Rescue in Zero Gravity

[Jaun_Jablome]

From Mark Rosen

A boy scout got stuck in Zero G last Wednesday. This is what I have learned from the group leader. I relate the story so that we can learn from the experience and not to condemn anyone involved. I've had members of groups I have led become stuck and I'm not trying to throw stones but would like to use the experience to start a discussion of ideas on how to free someone that is stuck. I know an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure but lets just assume they are stuck now what do you do?

First, the story as related to me. I was not there:

"On Wednesday June 16, 2010 a group of Venture Scouts hiked the canyon known as Zero Gravity (aka Little Iron Wash) in the San Rafael Swell. All went well until the exit. We had one large boy (estimated weight is about 265

[jman]

Woah, thanks for posting this.

[ratagonia]

And... when leading a group of boy scouts or equivalent, bring a rope whether the canyon requires it or not. Remember the gruesome death in Knotted Rope a couple years ago? Hard to do a rescue without any gear. A big group can carry gear.

2 cents...

Tom :moses:

[Spidey]

And... when leading a group of boy scouts or equivalent, bring a rope whether the canyon requires it or not. Remember the gruesome death in Knotted Rope a couple years ago? Hard to do a rescue without any gear. A big group can carry gear.

2 cents...

Tom :moses:

X2

[Iceaxe]

How the canyon got it's name should be a warning.....


How did Zero Gravity get it's name? The first time we canyoneered the slot I dropped through the exit bombay a little too early and became wedged between the canyon walls. I was stuck at my chest, but my feet were hanging down into space about 10-feet above the ground. I was suspended in air and looked like Wily E. Coyote running in space, or zero gravity. After my friends finished laughing and making fun of my predicament they helped me escape the trap.

[UtahAdventureGuide]

All I'm going to say is that scout leader used poor judgment that put the lives of the group at risk. He should be removed from that position. WTF are scouts doing in that canyon, or any canyon for that matter.

[stefan]

From Mark Rosen

A boy scout got stuck in Zero G last Wednesday. This is what I have learned from the group leader ...

it is poor forum etiquette to post something, especially an account posted by an individual, from one forum to another without the permission of the original poster.

[Deathcricket]

In hind sight, he was too large to attempt this canyon but I thought he could do it and that it would be a great experience for him – conquer a difficult canyon. I still think it turned out well but not in the way I first expected. "

:roflol::roflol::roflol:

Poor choice of wording IMO.

Great story though, I almost thought it was fake reading about "human pyramids" and such. Would love to see some pics.

[Bo_Beck]

I am glad you got him out without significant injury. Never have been there, but trying to imagine the scenario leads me to a thought that maybe you tried? You suggested that you were given a "4:1" MA? I then read that this didn't work? There must've been an anchor above the boy? Anyway I get the feeling that this was a pre-rigged "Aztec" or 4x5? Maybe by using a 5' sling "horseshoe" under the boys armpits with the connection to the MA in front of his face, swapping the MA so that it was a 5:1 with an upward pull by you (pulling force upcanyon or up-chimney) and being certain you have a progress ratchet capturing any progress, you could have also extended the pulling with some webbing to the folks above? Just a thought and maybe way off track, or maybe even tried? Anyway...glad all worked out!

[Spidey]

All I'm going to say is that scout leader used poor judgment that put the lives of the group at risk. He should be removed from that position. WTF are scouts doing in that canyon, or any canyon for that matter.
I've taken my scouts through that canyon, as well as the laurels from our ward. I've also taken our scouts and Laurels through Chop rock. Not to mention I have taken the scouts through Heaps, Full Imlay, Several Powell canyons Etc. Etc. Maybe that's why I don't see the problem should he have been better prepared of course. I'm not following your logic on this.

[Don]

I've taken my scouts through that canyon, as well as the laurels from our ward. I've also taken our scouts and Laurels through Chop rock. Not to mention I have taken the scouts through Heaps, Full Imlay, Several Powell canyons Etc. Etc. Maybe that's why I don't see the problem should he have been better prepared of course. I'm not following your logic on this.

I think it's valid to assume that most scout masters don't have your technical skill, nor access to your technical gear. Hell, around here they're barely volunteers, being told by the church that you are the new scout master is what we, in the army, would call being 'vollen-told'. As in 'thanks, you just volunteered to clear this mine field now get your ass out there'. A guy assigned to the scouts might have less enthusiasm (god only knows his skill level) than a volunteer who chooses to get involved.

[Spidey]

I think it's valid to assume that most scout masters don't have your technical skill, nor access to your technical gear. Hell, around here they're barely volunteers, being told by the church that you are the new scout master is what we, in the army, would call being 'vollen-told'. As in 'thanks, you just volunteered to clear this mine field now get your ass out there'. A guy assigned to the scouts might have less enthusiasm (god only knows his skill level) than a volunteer who chooses to get involved.
Fair enough, I still don't think the assessment of why would anyone take scouts into any canyon is fair or accurate assessment. Was he prepared enough with gear or experience obviously not. This is a huge problem around here in provo, I run into scout leaders regularly lately, that have been through an 8 hour or so training course here locally and are being told go ahead your ready to take boy scouts canyoneering. Every single one that I have asked questions of has revealed that they have no business taking themselves through a canyon let alone boys, as a quasi guide. Still the assertion that no one should be taking boys through any canyon is a very big stretch.

[Scott Card]

Still the assertion that no one should be taking boys through any canyon is a very big stretch.

X2

Canyoneering is a fantastic activity for the 16-18 year old Venture Scouts. I have taken many, many Ventures through canyons. Not all canyons are created equally. Not all leaders are created equally. It is the leaders that need training and experience and wisdom.

I do remember when Shane showed us this little gem, he asked us what we thought the rating should be. I remember our discussion that a straight 3 would be accurate except for the bombay. We discussed that a 4 would be too much but a 3R or 3PG-13 would be appropriate. The bombay is, or can be a significant challenge depending on body size, training, experience and gear, to name a few.

[maverickmt]

We had a canyoneer stuck in the same canyon last month - it was pretty terrifying (it was my old man.) We we are all wearing harnesses, and we were able to jam him back up the final section and then use the 'bomb bay' method. Took us about 45 minutes.

[Conner810]

you don't really sound very thankful that we came to your rescue. Oh and the guy who wrote this did not do any work to get the kid out. My friend did all the work!! Don't write what didn't happen! I should know cause i was the one who got the rest of your kids out who ascended!!

[janech]

you don't really sound very thankful that we came to your rescue. Oh and the guy who wrote this did not do any work to get the kid out. My friend did all the work!! Don't write what didn't happen! I should know cause i was the one who got the rest of your kids out who ascended!!

*high five* And good job on getting those guys out!

[Deathcricket]

you don't really sound very thankful that we came to your rescue. Oh and the guy who wrote this did not do any work to get the kid out. My friend did all the work!! Don't write what didn't happen! I should know cause i was the one who got the rest of your kids out who ascended!!

I think Juan is telling the story he heard 2nd hand. He isn't the guy that was there. Which I am forced to agree with Stefan is in poor taste not having permission. I for one, would love to hear your side of it though. Set the record straight? But maybe this is one of those threads we should let die, unless the actual people involved want to talk about it. Tough call.

[jb56chevy]

I was a bit surprised to find this account posted here. I gave it to someone upon request to use a a training tool for others. I am happy to be an example (even if it is of what not to do). the description is intentionally clinical as I wanted to keep emotion out and just state the facts as I saw them so this could be a useful training tool. it is here now so hopefully people can learn from it.

First and foremost:
To the crew of S&R and Sheriffs I am truly greatful. They got our boy out, got the boys from upcanyon out, got the group behind us out. i do not know what we would've done if they had not showed up. You were awesome. Thank you.

The group behind us was wonderful as well. They helped as much as they could with out stuck boy and helped get the rest of the boys out with them.

Clearly, I made some errors in judgement and execution. I admit it, I will own those mistakes.

on this trip we did not plan on doing any technical canyons as i have neither the gear nor the experience to do them safely and successfully. I do have enough experience to lead a group in places like Ding/Dang, Oderville, and (I thought) Zero G but I should have had another leader with experience in this area.
I overestimated our boy's ability to to the canyon. I knew the exit would be a tough spot, but I honestly thought he cold do it. Part of my role as a scout leader is to challenge these boys, give them tough things to try. they benefit when they succeed. I wanted them to gain something from this trip.
I was unable to think clearly enough early enough to come up wth another solution...I did not even think of trying to pull him straight out. I think I could've got in position using the webbing and pulled but I am just not sure how. I think the soap the EMT brought helped tremendously. Without it I am not sure our boy would've popped out so easily.
I should've brought more gear. we had a few lengths of webbing for hand lines and ashort rope. We needed more when our boy got stuck.
hopefully others can learn from this experience and avoid another S&R call in this canyon.

[janech]

I was in the group behind the scouts and just to clarify, we got ourselves out of the canyon. We had four of our people up on top who threw a rope down so that we could ascend out. We did not use any of Search and Rescue's gear. The reason we were in the canyon so long is because Search and Rescue was going to use our rope, which they never did, and told us not to hold off using it in case they needed it.

[Scott Card]

I was a bit surprised to find this account posted here. I gave it to someone upon request to use a a training tool for others. I am happy to be an example (even if it is of what not to do). the description is intentionally clinical as I wanted to keep emotion out and just state the facts as I saw them so this could be a useful training tool. it is here now so hopefully people can learn from it.

First and foremost:
To the crew of S&R and Sheriffs I am truly greatful. They got our boy out, got the boys from upcanyon out, got the group behind us out. i do not know what we would've done if they had not showed up. You were awesome. Thank you.

The group behind us was wonderful as well. They helped as much as they could with out stuck boy and helped get the rest of the boys out with them.

Clearly, I made some errors in judgement and execution. I admit it, I will own those mistakes.

on this trip we did not plan on doing any technical canyons as i have neither the gear nor the experience to do them safely and successfully. I do have enough experience to lead a group in places like Ding/Dang, Oderville, and (I thought) Zero G but I should have had another leader with experience in this area.
I overestimated our boy's ability to to the canyon. I knew the exit would be a tough spot, but I honestly thought he cold do it. Part of my role as a scout leader is to challenge these boys, give them tough things to try. they benefit when they succeed. I wanted them to gain something from this trip.
I was unable to think clearly enough early enough to come up wth another solution...I did not even think of trying to pull him straight out. I think I could've got in position using the webbing and pulled but I am just not sure how. I think the soap the EMT brought helped tremendously. Without it I am not sure our boy would've popped out so easily.
I should've brought more gear. we had a few lengths of webbing for hand lines and ashort rope. We needed more when our boy got stuck.
hopefully others can learn from this experience and avoid another S&R call in this canyon.

Thanks for sharing. Must have been a very difficult experience for all of you involved. I am glad no one was seriously hurt.

[ratagonia]

I was a bit surprised to find this account posted here. I gave it to someone upon request to use a a training tool for others. I am happy to be an example (even if it is of what not to do). the description is intentionally clinical as I wanted to keep emotion out and just state the facts as I saw them so this could be a useful training tool. it is here now so hopefully people can learn from it.

First and foremost:
To the crew of S&R and Sheriffs I am truly greatful. They got our boy out, got the boys from upcanyon out, got the group behind us out. i do not know what we would've done if they had not showed up. You were awesome. Thank you.

The group behind us was wonderful as well. They helped as much as they could with out stuck boy and helped get the rest of the boys out with them.

Clearly, I made some errors in judgement and execution. I admit it, I will own those mistakes.

on this trip we did not plan on doing any technical canyons as i have neither the gear nor the experience to do them safely and successfully. I do have enough experience to lead a group in places like Ding/Dang, Oderville, and (I thought) Zero G but I should have had another leader with experience in this area.
I overestimated our boy's ability to to the canyon. I knew the exit would be a tough spot, but I honestly thought he cold do it. Part of my role as a scout leader is to challenge these boys, give them tough things to try. they benefit when they succeed. I wanted them to gain something from this trip.
I was unable to think clearly enough early enough to come up wth another solution...I did not even think of trying to pull him straight out. I think I could've got in position using the webbing and pulled but I am just not sure how. I think the soap the EMT brought helped tremendously. Without it I am not sure our boy would've popped out so easily.
I should've brought more gear. we had a few lengths of webbing for hand lines and ashort rope. We needed more when our boy got stuck.
hopefully others can learn from this experience and avoid another S&R call in this canyon.

Thank you JB 56 Chevy. We are grateful that you chose to share your story. It is indeed a good training tale for many different persons.

It was not the canyon.

Ding/Dang, Orderville, The Subway and ZeroG are all basically at the same technicality level. It's not the canyon, it's the leader. If the leader does not have the technical skills to execute a rescue/escape "if something goes wrong", then the leader does not have the technical skills to lead youth into that canyon. You do not have those skills - thus you should not lead youth into technical canyons, unless you get some training and get some skills. This INCLUDES canyons that you said you are up for leading - Orderville, Subway and Ding/Dang specifically.

If you have led these canyons before and nothing went wrong, then I suggest Fortune previously smiled upon you. But Fortune is whimsical, and counting on Fortune's smile is not a good long-term strategy. Prior performance is no guarantee of future returns.

Hopefully you have learned not to take youth down technical canyons. "Technical Canyons" in this sense means places where a rescue would be technical. I consider Ding/Dang to be technical.

Or, go get some training. There is plenty available, with a thread recently here on Bogley/Canyoneering. Or check out this Yahoo Group for Youth Leaders:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bsacanyoneers/?yguid=261401300

Tom (whose job is to be a meanie here on Bogley/Canyoneering) :moses:

[nat]

Thank you JB 56 Chevy. We are grateful that you chose to share your story. It is indeed a good training tale for many different persons.

It was not the canyon.

Ding/Dang, Orderville, The Subway and ZeroG are all basically at the same technicality level. It's not the canyon, it's the leader. If the leader does not have the technical skills to execute a rescue/escape "if something goes wrong", then the leader does not have the technical skills to lead youth into that canyon. You do not have those skills - thus you should not lead youth into technical canyons, unless you get some training and get some skills. This INCLUDES canyons that you said you are up for leading - Orderville, Subway and Ding/Dang specifically.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bsacanyoneers/?yguid=261401300

Tom (whose job is to be a meanie here on Bogley/Canyoneering) :moses:

I have to disagree. I don't think there is anything in Ding and Dang (or Orderville for that matter) that is anywhere close to being as serious or potentially problematic as the chockstone in Zero-G. Just a couple of open, easy to belay, wide 15 foot drops. The bombay/tight nature of the chockstone in Zero-G requires a lot more care, and experience, to do or lead safely.

Nat

[Iceaxe]

I also have to disagree with Tom....

I'd like to point out that sometimes things just happen that are beyond your control, skills or level of preparedness... no matter what your skill level is or how prepared you are.... If you think you are always in control you are kidding yourself....

I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. -Ecclesiastes 9:11

And thanks for sharing.... I really enjoy learning from these things.... :popcorn:

[canyonguru]

No affence but you just don't take fatties down SLOT canyons. Their called SLOT canyons for a reason. I always assess the condition of the boys before i take anyone down a canyon or a hike or anything for that matter. I understand that this could be a great thing for the kids self image but you have to take into considaration the safty of not only that boy and the potential rist he is to the rest of the boys if nothing goes wrong but also the rist if something does go wrong. Good lesson for all of us, i am very glad everything turned out ok. I don't know zero g but i would love to see a pic of what this choke stone looks like.

[Iceaxe]

Size is not the issue when it comes to Zero-G and the chokestone is not the problem.... the deal is bigger canyoneers have to go over the top of a chokestone and drop through a bomb bay.... the problem is when bigger canyoneers try and drop through the bombbay too early and become wedged....


http://www.bogley.com/forum/files/bombbay1.jpg

[jb56chevy]

Thank you JB 56 Chevy. We are grateful that you chose to share your story. It is indeed a good training tale for many different persons.

It was not the canyon.

Ding/Dang, Orderville, The Subway and ZeroG are all basically at the same technicality level. It's not the canyon, it's the leader. If the leader does not have the technical skills to execute a rescue/escape "if something goes wrong", then the leader does not have the technical skills to lead youth into that canyon. You do not have those skills - thus you should not lead youth into technical canyons, unless you get some training and get some skills. This INCLUDES canyons that you said you are up for leading - Orderville, Subway and Ding/Dang specifically.

If you have led these canyons before and nothing went wrong, then I suggest Fortune previously smiled upon you. But Fortune is whimsical, and counting on Fortune's smile is not a good long-term strategy. Prior performance is no guarantee of future returns.

Hopefully you have learned not to take youth down technical canyons. "Technical Canyons" in this sense means places where a rescue would be technical. I consider Ding/Dang to be technical.

Or, go get some training. There is plenty available, with a thread recently here on Bogley/Canyoneering. Or check out this Yahoo Group for Youth Leaders:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bsacanyoneers/?yguid=261401300

Tom (whose job is to be a meanie here on Bogley/Canyoneering) :moses:

point on training taken. I have looked at the link and am in the process of getting those skills and gear. although I think this trip really hinged on me not being selective enough on the canyons we did for this boy. I had done the zero G before and had honestly forgotten how tight it really is at the exit. I did evaluate all the boys and thought he could fit and do this - this was not just an ego boost for me or for him. clearly my evaluation was wrong.

Canyonguru:
I found a link on youtube of Zero G...the exit is at 5:20

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbGWyfUipwE

BTW, i dropped a helmet cam in the pool just after the jumping rocks. if it turns up, my address is on it...I would like it back. I will try to retrieve it later this year.

[jman]

canyonguru,

Here's some pics for ya:




(This is our friend Nick, the same guy that Shane would know from his beta on Granary Canyon in Moab).

[rcwild]

point on training taken. I have looked at the link and am in the process of getting those skills and gear.

Tom is referring you to a Yahoo group that has picked up fewer than 20 members since it started in April 2009 and only a couple of those members are familiar with BSA training requirements and policies.

If you are looking for canyons suitable for Scout trips, you can get all the suggestions and information you need right here on Bogley. If you are looking for training opportunities for Scout leaders, talk to your council's Climbing Committee Chairman, Brandt Jones.

[Scott Card]

I don't think there is anything in Ding and Dang (or Orderville for that matter) that is anywhere close to being as serious or potentially problematic as the chockstone in Zero-G. Just a couple of open, easy to belay, wide 15 foot drops. The bombay/tight nature of the chockstone in Zero-G requires a lot more care, and experience, to do or lead safely.

Nat Agreed. Having just taken a group of Venture Scouts through there, the feel, the intensity and skill necessary is quite dramatically different for that last couple of hundred feet of that canyon let alone for Orderville or Ding and Dang. That last section is very hard physically and mentally for those who have not done this stuff before. I am not aware of another horizontal rap I have ever had to do in any other canyon. In case I didn't mention, I ain't one who fits in the crack before the chock stone. It still kinda freaks me out to hook in, stem out about 10 feet and then drop and swing back into the slot in some sort of controlled crash with spotters and the canyon walls. To do a Zip line requires a climbing gun to move easlily back and forth, up and down through the slot and someone who knows rope work, preferably the same person. Did I mention I really like having Spidey along. In our case I stayed up high and at the last rap/down climb and brought up the rear. Spidey moved all over the place setting up the whole system. Then he went up high and assisted at the Zip line so in essence there were two of us above the bombay to take care of whatever may happen.

Had I been the only leader it would have required me to have attached the rope to the chock stone, horizontally rapped through the bombay, down climbed the v-crack into the pool, swam with the zipline rope to the tree, anchored and tensioned the rope, swam back and try to instruct the kids from below. There is no way I would or could have upclimbed that bombay. Not a good idea since no qualified leader would have been above the kids to assist in case of problems or to have checked the hookup at the zipline.

As I have said before, when Shane asked us Mapleton Boys about the rating, an R seemed appropriate for that spot. Not all Class 3 canyons are created equally and that spot still warrants an "R" rating. My buddy who I took through Zion last year (the Venture Scout Leader we took through Zero G) got physically worked in Zero G. He mentioned just how hard that section was. He went too low and had to grunt his way back up. I spoke with him this morning and he mentioned again the difficulty of that last fifty feet of the canyon. For most people, that first time stemming is quite terrifying. To see a void below and the possibility of getting stuck just isn't mentally exciting for most. Also, the drop of faith with a little sling and biner onto a skinny rope had a few boys a bit rattled too. All in all, Zero G is a blast until it gets serious for the last 50 feet. That last 50 feet is unlike (and more difficult) than any Class 3 Zion Canyon or most other class 3 canyons I have done. Just sayin.

[Scott Card]

No affence but you just don't take fatties down SLOT canyons. Generally agree but in my case last week, the biggest, most out of shape kid did not pose any problems. He stemmed as instructed and did great. Our biggest problem was with the most arrogant kid who mentally melted at the chockstone. He just wouldn't listen and kept going too low then had to be helped back up, wouldn't move out of sheer fear, etc.

[canyonguru]

I agree with all of the above you do have to evaluate all points of the kids metaly and physicaly. i hate to admit this but those of u who have done The Maze in Red Rock know that the last drop is 190ft and the start of the drop is on a chock stone that is only about 1ft tall with a complete undercut. The other problem is that the canyon walls are 12 to 14'' wide at this point and to fit through you have to lean out at least 3 ft past the choke stone to fit. Well two weeks ago i got stuck with me feet hanging 190ft off the ground i could not move at all. i had to let go of my right hand and swing it around my sholder and grab onto the anchor and pull my self up. It was very hard and a little nerve racking so i understand what its like getting stuck and its no fun. I guess the moral of the story goes big guys do make it hard to fit through tight spaces but it all comes down to techique and exsperience.

Like most of you have said previously if you plan on leading a group regardless of who they are , scouts or otherwise, you must be prepard to rescue them in any sitsuation.

here's a pic of the las drop in The Maze just for reference.
35512

[Iceaxe]

Actually.... the biggest problem with Zero-G is fat guys thinking they can fit down the rabbit hole.... :lol8:


Ten Cool Things About Having a Beer Belly

10 - Doubles as a convenient TV tray for nachos and beer.

9 - 96% less likely to be pestered by annoying sorority girls.

8 - Great way to meet cute female cardiologists.

7 - You no longer feel like an outcast at the bowling alley.

6 - Small penis? Out of sight, out of mind!

5 - Instant 'street cred' in biker bars worldwide.

4 - Playground pecking order makes that geeky Zima-bellied kid your bitch.

3 - Prevents dribbled beer from rusting your NASCAR belt buckle.

2 - Irrefutable proof that you really really really really really REALLY like beer.

1 - May be light-sabered open to provide warmth if you're ever in danger of freezing to death on an ice planet.

:popcorn:

[price1869]

All I'm going to say is that scout leader used poor judgment that put the lives of the group at risk. He should be removed from that position. WTF are scouts doing in that canyon, or any canyon for that matter.

Sounds to me like the kid needs to be in more canyons, and fewer video games/buffet lines. Take kids out and take risks. UAG, with that attitude, we're all going to end up like the humans on Wall-ee.

[ratagonia]

--Bump--

[Scott Card]

And a good bump it is. Plenty of folks likely have this canyon in their sights. :2thumbs:

[Branin]

I've taken my scouts through that canyon, as well as the laurels from our ward. I've also taken our scouts and Laurels through Chop rock. Not to mention I have taken the scouts through Heaps, Full Imlay, Several Powell canyons Etc. Etc. Maybe that's why I don't see the problem should he have been better prepared of course. I'm not following your logic on this.
:2thumbs:I'm all for scouts, and other youth groups in canyons. If it's done right.