ZAC is really branching out

[moab mark]

Zion Adventure is really branching out.

http://www.zionadventures.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&id=5&Itemid=377

I called to get some info on Powell but they must be busy, no answer.

Mark

[Iceaxe]

It looks like a lot more then Lake Powell has been added to ZAC's menu....

Monterrey Canyoning Details Carousel
North Wash Canyoneering Details Carousel
Escalante Classics Details
Joshua Tree canyon Skills Clinics
Escalante Classics Canyoneering
Slot Canyons of North Wash

:popcorn:

[EvergreenDean]

The Powell trip is out of control. Went three weeks ago and it blew my mind. This is NOT for public consumption. I thought about doing a trip report but JZ and the crew lectured us about how sacred this area is and I agree. 100% ghosting techniques, massive sequenced keepers, no anchor materials except for sand. If you are willing to fork over the dough and go with these guys it is the holy grail of canyoneering in my opinion. Tom cryptically eluded to these canyons last fall but I never expected to see them as soon as I did. Since this cat is now out of the bag on Bogley, maybe I can do a TR without giving enough specifics to open the flood gates to those foolish enough to try it on their own. Go with these guys or make sure your life insurance is paid up before hand. :nono:

[moab mark]

The Powell trip is out of control. Went three weeks ago and it blew my mind. This is NOT for public consumption. I thought about doing a trip report but JZ and the crew lectured us about how sacred this area is and I agree. 100% ghosting techniques, massive sequenced keepers, no anchor materials except for sand. If you are willing to fork over the dough and go with these guys it is the holy grail of canyoneering in my opinion. Tom cryptically eluded to these canyons last fall but I never expected to see them as soon as I did. Since this cat is now out of the bag on Bogley, maybe I can do a TR without giving enough specifics to open the flood gates to those foolish enough to try it on their own. Go with these guys or make sure your life insurance is paid up before hand. :nono:

How about just some pictures?

[ratagonia]

The Powell trip is out of control. Went three weeks ago and it blew my mind. This is NOT for public consumption. I thought about doing a trip report but JZ and the crew lectured us about how sacred this area is and I agree. 100% ghosting techniques, massive sequenced keepers, no anchor materials except for sand. If you are willing to fork over the dough and go with these guys it is the holy grail of canyoneering in my opinion. Tom cryptically eluded to these canyons last fall but I never expected to see them as soon as I did. Since this cat is now out of the bag on Bogley, maybe I can do a TR without giving enough specifics to open the flood gates to those foolish enough to try it on their own. Go with these guys or make sure your life insurance is paid up before hand. :nono:

There are extremely motivated and effective sleuths prowling this website and the Internets in general. So, yes, some pictures are good, but not ones that "give it away". No camp pictures, no approach pictures, not exiting the canyon pictures.

Shane will still puzzle it out, but...

You've come a long way in a short time, Dean. Good to see.

Tom :moses:

[moab mark]

There are extremely motivated and effective sleuths prowling this website and the Internets in general. So, yes, some pictures are good, but not ones that "give it away". No camp pictures, no approach pictures, not exiting the canyon pictures.

Shane will still puzzle it out, but...

You've come a long way in a short time, Dean. Good to see.

Tom :moses:

How much does this once in a lifetime experience cost?

[ratagonia]

How much does this once in a lifetime experience cost?

If you have to ask... Is pricey - http://tinyurl.com/2bjtzk5

Nick is still working on the website... some pages still as placeholders.

Tom

[moab mark]

$425 per day 3 days 10% discount if bring own food and boat.

[EvergreenDean]

Thanks Tom. I owe you a lot. Will post a few pics as teasers..no canyon names either. As far as being "once in a lifetime", well its a lot like a Grand Canyon float trip. You say that and then realize you must return, no matter what it takes. I will be back.

[Brian in SLC]

The Powell trip is out of control. Went three weeks ago and it blew my mind. This is NOT for public consumption. I thought about doing a trip report but JZ and the crew lectured us about how sacred this area is and I agree.

Kind of had to chuckle when I read this...

Yeah, I guess private guiding is not "public consumption". Unless they guide the "public"...ha ha.

And, yeah, reminds me of how JZ used to refer to the Oak Creek forks too. Before they bolted the beejeezus out of them.

The more I think about it, as a consumer, when you buy something, you're consuming a product. On public land. Hence, therefore, fit for "public consumption".

Folks are so lucky to be able to pay someone to have their adventure for them...

Does sound like a situation soon to be "out of control"...guiding "secret" canyons. Wow. Such a nifty use of public land.

I'm sure continued rubbing folks' noses in it will help a whole bunch too.

Ha ha ha.

-Brian in SLC

[EvergreenDean]

Hey, they did years of exploration and development of gear specific to making these canyons accessible without disrupting the pristine condition of them. I am not rubbing anyone's nose in it. Just saying that I appreciate all the hard work that has gone into creating this opportunity and I personally don't want it to change. As soon as folks who do not understand the techniques and gear they are using to run these canyons get in there, they will get bolted up and/or people will get hurt or killed. They put in the years of experimentation and development, they have earned the right to keep them secret. I know it won't last forever but I won't be the one to spoil it for now. I have my special places in Colorado that I won't share either. One of them used to be Conundrum Hot Spring long ago. Now the 13 campsites around Conundrum have human feces everywhere, you can't even get a spot there unless you hike up mid-week, more rules and regs have been forced on us. I have no problem with folks keeping a few secrets. Either compensate them for their R&D of this area and learn their methods or spend many years figuring it out for yourself. No one is stopping you. I smell some sour grapes...

[ratagonia]

Hey, they did years of exploration and development of gear specific to making these canyons accessible without disrupting the pristine condition of them. I am not rubbing anyone's nose in it. Just saying that I appreciate all the hard work that has gone into creating this opportunity and I personally don't want it to change. As soon as folks who do not understand the techniques and gear they are using to run these canyons get in there, they will get bolted up and/or people will get hurt or killed. They put in the years of experimentation and development, they have earned the right to keep them secret. I know it won't last forever but I won't be the one to spoil it for now. I have my special places in Colorado that I won't share either. One of them used to be Conundrum Hot Spring long ago. Now the 13 campsites around Conundrum have human feces everywhere, you can't even get a spot there unless you hike up mid-week, more rules and regs have been forced on us. I have no problem with folks keeping a few secrets. Either compensate them for their R&D of this area and learn their methods or spend many years figuring it out for yourself. No one is stopping you. I smell some sour grapes...

Brian is a crusty old curdmudgeon, brings out those old saws every chance he gets...

Tom :moses:

[Brian in SLC]

Brian is a crusty old curdmudgeon, brings out those old saws every chance he gets...

Always time for a new round, though, eh?

Ahhh...remember when it was just pure recreation, and not a business?

Pristine canyons from a power boat on a huge manmade reservoir...kinda funny.

At least folks have found a way to exploit that land without too much extraction...

I'd be all jealous, but, I realize I'm only 500 bucks a day from being one of the cool clients...

Seems like there should be a David Hannum (not, apparently P.T. Barnum) quote here someone...but, hey, its Friday...

Everyone have a safe and happy weekend, clients and canyoneers all.

[Scott Card]

Interestingly, not everyone wants to be a canyoneer. Some want to be just clients, have the adventure and go home and tell the tale. I see nothing wrong with either. :popcorn:

[EvergreenDean]

Interestingly, not everyone wants to be a canyoneer. Some want to be just clients, have the adventure and go home and tell the tale. I see nothing wrong with either. :popcorn:

Agreed, but these labels are not mutually exclusive. Example: Two trips with ZAC but participants were mostly skilled canyoneers with many independent trips under their belt. They just understood the value of exposure to consummate pros and places that would have been difficult to experience otherwise. Funny how ZAC makes their living guiding people, yet focuses so heavily on teaching the skills to become independent and responsible canyoneers. You either pay for a trip to get the quick fun adventure then go home, or you do it to exponentially increase your skills and knowledge, therefore becoming a "real" canyoneer. You take from it what you want but there is no shame in paying to learn. :boxing:

[Scott Card]

And I don't see anything wrong with the hybrid...Canyoneer/client. More power to ya':2thumbs:

[Jaxx]

Mabey we could get a Bogley trip down there. have 3 groups of 6 all start a different day. I assume there are atleast 18 that would like to do this. If more then we start more groups! It can be sponsored by Bogley. We just need to get our ad clicks up for funding. So everyone get clicking! At $.12 a click (I just pulled this number out of my...) we would each need to click an ad 10,833.33 times. I think its worth it though. Should we get the approval first or just start clicking away?

[Ryebrye]

Its a funny idea, but you shouldn't even joke about clicking on the ads to raise money as google will ban sites for habib invalid clicks with no reasonable appeal process. one of the terms of having adsense is that you NEVER try to urge your visitors to click on ads.

[EvergreenDean]

I have to learn to quit taking this bait....or stop shamelessly plugging my friends.:roll:

[oldno7]

Agreed, but these labels are not mutually exclusive. Example: Two trips with ZAC but participants were mostly skilled canyoneers with many independent trips under their belt. They just understood the value of exposure to consummate pros and places that would have been difficult to experience otherwise. Funny how ZAC makes their living guiding people, yet focuses so heavily on teaching the skills to become independent and responsible canyoneers. You either pay for a trip to get the quick fun adventure then go home, or you do it to exponentially increase your skills and knowledge, therefore becoming a "real" canyoneer. You take from it what you want but there is no shame in paying to learn. :boxing:

How long had you been canyoneering and how many canyons had you completed prior to your trip with Zac?

[rcwild]

Hey, they did years of exploration and development of gear specific to making these canyons accessible without disrupting the pristine condition of them.

Actually, they didn't, but it's great hype.

[Iceaxe]

Just a thought.... but if I paid someone $425 per day to guide my butt I'd take a lot of pictures.... and if someone told me I couldn't post my pictures or TR to the interwebs I'd tell them to kiss my ass!

Sharing your experience when you get home is a big part of what you paid for.

[Pelon1]

Since this cat is now out of the bag on Bogley, maybe I can do a TR without giving enough specifics to open the flood gates to those foolish enough to try it on their own. Go with these guys or make sure your life insurance is paid up before hand. :nono:

It does seem ZAC is really branching out!! (and its working!!)
http://tinyurl.com/326jq2e :lol8::lol8:

[oldno7]

It does seem ZAC is really branching out!! (and its working!!)
http://tinyurl.com/326jq2e :lol8::lol8:

Aww, come on now---You're not being fair. I'm sure Mr. Dean has spent years out canyoneering with hundreds of us, and after this hands on experience, he can clearly see no one has a chance of surviving in a Lake Powell canyon without the assistance of ZAC.:fitz:

[mdd]

Just a thought.... but if I paid someone $425 per day to guide my butt I'd take a lot of pictures.... and if someone told me I couldn't post my pictures or TR to the interwebs I'd tell them to kiss my ass!

Sharing your experience when you get home is a big part of what you paid for.

I agree, but I think ZAC may be more concerned with keeping rival guide companies from moving in on their turf, at least for as long as they can.

I've been curious though ever since Desert Highlight's canyons started going public. I had a chat with one of the guides at SJMG near Ouray, and he said they have to get each canyon they guide specified in their permits, they can't get a general permit for an area. They permit through the USFS. I don't know if the BLM or whoever has the same requirement, but if so aren't permits a matter of public record available to anyone who requests to see them? If so it seems easy to me to figure out where they are guiding, unless they allow super secret names.


M

*For the record I'm asking out of curiosity. I could care less if these canyons are published or not and I don't have too much interest in seeing them.

[moab mark]

Just a thought.... but if I paid someone $425 per day to guide my butt I'd take a lot of pictures.... and if someone told me I couldn't post my pictures or TR to the interwebs I'd tell them to kiss my ass!

Sharing your experience when you get home is a big part of what you paid for.

A little different twist on this. I go deep sea fishing in Florida alot and when you get on the boat the guides request to search your bags for GPS's. If you will not allow them they politely ask you to leave. They take their fishing very seriously.

[trackrunner]

I've been curious though ever since Desert Highlight's canyons started going public. I had a chat with one of the guides at SJMG near Ouray, and he said they have to get each canyon they guide specified in their permits, they can't get a general permit for an area. They permit through the USFS. I don't know if the BLM or whoever has the same requirement, but if so aren't permits a matter of public record available to anyone who requests to see them? If so it seems easy to me to figure out where they are guiding, unless they allow super secret names.


M

*For the record I'm asking out of curiosity. I could care less if these canyons are published or not and I don't have too much interest in seeing them.

seams like a reasonable conclusion to me. granted I have no idea how the permit process works with different land agencies.

[EvergreenDean]

OK, in retrospect I will re-phrase my initial statement. I am certain that there are many folks on this site that are perfectly capable of doing these canyons. I would SUGGEST learning how ZAC does them, using sandtraps and pot shots, and in many cases I am not aware of other techniques that would work without bolting, although you may know stuff I don't. Very little anchor material in there. Obstacles well beyond what I have seen and read about in other canyons, and yes I have done some tough ones...without guides. I have been canyoneering for approximately one year. I have done roughly 25-30 technical canyons and paid for exactly ONE trip...Powell. I am friends with Steve at ZAC and was invited at cost, not $425 per day. I have canyoneered with a few ZAC folks several times before but never a paying "client". I was happy to pay as I felt I owed them since I'd been hanging around for free for the last year. I think the logistics of running these canyons puts them out of most people's reach (start by owning a boat, knowing the lake, and having the technical gear mentioned above and knowledge to use it). I believe the high price they charge is not a bad value considering part of the price of admission is finding these places and potentially being able to return on your own. Try googling Centaur, Pegasus, Iron Horse canyons...you get exactly ZERO. I envy JZ and Tom, as they have found a way to make a living doing what we all love to do. I owe my friends there for introducing me to this great sport (again, as a friend of Steve's..no charge), and I want to see them succeed. I will give them my business whenever I can (renting dry suits, buying gear etc). This is a great trip, and even if you feel like I do about backpacking or snowboarding (I would NEVER think of paying someone to lead me...I do the leading), this might be an exception. Similarly, if I get an invite to get helicoptered up to Shaun White's private training area outside Silverton for a price, I would make an exception. That's on public land, too, but a
closely kept secret. Does that clear thing up? :targetpractice:

I started to post pics Friday but realized my faves were taken by others on the trip. I will get their permission so you can see the best ones.

So, are you saying they are lying when they tell me they've been exploring these for several years and there are roughly 30 people on this globe that are out there running them? Have I drank too much of the kool-aid?

Look forward to seeing you crusty veterans in the canyons and annoying you as I pick your brains to gain more knowledge. Pics from the arrogant "newbie" will follow soon. Anyone I led through North Wash last week willing to step up and defend me here? I'm getting hammered!

[rcwild]

Have I drank too much of the kool-aid?

Canyoneers talk a lot about beer, but kool-aid is consumed in much greater quantities.


Anyone I led through North Wash last week willing to step up and defend me here? I'm getting hammered!

Don't take any of it personally, Dean. Welcome to the canyoneering community.

[trackrunner]

Pics from the arrogant "newbie" will follow soon. Anyone I led through North Wash last week willing to step up and defend me here? I'm getting hammered!



Don't take any of it personally, Dean. Welcome to the canyoneering community.

X2

you may have change your "rookie" rank but you'll learn some posters are all bark no bite

one person called me an ignorant moron for suggesting the removal of fixed ropes in mystery because it was trash. few weeks later personally offered to loan gear free of charge to outfit some friends. so don't take it personally. they may actually be jealous

[vader]

I've been curious though ever since Desert Highlight's canyons started going public. I had a chat with one of the guides at SJMG near Ouray, and he said they have to get each canyon they guide specified in their permits, they can't get a general permit for an area. They permit through the USFS. I don't know if the BLM or whoever has the same requirement, but if so aren't permits a matter of public record available to anyone who requests to see them? If so it seems easy to me to figure out where they are guiding, unless they allow super secret names.



I think you might be onto something. I will be watching this discussion. If it goes Hush Hush then you might be right

[Spidey]

The BLM does not have a blanket policy. The specificity of your permit will vary from field office to field office. I have found that they all have very different requirements. Lake Powell is not under BLM jurisdiction. It is operated by the NRA people back in washington.

[Iceaxe]

Yes, the permits are public record and should list the location of the Lake Powell canyons ZAC is guiding.....

The first time I learned about several of Desert Highlights routes was from someone that took a look at Desert Highlights NPS file. The rival guide deal could be a problem... from what I'm told the reason that Desert Highlights did not get their Arches NP permit renewed was because several rival guide companies were also requesting permits and the new Super decided it was easier to ban commercial guiding inside the park then it was to deal with all the permit requests.

As for keeping beta secret from privateers I've found the only thing that promotes is lots of bolting. Once folks learn about a canyon that requires advanced anchor skills they go load loaded for bear..... which includes plenty of bolts to engineer their way through the route. To date the only way I've found to stop bolts from popping up on such a route is to make paint by number beta available for the difficult problems.... in other words... education works better then secerts.... YMMV....

[Iceaxe]

A little different twist on this. I go deep sea fishing in Florida alot and when you get on the boat the guides request to search your bags for GPS's. If you will not allow them they politely ask you to leave. They take their fishing very seriously.

To me.... agreeing to conditions before the fact is a totally different set of rules than being told what you can do after the fact.... I've turned down canyon beta a lot of times because the conditions and terms attached to the beta were not something I felt comfortable with.... and just like everyone else... I've been given a lot of beta that had conditions attached.... so long as it's all up front I have no problem with that....

Of course the biggest condition usually attached to canyon beta is "I didn't give this to you".... :lol8:

[Jaxx]

Its a funny idea, but you shouldn't even joke about clicking on the ads to raise money as google will ban sites for habib invalid clicks with no reasonable appeal process. one of the terms of having adsense is that you NEVER try to urge your visitors to click on ads.

So serious that I shouldn't even JOKE about it. That's pretty dramatic.

[EvergreenDean]

Aww, come on now---You're not being fair. I'm sure Mr. Dean has spent years out canyoneering with hundreds of us, and after this hands on experience, he can clearly see no one has a chance of surviving in a Lake Powell canyon without the assistance of ZAC.:fitz:

oldno7....check your bank register and you will see that you have recently been a beneficiary of my "inexperience". BTW, great training area Steve has set up at GOG. Best replication of Utah canyons I have seen out here.

[CarpeyBiggs]

you guys miss one detail... ZAC isn't guiding on lake powell NRA. they are on navajo land.

[Iceaxe]

you guys miss one detail... ZAC isn't guiding on lake powell NRA. they are on navajo land.

That might be worse..... a few years back I seem to remember a (hiking) guide ran into trouble with Aramark, the licensed lake concessionaire, for something similar. I don't know the details....

It had nothing to do with the hiking or Navajo Land.... the problem is Aramark is/was the only one permitted to load folks into a boat and guide for money..... and they didn't like the competition....

[CarpeyBiggs]

these guys aren't scrubs. they are the best guiding company in southern utah. they've done their homework. they have a BOAT permit for the lake from aramark, AND they have a GUIDING permit for the navajo land.

when they say they've spent a few years working out the logistics, that's what they mean.

bottom line - when it comes to guiding, the ZAC guys have probably put together the best canyon product available, without exaggeration. their entire product is impressive, from what I can gather. i've only been around them a few times, but the bottom line is they've got some amazing stuff they can guide down there. some of the best canyons, and they are committed to a leave no trace ethic, in canyons and at camp.

[oldno7]

oldno7....check your bank register and you will see that you have recently been a beneficiary of my "inexperience". BTW, great training area Steve has set up at GOG. Best replication of Utah canyons I have seen out here.

I know you took a course from Steve, I'm just merely pointing out that you made a "blanket" statement that is misleading.
Stating everyone will need life insurance if not with ZAC. There are a lot of capable folks on here and some--not so much.
My statement had a huge dressing of sarcasm piled on top of it. But I think you saw the light.:lol8:

Edit: Actually I'd love to do some canyons with you some day-----do you know anything about the Lake Powell area?:twisted:

[Brian in SLC]

you guys miss one detail... ZAC isn't guiding on lake powell NRA. they are on navajo land.

Aha...that rules out a bunch of terrain...

Ha ha.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Aha...that rules out a bunch of terrain...

Ha ha.

reading is fundamental... it's right there on the website.

[EvergreenDean]

I know you took a course from Steve, I'm just merely pointing out that you made a "blanket" statement that is misleading.
Stating everyone will need life insurance if not with ZAC. There are a lot of capable folks on here and some--not so much.
My statement had a huge dressing of sarcasm piled on top of it. But I think you saw the light.:lol8:

Edit: Actually I'd love to do some canyons with you some day-----do you know anything about the Lake Powell area?:twisted:

Sounds great...yeah, I regretted my quick overstated post for sure. I know enough to get back there, and I could find these again. Just need veteran help...I'm not quite there yet. The pot holes techniques were all new to me. Can one get a permit for this are on a private trip?

[moab mark]

No permit needed. Just boat and skills. Oh and beta. Don't forget the beta.

[rcwild]

No permit needed. Just boat and skills. Oh and beta. Don't forget the beta.

Not true if on Navajo land.

[moab mark]

Not true if on Navajo land.

Rich,

Enlighten me.

Mark

[trackrunner]

I believe you need a hiking permit on Navajo land?

[moab mark]

I believe you need a hiking permit on Navajo land?

Other then antelope canyon we have always been under the impression from the water it was not being enforced. Coming in over land was a different matter. If someone actually has documentation of the official rules I would like to see it. The park services site states antelope canyon and hiking by land to rainbow bridge needs a permit. But that's all it mentions.

[rcwild]

Other then antelope canyon we have always been under the impression from the water it was not being enforced. Coming in over land was a different matter. If someone actually has documentation of the official rules I would like to see it. The park services site states antelope canyon and hiking by land to rainbow bridge needs a permit. But that's all it mentions.

Recreating on Navajo land requires a permit. Probably not being enforced because they only have 26-27 rangers for the entire reservation. Just because you won't get caught doesn't make it right. The Navajo are very hospitable people, up to the point they feel we are taking advantage or disrespecting them or their land.

Don't look at the park service website for Navajo regulations or ask someone to show you documentation. Contact the nation.

http://www.navajonationparks.org/permits.htm

Read under "Areas Closed to Hiking". The reasons they cite for the closures all refer to canyoneers.

[shaggy125]

yup, $5 per person, per day to hike on the res. I think it's if you are one mile from high water mark you are supposed to have a permit? Something like that.

[n00basaurus_rex]

Manifest Destiny!

[Don]

Read under "Areas Closed to Hiking". The reasons they cite for the closures all refer to canyoneers.

"AREAS CLOSED TO HIKING
Recently, the Kaibeto Chapter community has prohibited hiking and camping in the entire area of Upper Kaibeto, Navajo Canyon, Choal Canyon, (Kaibeto Creek), Peach Wash, and Butterfly Canyon. Also, the area around the Inscription House community and Tsegi Canyon, (Dowozhiebeto and Long Canyons) are closed. These Closures are due to trespassing across residential areas, NO PERMITS, DISTRUBING LIVESTOCK, LITTERING, AND THE POSSIBLE DISTRUBANCE OF FRAGILE ARCHAEOLOGICAL RUINS"

I see canyons mentioned but not canyoneers. I see littering and distrubance [sic] of livestock or archaeological sites but no reference to canyoneers. Any chance your reading into things?

[moabmatt]

Yes, the permits are public record and should list the location of the Lake Powell canyons ZAC is guiding.....

The first time I learned about several of Desert Highlights routes was from someone that took a look at Desert Highlights NPS file. The rival guide deal could be a problem... from what I'm told the reason that Desert Highlights did not get their Arches NP permit renewed was because several rival guide companies were also requesting permits and the new Super decided it was easier to ban commercial guiding inside the park then it was to deal with all the permit requests.


From day one we've always kept a lid on the locations where we guide. Many have asked and we've always politely declined to reveal the locations. As a result we've been called names and labeled elitist. We've kept secrets not to be viewed as elitists, but to protect our livelihood. The past few years we've especially bemoaned the publishing of the canyons that we've spent years scouting and establishing. Armed with this published beta, hordes of folks, including owners of "rival companies," have flooded these canyons and caused not only significant environmental damage, but alarm from those land managers who sign our permits.



If you scan these forums you'll find many prophetic posts from me the past couple years pleading to keep these canyons off the beta sites since our relationships with land managers are unpredictable at best. Well, our worst nightmare has come true. After eleven years of guiding exemplary trips in Arches, the National Park Service pulled our permit this year, not because we were causing environmental impacts, but because they're concerned about the influx of people going into these canyons, including people armed with your beta who want to guide in the park. When asked to explain her decision to pull our permit, Superintendant Kate Cannon specifically told me that it's just easier for her to limit a commercial group in the park than a private group. WTF? That's not the right answer! Especially when we've done no wrong and almost 70% of our revenue came from guiding trips in the Park!



Yes, we are still guiding trips outside the park, but published beta is still negatively affecting us. The impacts, both environmental and social, come on like a light switch after the publication of beta. It's pretty shocking to witness. For example, we enjoyed total solitude for years in relatively obscure canyons like Granary and Pleiades - canyons we spent tons of time looking for and establishing. We specifically look to obscure areas to enjoy solitude. As soon as beta was published last year it became commonplace to wait while large groups - literally holding printouts of Shane's beta - tie up the rappels. New social trails have sprouted up all over in the overland hike between the second to last and last rap in Granary. I just talked with the BLM today and they're now imposing group size limits on commercially guided trips, but - not surprisingly - not on private groups. Ironically this was in part due to a complaint from a guide service that they had to wait two hours for a huge private group to get through the first rap in Medieval Chamber. What's a land manager to do? Well, as Kate Cannon so eloquently put it, it's easier to limit commercial groups than private groups. Ouch...



So when Jonathan spends weeks, months and years sniffing out and establishing obscure, quality canyon trips for his clients I don't blame him one bit for wanting to keep those canyons under the beta radar. I spent years doing the same thing, tried to protect my investment and create incredible experiences for my clients and was rewarded by having my income cut almost 70%. And it's not like I was making a ton of money to begin with... If anyone wants to consider us elitist for not disclosing locations, first put yourself in our shoes. I've said it many times before and I'll say it again, Shane; I like you a lot, you're fun to hang out with, I've enjoyed my time in canyons with you and hope to enjoy more with you in the future, but remember that I need permission from land managers to make money - you do not. Please remember that the next time you publish another route we've spent years establishing.

Regarding permits being public info... They are public record, to an extent. For the very reasons I've mentioned above (fears of increased environmental and social impacts from groups other than the group issued the permit) they do not generally give out that information. They will give out that info if a member of the public has reason to believe that by issuing a permit unacceptable impacts will occur. Even then you'll need to file a FOIA request (Freedom of Information Act). Keep in mind that in issuing the original permit the land managers will have already conducted a NEPA review and determined that no adverse impacts will result. So you have to have a damn convincing case of adverse impacts to get access to that info. Merely having a desire to know the location so you can hike the route without doing your own legwork is not reason enough.

[rcwild]

I see canyons mentioned but not canyoneers. I see littering and distrubance [sic] of livestock or archaeological sites but no reference to canyoneers. Any chance your reading into things?

No, Don, there's not.

I've done quite a bit of work with the Navajo Nation, including training some of their rangers and guides, and I've met quite a few of the residents who complained about the "hikers with ropes" who crossed their land and disturbed their sheep. One of Kelsey's guidebooks gave directions to a canyon near LeChee as "... turn left at mile marker XX, drive past Owen Yazzee's house and turn right ..." When I read that I wondered how many people (canyoneers) would knock on the door and ask if it was Owen Yazzee's house. Answer: a lot.

A few years ago, Navajo rangers invited the ACA to hold a rendezvous that could include some closed canyons. We were considering it until a group of well-known canyoneers started bragging about poaching canyons on the rez. Decided against the rendezvous.

[EvergreenDean]

So when Jonathan spends weeks, months and years sniffing out and establishing obscure, quality canyon trips for his clients I don't blame him one bit for wanting to keep those canyons under the beta radar.

Well put. You said what I meant, but much more concisely. No one wants to hear that from a noob like me...

[Iceaxe]

As soon as beta was published last year it became commonplace to wait while large groups - literally holding printouts of Shane's beta - tie up the rappels.

Pretty fair assessment.... but I have two questions....

1. So what's the difference between a private group having to wait for a commercially guide group to pass.... and... a commercially guided group having to wait for a private group to pass?

2. So what's the difference between private groups following routes pioneered by commercial companies.... and.... commercial companies guiding routes pioneered by privateer's?

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I fail to see where sniping at privateer's is helping your cause? Because from a land managers point of view the last group that will be regulated or shut out is the private parties.... And the easiest group to regulate or shut out is a commercial venture....

Anyhoo.... Best I can tell the land is public and belongs to all of us..... and instead of sniping at each other the canyon community would be much better serviced if everyone learned to share and tried to work together......

Just my 2 cents...

[rcwild]

We are all guilty; all responsible for contributing to the impacts in canyons, whether commercial guide, beta peddler or recreational canyoneer sharing beta with friends. Only real difference is that some of us are honest with ourselves about it while others still pretend that the "other guy" is more guilty.

[Iceaxe]

whether commercial guide, beta peddler or recreational canyoneer sharing beta with friends.

True Dat!

Except you left out the instructor's clogging routes with newly minted noob's. :naughty:

Jonathan actually has a nice Catch 22 thing going.... he teaches folks how to become canyoneers.... and the first thing every canyoneer wants is more beta....

Here is how I see it.... Matt and Jonathan are not going to stop guiding canyons, Rich is not going to stop teaching, and the beta peddler is not going to stop peddling...... so it's in everyones best interest to work together as much as possible.... and it's really in our best interest to work it out among the community and not start bitching to land managers... that can only end up bad for everyone. Because right now canyoneering is not even on the radar screen of most land managers, the last thing we want as a group is to put a target on canyoneers.....

[Don]

So when Jonathan spends weeks, months and years sniffing out and establishing obscure, quality canyon trips for his clients I don't blame him one bit for wanting to keep those canyons under the beta radar.


[FONT=Verdana]The interesting canyons are a limited resource and every time a guide takes a group through one of these canyons there is a chance that someone in that group will leak the beta. It

[CarpeyBiggs]

instead of sniping at each other the canyon community would be much better serviced if everyone learned to share and tried to work together......

so it's in everyones best interest to work together as much as possible.... and it's really in our best interest to work it out among the community and not start bitching to land managers... that can only end up bad for everyone. Because right now canyoneering is not even on the radar screen of most land managers, the last thing we want as a group is to put a target on canyoneers.....

Say what? Another classic Shane-Misdirection?

Posing as a big-time canyoneer on Bogley hardly counts as servicing the community. Just because you own a website and act like a bad-ass in front of a huge collection of folks relatively new to the sport doesn't make you a community do-gooder. Quite the opposite, in fact. At best, you are a profiteer and a poser. But the hypocrisy of your statements here and elsewhere needs to be questioned. This nonsense of telling everyone you are "trying to help the community learn to share and work together" while simultaneously being a catalyst for the very issues that will end up regulating and hurting the sport is total bullshit.

How is using unethical underhanded techniques to sniff out guided routes and then posting them on a website do anything to help the community? If you actually did the work yourself to find them, it MIGHT be understandable. But this is the equivalent of looking over your "friends" shoulder in high school to copy that test you obviously didn't study for, and then bragging when you end up getting an "A" on it.

Shane, face it, when the possibility of regulated canyoneering in Arches becomes reality, it will be largely because of you. Perhaps it was destined to happen eventually, but you were the catalyst. (perhaps like Kelseys canyon guide was the catalyst for closures on much of Navajo Land, due to poorly educated canyoneers and ethics). Yet you refuse to take any responsibility for it. And then, when you take from the hand that indirectly feeds you, you say "hey man, they're public, let's share!" Except you don't share. You take. And the community suffers. What's more, the person you "sniffed" the routes from is under serious financial pressure. But hey, that 30 bucks a year was worth it, right?

You've demonstrated time and time again that not only do you have no conscience, but you have little respect for the land or the community in general. About the only thing you care about is building your ego, padding your wallet, and keeping folks joining the circle jerk.

Want to do the community some good? Help people learn leave no trace ethics. Help people learn the skills to go into canyons that have limited beta, so they can solve the puzzle as if it were the first time. Teach people to explore their own maps, where a page of beta doesn't tell them every rappel and rope length. Then, the canyons stay clean, unmarked, unregulated and the impacts are properly dispersed. The only way we are going to keep these resources from getting regulated is if people learn to leave no trace.

But for damned sure don't give me this bullshit about "public land" or capitalism at work or "for the good of the community" or whatever other load of shit you can come up with. Just be honest. You're a selfish ego-building poser. If you were anything else, you wouldn't have a history of consistently selling out your "friends" the last 10 years for 30 bucks a pop...

[moab mark]

Dan,

Do you feel there should be no public beta available thru guidebooks or the internet?

Mark

[Iceaxe]

Gosh Crappy..... What are you whining about today? What special attention do you require now?

Since it appears your bus was shorter than the other buses at your school let me reiterate.... I'll try and talk slow so you can keep up..... I provide accurate beta for those that want it, some is free, some is pay-per-view... that is what I do.... I have never claimed anything more.... I am not going to stop providing this service... or plague... depending on your point of view...

So... with that understanding, what can I do for you?

[Brian in SLC]

From day one we've always kept a lid on the locations where we guide... Merely having a desire to know the location so you can hike the route without doing your own legwork is not reason enough.

Great post, Matt, and it gives some of us (at least me) a different POV to think about.

I'm not anti guide per se. I may come across that way sometimes. I mostly run into guides climbing, and, they use resources that were developed by climbers, not guide services. That, and the whole deal with getting a permit to run the Grand Canyon, and heli ski guides here in the Wasatch all leave me a little gun shy when it comes guides and guide services in general.

Its got to be a pretty tough row to hoe. You got canyons to guide, you have to advertise, you want folks to have a great trip, spread the word, etc, but, sooner or later, those locations will leak out. I'll admit to having looked at your site a number of times a few years ago to see what type of canyon opportunities were available in the Moab area. Just looking at the photos told me there were worthy objectives. I never went, but, I did ask around to see if a folks knew about which canyons were good, where, etc. So, even advertising them kinda opens them up for at least some type of scrutiny.

Bummer about not being able to guide in Arches. Makes me wonder how that could have been mitigated, and, whether the general canyoning community could have helped? Its hard to have folks lobby for you keeping a permit if they didn't have a stake in it somehow, or, felt like there was some type of beneficial relationship there. If you weren't sharing beta, then, makes me wonder if folks didn't worry that much about guiding in Arches? Dunno.

I know some of the guide services around here try to get general community service type stuff to maybe try to win over folks that don't use their guide service. Got picked up on the road a few years back by the heli guides' van. Full of clients and a couple of guides. One guide was pretty outgoing and nice (he was probably the reason we got picked up on the road) but the clients and other guide were fairly unpleasant. Anyhoo, they drop us off at the parking lot, and, say, "now remember to tell all your backcountry ski buddies how nice the Powerbirds were for giving you a ride." I just laughed and said, yeah, HELI FREE WASATCH" which didn't get much of a chuckle out of any of them. Oh well, some of us lobby fairly hard against them...

Its a tough situation. Good canyons, limited resourse, everyone wants access (and beta apparently). I can't help but think that limiting guiding in Arches will be a bad thing for canyoning in general. Shades of things to come? I hope not.

Cream tends to float to the surface. Kind of that way with canyons. The good ones get popular. Then it becomes tough to find them uncrowded.

Food for thought...

Thanks again.

-Brian in SLC

[xxnitsuaxx]

I ran into Ed, one of Moab Matt's guides last Friday in Granary Canyon. I was taking 11 people down the canyon and he came up behind me with only 2. I tried to convince them to go ahead of us at the first rappel, as half of my party were complete beginners (including my 56 year old mom, who's a complete badass). The couple he was guiding seemed happy for the break, they refused, and we didn't see them again until the last rappel. The logistics of getting 11 people down a 195 foot rappel with an awkward start gave me plenty of time to talk to the 3 of them. Ed was very patient and professional and I was impressed at how he managed to get the couple, a pair of flatlanders from Indiana, down the canyon by himself. We talked about the development of canyons in the area and I began to get a feel for how frustrated Matt might feel when he gets stuck behind groups like ours. I'm not going to get into the "canyons are public" vs. "we put the legwork into finding them" debate - the sides seem pretty well entrenched. Instead I'm going to ask if the publication of beta hurts the guide services in ways other than complicating things with the land managers. The couple I met from Indiana doesn't seem like the type to ever use a beta site. They could have step by step directions through the canyon and they would still only go with a guide. Meanwhile, my friends and I will never use a guide service, as we have neither the money nor the inclination to do so. It seems to me that if someone is going to get on the interweb and look for beta, that sort of person is unlikely to ever use a guide service to take him through a canyon. Different target markets, ya know? So to the guides out there - do the beta sites harm your business in ways other than complicating things with land managers\clogging up the canyons?

[Iceaxe]

For the record.... I agree that Moab area canyons are a limited resource. And I do feel Matt's pain... but Matt (Desert Highlights ) is also not the only canyon guide in Moab. JHMG is guiding, Cliff's and Canyons is guiding, Zion Adventure Company is seeking permits, Moab Desert Adventures is guiding, and probably a few others I don't know about....

That Matt's permits in Arches were not renewed was a direct result of the other guide services requesting equal access... and had nothing to do with privateer's canyoneering inside the park. If Matt wants to vent his anger at a group over his loss of access it should be directed at his brother guide services....

Next item.... Just about every canyon, slot and butt crack in the Moab area is being used by one guide service or anther.... and all the best stuff is being guided by at least one guide service or anther, sometimes several..... Sometimes I think half the people that live in Moab are guides of one type or anther.... So my question is.... if we are going to protect canyons used by a guide services who's canyons do we protect? if any?

Bottom line..... The pie is only so big and it all comes down to who gets a slice and how big of slice do they get.... So who should be in charge of slicing it up?

[restrac2000]

First off, its pretty obvious this is a contentious issue, as is often involved in equations involving ego, finances, and perceived hard work. Its not likely to ever be solved on an internet forum; not a single one of us has access to the all the details involved, leaving assumption and conjecture to rule the day. Second, we as a community will only see increased competition for limited resources as time goes on. Only canyons far enough from roads may avoid the reality of increased pressure and associated management. But to answer a few specific questions and statements here:

"That Matt's permits in Arches were not renewed was a direct result of the other guide services requesting equal access... and had nothing to do with privateer's canyoneering inside the park."

-- This unequivocally untrue. Maybe since I left Moab in 2006 the demand and interest from guide services in Moab has increased but I doubt it was to a level that alone warranted closure to any guiding. Most other services I have talked to showed little to no interest in guiding the "canyons" in Arches. On the other hand, growth in private use of Arches grew exponentially; this was obvious both in the quantity of encounters, quantity in impact and the quality of resource protection. The only restrictions I saw implemented in Arches during my limited tenure were associated with private use and abuse (a certain, controversial climb of Delicate Arch and ropes left dangling between towers for days on end). I can accept there may have been increased commercial interest in the area since I left, JHMG was desperate for routes and was well known for duplicating those of local guide services. On the other hand, to label the issue solely a commercial problem is a laughable joke. The commercial hand in Moab is ravenous but there are plenty of hungry private pie eaters for blame to go around. Everyone needs to know that at this point that their salivating has an effect on management decisions. Every one of us.

" You got canyons to guide, you have to advertise, you want folks to have a great trip, spread the word, etc, but, sooner or later, those locations will leak out."

-- This sums up alot of the reality of the sport, especially commercial guiding. There is a hunger for new canyons that limits how long a "secret" will last. When you consider how most of us find new routes it is only time before somebody puts the picture together. I can only speak to my experience, but how long a canyon was going to be unknown and viable without competition was a discussion we had before guiding. I gave Pileades at most 2-3 years. I was extremely sad to see it hit the public beta circuit but it was expected. We have accountability in posting photos of the area that gave clues. Guiding can be one link to a place gaining notoriety. I will always have a sense of guilt for that place in this regard; considering the lack of interest in the Moab area I firmly believe the location with have been off the radar for at least a decade had we not chosen to guide it.

That said, the role beta peddlers, guide book authors and educators have is just as important. We provide multiple venues that place a new canyon in the spotlight. Anybody the denies their accountability in this regard lacks the vulnerability, awareness and willingness that is needed to mitigate our impacts. We all may feel we do a lot to limit our impact but we can always do more. All these recreational information sources require local or regional enthusiast to survive; we can define the means and quantity in which that information is distributed but it takes an immense amount of honesty about what we truly want and vulnerability to the choices that diminish those aspects of adventure. Canyoneers are shrinking the realm of the unknown and increasing management, we can't stop this progression. We can control how fast and how much.

Time will tell how quickly ZAC's canyons will go public. That said, considering the # of foot soldiers we have in the field now and the allure of finding a "secret", I would be shocked if they weren't published within 5 years. We can only hope people do it legally and with the least impact possible.