Sandtrap(initial thoughts)

[oldno7]

Took the sandtrap out into a canyon yesterday. Tested it in several different configurations--What I've found..........

I quite like this idea and consider this device to be a very good improvement as an anchoring system over a potshot, or series of potshots. The series of potshots is mostly reliant on weight, the sandtrap uses weight, but mainly benefits from friction. Be forewarned, if you do not understand sequencing and the proper way to load a marginal anchor, it will leave you badly injured or dead.
You also need a good understanding of the role rope bending and rock friction reduce the load applied to marginal or any anchors.
We backed up this system every time for the people in front of the group, last person was the lightest/smoothest rappeller.(not necessarily the same) They were the one who kept backing off the equalization of sandtrap and meat backup, so as soon as it was the last persons time to rap, the system had been tested and the last person had a level of confidence in the sandtrap on it's own.(same sequence with most marginal anchors)
On one rappel, 15'+/-, I had lamar come down within a foot or so of the bottom(very controlled)at that point, I had the person bounce(freehanging) as much as possible, the sandtrap held up through this assault. Of note-on this rappel, the sandtrap was placed directly upcanyon of a rather large rounded boulder that was mostly buried in the stream course.
The amazing thing to me was the ease of pulls, I purposely set the sandtrap up above a couple of chokestones to see if they were prone to sticking in such a setup. To my surprise, once the sandtrap dumped it's load above these obstacles, the pull was almost effortless. The pulling/emptying is a great feature.
I used rapides on both the pull side and rap side and would consider this a must on a questionable pull.(probably not a bad idea for most situations)
Like I said, this was my first time using the device, and I'm sure I've missed some intricacies that will become more obvious through time. I never had a chance to load the entire sheet, each time I loaded the front half and folded the upcanyon section over it.
I want to try loading the whole sheet and using only 2 tie in points.
Overall a seemingly very nice, lightweight piece of gear that can easily be carried through a canyon. I look forward to finding more uses for this device.
Kurt

edit-This is the Imlay Canyon Gear sandtrap, I have recently purchased several items from them and have been impressed with the communication, promptness of shipping and quality of shipping.

[moab mark]

I haven't tried mine out yet but each time I hear positives on the trap gives me warm and fuzzies that I might not go splat.:clap:

[sasteve49]

I have produced a 20 minute instructional video(too long to post on YouTube)on the MaxxiPad. It is available for $12 including S/H, or free with an order of a MaxxiPad. Call Steve at 435-669-3094 for more info. By the way, I am the original inventor of the MaxxiPad(aka sandtrap)
Be safe out there.....
Steve.

[Jaxx]

I'm glad the name changed to sandtrap. "Hey get out the maxxipad so we can ghost this rap" :roflol:

[Don]

I'm glad the name changed to sandtrap. "Hey get out the maxxipad so we can ghost this rap" :roflol:

Plus you often hike with women, it would be terrible if, due to a miscommunication, she packed the wrong maxxipad. :haha:

[Cirrus2000]

Ummm, guys? The name didn't change. The version Tom sells is the Sandtrap. The version that Steve - the inventor - sells is called the MaxxiPad.

FYI

[Jaxx]

haha oh no. I hope I didn't offend anyone then! Well I won't forget the name maxxipad anytime soon! I can never walk down isle 7 without thinking about canyoneering now :lol8:

[Cirrus2000]

haha oh no. I hope I didn't offend anyone then! Well I won't forget the name maxxipad anytime soon! I can never walk down isle 7 without thinking about canyoneering now :lol8:
:roflol::roflol:

[Iceaxe]

FYI: Steve's now has an instructional video of his MaxxiPad available for free on Youtube....

Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfefhzUzQRE


Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUDcFTYRX8I


Part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eArzonLrV34

[Felicia]

Interesting...a new toy! :clap:

But I gotta tell ya, I do not like the name MaxxiPad - wouldn't there be some type of copyright infringement issue with this name?

I could reuse a sandtrap over and over again with more peace of mind.

[Cirrus2000]

Interesting...a new toy! :clap:

But I gotta tell ya, I do not like the name MaxxiPad - wouldn't there be some type of copyright infringement issue with this name?

I could reuse a sandtrap over and over again with more peace of mind.
:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

[sasteve49]

Well, how about we just call it "The Pad"? The name MaxxiPad was suggested by a friend and my wife and I, having a sense of humor, adopted the name. But I am from South Africa and my wife is :naughty:from Holland so maybe it's a cultural thing.......
But all that aside, there is no copyright infringement, it is spelt differently and describes a different product entirely. I have been all through the Trademark process and also the patent application process on another product that I invented and developed. I could not afford an attorney, so did EVERYTHING myself over many months. I have applied for a PPA on "The Pad" for use in an entirely different scenario from which I hopefully can make some money. By the way, you can check out my other product at the site www.tailgaterstrap.com .......maybe you need one of these too...:wink:

[Scott Card]

I too have an issue with the name Maxxipad. In an effort to preserve some sense of decorum and retain whatever little bit of wholesome reputation I may have, I will refrain from making more comments. I really wish you would consider a different name also. It is just kind of icky. If it is too late now, maybe for your second version? Please?

[Spidey]

Well, how about we just call it "The Pad"? The name MaxxiPad was suggested by a friend and my wife and I, having a sense of humor, adopted the name. But I am from South Africa and my wife is :naughty:from Holland so maybe it's a cultural thing.......
But all that aside, there is no copyright infringement, it is spelt differently and describes a different product entirely. I have been all through the Trademark process and also the patent application process on another product that I invented and developed. I could not afford an attorney, so did EVERYTHING myself over many months. I have applied for a PPA on "The Pad" for use in an entirely different scenario from which I hopefully can make some money. By the way, you can check out my other product at the site www.tailgaterstrap.com .......maybe you need one of these too...:wink:

Careful Steve, you only have 14 posts. Beware the egotistical heavy handed moderator. He's watching you.

[Cirrus2000]

Careful Steve, you only have 14 posts. Beware the egotistical heavy handed moderator. He's watching you.
But he hasn't been a "whiny bitch", so that factor goes way down... :roflol:


N = post count
Y = Years Member
W = whiny little bitch factor

Y(N+10)/W > 20

Haven't said it, Steve, but welcome! :wave: Enjoyed the Pad videos. :2thumbs: Very cool to see it in action.

[DOSS]

Y(N+10)/W > 20

1(14+10)/0 = One is unable to Divide by zero = a failure to clarify how the whiny little bitch factor works = Mods don't like Spidey = get over it :)

[Jaxx]

35124

[sasteve49]

Thanks Kev, appreciate the support. Orders have been going crazy. Each one will be accompanied by the video dvd. I am going to have to raise the price though unfortunately. My bud who makes them started as a favor, but now he is swamped so needs me to pay a fair whack for his expertise. Fair enough. I have now only 6 left at this price of $79 plus S/H of $6.00. Then the price will match the other version out there that is doing well too.
Be safe,
Steve. 435-669-3094.

[jman]

Y(N+10)/W > 20

....Mods don't like Spidey = get over it :)

hey now.......

I like Steve. :naughty::naughty::naughty::naughty::naughty::naug hty::naughty::naughty::naughty::naughty::naughty:: naughty::naughty::naughty::naughty::naughty::naugh ty::naughty::naughty::naughty::naughty::naughty::n aughty::naughty::naughty::naughty::naughty::naught y::naughty::naughty::naughty::naughty:

[sasteve49]

So what constitutes a rookie on Bogley? Number of posts or number of canyons done.......?:naughty:

[Jaxx]

Number of posts. But if you post "jumping" videos you are automatically a vet! That is my opinion.

[ScoutColorado]

So what constitutes a rookie on Bogley? Number of posts or number of canyons done.......?:naughty:

Definition according to Cambridge and WorldBook
rookie /ruki:/ noun

1. An awkward and inexperienced youth.
2. First year participant in a major professional sport.
3. Someone who drinks LESS than a case of beer before posting on Bogley.

[accadacca]

Definition according to Cambridge and WorldBook
rookie /ruki:/ noun

1. An awkward and inexperienced youth.
2. First year participant in a major professional sport.
3. Someone who drinks LESS than a case of beer before posting on Bogley.
:roflol::pitcher:

[sasteve49]

Well......I guess I got 2 out of three here. Only half a case before venturing into the midst of all these veterans.....:wink: Did my first rappel in 1973 out of a Huey....then lots more over the years. First did Pine Creek 9 years ago with my buddy Rick. I remember it was completely dry, amazing.

[oldno7]

I'm going to jump in on this thread again, because I think there is some information here that is going to get someone hurt.
I don't know Steve at all, or Tom very well. I haven't done any canyons with either, so I have no dog in the fight between these two.

I'll go back to my original statement that talked about this system as a "marginal" anchoring system... IT IS!!!!!
I think to suggest that long(100'+) rappels can be done with this device, without sequencing or using a "legitimate" meat back up is DANGEROUS!
There should be an awful lot of thought, by an experienced canyoneer, put into the use of this device. To suggest that you can back up this system by merely placing your foot on the rappel strand is negligent. I understand that you have been able to do this and it has added enough weight/friction to control the device. BUT---In the bigger picture, I would suggest that if this device begins to slip, putting your foot on the rope will not be enough to prevent the maxxi/sand from releasing, jumping on the device as it slides may not help either.

So I would suggest:
1) Carefully place this device, hopefully behind a small natural feature, or dig a slight trench to help hold it.
2) Set up a sequence of your group( by weight and rappelling ability)
3) Sequence would put the smallest/smoothest rappeler last.
4) ALWAYS back up with meat for everyone but LAMAR.
5) Use sit starts to incorporate friction into the rigging as soon as possible.

This is a great idea and a huge asset to canyoneers. It is not a bomber anchoring system! It is a tool, and a good tool, that needs to be used properly.

[rcwild]

Some very good points, Kurt. Thank you for posting.

There was an incident recently. Pad was backed up for everyone except LAMAR. As he started to rappel, LAMAR decided to make a slight adjustment to the pad's position. The adjustment caused it to fail during his rappel and sent him tumbling. Fortunately for him, not very far.

Have fun. Be safe.

[sonnylawrence]

5) Use sit starts to incorporate friction into the rigging as soon as possible.

This is indeed an advanced anchor technique. I believe that all but the last should try to stress the anchor rather than baby it. Go ahead, lean back and jump around, as long as there is a bomb proof backup of some sort. That will make the last person feel much more comfortable as he/she then uses the gentle approach Kurt refers to in #5.

[ratagonia]

I'll go back to my original statement that talked about this system as a "marginal" anchoring system... IT IS!!!!!

I think to suggest that long(100'+) rappels can be done with this device, without sequencing or using a "legitimate" meat back up is DANGEROUS!
There should be an awful lot of thought, by an experienced canyoneer, put into the use of this device. To suggest that you can back up this system by merely placing your foot on the rappel strand is negligent. I understand that you have been able to do this and it has added enough weight/friction to control the device. BUT---In the bigger picture, I would suggest that if this device begins to slip, putting your foot on the rope will not be enough to prevent the maxxi/sand from releasing, jumping on the device as it slides may not help either.

So I would suggest:
1) Carefully place this device, hopefully behind a small natural feature, or dig a slight trench to help hold it.
2) Set up a sequence of your group( by weight and rappelling ability)
3) Sequence would put the smallest/smoothest rappeler last.
4) ALWAYS back up with meat for everyone but LAMAR.
5) Use sit starts to incorporate friction into the rigging as soon as possible.

This is a great idea and a huge asset to canyoneers. It is not a bomber anchoring system! It is a tool, and a good tool, that needs to be used properly.

The backup/testing plan is very important, and unfortunately not really stressed in Steve's Video.

Well, actually, putting your foot on the tensioned rope or standing on the SandTrap works really well as a backup. But it does not really help with the testing - which is VERY important. A slightly slack tether back to a meat (or other) anchor is very helpful in letting the trap "settle itself in", and seeing what happens without interrupting it until true failure is imminent.

If a small pothole type feature is not available, a berm can be built in front of the SandTrap which creates much the same effect.

More info available here: http://imlaycanyongear.com/sandtrap.php

Tom :moses:

[oldno7]

This is indeed an advanced anchor technique. I believe that all but the last should try to stress the anchor rather than baby it. Go ahead, lean back and jump around, as long as there is a bomb proof backup of some sort. That will make the last person feel much more comfortable as he/she then uses the gentle approach Kurt refers to in #5.

I'm going to have to agree to disagree with this Sonny.
If I want to blow out a "marginal" anchor, I can usually do so doing as you suggest.
On the other hand--If I start out with equal weight distribution between the marginal anchor and meat back up, I can have the person doing the meat back up, slowly release tension on their system between each subsequent rappeler, thus slowly testing the "marginal" anchor. I never have the backup(meat) release more than 1/2-1 inch of tension, that way if the system were to fail, it doesn't overly shock load the meat back up. The last person(LAMAR), has gained the knowledge of knowing the "marginal" anchor held those who went before him, who should have weighed more. Thus increasing the "warm fuzzies"

[sasteve49]

OK, first of all, it is awesome to see all the comments and advice given concerning the MaxxiPad/Sandtrap. There is no "fight" between Tom and I, only an agreement to disagree on the construction. When I first thought up the idea of the MaxxiPad and had my wife sew it up to my design, the only person (of numerous experienced canyoneers here in Zion that I showed it to),that thought it could be a good idea, was Jonathan of Zion Adventure Company. So we tested it extensively on over 200 raps in canyons at Lake Powell. From short potholes to long(100ft plus), even one free hanging of over 160ft from the MaxxiPad in a flat position with no lip! We experimented with weights and distribution of sand, sequencing heavier people first and actually got to a point where we were comfortable with me going last(190lbs). So before any other canyoneers had even heard of it, we had thoroughly tested it in some pretty extreme situations. And we never once used a meat anchor as backup.I am not a crazy, fearless or reckless individual. I assess every situation before I commit, whether doing a base jump or rapping off the MaxxiPad. So thanks to all for any input and I would like to see safety in the canyons paramount. I had the pleasure of doing some canyons with Ram at Powell and he was surprised to see us using it in the flat mode instead of folded. Apparently he had been told that the folded "taco" configuration was the only way to use it, even on flat surfaces. This is wrong input. I originally designed it for the flat mode and then realized the folded "taco" would work behind lips as well. Be safe out there......