Civil Disobedience and Zion Permits

[Iceaxe]

I propose that poaching the canyons in Zion is safer then spending a sleepless night in the permit line..... and I'll happily pay the cost of the ticket... if they can catch me..... to get a good nights sleep in a nice comfy bed.

I salute the backcountry permit system. :flipa:


Civil Disobedience (http://books.google.com/books?id=AiVQUZSDjscC&printsec=frontcover&dq=civil+disobedience&source=bl&ots=L9LihD7vnM&sig=UlfJvwEHKyc0pZ6CecjIuWdtxz0&hl=en&ei=uS4cTLG1FcX_lgfB65zyDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=13&ved=0CFgQ6AEwDA#v=onepage&q&f=false) - by Henry David Thoreau

[asdf]

How much is the fine?

[Iceaxe]

How much is the fine?

I don't know.... I've never been caught! :lol8:


I believe it's $200.... might be $300...

The fine for camping at the permit window is $50. Or that was the cost of the last person I know that picked up a ticket at the permit window.

And... the guy that was busted last year for guiding canyoneers inside the park was nicked $1000.

[Brian in SLC]

I propose that poaching the canyons in Zion is safer then spending a sleepless night in the permit line..... and I'll happily pay the cost of the ticket... if they can catch me.....

You gotta get a lone ranger mask...or zorro.

Maybe a flashy cape. Yeah, a cape.

Was thinkin' about this the other day. What would be the most public canyon to poach? I wonder if maybe there's a "poaching" rating system to be developed.

Mystery or Pine Creek. Now we all need sock puppet handles so we can post poaching trip reports...

[oval]

I just wish that actually PHYSICALLY picking up the permits was easier. They don't make it easy, even if you reserve online.

I guess permits are the price you pay for the park to regulate those people fresh into canyoneering that might need to be scared a bit... I swear that everytime I go they try to freak everyone out in my party. I guess I get what they are trying to do... sort of.

[Sombeech]

I was planning a backpacking trip @ the Tetons. I called the Ranger Station to ask a few questions.

Me - Are there camp fire restrictions this year?

Her - Yes. No fires are allowed.

Hmm... well that really sucks. What would happen to me if I just had a camp fire anyways? What's the fine?

(shocked & unprepared for an answer) um, I - well I don't know. umm, bad karma?

Actually I can live with that. Sweet.

...I was surprised, not even a $$$ amount was known by the ranger, just that you shouldn't do it and you'll have bad karma.

[denaliguide]

probably a seasonal, or a volunteer.

[reddman]

I agree with oval. The backcountry desk has always tried to freak out people in my party as well. We went to do Keyhole one afternoon and got some concern from the ranger issuing the permit.
Me: Can we get a permit for keyhole?
Ranger: For what day?
Me: Today.
Ranger: Today? Today? Do you realize there was rain earlier today?
Me: Yup! We just came from that way saw that there wasn't flow and hardly any moisture.
Ranger: Well I haven't been up there so I guess I wouldn't know, but don't feel like you have to use this permit just because you bought it. If you get up there and need to turn around you can always get a rain check.

We ended up doing Keyhole twice that evening. With a little flow and it turned out to be the best Keyhole experience I have had.

[french_de]

I just wish that actually PHYSICALLY picking up the permits was easier. They don't make it easy, even if you reserve online.

I guess permits are the price you pay for the park to regulate those people fresh into canyoneering that might need to be scared a bit... I swear that everytime I go they try to freak everyone out in my party. I guess I get what they are trying to do... sort of. That is why I like the Express permit system. It allows you to retrieve, pay and print your reserved permit on line without physically visiting the VC. This is especially important with the road construction this year.

[Cirrus2000]

That is why I like the Express permit system. It allows you to retrieve, pay and print your reserved permit on line without physically visiting the VC. This is especially important with the road construction this year.

Which reminds me: As a traveler, I can't print out my permit that I buy with the express permit system. My iPhone has no printer. Has anyone ever tried to use the received PDF file, displayed on their mobile device, as a permit when checked?

Last fall, I tried to print a permit at the Pioneer Lodge, and their computers were down. The computer at the motel reception desk didn't recognize PDF files (really?!?), so I couldn't print the permit. I opened it in my iPhone, and took it along through whichever canyon it was. If we got stopped & checked, I assumed it would do the job. Yes, no, maybe so?

[Iceaxe]

Was thinkin' about this the other day. What would be the most public canyon to poach? I wonder if maybe there's a "poaching" rating system to be developed.

Mystery or Pine Creek. Now we all need sock puppet handles so we can post poaching trip reports...


I'd say The Subway is number 1 on the difficult canyons to poach list.... rangers are always hanging out at the trailheads and issuing tickets for one thing or anther.

[trackrunner]

That is why I like the Express permit system. It allows you to retrieve, pay and print your reserved permit on line without physically visiting the VC. This is especially important with the road construction this year.

helpful, yes!, still has it's limitations. I've had plans change (edit out rant) and the permit system is not flexible. Have to wait in line is during the best cool hiking hours in the summer.

Last two times I had to wait in line the computer system was down, on holiday weekends. everything had to be done by hand. morning line didn't clear out until 10:45. sure is nice to start your approach hike close to the noon hour in the summer.

most people at the desk stop playing 20 questions with me when they know what I'm talking about. a couple of them are real cool and helpful.

but last time, wow, she would not stop. (edit out rant). only bad personal ranger (yes I checked to make sure it was a nps ranger) interaction for me ever.

this experience really made me appreciate the good staff, rangers, employees, and volunteers that work in the park. thank you to all the good ones.



this would be where :moses: would insert:


Representative Jim Matheson
240 East Morris Avenue #235
South Salt Lake, UT 84115
Phone - (801) 486-1236
Fax - (801) 486-1417

or

Representative Jim Matheson
321 North Mall Dr., #E101B
St. George, UT 84790
Phone - (435) 627-0880
Fax - (435) 627-1473

and your local congressional representative if different

and CC

Superintendent Jock Whitworth
Zion National Park
Springdale, UT 84767-1099

[french_de]

Which reminds me: As a traveler, I can't print out my permit that I buy with the express permit system. My iPhone has no printer. Has anyone ever tried to use the received PDF file, displayed on their mobile device, as a permit when checked?

Last fall, I tried to print a permit at the Pioneer Lodge, and their computers were down. The computer at the motel reception desk didn't recognize PDF files (really?!?), so I couldn't print the permit. I opened it in my iPhone, and took it along through whichever canyon it was. If we got stopped & checked, I assumed it would do the job. Yes, no, maybe so?

I assume that would be OK . I currently have access to an air card for my laptop giving me a really good internet connection in some far off places. I am going to use a small portable printer to print my permits.:nod:

When I get my Ipad I could just carry an electronic copy on that. I wonder it there are pelican cases large enough to protect my Ipad when I carry it thru some really rugged canyons :lol8:

[ratagonia]

Which reminds me: As a traveler, I can't print out my permit that I buy with the express permit system. My iPhone has no printer. Has anyone ever tried to use the received PDF file, displayed on their mobile device, as a permit when checked?

Last fall, I tried to print a permit at the Pioneer Lodge, and their computers were down. The computer at the motel reception desk didn't recognize PDF files (really?!?), so I couldn't print the permit. I opened it in my iPhone, and took it along through whichever canyon it was. If we got stopped & checked, I assumed it would do the job. Yes, no, maybe so?

In Tom's world (not like Zion cares), the 'permit' exists once you have made it. Printing it out and carrying it with you is a detail. Yes, save the pdf file for proof. The point is you obtained the permit. That is the requirement. It is entirely possible for the rangers to have 100% of the permits on THEIR person, when they go check permits. "I had trouble printing it out" does not mean you don't have a permit. If they so golly gee gosh darn want to see your permit, why don't THEY print it out. It exists in THEIR database.

Tom :moses:

[nelsonccc]

My friend, has successfully been poaching canyons in Zion for years. If you're not doing Pine Creek, the Subway, or Keyhole it's a cakewalk.....so I hear anyways. I know he poached Spry, Behunin, and Mystery last year. I know that when he poached Imlay a few years ago he got stopped at the end of the paved walk and asked for a permit. He had a long conversation with them that he did not need a permit to day hike the narrows and that he did not need to show them anything since they had only stopped him because of his pack. He did not get a ticket. A friend of mine poached Das Boot/Subway every fall. Once, He was near the top of the hike out when he saw a ranger sitting at the edge in the trees checking permits of the party ahead of him. He backtracked and spent the next two hours route finding a way to the parking lot farther down the trail. He said it sucked and in hind sight he should have just taken the ticket.

I've been doing canyons in Zion regularly since 2000 and I've only had my permit checked a few times, mostly in the Pine creek parking lot. Once I had it checked in Mystery, but this was after we caught up to two rangers who were a bit miffed when I asked if we could play through.

I personally would have no problem poaching canyons in Zion, especially since I mostly do the ones of the beaten path.

[sarahlizzy]

most people at the desk stop playing 20 questions with me when they know what I'm talking about. a couple of them are real cool and helpful.



Walking in soaking wet, carrying a rope bag and wearing a climbing harness with a load of gear hanging from it yesterday possibly contributed towards being asked few questions when getting today's Keyhole permit :haha:

[Don]

One time, I only had a permit for Das Boot but exited out the Subway anyway. Was planning to just play dumb if caught; 'I thought this permit was for the whole thing...' But didn't get caught.
I don't feel guilty about it. :haha:

[Iceaxe]

One time, I only had a permit for Das Boot but exited out the Subway anyway.

FWIW: Better to just pick up a Subway permit and use the alternate entrance (Das Boot). It's not like there is an officially approved entrance you have to use to do the Subway. I've never picked up a Das Boot permit and never will.....

The problem with Das Boot is folks started asking for that permit by name and the rangers comply by adding Das Boot to the permit list.

Canyoneers have no one to blame but themselves for getting Das Boot added to the permit list. Das Boot is just a fancy name for a slight variation to The Subway.

Solution.... don't be a dumbass.... be careful what permit you ask for. Use commonsense when picking up permits for a variation of a common trade route.

[Don]

FWIW: Better to just pick up a Subway permit and use the alternate entrance (Das Boot). It's not like there is an officially approved entrance you have to use to do the Subway. I've never picked up a Das Boot permit and never will.....

The problem with Das Boot is folks started asking for that permit by name and the rangers comply by adding Das Boot to the permit list.

Canyoneers have no one to blame but themselves for getting Das Boot added to the permit list. Das Boot is just a fancy name for a slight variation to The Subway.

Solution.... don't be a dumbass.... be careful what permit you ask for. Use commonsense when picking up permits for a variation of a common trade route.

Yeah, makes sense but there were no Subway permits available so we just rode out our Das Boot permit. :naughty:

[french_de]

FWIW: Better to just pick up a Subway permit and use the alternate entrance (Das Boot). It's not like there is an officially approved entrance you have to use to do the Subway. I've never picked up a Das Boot permit and never will.....

The problem with Das Boot is folks started asking for that permit by name and the rangers comply by adding Das Boot to the permit list.

Canyoneers have no one to blame but themselves for getting Das Boot added to the permit list. Das Boot is just a fancy name for a slight variation to The Subway.

Solution.... don't be a dumbass.... be careful what permit you ask for. Use commonsense when picking up permits for a variation of a common trade route.
Yes, Das Boot is on the Backcountry Reservations System under "Upper Left Fork (Das Boot)(6)". When we exited the Subway last year there were rangers at the exit trailhead. They wanted to see my permit for the Subway and also wanted to know if we had gone thru Das Boot and if so did I have a permit for it. I never mentioned DAS Boot to them, they brought it up twice while we talked.

[Iceaxe]

Yes, Das Boot is on the Backcountry Reservations System under "Upper Left Fork (Das Boot)(6)". When we exited the Subway last year there were rangers at the exit trailhead. They wanted to see my permit for the Subway and also wanted to know if we had gone thru Das Boot and if so did I have a permit for it. I never mentioned DAS Boot to them, they brought it up twice while we talked.

The biggest problem is rules get made in the NP system and two years later no one understands why the original rule was made and what it's intent was.... the rangers just keep blinding enforcing the rule because it's in their rulebook.

For the record.... Originally Das Boot was a separate permit for those that wanted to exit up Russell Gulch and not do the Subway. This permit was added at the request of the canyoneering community. The idea was that under this system Das Boot only permits would not count against Subway permits.....

The original Das Boot permit was a win-win deal for everyone that has turned into a permit nightmare....

[restrac2000]

Getting into the nitty-gritty here:

Poaching and civil disobedience may look the same but seem to have different intentions. Poaching is intentionally done in a clandestine way to avoid contact with authority; a poacher may have a philosophical problem with the law but doesn't directly seek political change through their actions. CD traditionally involves illegal activities but they are most often done in an open, honest way. You don't have to intentionally attract the attention of authorities, but you also don't avoid them when a confrontation appears. Most of its success and power comes through direct interaction with authority.

So for those of you who hide or walk the other way when you see Rangers while illegally in Zion NP's backcountry, you are simply poaching but not embracing the long tradition of CD. For those who ignore the permit system and don't avoid Rangers when doing so, more power to you. Either way, best of luck and hope you have the outcomes you want.

Phillip