Canyoneering Credentials

[rcwild]

Tom, you might want to reconcile your bios. The one on ZAC says you started canyoneering in 1999, which jives with the two years experience you had when you attended my basic course in 2001. But the bio in the back of your book, published in 2006, says you've been exploring the canyons of Zion for 20 years. Typo?

[ratagonia]

Tom, you might want to reconcile your bios. The one on ZAC says you started canyoneering in 1999, which jives with the two years experience you had when you attended my basic course in 2001. But the bio in the back of your book, published in 2006, says you've been exploring the canyons of Zion for 20 years. Typo?

Technical canyoneering - started 1999. Non-technical canyons in Zion - first trip 1986. No typo. The two statements are both true.

T

[rcwild]

Technical canyoneering - started 1999. Non-technical canyons in Zion - first trip 1986. No typo. The two statements are both true.

Just like Shane. You guys have even more in common than I realized.

Consider rewriting this line on your ZAC bio: "I have been exploring canyons, leading trips, and avoiding epics (mostly) since 1999." You should use 1986.

As it's written now, compared to the line in your book bio -- "Tom Jones has been exploring the canyons of Zion for 20 years." -- it's impossible to distinguish between your non-technical and technical experience. I'm not the first to notice the discrepancy.

[Brian in SLC]

Just like Shane. You guys have even more in common than I realized.

Ha! Nice zinger angry red head. Now where's your doppleganger photo at...


As it's written now, compared to the line in your book bio -- "Tom Jones has been exploring the canyons of Zion for 20 years." -- it's impossible to distinguish between your non-technical and technical experience. I'm not the first to notice the discrepancy.

The book, I seem to recall, has both technical and non technical routes. His ZAC bio would only be for technical?

[Cirrus2000]

:facepalm:

[ratagonia]

Just like Shane. You guys have even more in common than I realized.

Consider rewriting this line on your ZAC bio: "I have been exploring canyons, leading trips, and avoiding epics (mostly) since 1999." You should use 1986.

As it's written now, compared to the line in your book bio -- "Tom Jones has been exploring the canyons of Zion for 20 years." -- it's impossible to distinguish between your non-technical and technical experience. I'm not the first to notice the discrepancy.

Maybe you should be working on your book, Rich, rather than picking nits with other people's work.

:moses:

[Brian in SLC]

Rich, aka Tron Guy!

34457

Guess you gave up the mountain man outfit?

Har har.

[Pubalz]

I think that suit is just a little to tight or maybe its painted on :lol8:

[rcwild]

Ha! Nice zinger angry red head.

Brian, you were mistaken to assume I meant that as a zinger. It just struck me as I read Tom's reply just how much they have in common. Think about it ...

They have both been "exploring canyons" for 20-ish years. When discrepancies in their bios are questioned, they both have the same explanation - They've been doing technical canyons since the late 90's and have been doing non-technical canyons for 20-ish years.

They have both done many many canyons in Utah, including quite a few first descents.

They both made names for themselves peddling canyon beta and have published beta online and in guidebooks.

There are people pissed off at both of them for publishing beta for canyons they promised not to and others pissed because neither of them gave any credit in their books to those who told them about certain canyons.

They have both promoted Zion as the "mecca of American canyoneering" and both blame the proliferation of bolts (and not the proliferation of beta) as the major contributing cause to over-crowding in canyons. And they both complain that "their friends" (they are both very well-connected) at Zion NPS are incompetent land managers.

They are both engineers with very good problem-solving and technical canyoneering skills.

They both started out as hardcore PRO bolt and both changed their positions when pressured by the SCC. They have gone on to become very hardcore ANTI bolt and have successfully descended some very difficult canyons sans bolts (as long as they brought someone along to serve as rope gun).

I have been told at various times by various people here on Bogley that they are the two most technically competent canyoneers in the U.S.

Indeed, they have much in common and much to be proud about. They have come a far piece over the past few years.

[ratagonia]

Brian, you were mistaken to assume I meant that as a zinger. It just struck me as I read Tom's reply just how much they have in common. Think about it ...

They have both been "exploring canyons" for 20-ish years. When discrepancies in their bios are questioned, they both have the same explanation - They've been doing technical canyons since the late 90's and have been doing non-technical canyons for 20-ish years.

They have both done many many canyons in Utah, including quite a few first descents.

They both made names for themselves peddling canyon beta and have published beta online and in guidebooks.

There are people pissed off at both of them for publishing beta for canyons they promised not to and others pissed because neither of them gave any credit in their books to those who told them about certain canyons.

They have both promoted Zion as the "mecca of American canyoneering" and both blame the proliferation of bolts (and not the proliferation of beta) as the major contributing cause to over-crowding in canyons. And they both complain that "their friends" (they are both very well-connected) at Zion NPS are incompetent land managers.

They are both engineers with very good problem-solving and technical canyoneering skills.

They both started out as hardcore PRO bolt and both changed their positions when pressured by the SCC. They have gone on to become very hardcore ANTI bolt and have successfully descended some very difficult canyons sans bolts (as long as they brought someone along to serve as rope gun).

I have been told at various times by various people here on Bogley that they are the two most technically competent canyoneers in the U.S.

Indeed, they have much in common and much to be proud about. They have come a far piece over the past few years.

:roflol::roflmao1::bwahaha::puke8::crazy::angryfir e::vader::banana::roll_lol::lame:

[ratagonia]

The book, I seem to recall, has both technical and non technical routes. His ZAC bio would only be for technical?

Bingo. Give that man a cookie!

Tom

[Scott P]

Technical canyoneering - started 1999. Non-technical canyons in Zion - first trip 1986.


The rest of this thread is garbage, but I just realized that I started doing canyon in Zion before Tom. :bootyshake: I never knew that. Now I feel extra special. 34497

[MSchasch]

http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m423/arteest90/inNout.gif

[Iceaxe]

Credentials = backstage pass that allows groupies to meet the talent.

[Don]

The rest of this thread is garbage, but I just realized that I started doing canyon in Zion before Tom. :bootyshake: I never knew that. Now I feel extra special. 34497

Oh, hell yeah. I did Orderville in scouts, that would have been '86 or '87 maybe. I'm going to drop the bullshit humility about being a beginner and start calling myself and old pro. :naughty:

[ratagonia]

Brian, you were mistaken to assume I meant that as a zinger. It just struck me as I read Tom's reply just how much they have in common. Think about it ...


Anywhere else in the Canyoneering Universe, being likened to Gandalf the Grey would be a dire insult. Here on Bogley - Why, thank you Rich. But really, Shane is much better at telling a story than I am.

Tom :moses:

[Scott Card]

http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m423/arteest90/innout.gif x2
:facepalm: x2

[Spidey]

What all of you grey beards need to realize, is that you have long since been passed by.:nod: By who you ask, the younger stronger and better looking canyoneers that have no Bios, and are far less cantankerous. :fitz::cool2: And besides my BIO is bigger than yours.:bootyshake:

[Iceaxe]

I have a lot of fun exploring slots.... and that's the only Bio that is important to me.... :2thumbs:

I'm sure Rich remembers what it was like to actually do canyons.... back in the good old days when he would occasionally venture into a slot instead of hanging at the lodge/hotel all day drinking adult beverages....... :friday:

[forum8fox]

:lol8::haha::popcorn: Entertaining to say the least, I like spideys post the best... I concur...:naughty:

[carverbc]

Spidey and Jason, you guys are good I admit. 'Riding the cutting edge of the sport, I agree. But, while I'll grant you the younger (although I need to see some ID) I beg to differ on the stronger, better looking and less cantankerous. Insert Canyoneering into the race track. I'd put my money on the Grey Beards (with Tom leading the pack) anyday. But, I acknowledge my bias; I have a few grey hairs myself.

[Spidey]

Spidey and Jason, you guys are good I admit. 'Riding the cutting edge of the sport, I agree. But, while I'll grant you the younger (although I need to see some ID) I beg to differ on the stronger, better looking and less cantankerous. Insert Canyoneering into the race track. I'd put my money on the Grey Beards (with Tom leading the pack) anyday. But, I acknowledge my bias; I have a few grey hairs myself.

Them's fightin words. :nono: At very least I hear a challenge. Very well I accept on behalf of the younger, stronger, and less cantankerous canyoneers. We will meet the grey beards for a race through any canyon in any place, any time. Grey beards led by whomever they choose can even pick the venue. Let's lay down some ground rules. What should the age limit be for the grey beards? What should the age limit be for the punks? Again since I am making the official challenge the grey beards can pick the venue. :fitz: Also how much of a head start are we required to give the grey beards?:bootyshake::lol8: Spidey anxiously awaiting acceptance of my formal challenge.

[carverbc]

Dear, dear Spidey,
How quick you are to jump at a percieved gauntlet toss! Remember the story of your childhood (not so very long ago in fact), The Tortoise and The Hare? Beware. Since I am the only“Grey Beard” in the conversation here and you seem solo in representing the Young and The Restless, maybe you and I should take this to the mat, just the two of us. Let’s say………Indian Leg Wrestling? Those are the terms, the where and when I leave to fate. I don’t want to diminish the experience of sharing a canyon with you by making it a competitive sport. Hope to do that some time. ‘Missed you on this last one.

[Spidey]

Good point Jenny where is everyone else, I accept your Indian leg wrestle challenge. I look forward to doing a canyon with you as well, competitive or otherwise :lol8:. When we get to know each other better you will find I am very quick to pick up any gauntlet that get's thrown down, sideways or any other way. I was totally bummed I had to miss this last outing, I will get out with you sometime soon. I still maintain my challenge to all grey beards. YOUR TEAM VS. MINE! NOW LET'S DO THIS!:fitz:

P.S. Remember Jenny when we meet we have a leg wrestle that must be dealt with.:lol8:

[carverbc]

Spidey: "Remember Jenny when we meet we have a leg wrestle that must be dealt with.."

Yes, I will remember this. 'Hope it happens before the knees are filled with arthritis (yours). :lol8:

You, remember; at this point, I do not represent a "team". I was only sticking up for a friend (tho' he does not need it). And, I don't have the beard, just the grey.

[ratagonia]

Good point Jenny where is everyone else, I accept your Indian leg wrestle challenge. I look forward to doing a canyon with you as well, competitive or otherwise :lol8:. When we get to know each other better you will find I am very quick to pick up any gauntlet that get's thrown down, sideways or any other way. I was totally bummed I had to miss this last outing, I will get out with you sometime soon. I still maintain my challenge to all grey beards. YOUR TEAM VS. MINE! NOW LET'S DO THIS!:fitz:

P.S. Remember Jenny when we meet we have a leg wrestle that must be dealt with.:lol8:

Okely Dokely....

Very simple. First team through wins. Team members can choose which team to identify themselves with.

Cypress Canyon. Go!

T :lol8:

[Spidey]

Done, who's on my team?:naughty:

[carverbc]

Okely Dokely....

Very simple. First team through wins. Team members can choose which team to identify themselves with.

Cypress Canyon. Go!

T :lol8:

OK, there's a gauntlet toss that I can get on board with. Race on! Chris Hood and Kev are on MY team (they have to have at least one grey hair...somewhere). Go!

[Cirrus2000]

OK, there's a gauntlet toss that I can get on board with. Race on! Chris Hood and Kev are on MY team (they have to have at least one grey hair...somewhere). Go!

Sweet! Yep - lots of gray hairs on me!

And it's funny, Spidey says he's not on the cantankerous squad, but if you count up the:

:fitz: and the :bootyshake: emoticons

who keeps using all those? :haha:


:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[northernoutpost]

Cypress Creek?? Should be a bit bigger, methinks-like a IV V4 A4-strictly speaking. Maybe something with a linked big air sequence.

If you're going to use me, Jenny, I suggest that the route of choice should involve lots of steep, extremely brushy uphill on the approach. My talents trend more towards Ram than Tom...:crazy:

-Chris H

[ratagonia]

Cypress Creek?? Should be a bit bigger, methinks-like a IV V4 A4-strictly speaking. Maybe something with a linked big air sequence.

If you're going to use me, Jenny, I suggest that the route of choice should involve lots of steep, extremely brushy uphill on the approach. My talents trend more towards Ram than Tom...:crazy:

-Chris H

Spidey gave me the choice of challenges, I chose a favorite. If it is too easy for all y'alls, you could make it harder by doing Cypress from your respective houses WITHOUT BENEFIT OF A VEHICLE. We'll allow canoes, how's that. Has the side benefit of making it harder for Spidey as well. Heck he might get shin splints or something... !!!

Tom :moses:

[Spidey]

Sweet! Yep - lots of gray hairs on me!

And it's funny, Spidey says he's not on the cantankerous squad, but if you count up the:

:fitz: and the :bootyshake: emoticons

who keeps using all those? :haha:


:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

That is all part of playing the part of the young punk poking the old bear. :fitz::lol8:

[Spidey]

It doesn't appear that anyone wants to be on my team any way so I either take you guys on solo, or if we have a quota on team members I will have to concede. Because none of the young punks are getting their crap together and getting on board.

[trackrunner]

spidey let's challenge Tom to Kol-Heap-lay trifecta all three combined in 24 hours or less.
:cool2:

[Scott Card]

Spidey, I'd play in a heart beat but you know my knees and I have a few disguised grey hairs. I am the break peddle after all. I am too old for the young team. :frustrated: However, I am sure we could put together a young allstar team from MAPLETON. Spidey, Clark, Chris, Landon. Done. :mrgreen: I volunteer to recruit, motivate, cheer, cook, car spot, rim walk, distract the other team with my blue-white legs, etc.

[carverbc]

Spidey gave me the choice of challenges, I chose a favorite. If it is too easy for all y'alls, you could make it harder by doing Cypress from your respective houses WITHOUT BENEFIT OF A VEHICLE. We'll allow canoes, how's that. Has the side benefit of making it harder for Spidey as well. Heck he might get shin splints or something... !!!

Tom :moses:

[INDENT]'Good thing the rules allow canoes. I love the No Vehicle rule but I CAN'T walk on water. YET!

[FONT=Verdana]Spidey, what's up with the lack of response from The Young Bucks and Buckettes to jump on board with you? Geeze, I

[Iceaxe]

Age and treachery will defeat youth and enthusiasm every time...

:2thumbs:

[Scott Card]

Age and treachery will defeat youth and enthusiasm every time...

:2thumbs: That is why I will consult my youthful Mapleton Homies. :haha:

[Iceaxe]

That is why I will consult my youthful Mapleton Homies. :haha:

You don't stand a chance.... you are way to much of a nice guy.... :nod:

It reminds me of the old story.... I don't have to run faster than the bear.... I just have to run faster than you.... :lol8:

[forum8fox]

I'm late to jump on board here but none the less my timing maybe impeclable.


It reminds me of the old story.... I don't have to run faster than the bear.... I just have to run faster than you.... :lol8:

On that note, I don't need to try to race some silverbacks (as I hear they prefer to grey beards), I just need to do the canyons they no longer can. This will surely provide proof that I can be a valuable asset when it comes time to go for a look at something new.

You see, my plan is not to try to fight them, but instead I'll try to work with them to see canyons still awaiting exploration. Hell maybe I could even learn a thing or two???:naughty::haha:

It's an awfully small circle to go picking fights with anyone IMO, coming from the passive, medicated guy...:mrgreen: Perhaps that's why I try to mostly keep to myself unless I have something worth bringing to the table.

[rcwild]

What all of you grey beards need to realize, is that you have long since been passed by.:nod: By who you ask, the younger stronger and better looking canyoneers that have no Bios, and are far less cantankerous. :fitz::cool2: And besides my BIO is bigger than yours.:bootyshake:

There were these two bulls - an old bull and a young bull - standing on top of a hill looking down at a valley full of cows. The young bull started getting excited. Jumping up and down, he said, "Let's run down this hill and have us one of them cows."

The old bull thought about it for a minute and said, "I have a better idea. Let's walk down and have them all."

There's a lesson in there for you, son. :haha:

Besides, us old bulls are smart enough to take you along to get us through canyons that are over our heads so we can brag about it on the internet. :cool2:

[rcwild]

I'm sure Rich remembers what it was like to actually do canyons.... back in the good old days when he would occasionally venture into a slot instead of hanging at the lodge/hotel all day drinking adult beverages....... :friday:

That's not fair, Shane. You're using e-canyoneering rules: No canyon counts unless the person posts beta, photos or a trip report. I very rarely do any of those things. In fact, I don't even read TRs. I prefer to live my adventures vicariously through myself.

Using the e-canyoneering rules, the canyon I guided on Saturday in Arizona with the Apaches doesn't count. The two short canyons outside of Rock Point I explored on Sunday with a Navajo friend don't count. The canyons I do this week here in Moab won't count. The canyons I do Friday and Saturday in North Wash with the UofU canyoneering course won't count. The canyons I do during the guide certification exam next week won't count. None of the canyons I do in California or Taiwan in July will count. Canyons later this year in Bolivia, El Salvador and hopefully, Africa ... None of them will count.

It just isn't fair. :cry1:

[Scott Card]

There were these two bulls - an old bull and a young bull - standing on top of a hill looking down at a valley full of cows. The young bull started getting excited. Jumping up and down, he said, "Let's run down this hill and have us one of them cows."

The old bull thought about it for a minute and said, "I have a better idea. Let's walk down and have them all."

There's a lesson in there for you, son. :haha:

:lol8::2thumbs:


Besides, us old bulls are smart enough to take you along to get us through canyons that are over our heads so we can brag about it on the internet. :cool2: Great.... my secret is out. :haha: