WCCM Canyon Rating System

[moab mark]

This site is listed in the Book. http://canyonbeta.com/ I noticed the WCCM has a different rating system then the ACA. Anybody know why?

Mark

[Iceaxe]

I split this into it's own thread because these discussions on ratings have a tendency to grow...



WCCM Canyoneering Rating and Difficulty System

As canyoneering continues to grow in popularity the need for a difficulty rating system has emerged just as it did for rock climbers years ago. ATS has developed a methodology for canyoneering called the West Coast Canyoneering Method or WCCM. The WCCM is a make up of existing traditional approaches and evolved techniques and systems combined. The need to expand on the existing rating system is based on the wider range and types of canyon routes being established now compared to the desert type “slot canyons” that stereotyped the image of the sport in the early days. Desert canyons are quickly becoming just a small part of the established canyon routes nationally and worldwide. ATS has been a component for the pioneering and establishing of routes across the west coast including the Sierra Nevada range, Arizona, Southern California desert and mountain regions, and Hawaii. The WCCM rating system was conceived in the early 2000’s as an evolution of the popular Yosemite Decimal System that rock climbers currently use to grade routes in the United States. Although there are several rating systems in use in the United States for climbers (YDS, Alaskan), the Yosemite Decimal System continues to be the preferred choice. As such, ATS felt it would be a natural and uncomplicated step to have a comparable rating system for canyoneers to use.

As with all types of rating systems, this one is designed to assist a group and its leaders in assessing and matching the skill levels of each canyon descent member against the obstacles in the canyon. Never rely solely on a canyon difficulty rating or a route description as routes change and the perception of the individual’s establishing and rating the route may be different than your own. In addition, there are multiple ratings systems in use for canyoneering around the globe that all share similarities, but posses key differences. Do your homework on which rating system you are using, talk with folks who have recently done the route using message boards (http://bogley.com/forum/), call or e-mail an instructor or guide to verify conditions and ratings. Information is virtually non-exhaustive. A good canyon leader will do everything in his or her power to become and stay informed to past, current and expected conditions. Due diligence is only a small part of this puzzle. Professional training, proper equipment, group size management, mindsets, time of year, etc… are all contributing factors for success or failure. Be safe and then have fun!

Canyon Classifications:

Class 1: A canyon that can be traveled in either direction (i.e. up or down) and most times of the year, usually along a streambed on an established trail. No commitment, no real exposure to water, no technical gear required.

Class 2: Again a non-committing canyon which can be traveled in either direction, mostly “off trail hiking” with some route finding skills needed to possibly stay dry or skirt larger obstacles. No technical equipment needed.

Class 3: Again a canyon route that can be traveled in either direction. Substantial route finding and climbing / boulder hopping skills needed to ascend or descend. Deep wades, small swims may be possible along with exposed down climbs followed by additional sections of class 2. A group harness and small rope may be a smart item to bring in the event of an injury.

Class 4: A committing and technical canyon route to be descended with various specialized rope systems, down climbing, swimming, deep wades along with teamwork skills. Typically once the rope is recovered form the first rappel the group is committed to a “descent only” egress. A serious approach to Time Energy and Risk management is necessary. Special attention to layering systems as often exposure to cold water is unavoidable.

Class 5: An extremely committing canyon route with all the tributes of a class 4 canyon route combined with the additional skillsets needed for lead and aid climbing. Technical pothole escapes, tricky lead climbs for egress, or any other difficult obstacle that would require the use of climbing and belaying skills. A class 5 canyon is an expert canyon usually attempted by a smaller group of competent canyoneer’s.

The Water Ratings:
Water or flow rates vary from canyon to canyon, time to time, storm to storm and year to year! Calling a canyon class “C” because there is water flowing through it is too vague for our standards! Detailing a canyon by any amount of water flow should be done on more of a case by case. Our water flow rating system is a conditional measurement. Not a set rating!

Class A: Virtually dry conditions. (“Seasonal” pools of water may exist)

Class B: Minor to moderate water flow rates with deep wades and or swims.

Class C*: Heavy flow rates. Class “C” conditions have difficult and dangerous hydraulic scenarios. Strong swimming skills and rope setting skills needed to safely negotiate the watercourse.

*Note: For a route to qualify as a class “C” canyon it must posses at the time of descent hazardous currents that a leader must swim against to set up swift water or class “C” rope systems. The amount of CFS running in a canyon is not an indicator of a class “C” as every canyon has the capacity to drain water at different levels. If you are swimming, the route is not necessarily a class “C” conditional rating by default.

Class F: A canyon that has been exposed to fire. Mud slides, rock fall, burned out root systems of trees and bushes, debris dams make for a dangerous condition. See many routes in Southern California as regular examples.
A class “A” canyon can become class “C” during a heavy rain, a class “C” canyon can become class “A” during a drought. Water flow ratings are so variable that they should only serve as part of your initial size up of the route. If you don’t have swiftwater skills, stay away from faster moving water filled canyon routes until you have received proper training. It only takes a small amount of water set with the perfect canyon topographical conditions to create a water hazard by definition. Use good judgment!

Time Commitment Ratings:

Grade I: Short roadside classics. 1-2 hours

Grade II: 2-4 hours

Grade III: Solid half day 5-7 hours

Grade IV: Long day 8-12 hours. Usually depending on group size, conditions and speed

Grade V: Two-day canyon, Bring more Red Bull!

Grade VI: A hypothetical rating for more than two days. Usually at this point the canyon crew will be aware of the canyon length and will have made all the necessary related decisions to manage the canyon T.E.R.M’s (http://www.alpinets.com/canyoneering.html).

Danger Ratings:
Danger ratings are again hypothetical. It can be argued that any canyon could have sections of “R” or “X” ratings. True, but here we are talking about “unavoidable scenarios” the difference between a mandatory jump and not mandatory may be the lack of suitable anchor, etc… Body belays may protect the majority of the group but not the last one down. These ratings are simply designed to encourage the canyoneer to look deeper into the demands of the route. A danger rating describes unmanageable risks such as known hydraulic features, necessary jumps or dangerous slides.

R: A mistake at the wrong place or time will result in an unavoidable injury.

X: A mistake at the wrong place or time will result in an unavoidable death.

Example Ratings:

Class 3-B-III
Non committing, Wet, half day scramble

Class 4-C-V-R
Committing, Heavy water flow & current, Two day canyon with possible unavoidable hazards such as mandatory jumps, slides or swims

Class 5-C-VI-X
A committed advanced canyon route with heavy water flow & current, lead climbing required for egress or pothole escapes, multi-day with the possibility of unavoidable deadly obstacles or hazards

[Ryebrye]

So... they added a "5", and a class "F" and tweaked the definition of the "C" and called it "their" rating system?

Spinal Tap would be all over that rating system... It goes to 5!

[Scott P]

Class 5-C-VI-X
A committed advanced canyon route with heavy water flow & current, lead climbing required for egress or pothole escapes, multi-day with the possibility of unavoidable deadly obstacles or hazards


Maybe I'm a doofus, but how can a canyon have both water flow and pothole escapes (unless they were in two entirely different sections)? Has anyone seen such a canyon?

[Ryebrye]

Maybe I'm a doofus, but how can a canyon have both water flow and pothole escapes (unless they were in two entirely different sections)? Has anyone seen such a canyon?

Well... yes, but not the way you are thinking. I've seen the flow high enough to make the water in the potholes swirl around like a gigantic flushing toilet that you have to escape somehow, but not with normal pothole escape.

Oh, and such a canyon wouldn't be Class-C unless you had to swim against the current to set up ropes in this system.

[trackrunner]

So... they added a "5", and a class "F" and tweaked the definition of the "C" and called it "their" rating system?

Spinal Tap would be all over that rating system... It goes to 5!

:roflol:

why don't you just make 4 harder and make 4 be the top class and that a little harder? . . .






This goes to 5

[mdd]

I hope nobody used to WCCM 3B accidentally goes into a canyon everyone else in the states calls 3B... or even worse, 4B.

Creating a new system is stupid. Creating it as a cheap knockoff of a system that has some flaws already is even stupider. Come on Darren, at least create a system that *fixes* some of those flaws. Jeez.

For fun, check out his beta on his site for Zion:

Pine Creek: 4B
Keyhole: 4B
Middle Echo: 4B
Lower Echo: 4B
Behunin: 4B
Mystery: 4B
Englested: 5B if you go up Englestead, 4B otherwise
Spry: 4B
Imlay: 5B

And he links to Tom's site, which of course uses a different rating system.

I give him credit though, he did solve the ACA rating dilemma where every canyon in Zion is 3B. The down side is he solved it by making them all 4B. Oh well.


M

[trackrunner]

hey at least it's not like those guys what was it ATC or APC sports who's beta had Kehole with an R and Behunin with an X

[Iceaxe]

I give him credit though, he did solve the ACA rating dilemma where every canyon in Zion is 3B. The down side is he solved it by making them all 4B. Oh well.

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

On a side note.... I never understood why having most the Zion canyons rated 3B was a problem.... I mean really.... technically the rap-n-swim canyons in Zion are about the same.... trying to rate Pine Creek more or less difficult then Mystery Canyon never made a lot of sence to me....

[nonot]

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

On a side note.... I never understood why having most the Zion canyons rated 3B was a problem.... I mean really.... technically the rap-n-swim canyons in Zion are about the same.... trying to rate Pine Creek more or less difficult then Mystery Canyon never made a lot of sence to me....

Because Zion is the iconic home of newbies. They do keyhole and then get themselves injured in Pine Creek, later arguing Pine Creek is MUCH harder. Also, you probably don't want to bring your 7 year old on Mystery. All 3B, the park makes you sign the death waiver all the same, the permit looks the same. People don't expect to have to collect beta or read a description, or otherwise properly prepare, they want it all there right in the code. At least the class 4 ratings seem to keep many out of serious trouble.

[rcwild]

The everything-in-Zion-is-3B dilemma is not difficult to address if the rating system is used correctly. The 3 rating address skill requirements. Does it require a higher level of skill to do Pine Creek than it does to do Keyhole? I suppose it could be argued that a 100-foot rappel does require a little more skill. But the number of accidents in Pine Creek certainly makes it clear that it involves a higher degree of risk. So Keyhole is a 3B G and Pine Creek is at least 3B PG, maybe 3B R.

[ratagonia]

Because Zion is the iconic home of newbies. They do keyhole and then get themselves injured in Pine Creek, later arguing Pine Creek is MUCH harder. Also, you probably don't want to bring your 7 year old on Mystery. All 3B, the park makes you sign the death waiver all the same, the permit looks the same. People don't expect to have to collect beta or read a description, or otherwise properly prepare, they want it all there right in the code. At least the class 4 ratings seem to keep many out of serious trouble.

Such cynicism, so early in the morning.

Keyhole is a grade I, Pine Creek is a grade II or III. Grades used to mean something in climbing, not so much any more, because of the wide variation in skill and speed among climbers. We don't emphasize grades much in our rating system, but they do count. What is the difference between Keyhole and Pine Creek? Not so much the skills required, more the time AND COMMITMENT = the grade.

Tom :moses:

[rcwild]

Keyhole is a grade I, Pine Creek is a grade II or III. Grades used to mean something in climbing, not so much any more, because of the wide variation in skill and speed among climbers. We don't emphasize grades much in our rating system, but they do count. What is the difference between Keyhole and Pine Creek? Not so much the skills required, more the time AND COMMITMENT = the grade.

So the reason more people are getting hurt in Pine Creek than in Keyhole is because Keyhole only requires one hour and Pine Creek requires three?

If the goal is to make sure newbies distinguish differences between Keyhole and Pine Creek, which will be more effective:

Keyhole 3B I vs Pine Creek 3B II
OR
Keyhole 3B G vs Pine Creek 3B R

[ratagonia]

So the reason more people are getting hurt in Pine Creek than in Keyhole is because Keyhole only requires one hour and Pine Creek requires three?

If the goal is to make sure newbies distinguish differences between Keyhole and Pine Creek, which will be more effective:

Keyhole 3B I vs Pine Creek 3B II
OR
Keyhole 3B G vs Pine Creek 3B R

I doubt that we can solve the problem of people getting hurt in Pine Creek by publishing a different rating for it.

Tom :moses:

[moab mark]

My question is how many people are just looking at the rating and going? Most people including myself look at the rating to see if I am even in the game and then go looking for beta to see if I can handle it. Yes Subway and Pine Creek has the same rating but if anyone reads the beta and cannot see the difference they better get back on the short bus next to me. Aren't the majority of the accidents in Pine Creek at the last rappel? I am by no means an expert but I have done Pine Creek 7 or 8 times and that last rappel makes me woozy everytime I set it up and rappel down it. I do not know why it's not that difficult but..... Is the rappel staying in the watercourse easier at the end of Pine Creek? If it is maybe that rappel should be pushed?

My real concern with the WCCM ratings is, hey Heaps is only rated a 4 and I have done Several 5's in the California area after being trained by WCCM. We can handle it.
The difference in canyons cannot be covered down to the detail in a rating system. IMO rating systems need to be simple to get you pointed in the right direction and then find some beta with the detail to get you thru. If the rating system gets so complicated that I need a guide to help me understand the rating I probably would not look at the rating just look for beta.

Mark

Mark

[Iceaxe]

I am by no means an expert but I have done Pine Creek 7 or 8 times and that last rappel makes me woozy everytime I set it up and rappel down it. I do not know why it's not that difficult but..... Is the rappel staying in the watercourse easier at the end of Pine Creek? If it is maybe that rappel should be pushed?

That final rappel in Pine Creek scares me if I think about it too much..... The problem, at least for me, is you must totally commit when you swing out over the void. If something is messed up you are going straight to the bottom. Back in the days when the rappel was anchored by the small arch it was no big deal to me. You could hook up and then stand on a small ledge to get comfortable and begin your rappel. Moving that anchor 3-feet totally changed the feel and upped the scare factor of that rappel.

As for "staying in the water course".... It's an easy rappel for those used to doing North Wash canyons. The difficulty is you must squeeze through next to a large boulder while on rappel. This makes it difficult to help noob's. At the bottom you have to deal with the slippery waterfall, noob's like to face plant. And to top it off the rope pull sucks for the watercourse. None of this is a big deal for moderately experienced canyoneers, but if you sent the standard rap-n-swim kiddie canyon herd down the watercourse there would be problems.

[Iceaxe]

I doubt that we can solve the problem of people getting hurt in Pine Creek by publishing a different rating for it.

If the goal is to reduce the number of injuries and rescues in Pine Creek the final rappel needs to be re-engineered and relocated (if possible). And as a community I believe that would be a good idea and a worthy goal.

What do you think about that idea? Fewer injuries and rescues has to be good for everyone. :nod:

[Randi]

My question is how many people are just looking at the rating and going? Most people including myself look at the rating to see if I am even in the game and then go looking for beta to see if I can handle it. Yes Subway and Pine Creek has the same rating but if anyone reads the beta and cannot see the difference they better get back on the short bus next to me. Aren't the majority of the accidents in Pine Creek at the last rappel? I am by no means an expert but I have done Pine Creek 7 or 8 times and that last rappel makes me woozy everytime I set it up and rappel down it. I do not know why it's not that difficult but..... Is the rappel staying in the watercourse easier at the end of Pine Creek? If it is maybe that rappel should be pushed?

My real concern with the WCCM ratings is, hey Heaps is only rated a 4 and I have done Several 5's in the California area after being trained by WCCM. We can handle it.
The difference in canyons cannot be covered down to the detail in a rating system. IMO rating systems need to be simple to get you pointed in the right direction and then find some beta with the detail to get you thru. If the rating system gets so complicated that I need a guide to help me understand the rating I probably would not look at the rating just look for beta.

Mark

Although I've heard remarks here & there about the ACA rating system needing improvement, it IS the standard here in the US.
The WCCM in my opinion just seems to confuse the issue and sounds like some kind of ploy. These people who came up with this method seem to want to tout the fact that 'they' not the "ACA' set the standard.

That's ridiculous!

They're just adding confusion to a simple established system! :frustrated:
WCCM should stand for Worthlessly Confusing Canyoneers Method

[ratagonia]

My question is how many people are just looking at the rating and going? Most people including myself look at the rating to see if I am even in the game and then go looking for beta to see if I can handle it. Yes Subway and Pine Creek has the same rating but if anyone reads the beta and cannot see the difference they better get back on the short bus next to me. Aren't the majority of the accidents in Pine Creek at the last rappel? I am by no means an expert but I have done Pine Creek 7 or 8 times and that last rappel makes me woozy everytime I set it up and rappel down it. I do not know why it's not that difficult but..... Is the rappel staying in the watercourse easier at the end of Pine Creek? If it is maybe that rappel should be pushed?

Mark Mark

You can toss a long sling (30'? 40'?) around the big pointy rock and rap off the front of it. Very comfortable hook up, you rappel next to (but not IN) the slot, very nice rappel.

http://canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0905pine/index2.htm

But it leaves a big piece of webbing. Usually, I can enlist the next party behind us in cleaning the webbing. Or, the last person goes over to the perch and re-rigs the rope.

You, Shane, can always rappel off the arch, if your skill level is so low that you struggle with the 'new' anchor. I usually toss a sling or rope end around the small arch and use that as a safety. Reduces the woozy factor.

(Point of etiquette for the less-initiated: Yes, I take a shot at friend Shane every chance I get, because that is a well-established sport here on Bogley. No, I never take shots at Mark, 'cause he's such a nice fellow, and, unlike that other fellow, is never "full of himself". And plenty of people take shots at me, also a well-established sport here).

Tom :moses:

[Randi]

And plenty of people take shots at me, also a well-established sport here).

Tom :moses:

And sometimes even Invisible Pink Unicorns take shots at guys like you! :mrgreen:

[Scott Card]

(Point of etiquette for the less-initiated: Yes, I take a shot at friend Shane every chance I get, because that is a well-established sport here on Bogley. No, I never take shots at Mark, 'cause he's such a nice fellow, and, unlike that other fellow, is never "full of himself". And plenty of people take shots at me, also a well-established sport here).

Tom :moses:

:lol8: Kinda like shootin' skeet. Tom..... pull.....bam... Shane...pull......bam.... it's all good entertainment. :2thumbs::popcorn:


As for the rating systems, what ever system, I find them all lacking to a point but very helpful. I know that who I am with makes a BIG difference as to difficulty... I call it the Spidey factor. :haha: (or insert Ram, Tom... others who I have gone with that make the canyon less imposing) A couple of teenagers I have taken in canyons have upped the rating of difficulty. They kept trying to get hurt.... Also, There is a huge difference between leading and following in a canyon. I know when I started this sport over a decade ago (sounds like a longer time to say decade) I paid very close attention to the ratings. I was figuring out what they meant, what consistency I could see from one canyon to another based on ratings. Then I went to the North Wash. Now I look at the ratings and seek specific beta on the crux(s) of the canyon. I also pay attention to who is going. The ratings are meaningful but so too (maybe more so) is the specific beta. Also experience in a Zion canyon is not the same as a North Wash canyon. All class 3's are not created equally. Knowing the areas of the plateau is helpful. All class 4's are not created equally. Again a 4 in Zion is not a 4 in the the North Wash or Escalante. I know that the rating system accounts for the different challenges but thinking that you did Imlay qualifies you to do Sandthrax? Well, no. I like the PG/R/X ratings. I like better a description of what the R or X means in that canyon from someone I trust. In short, the ratings system, any rating system is but one important factor in my decision about going in, who I go with, what gear... etc.

[Brian in SLC]

Keyhole is a grade I, Pine Creek is a grade II or III. Grades used to mean something in climbing, not so much any more, because of the wide variation in skill and speed among climbers. We don't emphasize grades much in our rating system, but they do count. What is the difference between Keyhole and Pine Creek? Not so much the skills required, more the time AND COMMITMENT = the grade.

Most competent parties "should" be able to do Keyhole in under an hour, and, Pine Creek inside of 2 to 3 hours. That really makes both of them Grade I gigs, with, the combination of both a grade 11.

Grade II is half a day. No way Pine Creek alone should take folks half a day.

-Brian in SLC

[Randi]

Most competent parties "should" be able to do Keyhole in under an hour, and, Pine Creek inside of 2 to 3 hours. That really makes both of them Grade I gigs, with, the combination of both a grade 11.

Grade II is half a day. No way Pine Creek alone should take folks half a day.

-Brian in SLC

Pine Creek once took me 6 hours to do!
Maybe we should add an "L" designation to the ratings to denote the 'linger' factor! :)

[Brian in SLC]

Pine Creek once took me 6 hours to do!
Maybe we should add an "L" designation to the ratings to denote the 'linger' factor! :)

Sure!

But...grades don't take into account folks taking half day naps, parties trading harnesses, catered lunches or, outside the bell curve speedy parties doin' Pine Creek in scant minutes either.

Should be the time an average, competent group would expect to take to do the canyon.

If folks' averages are much more than that, then, it might reflect on their not being of average competency. Which I suspect is the case for quite a large number of parties that do Pine Creek.

Still wantin' to get my time sub 1 hour for Pine Creek. 1:01 is my fastest. Maybe this year will be my year...ha ha.

Actually, would be fun to do at Midnight...

-Brian in SLC

[Randi]

Sure!

But...grades don't take into account folks taking half day naps, parties trading harnesses, catered lunches or, outside the bell curve speedy parties doin' Pine Creek in scant minutes either.

Should be the time an average, competent group would expect to take to do the canyon.

If folks' averages are much more than that, then, it might reflect on their not being of average competency. Which I suspect is the case for quite a large number of parties that do Pine Creek.

Still wantin' to get my time sub 1 hour for Pine Creek. 1:01 is my fastest. Maybe this year will be my year...ha ha.

Actually, would be fun to do at Midnight...

-Brian in SLC

Fun to do at midnight while trying to beat your fastest time? :)
I like doing canyons at night - reminds me of caving!

[hank moon]

That final rappel in Pine Creek scares me if I think about it too much..... The problem, at least for me, is you must totally commit when you swing out over the void. If something is messed up you are going straight to the bottom.

A simple practice to avoid this (needless) commitment: weight your rap system while attached to the anchor with a safety leash. If all looks good, unclip the safety leash and go. This is common practice in many Euro canyons where it it essential to be clipped in before attaching a rap device (due to exposed anchor placement).

Well-placed (often exposed) anchors reduce rock damage while making pulls easier and rope recovery more reliable - BIG benefit!

[hank moon]

Most competent parties "should" be able to do Keyhole in under an hour, and, Pine Creek inside of 2 to 3 hours. That really makes both of them Grade I gigs, with, the combination of both a grade 11.

Grade II is half a day. No way Pine Creek alone should take folks half a day.

-Brian in SLC




and....the "committing" part of PC arguably ends after the last rap. nearly half of the trip time is the exit hike...

[Iceaxe]

You, Shane, can always rappel off the arch, if your skill level is so low that you struggle with the 'new' anchor. I usually toss a sling or rope end around the small arch and use that as a safety. Reduces the woozy factor.


A simple practice to avoid total commitment: weight your rap system while attached to the anchor with a safety leash. If all looks good, unclip the safety leash and go.

While these are all wonderful suggestions..... none of them are going to reduce or eliminate the high number of accidents and rescues that keep occurring at the final rappel.....

The point I'm trying to make.... and it appears I'm doing a poor job so far..... is that if a specific rappel is responsible for a large number of accidents and rescues maybe its time to re-examine that rappel? Or figure out how to educate the noob's that keep cratering in....


As for me personally there is no help.... I don't really like to rappel..... but I figure it's just part of the package.... I also don't like paying for dinner at a nice restaurant, but if it leads to wild sex with my hot young stripper wife then I'm all for it.

[Randi]

I also don't like paying for dinner at a nice restaurant, but if it leads to wild sex with my hot young stripper wife then I'm all for it.

If you have to resort to bribery, you're doing something wrong!
I'm just sayin....:lol8:

[Iceaxe]

If you have to resort to bribery, you're doing something wrong!
I'm just sayin....:lol8:

I prefer to think of dinner and drinks as "The Short Cut"....

:cool2:

[Brian in SLC]

While these are all wonderful suggestions..... none of them are going to reduce or eliminate the high number of accidents and rescues that keep occurring at the final rappel.....

The point I'm trying to make.... and it appears I'm doing a poor job so far..... is that if a specific rappel is responsible for a large number of accidents and rescues maybe its time to re-examine that rappel? Or figure out how to educate the noob's that keep cratering in...

Its a tough spot, to be sure. The configuration of that rappel makes it difficult to ease into it, as well as provide a good top belay. You kinda go from 0 to 90 all of a sudden.

I really think most folks don't have that much experience with that type of rappel. Single skinny rap, free air, right off the anchor. Not a ton of places to practise a full 100 foot free air rappel like that.

I don't think that moving the anchor over really had much effect. You still step off and, whoosh.

Very out of character with the rest of the rappels in the canyon, and, the last one (smellin' the barn effect) too.

Hard to lower someone. Hard to belay from the top. Almost hard to coach and see the set up prior to lanuch. Not very tolerant of even minor mistakes.

Maybe explore a walk around? Or, an alternate rappel spot that isn't so...exposed? Dunno.

Bit of a noob eater, for sure.

Edit to add: maybe a belay station (even a tree or natural anchor above the launch point?) could become standard for the start of the rappel for folks not comfy?

Short cut...funny...!

-Brian in SLC

[moab mark]

Although I've heard remarks here & there about the ACA rating system needing improvement, it IS the standard here in the US.
The WCCM in my opinion just seems to confuse the issue and sounds like some kind of ploy. These people who came up with this method seem to want to tout the fact that 'they' not the "ACA' set the standard.

That's ridiculous!

They're just adding confusion to a simple established system! :frustrated:
WCCM should stand for Worthlessly Confusing Canyoneers Method

Totally agree
Mark

[moab mark]

We have moved off from WCCM rating system but Tom where is this horn you are using in regards to the anchor? Without the webbing headache do the groups you have taken prefer it over the original anchor? Easier start, free hang, I love the free hang part just not the parachute jump at the start.:lol8: First time I did it, Scott Holley made me go off from a standing position NOW I SIT. I swung underneath and about wet myself.
Mark

[ratagonia]

We have moved off from WCCM rating system but Tom where is this horn you are using in regards to the anchor? Without the webbing headache do the groups you have taken prefer it over the original anchor? Easier start, free hang, I love the free hang part just not the parachute jump at the start.:lol8: First time I did it, Scott Holley made me go off from a standing position NOW I SIT. I swung underneath and about wet myself.
Mark

It is the HUGE rock that chocks the entire canyon. If you walk out to the front of it, there are nice scoops to use for walking on, quite comfortable though quite exposed. A huge sling goes around the entire top of the rock. People get antsy, so we usually have someone clip into the sling as a meat anchor backup on the up-canyon side of the sling. 40 feet I think, will do it. The launch is a little more conventional than the other. The group still has to do the downclimb to get out, which looks MUCH harder than it actually is. Could be meat anchored for the kids. The rappel is quite pretty, dropping into the nice grotto under the huge boulder. A little easier start, then free hang to the ground. 80 feet.

Tom :moses:

[moab mark]

I read somewhere where a couple of new bolts were placed in Refrigerator how about a couple of new ones in Pine Creek???????? Just a thought.:2thumbs:

[Ryebrye]

I read somewhere where a couple of new bolts were placed in Refrigerator how about a couple of new ones in Pine Creek???????? Just a thought.:2thumbs:

Bolts? In a Zion canyon? Unthinkable

[Randi]

Sure!

But...grades don't take into account folks taking half day naps, parties trading harnesses, catered lunches

Yeah, I totally know what you mean...

[Cirrus2000]

:roflol: :roflol: Extreme napping roolz!

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_O_8PLe3Zn6g/S-zYoeEH8WI/AAAAAAAAWOc/1AiX8RLtH1U/s640/IMGP0362.JPG