Questions about Orderville from a Noob

[daviskpjr]

[FONT=Verdana]I hold permit reservations to hike Orderville on July 10th with my family. This will be our first canyoneering experience. (No young kids, they are in their 20

[Scott P]

Should we plan on renting wetsuits for the cold water, or will the hot temperatures of July offset the chill of the water?

No. Forget about wetsuits there in July.


I have NPS permit reservations; can I pickup the permits one or two days before, or must I wait until the morning of our hike?

You can pick them up the day before the hike.


Elaina at NRMG suggested I should rent/bring gear (harness, biners, belay device) for all five members of our group to minimize delays at the obstacles. Do you agree, or could we get by sharing two or three sets of gear?

Others may disagree, but since there only a couple obstacles in Orderville, sharing wouldn't be so bad. If you were doing something like Pine Creek, it wouldn't be a good idea, but personally I would say it's OK with Orderville. I would guess that at least half of the people that do Orderville don't both with rappelling, but it can add a margin of safety and perhaps save a sprained (or even broken) ankle.


I expect that NRMG will include in my training what I should look for when inspecting anchors; should I expect acceptable anchors in Orderville? Is there particular gear (webbing, slings, etc.) I should bring as a contingency?

I always bring a few sling in every canyon I go to, but chances are you won't need them since dozens of people do the canyon a day. It wouldn't hurt to bring them and you might as well bring a couple.



Anyone planning to hike Orderville on July 10th?


I wish.

[Deathcricket]

Others may disagree, but since there only a couple obstacles in Orderville, sharing wouldn't be so bad. If you were doing something like Pine Creek, it wouldn't be a good idea, but personally I would say it's OK with Orderville. I would guess that at least half of the people that do Orderville don't both with rappelling, but it can add a margin of safety and perhaps save a sprained (or even broken) ankle.


Hopefully I don't get flamed too bad for saying this. But I would even go a step further and say just bring one single harness for emergencies. And by emergency I mean you run into some obstacle you can't climb down and the group could share. Bring 50 feet of webbing and you can handline all 3 obstacles. Here is a video of the hardest obstacle. The log they are jumping off of.. The first person can not jump and just hang off it, it's very easy to grab and a nice crack. Then the drop is only a foot to the water. I dropped in, checked the depth and then some people jumped. Other felt more comfortable handlining down on the other side.

Disclaimer: I don't know your group dynamics but as you can see it's not hard at all. :cool2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R7zufJPnWE


Edit: I found a real quick vid of the other obstacle. So now you know about 2/3 hehe...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrrxlQnqTdE&feature=related


Edit #3: Ok LoL, I found a video of the 3rd obstacle in my archives. I was more concentrating on my friend who fell in the mud, but there is a quick shot of the area so you can see what you're getting into.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6U08MnHxC8

[ratagonia]

Hopefully I don't get flamed too bad for saying this. But I would even go a step further and say just bring one single harness for emergencies. And by emergency I mean you run into some obstacle you can't climb down and the group could share. Bring 50 feet of webbing and you can handline all 3 obstacles. Here is a video of the hardest obstacle. The log they are jumping off of.. The first person can not jump and just hang off it, it's very easy to grab and a nice crack. Then the drop is only a foot to the water. I dropped in, checked the depth and then some people jumped. Other felt more comfortable handlining down on the other side.

Disclaimer: I don't know your group dynamics but as you can see it's not hard at all. :cool2:



:angryfire::angryfire::angryfire: Consider yourself flamed. Certainly, if you are in the "broken leg" demographic, why not? What's the worst that could happen? Of course, the pool changes depth and shape, and sometimes there might be rocks in there... but hey, what' life without takin' a few foolish chances. You wouldn't wanna be mistaken for an adult or anything! :scared:

Tom (just doin' my job) :moses:

[ratagonia]

No. Forget about wetsuits there in July.



You can pick them up the day before the hike.



Others may disagree, but since there only a couple obstacles in Orderville, sharing wouldn't be so bad. If you were doing something like Pine Creek, it wouldn't be a good idea, but personally I would say it's OK with Orderville. I would guess that at least half of the people that do Orderville don't both with rappelling, but it can add a margin of safety and perhaps save a sprained (or even broken) ankle.



I always bring a few sling in every canyon I go to, but chances are you won't need them since dozens of people do the canyon a day. It wouldn't hurt to bring them and you might as well bring a couple.



I wish.

I RARELY agree with Scott, but this is one of those occasions.

Then again, I think I rarely disagree with the Cricket of Death, but this is definitely one of THOSE occasions! :haha:

Tom :moses:

[Deathcricket]

:angryfire::angryfire::angryfire: Consider yourself flamed. Certainly, if you are in the "broken leg" demographic, why not? What's the worst that could happen? Of course, the pool changes depth and shape, and sometimes there might be rocks in there... but hey, what' life without takin' a few foolish chances. You wouldn't wanna be mistaken for an adult or anything! :scared:

Tom (just doin' my job) :moses:

I appreciate you doing your job and would think less of you otherwise. :nod:

The pool is not going to change shape and dynamics in the 5 mins I tested and scouted it for the group, hehe. I could conceivably miss a hidden boulder though so your point is valid. What about hand lining the other side then? I'm curious if you recommend people renting harnesses for a single easy downclimb of only 10-11 feet. I suspect you would say "what is easy for one person could be hard for another, so don't take chances". I'm going to lose this arguement so will shut up now in respect for my elders. :)

[Cirrus2000]

The first person can not jump and just hang off it, it's very easy to grab and a nice crack. Then the drop is only a foot to the water. I dropped in, checked the depth and then some people jumped. Other felt more comfortable handlining down on the other side.


:angryfire::angryfire::angryfire: Consider yourself flamed. Certainly, if you are in the "broken leg" demographic, why not? What's the worst that could happen? Of course, the pool changes depth and shape, and sometimes there might be rocks in there... but hey, what' life without takin' a few foolish chances. You wouldn't wanna be mistaken for an adult or anything! :scared:

Tom (just doin' my job) :moses:

Tom, I don't think he was advocating that anyone jump on their next trip through simply because he checked the depth on his last trip through. He dangled until he was within a foot of the water, then dropped in, and after checking the depth for everyone else, declared it safe. Are you saying that because he couldn't lower himself all the way into the water, that the short drop was dangerous?

Personally, I'd just take the handline, but I'm not much of a jumper, generally. Unless it's really hot.

[ratagonia]

Tom, I don't think he was advocating that anyone jump on their next trip through simply because he checked the depth on his last trip through. He dangled until he was within a foot of the water, then dropped in, and after checking the depth for everyone else, declared it safe. Are you saying that because he couldn't lower himself all the way into the water, that the short drop was dangerous?

Personally, I'd just take the handline, but I'm not much of a jumper, generally. Unless it's really hot.

Well, I'd like to back you guys up. Who are these people who are asking? Here is an anecdote for you:

- couple years ago, someone asked on The Group about doing the Subway, but they had no technical experience. A couple - Jack and Sarah. Described themselves as "strong hikers". I was due for a Subway, so we arranged to meet at the Mean Bean, 7 am (BITD, when it opened at 6:30). Five past 7 I stroll in. There is a very nice couple in the back chowing on a muffin and slurping coffee. Looked like strong hikers, for 70 year-olds! Uh oh, if that was Jack and Sarah, I was in trouble! Wasn't sure I wanted to introduce myself... so I grabbed my java and wandered back outside to reconsider... where a skinny, fit, 20-something couple introduced themselves as Jack and Sarah. Day saved!

Yes, most of the "kids" on Bogley are strong enough to handline The Guillotine, or to survive a fairly short drop into shallow water with an unknown bottom. But you don't know these people from squat. Are they 300 lbs? Are they elderly? - old people like me break a lot easier than you young kids. Do they have fully functioning and strong limbs? I've had clients on trips who were 20 something, skinny, looked fit, but were brainiacs and had little experience in the out-of-doors, and were very challenged by the easiest of downclimbs.

Jus sayin'. YES, for SOME PEOPLE, jumpin and hootin and hollerin is good clean fun. For others - Orderville has traditionally been the #1 place for backcountry injuries in Zion. Lots of jumpin into pools, lots of broken ankles. And I know YOU know that, Kev and DeathCricket, but these people may not.

So the advice is: be prepared to rappel. Yes, you can share gear. If it seems appropriate to you, you might decide to handline. You need at least two harnesses, because the awkward pool downclimb might require a meat anchor for some people. Do you know how to do a meat anchor?

You can also take a half-day class when in Zion which would prepare you, most likely, for Orderville and The Subway. If you have the time on vacation to do so, this would be better than one of you taking a class elsewhere. If you are starting from zero technical base, taking a class by yourself is not so useful. 4 eyes are better than 2. http://www.zionadventures.com

Tom :moses:

[Scott P]

I RARELY agree with Scott, but this is one of those occasions.



Seriously? "Rarely" in all CAPs even. Dang.

I actually thought we agree most of the time.

[Brian in SLC]

You can also take a half-day class when in Zion which would prepare you, most likely, for Orderville and The Subway. If you have the time on vacation to do so, this would be better than one of you taking a class elsewhere.

Perfect.

I've never understood folks who certify to scuba dive in an indoor swimming pool.

Tom's solution works on a number of fronts. Get to do another technical canyon. Whole group gets experience. Then, apply those skills to something fab like Orderville, a really great canyon.

Last time I did it, we played on one of the drops by upclimbing and down climbing the waterfall to the climber's left of the rappel/downclimb. Really fun, and, amazing what you can figure out (way easier than it looked).

Fun place to play. Start early, take your time.

Cheers.

[ratagonia]

Then the drop is only a foot to the water. I dropped in, checked the depth and then some people jumped. Other felt more comfortable handlining down on the other side.

Disclaimer: I don't know your group dynamics but as you can see it's not hard at all.

The water in Orderville is very murky. Yes, the waterfall can be downclimbed sometimes, by some people. You dropped "only" a foot into the water. What was under the water? Bad landing = broken ankle. I've seen it happen with a lot LESS of a drop.

"I don't know your group dynamics but as you can see it's not hard at all."

Perhaps you meant "skill level", "fitness level", "brittleness index", etc. in fact it would have been more accurate to say "I don't know anything about your group, but... if you are young foolish kids who think they are indestructible, and conditions are exactly as we found them, and you are lucky like we were and and and and... they it's not hard at all".

See. I ENJOY doing MY job. Thank you for the opportunity to pontificate.

Tom :moses:

[Cirrus2000]

All very true. Just had to rally behind my homey Jake. :haha:

Personally, I'd agree with the recommendation of a two harness minimum. And don't forget helmets!

I also agree that a half-day local class would be an excellent idea, and more useful than a class somewhere else.

I'm a big fan of the Zion Adventure Company folks. I hear they have good people working there, and do excellent instruction...

But another option is Zion Rock and Mountain Guides, who also have a canyoneering intro class available: http://www.zionrockguides.com/zrmg/Canyoneering/Instruction/canyonquickstartmain.html

[moab mark]

If I was coming from back East and if I was pretty active and healthy and if I had a little coin to spend and if Ponderosa is still guiding Englestead, I know a lot of iffs, but I would hire them to take me down Englestead and then let them hike back up Orderville and then I would continue down Orderville. Now that would be a great first time canyoneering adventure.



Mark

[ratagonia]

If I was coming from back East and if I was pretty active and healthy and if I had a little coin to spend and if Ponderosa is still guiding Englestead, I know a lot of iffs, but I would hire them to take me down Englestead and then let them hike back up Orderville and then I would continue down Orderville. Now that would be a great first time canyoneering adventure.

Mark

I'm not sure the Ponderosa was EVER foolish enough to actually guide Engelstead. Birch they guide quite often, and it is much more guidable. Engelstead -= YIKES!!!!

Also, the BLM revoked Ponderosa's "good 'ol' boy" permit a couple years ago. They no longer have permission to do anything they feel like. Guiding Engelstead requires an unobtainable guiding permit from Zion National Park. Not sure it would be a good idea to use a guide service that cuts corners.

Tom :moses:

[moab mark]

They took my neighbors family either last year or the year before. They did not tell them the name just that it started with a 300' rappel. Dave said they did a great job. 3 couples. They then went out the bottom with the guides going up. Ponderosa then picked them up at the shuttle.

Mark

[moab mark]

If Englestead isn't possible then hire Ponderosa or ZACS to take you down birch and then out the bottom. Get to see a beautiful canyon and learn the ropes of canyoneering at the same time. We take the scouts down birch and out the bottom every year. It is a long day but doable.

Mark

[ratagonia]

If Englestead isn't possible then hire Ponderosa or ZACS to take you down birch and then out the bottom. Get to see a beautiful canyon and learn the ropes of canyoneering at the same time. We take the scouts down birch and out the bottom every year. It is a long day but doable.

Mark

Our BLM permit for Birch Hollow does not allow us to leave clients to exit on their own. Besides, we do enough stuff in Birch that it takes all day.

Well, actually, I don't know that. I know that our 'guiding' permit in Zion Park, which allows us to guide the Narrows up to Orderville, does not allow us OR the clients to go past that point. Perhaps it is a condition of our permit, or of our insurance company, or just company policy, but I could not leave people in the wilderness. Ponderosa is a bit looser (obviously).

(and yours justs pokings mes withs thats ZACs, rights?)

T

[daviskpjr]

Thanks for the replies. I'd love to spend another day canyoneering but we have other plans. I'm intrigued by the idea of a guided drop down Birch into Orderville if I could continue down Orderville into the Narrows. Based on a trip report I reviewed that's probably a 9-hr trip or longer... need to run that by the group.

As to the dynamics or skill level of my group, my son, daughter and daughter-in-law (to be) are in their early twenties with varying degrees of athleticism, and with a desire to do this hike they are putting forth the effort to prepare. My wife on the other hand will likely not join us for the hike. She may hike up the Narrows a ways to hopefully meet us on our way out. The girls have practically no hiking or climbing experience other than the training class they took. In addition to the training class my son has outdoor off-piste experience snowboarding. I'm 47, in good physical condition, some hiking and climbing experience, much off-piste skiing and snowboarding experience, and generally smart enough not to take uncalculated risks, like jumping into a pool of murky water uncertain of its depth.

[PirateQueen]

Always better to be safe than sorry. Things can change in an instant. Birch Canyon is jaw dropping beautiful and fun. The guides at ZAC are top notch and would insure that your group was safe and came away with a memory that would last a life time. A gym will not prepare you for Zion. I'm just sayin.... :mrgreen:

[moab mark]

Thanks for the replies. I'd love to spend another day canyoneering but we have other plans. I'm intrigued by the idea of a guided drop down Birch into Orderville if I could continue down Orderville into the Narrows. Based on a trip report I reviewed that's probably a 9-hr trip or longer... need to run that by the group.



If you can get one of the guide companies to guide you with the stipulation that you do not want to return with them it would be an experience your family will not forget.:nod:

With 8 or 9 scouts and 3 leaders movin out we go thru in about 9 hours. But I bring a big whip.

If the guides will take you in on Tom's ATV route you miss the first rappel (not missing anything) and saves alot of time.

[jman]

If the guides will take you in on Tom's ATV route you miss the first rappel (not missing anything) and saves alot of time.

I always do it this way when doing Birch.

[nonot]

Did Orderville about a week ago, only had to rappel once at the waterfall/chockstone. It looked to be a difficult downclimb, there was a log jammed below the chockstone that would make it easy to get snagged. Additionally the water certainly was not as deep as in the video above, I believe that it was about waist deep, maybe chest deep. Our group rapped it off a meat anchor because a group of scouts was rapping off of rope tied with a bowline with one or two harnesses for a group of 12 (very slow) and we wanted to pass them. They let the last one play though on their rope.

[ratagonia]

Always better to be safe than sorry. Things can change in an instant. Birch Canyon is jaw dropping beautiful and fun. The guides at ZAC are top notch and would insure that your group was safe and came away with a memory that would last a life time. A gym will not prepare you for Zion. I'm just sayin.... :mrgreen:

And how is that leg of your's healing up?

Tom :moses:

[seb42]

Took a group of six (6) through Orderville last Thursday. Compared w[ith going through in June of '08 there were no required swims this time. The water temp was actually refreshing. Actually saw people coming up canyon almost to The Guillotine obstacle. We did it in 7.5 hrs (three adults, 17, and two 13 yr olds).

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[oldno7]

Went through with a group today, be advised---there was a huge swarm of bee's about a 1/4 mile above the guillotine. There were many and all that I saw were flying. Don't know if these are the Africanized ones or not, they did not sting anyone in our group. I did spot them early and had everyone hurry through the area.

[daviskpjr]

Just learned about the flash flood this past weekend and it reminded me to post a follow-up on my trip from July 10th. I heeded the advice posted here and hired a guide to take us through Birch. I was prepared to continue the hike down Orderville, but the NWS called for moderate risk of flash floods so we hiked out to the Orderville trailhead with the guide instead. No regrets. Birch was a great adventure for my family and me. Hopefully I'll be able to return another time and experience more of Zion

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[ratagonia]

Just learned about the flash flood this past weekend and it reminded me to post a follow-up on my trip from July 10th. I heeded the advice posted here and hired a guide to take us through Birch. I was prepared to continue the hike down Orderville, but the NWS called for moderate risk of flash floods so we hiked out to the Orderville trailhead with the guide instead. No regrets. Birch was a great adventure for my family and me. Hopefully I'll be able to return another time and experience more of Zion


Was that Tyler as your guide???

Tom

[daviskpjr]

Isaac from Zion Ponderosa guided us.

Kip

[taatmk]

Should we plan on renting wetsuits for the cold water, or will the hot temperatures of July offset the chill of the water?
I have NPS permit reservations; can I pickup the permits one or two days before, or must I wait until the morning of our hike?
Elaina at NRMG suggested I should rent/bring gear (harness, biners, belay device) for all five members of our group to minimize delays at the obstacles. Do you agree, or could we get by sharing two or three sets of gear?
I expect that NRMG will include in my training what I should look for when inspecting anchors; should I expect acceptable anchors in Orderville? Is there particular gear (webbing, slings, etc.) I should bring as a contingency?
Anyone planning to hike Orderville on July 10th?
Thanks in advance for your responses.


I have done Orderville once before, after having completed Birch Hollow. We went down and out Orderville. Doing it in July, I would not think that you would need any wetsuits, but that would depend upon the finickiness of the group.

As others have mentioned, the summer is a busy time for the Narrows and for Orderville. I would pick them up the day before.

Since we were coming down from Birch Hollow, we ALL had harnesses. But I would think that sharing would work fine.

There are not many webbing/anchor points for Orderville. I always carry some webbing for use on any hike if needed.

I hope to get down to Zion in August.

[ratagonia]

Isaac from Zion Ponderosa guided us.

Kip

Cool.

I should point out that my earlier comment about our (ZAC) permit not allowing us to depart from clients in a Wilderness setting is part of our Zion National Park (guided hiking) permit. I have no knowledge as to the permit restrictions on the BLM land east of the Park where Birch Hollow is, and want to make it clear that, if I did so, impugning that other guides were violating their permit obligations was not within the realm of what I know to be true or untrue, and thus inappropriate.

But Birch was enough, right? Nice canyon, eh? I can tell you, it is a LONG way from Birch out, down Orderville.

Tom :moses:

[Rudyo]

I just read the thread...great info on Orderville, especially for someone like me that hasn't done it.
Can someone clarify though the shuttle and approach to it? We will probably do the drive ourselves and then retrieve the vehicle later (yeah we are sort of cheap these days... :crazy:)
The thread mentions "Tom's ATV route"...or was that for Birch only? I may have misread or misunderstood that part. Or is that referring to the trail past the parking lot that some guides say can be traversed with a 4x4 vehicle for up to 2 miles?
Has that been doable recently or maybe it is in rough shape with the recent weather.

Look like a great hike!

[ratagonia]

I just read the thread...great info on Orderville, especially for someone like me that hasn't done it.
Can someone clarify though the shuttle and approach to it? We will probably do the drive ourselves and then retrieve the vehicle later (yeah we are sort of cheap these days... :crazy:)
The thread mentions "Tom's ATV route"...or was that for Birch only? I may have misread or misunderstood that part. Or is that referring to the trail past the parking lot that some guides say can be traversed with a 4x4 vehicle for up to 2 miles?
Has that been doable recently or maybe it is in rough shape with the recent weather.

Look like a great hike!

Yes, the "Tom's ATV Route" is the walking route into Birch Hollow as detailed in the Book.

A normal place to start Orderville is from the corral area just off the North Fork road, with signs supplied by the BLM, and a gate on the "Jeep Trail" down to the canyon itself. This is called "The Corral", or "The Orderville Corral". If doing Orderville, it is not so very onerous to start here, and it sure makes the shuttle easier at the end of the day.

The "Jeep Trail" really has only one or two bad spots, but they are right near the top. The worst spot is a rocky climb up boulders, with a fall-off into a deep rut on the right, just wide enough for my station wagon. Did make it in my high-clearance, big-tire 2WD Pathfinder, but I really cannot recommend it for anything but a 4WD big-tire capable vehicle. Subarus need not apply. Having two capable vehicles allows you to drive to the "End of the Road", saving about an hour of downhill walking.

If you have only ONE capable vehicle, you could pack everyone in there and drive them to the End of the Road, then have your Steve-Jackson_lookalike-contest-winner drive the vehicle up to the Corral, and run back and catch up.

Getting an early start for Orderville is a really good idea. These road closures this year might make that difficult.

Tom :moses: