert you! :haha:

Ahhhhh! I never thought of that! :haha:

[JONBOYLEMON]

WOW, I just spent the last part of lunch catching up on this wonderful thread. I have learned many a thing.

I wont put any of them up here because it would lead to another 4 pages of the same argument, that I would have to read through in a few days.

In summary though, I believe the guy who welcomed the Scoutmasters to the weeklong camp I attended last week was correct when he said "As scouts, your boys are under the microscope, people will have a negative view of you and them for the one, or many, things you did wrong, and will seldom if ever give thanks, or notice, for all the good and positive things you do, so lets make sure we do our best to present ourselves in a way that will not add to the negative views of scouts" Paraphrased. Well gee I didnt feel enough pressure before........................ Thanks......


It has been an interesting read to say the least. Everyone has a valid point, because thats how they feel or have been made to feel. That makes for a very good point.

See you on the trail.

[Cirrus2000]

WOW, I just spent the last part of lunch catching up on this wonderful thread. I have learned many a thing.

I wont put any of them up here because it would lead to another 4 pages of the same argument, that I would have to read through in a few days.

In summary though, I believe the guy who welcomed the Scoutmasters to the weeklong camp I attended last week was correct when he said "As scouts, your boys are under the microscope, people will have a negative view of you and them for the one, or many, things you did wrong, and will seldom if ever give thanks, or notice, for all the good and positive things you do, so lets make sure we do our best to present ourselves in a way that will not add to the negative views of scouts" Paraphrased. Well gee I didnt feel enough pressure before........................ Thanks......


It has been an interesting read to say the least. Everyone has a valid point, because thats how they feel or have been made to feel. That makes for a very good point.

See you on the trail.

:hail2thechief:

This is why I wanted to emphasize, in an earlier post, that:


The very last thing I want to do is to denigrate the great things that Scouting does for kids. Let me reiterate - Scouting does great things for kids. I think it would be hard for anyone to deny that.

It is easy to get caught up in the carping, and there is a lot of attention paid to the spots where folks fall short of the ideal. So:

To those who dedicate time and effort (and money, etc.) to scouting - you rock! You do great things!

[Sombeech]

I would just like to personally vote that :facepalm: is the best emoticon. I saw a couple of these above, therefore it is on topic.

You're welcome :bandit:
I got a merit badge in facepalms

[DiscGo]

Here are my 2 cents:

Boy Scouts is about making the boys into better men that try and be better members of the community. Yes, you have boys (and leaders sometimes) falling short and making mistakes (like the original rant in this post) but overall the values which are taught and the activities in which the boys participate are usually of great value.

I love the attidute of Shane (and others) of putting the boys first and I think that is awesome. I wish the world had more leaders like that.

We have had several boys in our program over the years who fully participated that were not Mormon. The truth is that most of them did become Mormon, so I can see why non-religious people would disapprove of their kids attending scouting, but we have had several kids who came through our program that we never EVER tried to force religion down their throats or require any participation from them regarding prayers or spiritual thoughts and they made it through our program grateful for their experience.


And for the record the LDS church, nor scouting teach intolerance to the views of others. I can see where you may feel that these organizations do indirectly teach intolerance by their belief systems but I can tell you from years of serving in scouting that I have made a very open and direct point of making sure my young men knew that differing beliefs does not translate to differing value. Whenever my kids use expressions like "that is gay" I call them on it and ask them to explain what they mean. I make a point of explaining to my young men that some of my gay friends, or non-Mormon friends are among the best Christians or people I know.

Anyway, you will likely continue with your bias and I will certainly continue with mine. So I realize that my statements here are futile. I just wanted to go on record, that I believe the Boy Scouts is a great program that helps to make better men, and my young men learn to be more tolerant of others when we are together.

[Scott Card]

DiscGo, no statements on Bogley are futile. Why I have changed several people's opinions and I personally have made a significant mark on society here. I just can't identify quite yet who I have had an influence on or what that mark is but I assure I made a difference. :haha:

It is all good. I like hearing everyone's opinions. Makes me rethink my own opinions and according to some, entrench myself deeper in ignorance. :lol8: