I'd Do Two ATCs at the Same Time Man.

[xxnitsuaxx]

Can someone please show me a thread that explains how to set up a rappel using two ATCs? I've seen it discussed and am curious but can't find a thread. Also - please use the condescending photo showing the arrow clicking on the "search threads" button.

Gracias,
Austin

[jiveassmother]

Here is my attempt at adding a pic of tandem ATC's.

[Felicia]

Interesting...why would you use this set-up?
:popcorn:

[trackrunner]

a lot of friction when doing a tandem rappel or rappelling with a victim connect to you.

even seen the set up to rappel with a lot of friction going down heaps, not see more people add friction other ways for heaps or other long free hang rappels

[Cirrus2000]

As an air traffic controller, I'm planning to avoid you for a while, Austin.

[ddavis]

I have used this kind of set up (with a shorter sling for the second rappel device) for the 1st rappel in Englestead Canyon. I liked it - The right amount of friction during the entire rappel, with no bounce and a good feed of the rope. A lot of people use a Pirhana on long rappels, so they can change their friction on the fly, but I don't like Pirhana's (can't get the friction low enough for a smooth feed).

[ratagonia]

I have used this kind of set up (with a shorter sling for the second rappel device) for the 1st rappel in Englestead Canyon. I liked it - The right amount of friction during the entire rappel, with no bounce and a good feed of the rope. A lot of people use a Pirhana on long rappels, so they can change their friction on the fly, but I don't like Pirhana's (can't get the friction low enough for a smooth feed).

I've tried that. Seems like for my hefty 190 lbs, two ATC-XPs set on the LOW friction side, on an 8mm rope was plenty of friction. AS SHOWN, two ATC-XPs on the high friction side seems like would be TOO MUCH...

Experience?

Tom :moses:

[jiveassmother]

There are more ways to add friction for a long rappel than I have fingers and toes, this is just one of those ways. I have not needed to use this method yet, but I do keep it in my toolbox. It is mostly for a two person load, like if I had a buddy that was fine except that he burned his hands and couldn't grab the rope and I didn't want to lower him for some reason. . :mrgreen:

[Sombeech]

effin A

[ddavis]

For me, anyway, two atc's on the high friction side was too much friction. One high, one low was also too much. I liked them both on the low friction side.

[xxnitsuaxx]

effin A


Thanks for picking up on that

[oldno7]

I've never used 2 ATC's--but, 2-8's work well.

[Bo_Beck]

As an air traffic controller, I'm planning to avoid you for a while, Austin.
:roflol::roflol::roflol:

[Brian in SLC]

I've tried that. Seems like for my hefty 190 lbs, two ATC-XPs set on the LOW friction side, on an 8mm rope was plenty of friction. AS SHOWN, two ATC-XPs on the high friction side seems like would be TOO MUCH...

Experience?

I used a single B-52 and leg munter on English Dead on a single 8mm. Not free hanging, so, good.

On Heaps, I much prefer stacking two ATC's. Seems to be perfect friction for me. I don't think I've used the ATC pro's in that configuration, though (the older ATC sans "pro). I'd probably go top low, bottom high friction on a single 8mm. Depends on which rope, though.

-Brian in SLC

[Iceaxe]

I've stacked two ATC's before on Heaps and the 300' stunt rap at the end of Knotted Rope. The setup worked really well. What surprised me is how smooth the rappel becomes.... for me it was much smoother then something like a Piranha with friction dialed in. I used about a 12" leash for the upper ATC.

[DWayne27]

Kurt - looks like the top 8 is rigged "canyon mode"? Would both 8s rigged standard have been too much friction? Or am I not seeing the picture right? And what is going on between your 8 and your wifes? Something attached to your short tether?

[oldno7]

Duanne
My wife would be flattered that you thought our daughter was her, they do look a lot alike.
Friction will always be dependent upon, weight, rope diameter, rappel distance, etc. It likely won't work out just the same for everyone.
This rap is 100', the last 30ish is free. This setup was a little too much friction. I attach the short side of my spelegyca around the long side so it doesn't interfere when ascending. There are no other connections between my daughter and myself. Her 8 is just hanging from her belay loop. Hope that helps.

[Brian in SLC]

This setup was a little too much friction. I attach the short side of my spelegyca around the long side so it doesn't interfere when ascending. There are no other connections between my daughter and myself. Her 8 is just hanging from her belay loop. Hope that helps.

That's a great picture!

Curious if you use a back up to the rappel or not? Autoblock?

[oldno7]

Hi Brian
I don't use a backup--- not a bad idea though. Lots of variables.

[Brian in SLC]

Hi Brian
I don't use a backup--- not a bad idea though. Lots of variables.

Uhh, lots of responsibility!

I'd be a little wary of doing or practising a pick off without some sort of back up, but, if you rig on the side of too much friction...that'd be better'n nuttin'.

I rarely back up a rappel. Probably should at least get more used to it...good skill to be able to deploy if need be, and, a pick off would be a must for me. I wouldn't want to be responsible for someone else's safety without some back up.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[DWayne27]

Ah daughter... OK. Makes sense. It didnt quite look like your wife, but enough like her, and I just assumed you dont tandem rappel with too many other women. But hey, I dont judge

[xxnitsuaxx]

As an air traffic controller, I'm planning to avoid you for a while, Austin.

No offense Kev, but you're a little big and hairy for me. How would you feel about putting on a blonde wig though...?

[ratagonia]

Kurt - looks like the top 8 is rigged "canyon mode"? Would both 8s rigged standard have been too much friction? Or am I not seeing the picture right? And what is going on between your 8 and your wifes? Something attached to your short tether?

Hey Kurt -

you should try the regular figure 8 using a Petzl OK oval. In the pic, you can see the 'figure-8-levering-on the biner' effect on that William. In the rare cases I use a regular figure 8, I find the locking Oval works much smoother. Give it a try.

Tom :moses:

[hank moon]

Hey Kurt -

you should try the regular figure 8 using a Petzl OK oval. In the pic, you can see the 'figure-8-levering-on the biner' effect on that William. In the rare cases I use a regular figure 8, I find the locking Oval works much smoother. Give it a try.

Tom :moses:

Tom, I'm not seeing what you are seeing...where is the leverage issue? I DO see that the upper 8 appears to be rigged oddly, providing minimal friction (less than "canyon mode").

[ratagonia]

Tom, I'm not seeing what you are seeing...where is the leverage issue? I DO see that the upper 8 appears to be rigged oddly, providing minimal friction (less than "canyon mode").

Yes, it actually looks like it is 'reverse canyon mode' (ie, the rope is away from the gate side of the biner), but that is what I am talking about.

On an HMS biner, especially one with a long horizontal bar like the William, my observation has been that when loaded, the Figure 8 small hole often CAMS on the biner horizontal bar, with the rope running some way aways from the body of the Figure 8 - as shown. Results in less friction.

Seems like with a lot of biners, regular figure 8s often grab an odd configuration upon being loaded. One of these is the famous 'break the gate off, fall to your death' scenario, but there are other, more-likely undesirable configurations. Using an OK (locking) Oval seems to mostly eliminate this problem.

Tom :moses:

[hank moon]

Yes, it actually looks like it is 'reverse canyon mode' (ie, the rope is away from the gate side of the biner), but that is what I am talking about.

On an HMS biner, especially one with a long horizontal bar like the William, my observation has been that when loaded, the Figure 8 small hole often CAMS on the biner horizontal bar, with the rope running some way aways from the body of the Figure 8 - as shown. Results in less friction.

Seems like with a lot of biners, regular figure 8s often grab an odd configuration upon being loaded. One of these is the famous 'break the gate off, fall to your death' scenario, but there are other, more-likely undesirable configurations. Using an OK (locking) Oval seems to mostly eliminate this problem.

Tom :moses:

OK, i thought you might be talking about the latter, more serious problem (detailed HERE (http://tinyurl.com/2aqv5dd)). Kurt, what is the advantage of 'reverse canyon mode'?

[ratagonia]

OK, i thought you might be talking about the latter, more serious problem (detailed HERE (http://tinyurl.com/2aqv5dd)). Kurt, what is the advantage of 'reverse canyon mode'?

Yeah like that. The ol' break the gate off fall to your death thing.

When reading that article before, my focus has always been on Neville's taking every opportunity to take cheap shots at Black Diamond.

Odd that he doesn't reach the conclusion that using a regular figure 8 rappel device is not a good idea... that is the conclusion I reach.

Tom :moses:

[moab mark]

Hank thanks for that article. I am not an FOE user but I bought one of the BOD harnesses and did have concerns on how the harness loads the carabiner.. The waist strap seems to put pressure on the screwgate. I also thought it was hard to rig my pirana. I now use a large rapide and then clip the biner to it. Those of you that use a BOD do you just use a Biner?

[Iceaxe]

I now use a large rapide and then clip the biner to it. Those of you that use a BOD do you just use a Biner?

Doesn't using a large rapide (essentially creating a belay loop?) defeat the main advantage (easy on/easy off) of using a BD BOD to begin with?

When using the BD BOD (my favorite harness for canyons) I just use a large biner no matter what rappel device I'm using. YMMV

[moab mark]

It actually works quite well. I leave the rapide on the leg loop and then just pull it up and put the waist strap thru it before putting thru buckle. Can then remove biner and device when downclimbing etc.

[Iceaxe]

It actually works quite well. I leave the rapide on the leg loop and then just pull it up and put the waist strap thru it before putting thru buckle. Can then remove biner and device when downclimbing etc.

BD makes a harness just like you are taking, I think they call it the the Coulior. The harness without the belay loop is actually the BD Alpine Bod (The Bod has a belay loop). The coulior is just the Apline Bod with a belay loop sewn to the diaper loop.... why not just buy that harness instead? I'd prefer to have a sewn belay loop over a big rapide....

[ratagonia]

BD makes a harness just like you are taking, I think they call it the the Coulior. The harness without the belay loop is actually the BD Alpine Bod (The Bod has a belay loop). The coulior is just the Apline Bod with a belay loop sewn to the diaper loop.... why not just buy that harness instead? I'd prefer to have a sewn belay loop over a big rapide....

The CURRENT Bod has a belay loop. That is new for it.

The CURRENT Alp Bod has no belay loop - but it does if you buy it in Europe.

I have worn the Alpine Bod, sir, and I can tell you that the Couloir is NO Alpine Bod!!

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

It actually works quite well. I leave the rapide on the leg loop and then just pull it up and put the waist strap thru it before putting thru buckle. Can then remove biner and device when downclimbing etc.

I do the same, or at least something similar. I use a 10mm Aluminum rapide on the leg loop strap and thread the waistbelt through it.

And then, when using the Pirana, it works so much better if the Pirana lays flat. On my normal harness (BD Momentum AL), I add a 10mm alum rapide to the belay loop, and put the Pirana biner in that. On the Alp Bod, I use a small locking biner for another link so the Pirana lies flat.

Tom :moses:

[oldno7]

Hey Kurt -

you should try the regular figure 8 using a Petzl OK oval. In the pic, you can see the 'figure-8-levering-on the biner' effect on that William. In the rare cases I use a regular figure 8, I find the locking Oval works much smoother. Give it a try.

Tom :moses:
Tom
I'm sure you are correct about the oval, I always have the Williams on my long tether for ease of clipping in to anchors, ascending, etc. So it is by default that it is what I use on a tandem rappel.

Hank
I used several different options(on a low angle slab)fig. 8 standard, fig. 8 regular canyon, and this reverse canyon mode. With the settup I use, I found the friction in this configuration to be slightly less than in canyon mode, as you know, the upper device requires a very slight amount of friction and this seemed to work.(on this rappel, on this rope, with the weight of us 2) I couldn't see any potential problems when we were testing, so I used this configuration and it still had me feeding rope on about the upper 1/3 as I recall.(did this last year)
Someone lighter than me might require more friction on the upper device, but I think the rappellers weight on the upper device keeps it in place quite well with very little friction.

[oval]

BD makes a harness just like you are taking, I think they call it the the Coulior. The harness without the belay loop is actually the BD Alpine Bod (The Bod has a belay loop). The coulior is just the Apline Bod with a belay loop sewn to the diaper loop.... why not just buy that harness instead? I'd prefer to have a sewn belay loop over a big rapide....

I've got the coulior, but I use it for glacier stuff. It's thinner material than the Bod/AlpineBod, and it doesn't have a full leg loop, just a posterior one. I don't think it'd stand up for canyoneering, though I do intend to give it a shot since I don't make it up to Washington as much as I want to, heh.