Auto-Locking vs. Screwgate

[oldno7]

Carabineers
Had an interesting moment this weekend, I had a newish canyoneer who wanted a top rope belay on a downclimb. I watched the process from directly above the downclimber.
About halfway down a fairly tight squeeze, the guy froze in panic. He had run the screwgate EDIT:(should have said auto-locker, too much of a hurry heading out this morning) over rock enough to twist the gate the required 1/4 turn and open the biner. He caught it on time, but what if his rope had popped out of the biner and he thought he was still on a belay?
That which doesn't kill us, can only make us stronger!!!
Maybe not easily reproduced, but the potential is real.
Thoughts?

[moab mark]

Had the same thing happen with the girl who did Eardley with us. She had a auto locking and when she went over the last edge on her hip I heard the carabiner rub against the rock and I watched the rock twist it to the open position. As soon as she moved it closed but there was a moment when it would of opened.

Mark

[Iceaxe]

One the flip side.... I've had screw gates become jammed with sand and grit. They then become extremely difficult to open.... difficult enough that kids and noobs can not get them to release.

[rcwild]

He had run the screwgate over rock enough to twist the gate the required 1/4 turn and open the biner.

What carabiner was he using that could come open in 1/4 turn? The Pirate in my hand requires 5 full turns before the gate will clear the sleeve. Forced a steel OP open after 3.5 turns. Attache in 2. William in 1.75.

[Pelon1]

He had run the screwgate over rock enough to twist the gate the required 1/4 turn and open the biner.

That sounds more like an autolocker?

[rcwild]

That sounds more like an autolocker?

Yet another reason not to use them for canyoneering.

[Brian in SLC]

Had an interesting moment this weekend, I had a newish canyoneer who wanted a top rope belay on a downclimb.

Was it a situation where he could have tied directly into the rope? No need for any type of biner?

I used to prefer the DMM autolockers with the plastic twist lock. 1/4 turn. Once the mechanism got clogged with sand (or whatever), they turned into a manual "auto" locker, which I really liked. No threads to get stuck.

Had a pile of them, but, they all got grooved out.

Seen a neat trick with a Petzl ball locker, where you can void the warrenty and make it an easy to use locking biner...

I try to find lockers with threads that are tolerant of grit. Also, maybe two regular biners with the gates reversed might work well too.

Cheers.

-Brian in SLC

[hank moon]

http://theuiaa.org/upload_area/files/1/Attaching_to_rope_by_karabiner.pdf

Use no biner, or...

Just two it.

[Brian in SLC]

http://theuiaa.org/upload_area/files/1/Attaching_to_rope_by_karabiner.pdf

The UIAA article mispelled "Petzel".

I know the DMM belay master (has a plastic bit that swings over and traps the rope in the end of the biner, as well as hides the lock/gate area). I'd think that rig would help with grit in the threads, too. Surprised these haven't caught on...

What's so special about the "Petzel" ball lock? Can it really not come undone? You have to press the button and spin? Besides the "non-recalled" models that were just twistlockers... Seems like the loop of rope could still run over the ball and twist too?

Those double action bayonet type lockers would be ok, but, mostly a pain to use one-handed...

-Brian in SLC

[hank moon]

The "Petzel" Ball Lock is nothing special and I wouldn't recommend it for a single-biner belay attachment. Note that the Ball Lock design available when the article was written is no longer for sale. None of the Petzl "ball" series carabiners are any good in a desert environment.

The DMM BelayMaster would likely be a good choice if one HAD to attach a belay line with a single 'biner.

In general, best to tie in w/the rope or use two 'biners (toprope only!) Lots of accidents using a single locker, mostly hidden by the self-perpetuating wonder machine called the US tort system.

[canyoncaver]

Hank, do you attach your rappel device with two biners for the same reason? I know some cavers that do...

[denaliguide]

not tying in directly to your harness? sounds like someone learned to climb in a gym. the only time i ever incorporated a biner into my primary tie in was for glacier travel. it's just one more thing that can go wrong while doing the thing that is the most dangerous aspect of climbing, descending.

[hank moon]

Hank, do you attach your rappel device with two biners for the same reason? I know some cavers that do...

I do not as (in contrast to a belayed climb) the rap-tachment 'biner is normally under constant load, properly oriented, and can be easily checked while in use. the chief danger in belayed climbs is accidental unclipping, not breakage.

I know a caver who used two 10mm maillons to attach his rack (for breakage redundancy). This seemed needlessly screwy, so he rec'd a 16mm Delta maillon for a birthday prezzie :mrgreen:

[oldno7]

What carabiner was he using that could come open in 1/4 turn? The Pirate in my hand requires 5 full turns before the gate will clear the sleeve. Forced a steel OP open after 3.5 turns. Attache in 2. William in 1.75.

Typo--meant the auto locking biner.

[Brian in SLC]

not tying in directly to your harness? sounds like someone learned to climb in a gym.

No gym in Utah, to my knowledge.

I can think of only a couple, maybe one or two gyms, that have folks clip into a carabiner for top roping. One was for use with an auto belay device, the other was a gym which had Gri Gri's permanently attached for belay for the top ropes.

Pretty rare for folks to not tie straight into a rope in the climbing gym.

Its kinda funny, but, I hear folks that are critial of those who learn to climb in a gym and how those skills don't necessarily transfer outdoors. From what I've observed, they at least learn SOME basics, rather than a few folks who go it alone and head out with even fewer skills they've picked up from poorly educated friends and/or a book.

I always try to listen in (the classes they teach at Rockreation here in SLC are right next to the lead area). They seem to get fairly good instruction, especially on how to tie in, how to clip, how to belay (great upgrade in how in the last while, very nice), how to lower someone. Its reasonable. Is it enough to climb outdoors? Maybe. Gym climbers at least have some skills, and, if they spend much time in the gym, they get a ton of mileage.

Oh well, off to the climbing gym...(ha ha).

-Brian in SLC

[moab mark]

When we did an adventure race in moab they made us get a form signed by a climbing gym that we could belay etc. We went to Rockreation for the class. I was quite impressed with what they taught us in a short class. Well worth the time.

[oldno7]

not tying in directly to your harness? sounds like someone learned to climb in a gym. the only time i ever incorporated a biner into my primary tie in was for glacier travel. it's just one more thing that can go wrong while doing the thing that is the most dangerous aspect of climbing, descending.

Les
We use a biner attachment rather than a re-threaded tie in for efficiency. If you have 10 people going through a canyon with maybe 5-10 consecutive downclimbs, tying directly into the harness is very time consuming. A lot of these type of downclimbs are in the 10-20' range. In canyoneering we mostly are descending the whole time, using a screwgate carabiner attachment for a belay from above, while downclimbing I believe to be safe. I try to get through in an efficient and safe manner. I've never personally used a auto-locking carabiner in a canyon environment. Screwgates seem quite safe and less prone to stick in a sandy environment,IMO. YMMV

[oval]

Personally, I just use 2 opposite and opposed keylock oval biners for rappeling. That way I don't have to worry about the gate getting opened, or the gate getting jammed shut, and plus it's redundant. I haven't switched over to wiregate ovals opposite and opposed yet, but I"ll probably give that a shot soon.

[denaliguide]

i'm not sure but i don't think wire gates are recommended for that purpose.

[Iceaxe]

I turned this thread into a poll because I was curious who used what....

I've always preferred auto-lockers because I have less problems with them, and they are much easier to operate one handed.... but after reading this thread I think I might be in the minority....

There is not a right or wrong answer, despite what some might tell you.... :haha: and your vote is anonymous..... :cool2:

[ratagonia]

I turned this thread into a poll because I was curious who used what....

I've always preferred auto-lockers because I have less problems with them, and they are much easier to operate one handed.... but after reading this thread I think I might be in the minority....

There is not a right or wrong answer, despite what some might tell you.... :haha: and your vote is anonymous..... :cool2:

Please add two-biners-with-reversed gates to the poll.

Opinion (IMNEHO): if I see auto-locking biners on peoples' harnesses, I take it as a sign they have never been in a Utah canyon before. A little grit and they stop working. Closed, open, whatever, they STOP WORKING and become useless. Some biners become "group gear" as they are shared for setting up biner blocks, clipping ropes, zipping packs, anchoring ropes, etc. If someone hands me an autolock for this purpose, I am tempted to throw it away - but now in my elder-wisdom phase, I just hand it back to them "what is this?". Not good for group gear because you have to know how to use it, and practice. When my hands or cold or wearing gloves etc, I am not interested in spending time and effort to figure out how to open their darn biner!

For my belay biner when climbing - autolock for sure. But only I use it, and it is used for one purpose.

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

Please add two-biners-with-reversed gates to the poll.

Opinion (IMNEHO): if I see auto-locking biners on peoples' harnesses, I take it as a sign they have never been in a Utah canyon before. A little grit and they stop working. Closed, open, whatever, they STOP WORKING and become useless.

Yeah.... I've hardly done any Utah canyons. :roflol:

I have more problems with the screw-gates collecting grit and sticking..... Your Mileage May Vary...

As I said.... I was more interested in hearing what people were actually using.... and not a lecture on why everyone not parroting Tom was using the wrong type.... :roll:

[ratagonia]

Yeah.... I've hardly done any Utah canyons. :roflol:

I have more problems with the screw-gates collecting grit and sticking..... Your Mileage May Vary...

As I said.... I was more interested in hearing what people were actually using.... and not a lecture on why everyone not parroting Tom was using the wrong type.... :roll:

Awwwww, poor shane.... :cry1:

T

[Iceaxe]

Whatever the heck this biner is (Petzl Williams Tri-act?) they are awesome.... Hank gave me a bunch of them about 5 or 6 years ago and I love them. I've never had one stick. They are also simple and easy for my kids to operate. The kids are always having problems with screw-gates because they stick or get tightened to much for them to release....

Which brings up anther question.... why do some people think that a screw-gate has to be screwed shut really tight to work? I see this all the time when someone is helping a noob or kid... and I know the kids will never be able to release the biner on their own.

34852

[oval]

I'd happy contribute if you add 2 opposite and opposed biners, like Tom said :D

[hank moon]

Whatever the heck this biner is (Petzl Williams Tri-act?) they are awesome.... Hank gave me a bunch of them about 5 or 6 years ago and I love them. I've never had one stick. They are also simple and easy for my kids to operate. The kids are always having problems with screw-gates because they stick or get tightened to much for them to release....

Which brings up anther question.... why do some people think that a screw-gate has to be screwed shut really tight to work? I see this all the time when someone is helping a noob or kid... and I know the kids will never be able to release the biner on their own.

34852

Yeah, that Petzl Tri Act mechanism is the most grit-resistant I've seen (even better than Petzl screwgate). Not sure why.

[Iceaxe]

I'd happy contribute if you add 2 opposite and opposed biners, like Tom said :D

I tried but I can't figure out how to edit a poll... this new control panel has a lot more buttons then the old one had...

So I guess the question is, which do you prefer if you have to use one of the two choices listed.

[Brian in SLC]

Here are a few of my favorite things...

34856

The HB is my current. The DMM's with the plastic twist locks are a bit grooved out, but, the action functions better than I remember. Still fully functional. The grit must have flushed out of them, as I remember at least one was a manual twist locker. Strange.

Possibly proof I've never been in a Utah canyon...

Pretty difficult to figure out how to use, too. You twist it, opens. Let it go, closes. Yeah, super complicated.

Har har.

[hank moon]

Brian, i have a couple or 3 of those DMM you can have if ya want... LMK

[John Peterson]

No gym in Utah, to my knowledge.

I can think of only a couple, maybe one or two gyms, that have folks clip into a carabiner for top roping. One was for use with an auto belay device, the other was a gym which had Gri Gri's permanently attached for belay for the top ropes.

Pretty rare for folks to not tie straight into a rope in the climbing gym.


iRock in Ogden has all of their TRs set up for an 8-on-a-bight. When I've climbed there I don't mind clipping in. You don't take any more load off of a TR fall on a static rope (assuming your belayer is paying attention) than you do on your belay loop from a bouncy rappel.

My only input regarding locking biners (and I'm still very much a canyon n00b) is thinking back to the first rap I did into deep, cold, fast-moving water with 50' of rope churning beneath me, and having a bitch of a time opening the screwgate biner while keeping my head above water and legs untangled. Rappel dependent, going unlocked is an option too...

[rcwild]

My only input regarding locking biners (and I'm still very much a canyon n00b) is thinking back to the first rap I did into deep, cold, fast-moving water with 50' of rope churning beneath me, and having a bitch of a time opening the screwgate biner while keeping my head above water and legs untangled. Rappel dependent, going unlocked is an option too...

The situation you describe has killed numerous canyoneers around the world. Better to set the rope length to the water level and use a releasable tie-in, i.e. munter-mule with safety or locked off rappel device.

[hank moon]

i wonder...out of those preferring screwgates, how many base that preference on extensive use of both types of carabiner (screwgate and autolock)?

[denaliguide]

i wonder...out of those preferring screwgates, how many base that preference on extensive use of both types of carabiner (screwgate and autolock)?

me, but mostly in alpine and rock environs.

[jman]

The situation you describe has killed numerous canyoneers around the world. Better to set the rope length to the water level and use a releasable tie-in, i.e. munter-mule with safety or locked off rappel device.

I agree. And they are easy to set up too.

[xxnitsuaxx]

Rappel dependent, going unlocked is an option too...

Thank you for spelling dependent correctly. I've almost started believing it should be dependant. You're restoring my hope in humanity.

[John Peterson]

Thank you for spelling dependent correctly. I've almost started believing it should be dependant. You're restoring my hope in humanity.

My favorite locally is "Zion's National Park." Also 'irregardless.'

[hank moon]

My favorite locally is "Zion's National Park." Also 'irregardless.'

Stop wasting time - buy now!

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?39734-Everybody-wants-one!

[unripecoconut]

I'm glad I ran across this old thread. I've used ball-locks in Zion and in SoCal and really had no major problems with them. Like any locker, they can get gritty and sometimes need a run back and forth under water to clean them out.

Tom is right that shared gear is better when standardized. Few people know how to open a ball lock quickly and autolockers come in many flavors.

At the same time, I won't bother using a screwgate unless absolutely needed...I've caught more people with unscrewed screwgates on rappel than I care to talk about.

We shall see, this year in Zion, I'm really going to give my ball-locks a rough time.

[moabmatt]

I use a steel, autolocking oval for my rappel and belay biner. Had it for years and it just won't wear out, even when paired with a tube-type or pirana rap device on wet, sandy ropes. In addition to its durability, I enjoy the efficiency of it. When belaying, I can unlock/lock the belay rope so much faster than screwgates. This does save a lot of time when guiding large groups. I have had the sleeve stick on me a time or two from grit and sand, but it's usually pretty easy to clear. Just pay attention to things like this and realize that most devices have pros and cons. Few things, if any, are failproof.

[ratagonia]

Tom is right that ...


Thank you for your post, sir, and welcome to the Bogley. :cool2:



At the same time, I won't bother using a screwgate unless absolutely needed...I've caught more people with unscrewed screwgates on rappel than I care to talk about.


I am unclear on what you are saying here: don't use locking biners; or don't find screwgates reliable... ?

Tom

[Branin]

I'm a screwgate fan myself. And to answer the question about having used both types: Yes. Extensively. Autolockers certainly have their place, especially in some of the applications I need biners for (ropes/challenge course), but that place is not on my canyoneering harness. I find that they get gummed up easier, are harder to operate 1-handed (especially the three stage, two stage not so bad), and are much harder to clean after. They're also more expensive and canyoneering wears out gear...

Has anyone on here had a chance to play with the BD magnetron in any sort of real situation yet? They're not available for purchase yet, but BD has been showing them off at every trade show for seemingly ever. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj6Rmw92bLY
I'm excited (although not necessarily optimistic) to try one in a few canyons.

[Brian in SLC]

I'm a screwgate fan myself. And to answer the question about having used both types: Yes. Extensively. Autolockers certainly have their place, especially in some of the applications I need biners for (ropes/challenge course), but that place is not on my canyoneering harness. I find that they get gummed up easier, are harder to operate 1-handed (especially the three stage, two stage not so bad), and are much harder to clean after. They're also more expensive and canyoneering wears out gear...

Has anyone on here had a chance to play with the BD magnetron in any sort of real situation yet? They're not available for purchase yet, but BD has been showing them off at every trade show for seemingly ever. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj6Rmw92bLY
I'm excited (although not necessarily optimistic) to try one in a few canyons.

Old thread, but, I still like the autolocker for my main belay/rappel biner. Exception being for a trapped rap device like a ATS or Piranha (mostly cause I haven't bothered to look for one with round rod stock, but, I like that it doesn't autolock when using one of those rap devices).

Yeah, I've used both a bunch. Still do. My light alpine rig uses a screw lock biner. I see someone (Madrock maybe) makes a really light, compact auto locker...hmmm....

I used the BD Magnetron this winter a bit ice climbing. One handed with a glove? Ugh. I had a hard time with it. Requires a bit more finese than I was willing to fiddle with. Maybe if they tweak it a bit, but, for now, didn't care for it.

[unripecoconut]

Thank you for your post, sir, and welcome to the Bogley. :cool2:
I am unclear on what you are saying here: don't use locking biners; or don't find screwgates reliable... ?

Basically, I'm saying that I love locking carabiners for my own use for just about any climbing / rapping activity. I'm also saying that even though screwgates are extremely reliable from a hardware perspective, they can easily be left unlocked by exhausted or ill-trained canyoneers. I've seen people start rapping down and then say "oh wait, I need to lock my screwgate!" That's scary. Regardless, if I'm leading a group I just make sure people use a buddy type system to do a quick check of each other's gear before going on rappel and I have newbies show me that they are secure before rappelling.