Questions about two-rope rappelling technique

[guaps]

I stumbled onto this site last January, and the trip reports look so fun, I decided I had to try this. I am going on my first real canyoneering trip at the end of the summer. There are four of us going, and two of us have a decent amount of experience climbing, so I am comfortable with most of the equipment and knots I’ll need to do the canyons we are planning (Zion – Subway, Mystery, Behunin). I think I’m comfortable judging the quality/dependability of the anchors for the rappels since I’ve done similar assessments on many of the climbs I’ve done that were bolted or I had to place my own protection.

99% of the climbing I have done has been small (100 ft or less) single pitch climbs where I only needed one rope or bouldering (no rope). So I have a couple questions about how you do the rapps.

I think I understand the basics of a two rope rappel - tie two ropes together, put it through a rappel ring, and feed both ropes through your rappel device. I read Tom’s Utah Canyoneering guide and Bill’s Canyoneering Primer over on Climb-Utah.com. But I have seen a lot of pics here where two strands of rope are on the face of the rock, but the person is only using one for his/her rappel. The second rope looks slack, so it’s not anchored to the bottom in any way.

For example, there are several good ones on sarahlizzy’s recent trip report (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?39867-Zion-trip-2010-photos-(long)). (Very cool pics by the way!)

In these photos, you can see exactly what I’m talking about. The unused half of the rope is obviously slack, so I don’t think it’s anchored to anything.
http://www.sarahlizzy.com/Zion2010/Mystery/Photo-9.jpg
http://www.sarahlizzy.com/Zion2010/Mystery/Photo-11.jpg

So here are my questions:

How is the rope attached/anchored at the top so the slack end of the rope doesn’t pull through the rappel ring?

And how would you retrieve your rope once you reached the bottom with that set up?

Do the first few people rappel using one strand, and then the last person use the double rope rappel?

Thanks for your help/patience!

[Scott Card]

Ya baby!!! A question.

What they are using is a biner block. The rope is blocked against the rapide or ring so that it won't pull through. Look carefully at the second picture you posted where the rope goes throught the rapide. You can see the caribiner but not the knot that is stopping the rope from sliding through. When you are done rappelling, you simply pull the rope from the blocked side and the free end just pulls through like a double rope rappel. I guess the last person could use both ropes but I don't think anyone really does.

Many advantages to a biner block. One big one is that you can sent the length of the rap so that you don't have to have a ton of rope to coil or bag when you are done.

[trackrunner]

How is the rope attached/anchored at the top so the slack end of the rope doesn’t pull through the rappel ring?

a carabiner block, or knot block, or another type of block, allows someone to rappel (Abseil) single rope technique SRT. where as it sounds like you are more familiar with double rope technique DRT.


And how would you retrieve your rope once you reached the bottom with that set up?
pull on the none rappel side


Do the first few people rappel using one strand, and then the last person use the double rope rappel?

can. but it really depends, last person rigs it based of many factors including rope pull. usually if set up SRT I'll just go SRT instead of DRT


but be cautioned since you have no experience with SRT and this will be your first time canyoneering this is not the place to start using new techniques. stick with DRT

[guaps]

Very cool! The only ropes I have are my climbing ropes, so I was going to go buy two 9mm static ropes for this trip. But if I used a biner block, I could do this with one rope and some p-cord tied to the biner to recover my rope. Is that true?

That would be awesome, and save me $100. Thanks!

[rcwild]

Very cool! The only ropes I have are my climbing ropes, so I was going to go buy two 9mm static ropes for this trip. But if I used a biner block, I could do this with one rope and some p-cord tied to the biner to recover my rope. Is that true?

That would be awesome, and save me $100. Thanks!

Possible, but not advisable. People carrying just enough rope for the rappel and thin (cheap) pull cord for pull downs are leaving themselves with very few options. If your real rope is compromised, will you finish the canyon rappelling on your 6mm pull cord? I hope not. If someone needs help while rapping on your real rope, will you rap down to help them on the 6mm? I hope not. Will you rig a haul system to get them up with that 6mm? I hope not.

[rcwild]

BTW ... the top photo shows the pull side of the rope deployed down the wall. Not sure about the bottom photo.

The side of the rope that is not being used for rappel should be kept on top, in the rope bag, until the last person comes down -- UNLESS you have it secured at the anchor. There have been a couple of accidents involving people rappelling on the wrong side of the rope. So easy to avoid with proper rope deployment and rigging.

[guaps]

Possible, but not advisable. People carrying just enough rope for the rappel and thin (cheap) pull cord for pull downs are leaving themselves with very few options. If your real rope is compromised, will you finish the canyon rappelling on your 6mm pull cord? I hope not. If someone needs help while rapping on your real rope, will you rap down to help them on the 6mm? I hope not. Will you rig a haul system to get them up with that 6mm? I hope not.

All great points. Especially since we are new to this, I'll get the extra rope.

[trackrunner]

Very cool! The only ropes I have are my climbing ropes, so I was going to go buy two 9mm static ropes for this trip. But if I used a biner block, I could do this with one rope and some p-cord tied to the biner to recover my rope. Is that true?

That would be awesome, and save me $100. Thanks!

question what are you going to do if stick your rope? rap and use your p-cord (para cord I assume)? I'd advice against para cord. Sand stone canyons could potentially damage para cord quickly and are not intended for life support activites. use a real strength rated cord. for you since this is your first time I'd advice to use a real rope not cord. Edit: Rich gave great additional advice on pull cord consideration

some thread you need to read.

pull cords
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27128

blocks
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?31759-Carabiner-or-Knot-Block

SRT vs DRT
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?38197-Single-strand-vs-double&highlight=single+rope

Rigginng
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37658

And since this is your first canyon and first time attempting new techiques I'd advice to stick with what you are use to, DRT. the below stories these peopole had more SRT than you but still not enough practice. perhaps KISS - Keep it Simple Stupid is the best for you.

I Fell 106 Feet. And Lived
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15131 (http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15131)

Heaps Accident
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7204 (http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7204)

Pine Creek Accident
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13057 (http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13057)

Englestead Accident
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17627 (http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17627)

Pine Creek: SAR in Zion
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8285 (http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8285)

[trackrunner]

BTW ... the top photo shows the pull side of the rope deployed down the wall. Not sure about the bottom photo.

The side of the rope that is not being used for rappel should be kept on top, in the rope bag, until the last person comes down -- UNLESS you have it secured at the anchor. There have been a couple of accidents involving people rappelling on the wrong side of the rope. So easy to avoid with proper rope deployment and rigging.

good point Rich. here is a pic of one way to secure the pull rope to the anchor stolen from Tom's rave site located here. http://canyoneeringusa.com/rave/1006for/indexeng2.htm

http://canyoneeringusa.com/rave/1006for/eng10.jpg

didn't use [img] tags because I thought it may be too large for the window

[sarahlizzy]

BTW ... the top photo shows the pull side of the rope deployed down the wall. Not sure about the bottom photo.

Since I took those photos, I can clarify this.

The first photo shows the last person on rap, hence the pull cord deployed. The second photo does not have the pull cord deployed - there is a rope bag just out of shot.

And thank you for the kind words, guaps :)

[ratagonia]

good point Rich. here is a pic of one way to secure the pull rope to the anchor stolen from Tom's rave site located here. http://canyoneeringusa.com/rave/1006for/indexeng2.htm

http://canyoneeringusa.com/rave/1006for/eng10.jpg

didn't use [img] tags because I thought it may be too large for the window

Additional tech tips on these subjects can be found here: http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/tech/ and here:

http://canyoneeringusa.com/cusapress/knots/index.php

Also, the canyons you mention are primarily dry. You certainly COULD use old climbing ropes on them. I would not lead on rope used for doing canyons. Then again, you should also throw in Pine Creek while you are here, and that is usually wet. For the canyons mentioned (add Pine Creek), the ideal set for a small group might be 2 x 120 footers and 1 x 200 footer. You might have a 200 foot retired climbing rope to use for the long raps in Behunin, and thus don't really need to buy a 200'er.

You might do Lower Fridge as a test trip for Behunin. Couple-a long raps, easy access, short canyon. Might do before doing Pine Creek.

Then again, I AM supposed to encourage people to buy rope...

Tom :moses:

[Brian in SLC]

Since I took those photos, I can clarify this.

The first photo shows the last person on rap, hence the pull cord deployed. The second photo does not have the pull cord deployed - there is a rope bag just out of shot.

I'll echo the above...great photo's!

Curious, though, the "pull cord" in at least one of the pictures above looks like its actually the regular rappel line? Since it doesn't appear to be rigged for contingency, why rappel single strand?

[sarahlizzy]

The thought of leading a rope that has been used in anger in a canyon is ... not comforting! :scared: Last year I bought a reel of Mammut caving 9mm SRT rope - it core shorted after only four canyons (two of which were only the Subway and Keyhole which are comparatively gentle on ropes).

[sarahlizzy]

I'll echo the above...great photo's!

Curious, though, the "pull cord" in at least one of the pictures above looks like its actually the regular rappel line? Since it doesn't appear to be rigged for contingency, why rappel single strand?

Thank you!

Single strand is a personal preference. I know there are pros and cons to each method, and that advocates of each can get quite entrenched in their position, so I shall leave it at that :haha:

[Brian in SLC]

Single strand is a personal preference. I know there are pros and cons to each method, and that advocates of each can get quite entrenched in their position, so I shall leave it at that :haha:

Fair enough (!)...

Still curious though...some of you guys rock climb, eh? When you rappel rock climbing, is it double strand or single? And, why the difference? (I'm wondering why is a dry canyon rappel any different than rappelling a rock climb)

Yeah, we're entrenched...ha ha. But, I'd like to think that some of us at least have an open mind.

For instance, rock climbing last weekend, let's see, out of the 5 times I rappelled, 2 were single rigged from a knot block, and, the other two were double. So, we are "semper gumby" (always flexible).

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[sarahlizzy]

Fair enough (!)...

Still curious though...some of you guys rock climb, eh? When you rappel rock climbing, is it double strand or single? And, why the difference? (I'm wondering why is a dry canyon rappel any different than rappelling a rock climb)

Yeah, we're entrenched...ha ha. But, I'd like to think that some of us at least have an open mind.

For instance, rock climbing last weekend, let's see, out of the 5 times I rappelled, 2 were single rigged from a knot block, and, the other two were double. So, we are "semper gumby" (always flexible).



I only do single pitch sport climbing thus far, and haven't had much need to rappel, but when I do it's usually double line from a threaded bolt, and I hate it! If I carried a second screw gate I might be tempted to block, but I don't.

Furtehrmore, its only usually 10-20 metres, there is nobody else up there, and the alternative is to be lowered off by my belayer.

[guaps]

Additional tech tips on these subjects can be found here: http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/tech/ and here:

http://canyoneeringusa.com/cusapress/knots/index.php

Also, the canyons you mention are primarily dry. You certainly COULD use old climbing ropes on them. I would not lead on rope used for doing canyons. Then again, you should also throw in Pine Creek while you are here, and that is usually wet. For the canyons mentioned (add Pine Creek), the ideal set for a small group might be 2 x 120 footers and 1 x 200 footer. You might have a 200 foot retired climbing rope to use for the long raps in Behunin, and thus don't really need to buy a 200'er.

You might do Lower Fridge as a test trip for Behunin. Couple-a long raps, easy access, short canyon. Might do before doing Pine Creek.

Then again, I AM supposed to encourage people to buy rope...

Tom :moses:

Thanks for the links and especially the tip on Little Fridge. I'll look into that canyon. You must be THE Tom of Tom's Utah Canyoneering Guide that I've spent so many nights reading. Thanks for all the great info!



some thread you need to read.

pull cords
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27128

...


I just spent the last hour and a half reading most of those threads you posted -thanks for all the great reading. The thought of someone clipping into the wrong side of a biner block makes my stomach turn. It's good to understand a little better the pros/cons of those techniques. Some of the techniques discussed in there seem a bit overly complicated - like that releasable figure 8 rats-nest style knot just makes me nervous. I like knots I can look at and see pretty quickly if it's tied right. I'll take the KISS route and stick with what I know.

[Scott Card]

The releasable 8 is actually really good for getting several folks through a canyon quickly AND having options if something goes wrong on rappel. :cool2:

[zoeimogen]

The thought of leading a rope that has been used in anger in a canyon is ... not comforting! :scared: Last year I bought a reel of Mammut caving 9mm SRT rope - it core shorted after only four canyons (two of which were only the Subway and Keyhole which are comparatively gentle on ropes).

There's also the issue that climbing rope or even "static" like Mammut caving rope is quite bouncy when you're near the end of a 165' rap.

[sarahlizzy]

There's also the issue that climbing rope or even "static" like Mammut caving rope is quite bouncy when you're near the end of a 165' rap.

Even half way down that last rap in Pine Creek last year, that Mammut 9mm caving rope did a really good job of making me realise what a yoyo must feel like.

The CanyonFire is much nicer in comparison, and it doesn't core-shot the first time sandstone looks at it funny.

[Brian in SLC]

Even half way down that last rap in Pine Creek last year, that Mammut 9mm caving rope did a really good job of making me realise what a yoyo must feel like.

The CanyonFire is much nicer in comparison, and it doesn't core-shot the first time sandstone looks at it funny.

Ahhh...it, uhh, ain't the rope...

Rappelling smoothly, the rope won't care how static or dynamic it is. Bouncy comes from pilot error and has little to do with rope. Otherwise, the climbing boards would be full of climbers complaining about "the bouncy". And...they aren't.

What's SLC local canyoneer Roger A. say? "Digital versus analog."

Also, rope tends to do better over edges when rigged double strand. Much less (let me guess, half?) chance of of a core shot, IMHO. Remember, folks who use single strand in canyons also sell rope (ha ha!).

Just teasin'.

Sorta.

Cheers!

-Brian in SLC

[ratagonia]

Ahhh...it, uhh, ain't the rope...

Rappelling smoothly, the rope won't care how static or dynamic it is. Bouncy comes from pilot error and has little to do with rope. Otherwise, the climbing boards would be full of climbers complaining about "the bouncy". And...they aren't.

What's SLC local canyoneer Roger A. say? "Digital versus analog."

Also, rope tends to do better over edges when rigged double strand. Much less (let me guess, half?) chance of of a core shot, IMHO. Remember, folks who use single strand in canyons also sell rope (ha ha!).

Just teasin'.

Sorta.

Cheers!

-Brian in SLC

BRIAN - I am shocked!

Truly shocked, and not even being sarcastic or pulling the line from Casablanca. "Static Ropes" have a wide range of characteristics, and some are "pretty bouncy" while some are "not bouncy at all". Yes, certainly technique has an awful lot to do with it and, as I have demonstrated in your presence, setting up with way too much friction is pilot error = bouncy bouncy. But, the bounciness of the rope makes a huge difference, especially when the pilot is not dialing it in smooth as silk.

Climbers don't complain about bouncy ropes because their ropes do what they are supposed to do: bounce a lot when being plummeted on. Since most climbers have never rapped on anything but a dynamic rope, why would they have any idea what they are missing?

YES, SIR, emphatically, double strand works much better when there is a cutting/abrasive edge, and in my experience the cutting effect is less than half. A rap with an abrasive edge would push even die-hard single-strander rope-merchants like myself toward using the two strands together. Or, we can celebrate the new tool in Roger's toolbox and creep creep creep... (well, much easier to just rap double strand, though the Italians were all about the creep).

"Your winnings sir"

Tom :moses:

[sarahlizzy]

I appreciate that I have a bad habit of using too much friction when I'm scared (which is often, acrophobia sucks), but I do that regardless of the rope type and yes, the Mammut stuff is definitely bouncier than the CanyonFire when so-rigged.

[sarahlizzy]

Also, when rapping on climbing rope, "too much friction" seems to be a given, even single strand in low friction mode on an ATC. :haha:

[Brian in SLC]

Yes, certainly technique has an awful lot to do with it and, as I have demonstrated in your presence, setting up with way too much friction is pilot error = bouncy bouncy. But, the bounciness of the rope makes a huge difference, especially when the pilot is not dialing it in smooth as silk.

Frightening, that was. Worst case of "bouncy bouncy" I've ever seen, in combo with the worst rope schred I've ever seen from a rappel. Scary movies. And, all that on an NFPA certified static rope from New England. Crazy. Of course, we were a bit out of it too...(that whole, not having any water thing for nearly a day when its hot out...).

Smooth rappel with no stopping or rapid starting and stopping = no bouncy. Wouldn't matter if the rope had 3 or 9% enlongation.

Funny, but, I notice lack of smooth use of a belay/rappel device in the climbing gym more than anywhere. You get a lighter person lowering a heavier person, if they aren't smooth with the lower, then, they tend to fly up off the floor. Quite common. Gym ropes tend to be fairly stiff...


Part of it is dailing in what you need for friction, personally. And, that take a bit of time/experience. Young males especially seem to find the bounds of "not enough friction" fairly quickly, sometimes with bad results...(!)

Best to have a bit of bouncy bouncy and rig to err on the side of caution, to be sure...

Cheers!

[hank moon]

note: smoothness also depends on rope condition: wet/dry/sandy/muddy, etc.

[canyoncaver]

A couple of thoughts:

Mammut may sell a rope that says "caving" on it, but that doesn't mean it's good for caving. If it's bouncy, it's not good caving rope. Most cavers (U.S.) prefer PMI, Cancord, and Bluewater. Sterling, Highline, etc. don't really seem to measure up in the abrasion resistance category. In my opinion, the only real static ropes I've used are PMI, Cancord, and the the newfangled canyon ropes I've been using lately including Imlay, Canyonator, and CanyonPro. Everything else has too much bounce for my taste. Bounce causes rope wear on sharp edges. I agree with both Brian and Tom. It is all about technique, but bouncy rope makes bad technique worse.

I too have seen New England rope get shredded from light use. Don't use it. It doesn't hold up to normal wear and tear. A group of caver friends of mine call it Boat Rope, because that's what it was originally made for. It's probably fine for tying up your schooner, but I don't like hanging from it.

Also, to Brian's question, "Why use SRT in canyons when you use DRT for everything else?" (paraphrased)

This question clearly comes from a climbing perspective. From a caving perspective, the question makes more sense in reverse.

[hank moon]

Bouncy rope works fine for EURO caving, keeping in mind that most Euro cavers rig to avoid sharp edges and abrasion using rebelay technique. Bounce is fun and keeps forces down in case of rebelay failure. Of course, bouncy euro semi-static ropes totally SUCK for CP canyoneering and/or US-SRT (aka IRT).

New England makes a great rope, actually, and shares boat-rope roots with all of the other companies you mentioned. PMI is a BW spin-off, Highline is PMI spin-off, and so on. I like the fact that many of these companies have their roots in the ocean - the marine environment is by far the harshest proving ground for rope. Continuous soaking, salt, sun exposure, cyclic loading, crazy high forces, etc.

[Bo_Beck]

What I learn each day! I had always thought that what "Static", "Low Stretch" and "High Stretch" ropes did were to stretch "elongate" and then "rebound", and the person "load" would bounce as an effect? Last time I dropped one of my ropes, it just went "whop!!!" when it hit? It didn't bounce at all?????? I need to get out and test all my ropes again to see if they bounce! Think I'll head up to Zions (stop in Herkin for coffee first) to test 'em' out!

[canyoncaver]

Bo: I always figured they pronounced it Herkin just so it would rhyme with La Verkin.

Hank: New England may make a great rope, but I haven't seen it. The KMIII is definitely not it.

[ratagonia]

What I learn each day! I had always thought that what "Static", "Low Stretch" and "High Stretch" ropes did were to stretch "elongate" and then "rebound", and the person "load" would bounce as an effect? Last time I dropped one of my ropes, it just went "whop!!!" when it hit? It didn't bounce at all?????? I need to get out and test all my ropes again to see if they bounce! Think I'll head up to Zions (stop in Herkin for coffee first) to test 'em' out!

Silly Bo. Coffee in Herkin? Get REAL!

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Silly Bo. Coffee in Herkin? Get REAL!

Fer rills, come find out...

Perks Espresso & Smoothies
1120 W State St, Hurricane, UT 84737

[Bo_Beck]

Bo: I always figured they pronounced it Herkin just so it would rhyme with La Verkin.

Problem with this is that I believe it's La Verkin because they couldn't pronounce the spanish name "La Virgin". If they could have pronounced this, then Hurricane today would have been pronounced Heercun!


Hank: New England may make a great rope, but I haven't seen it. The KMIII is definitely not it.

We (Zion SAR) have been using KMIII's for several years now and they are the best we've used to date. When I first started on the team 14 years ago we used PMI Max Wear's initially, then went to EZ Bends. We also tried out the Petzl Vectors, but found that so far with the KMIII's there has been less sheath slippage and just the right amount of elongation as compared to what we used to use.

[canyoncaver]

Well, to each his own I suppose. Glad to hear that the KMIII's work well for something. Using them in caves, I have found that they are dangerously non-abrasion resistant. We get a lot more life out of PMI Pit rope (max-wear) The KMIII needs to be padded in places that the PMI wouldn't even bat an eye at.

[hank moon]

yah, it's that IRT thing again... :lol8:

[guaps]

For the canyons mentioned (add Pine Creek), the ideal set for a small group might be 2 x 120 footers and 1 x 200 footer. You might have a 200 foot retired climbing rope to use for the long raps in Behunin, and thus don't really need to buy a 200'er.
:

Question about this: I've been reading for the last few days trying to figure out the technique one would use to do a 165 ft rap (Behunin's biggest rap) with one 200 ft rope and two 120 ft ropes. My best guess is below, but can someone explain that to me?

To do double rope, I would need two 165 ft ropes. I don't see how you could do it otherwise.

To do single rope, my guess is you use a biner block on the 200 ft rope, then tie the two 120ft ropes together and then tie them to the biner block and use them to retrieve everything. Am I close?

I'm about to go buy my ropes, so I'm trying to figure out what to buy. Like you said ratagonia - I don't want to climb on my good climbing ropes after they have been used for this trip. Plus, the guys I'm doing this trip with are sharing the cost of the ropes, so I'll just buy new rope for this trip.

[oldno7]

Start with 2-200's.. They shorten up over time.

[ratagonia]

Be sure to check out this page, too:

http://imlaycanyongear.com/ropes2.php

Tom

[moab mark]

Be sure to check out this page, too:

http://imlaycanyongear.com/ropes2.php

Tom

When did you come out with the new site? Nice. Drove by your house today, see you fixed the headlight on your clean one owner.

[ratagonia]

When did you come out with the new site? Nice. Drove by your house today, see you fixed the headlight on your clean one owner.

Man, ya shoulda knocked on the door - I need the entertainment!

Well, the new site is far from finished, but I don't seem to be finishing it real quick so... Might as well let the cat out of the bag while it's still hissing and scratching.

Tom :moses:

[sarahlizzy]

Do the 8.0mm and the CanyonFire have the same core?

[ratagonia]

Do the 8.0mm and the CanyonFire have the same core?

Yes.

Tom