Scouts on whitewater. Where?

[Jaxx]

We are planning a whitewater trip for our scouts and I don't really know where to start. We were thinking somewhere on the Green. Should we get a guide? Should we just rent and give it a try on our own? Where would be a good place to go? It needs to be within a couple hours to drive.
Our plan is to leave in the afternoon on a friday and then do a short run on the river and camp on Friday night then finish the trip on Saturday. Is that possible? Should we just plan on camping somewhere on Friday and then rafting on Saturday?
None of us have any experience (I did float a couple miles near Moab but that doesn't really count). We are looking at class II rapids, mabey III if guided.
Will be around June. Thanks for your help!
If anyone with experience wants to "guide" us we could compensate, probably will just break even but atleast you got to be on the water!

[trackrunner]

Great Salt Lake Council Teton High Adventure base on the Snake River in WY is great for scouts.

[Jaxx]

We can't drive that far. We are only supposed to be a couple hours drive from Lehi. I was thinking somewhere near Green River, UT would be about as far as we would be allowed to drive. The Scouts are 12-14. Thanks for the idea though.

[Sombeech]

The Green River right from the Dam will be great. You won't need a guide. It'll be some great fishing too.

Start at the Dam and get out at Little Hole. Stopping to fish in most of the holes, you should be off of the river in 8 hours. Floating straight through might take 2-3.

Then on Saturday do it again. Campgrounds with tables in the middle.

Pictures here:
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?32328-Green-River-08-Flaming-Gorge-Dam-to-Little-Hole

The largest rapid on this stretch is "Mother in Law" rapid. Nothing much though, Class II probably. Great fishing and a little whitewater, beautiful scenery and clear water.

Alex has gone past Little Hole and stayed the night on the river.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=100749669156101003180.000485f0cc0bd3cfda2a5&t=h&z=13

[trackrunner]

We are only supposed to be a couple hours drive from Lehi.

it is easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission.

assuming this is a "church" requirement, common among LDS sponsor, we broke it all the time. We had summer camps is other states reguarlly. The one time they cracked down and forced the scout master out, he became the scout master for the Methodist and the scouts, parents, & committee defected to the Methodist troop. After a month the scout master was invited back.

But Beech and Alex can give good advice.

Maybe down the green and have a jet boat pic you up and take you back to Moab. Remember a couple TR here for this option.

[denaliguide]

he green below greeen river is flat water and is suitable for canoes all the wat tothe confluence of the colorado. easily done unguided.

i would suggest doing the trip through grey and desolation canyon. class 3 and you could go unguided provided you had some people who are experienced. sand island to green river is something like 4 or 5 days. this would be ny choice.

[moab mark]

The Green River right from the Dam will be great. You won't need a guide. It'll be some great fishing too.

Start at the Dam and get out at Little Hole. Stopping to fish in most of the holes, you should be off of the river in 8 hours. Floating straight through might take 2-3.

Then on Saturday do it again. Campgrounds with tables in the middle.

Pictures here:
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?32328-Green-River-08-Flaming-Gorge-Dam-to-Little-Hole

The largest rapid on this stretch is "Mother in Law" rapid. Nothing much though, Class II probably. Great fishing and a little whitewater, beautiful scenery and clear water.

Alex has gone past Little Hole and stayed the night on the river.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=100749669156101003180.000485f0cc0bd3cfda2a5&t=h&z=13

I'm with Beech, you can rent rafts right there. Just go thru with everyone paddling you'll live. It will be alot easier to camp and run it twice then try to haul your gear down. We did it a couple of years ago with our Young Women they had a great time. If you can go in the dead of summer they'll have alot more fun and the proffessional fly fisherman will love them.
I am in Scouts and have not heard the 2 hour rule. If that was the case I would of been out years ago. Our ward is on the 300 mile rule.:haha: We have been known to stretch that a few times.
In IMO stay away from the Green South of Green River, slow moving and once you leave the bridge your in no mans land until you get to mineral bottom. I have heard of groups floating the Weber around Morgan when the flow is high and camping but haven't got any details.


Mark

[Sombeech]

Pictures here:
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?32328-Green-River-08-Flaming-Gorge-Dam-to-Little-Hole

The largest rapid on this stretch is "Mother in Law" rapid. Nothing much though, Class II probably.

In fact I think Mother In Law Rapid is at 3:30 in the video there, so not much at all. Of course, it all depends on the release rate from the dam.

[trackrunner]

don't forget this for the scouts
http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Whitewater

[Jaxx]

Sweet! Thanks guys. I think this will be the plan. Double thanks Beech for the Google maps and vids.

Mark-I am over the boys scouts 12-14. It isn't a scout rule but our c.o. (LDS) leaders that don't want the younger boys traveling too far so they have something to look forward to when they get older. A couple of years ago the older boys went to Catalina Island. I don't want to talk about it anymore, I am jealous.

track-That is why we are going! Except we are using rafts so #13 requirement has us worried. Not worried enough not to go though!
"#13 Participate in a whitewater trip using either a canoe or kayak on a Class I or Class II river."

[Sombeech]

Strange that a raft isn't mentioned. You should contact them to clarify. If it's strictly a no-go with the raft, I'd go with a canoe or inflatable canoe. You'll probably have some scouts in the water though, but less than with kayaks.

[moab mark]

Sweet! Thanks guys. I think this will be the plan. Double thanks Beech for the Google maps and vids.

Mark-I am over the boys scouts 12-14. It isn't a scout rule but our c.o. (LDS) leaders that don't want the younger boys traveling too far so they have something to look forward to when they get older. A couple of years ago the older boys went to Catalina Island. I don't want to talk about it anymore, I am jealous.

track-That is why we are going! Except we are using rafts so #13 requirement has us worried. Not worried enough not to go though!
"#13 Participate in a whitewater trip using either a canoe or kayak on a Class I or Class II river."

Your leaders are not looking at the big picture. When they get to Priest age they do not want to go anymore. You have to hit it hard when they are 12-14 so they will get their Eagle. Most all of the good Scout Camps are beyond those distances. Hey we had a leader one time try to take the Priests to Mexico Deep Sea Fishing. Sounded great till the Stake Pres. heard about it.:nono: Needless to say we didn't quite make it Mexico, had to settle for Moab.

As far as req #13. When you rent your rafts rent a rubber ducky kayak. Have each boy take a turn. Get the fishing merit badge to while your there.

Mark

[Sombeech]

As far as req #13. When you rent your rafts rent a rubber ducky kayak. Have each boy take a turn. Get the fishing merit badge to while your there.

Ah, there you go. You won't have to spend the whole time in the kayak / canoe, just switch 'em out like Mark says. Great idea.

[Jaxx]

Your leaders are not looking at the big picture. When they get to Priest age they do not want to go anymore. You have to hit it hard when they are 12-14 so they will get their Eagle. Most all of the good Scout Camps are beyond those distances. Hey we had a leader one time try to take the Priests to Mexico Deep Sea Fishing. Sounded great till the Stake Pres. heard about it.:nono: Needless to say we didn't quite make it Mexico, had to settle for Moab.

As far as req #13. When you rent your rafts rent a rubber ducky kayak. Have each boy take a turn. Get the fishing merit badge to while your there.

Mark

Ya right now they are telling us to go to long terms one near and one out of our area to mix it up for the boys. We went to Tifie last year this year we will do Steiner. We don't really do fun long trips because our long term is for earning merit badges. I wish we could go farther and do funner things.
I will look at the rubber ducky kayak and fishing merit badge, great ideas, Thanks!

[Sombeech]

Yeah, that's true, the bigger trips are where you cram the merit badges in at Scout Camp for a week. It's tough to take more than 1 long trip per year with the scouts. This is the main reason for the limits on the distance, just to make it a 1-2 night trip.

[denaliguide]

hard to consider class 1 and 2 as whitewater. by definition class 1 is flat water.

[moab mark]

Jaxx,

Since we have strayed from river running to scout camps here is a suggestion for you. For the last 6 or 7 years we have gone to an organized camp one year and to Zion the next. The Zion trip is the most memorable experience of most of the scouts scouting experience. Here's is how we lay it out. Head down on Monday, if you have more then 12 in your group get permits for Subway and for Orderville on Tuesday and Thursday. Tuesday divide up and one group hit Orderville the other group hit the Subway. Wednesday rent tubes from ZACS and float the river. We then head out to Snake Alley and do some rappeling. On Thursday have the groups swap and do Orderville and Subway again. Friday try to get a service project from the Park Service. Head home on Saturday. Camp at Watchman and swim in the river each night after dark. If you have enough canyoneering experience in your group we looped Birch Hollow into Orderville. I lead the Birch Orderville both times. Yes doing Orderville twice in one week is a long two days but to see the look on the Scouts faces when they do all those rappels is worth it. While there get your climbing, orienteering merit badges.

To score the permits have several leaders put in the lottery for Subway, we have never had a problem if about 4 put in. The problem with this trip is you will end up with more fathers and other leaders then Scouts.:nod:

Great trip.

Mark

[Alex]

Green below the dam is pretty fun, easy and safe. Section B is fun for camping, but it has a class 3 rapid. Shouldn't be too big of a deal if you scout it and run it on the left.

If you want more exciting daily run, I'd say Split mountain section of the Green by Vernal. I just got off of it today, it's a fun ride, but it's all class 3 and would be tough for a newbie without an experienced person (private or commercial) to help out and lead. Moab daily is always fun as well, and usually a safe run, unless you mess up on the White rapid. If you need any more detailed information PM me, I know a bit about running rivers :twisted:

[Jaxx]

Jaxx,

Since we have strayed from river running to scout camps here is a suggestion for you. For the last 6 or 7 years we have gone to an organized camp one year and to Zion the next. The Zion trip is the most memorable experience of most of the scouts scouting experience. Here's is how we lay it out. Head down on Monday, if you have more then 12 in your group get permits for Subway and for Orderville on Tuesday and Thursday. Tuesday divide up and one group hit Orderville the other group hit the Subway. Wednesday rent tubes from ZACS and float the river. We then head out to Snake Alley and do some rappeling. On Thursday have the groups swap and do Orderville and Subway again. Friday try to get a service project from the Park Service. Head home on Saturday. Camp at Watchman and swim in the river each night after dark. If you have enough canyoneering experience in your group we looped Birch Hollow into Orderville. I lead the Birch Orderville both times. Yes doing Orderville twice in one week is a long two days but to see the look on the Scouts faces when they do all those rappels is worth it. While there get your climbing, orienteering merit badges.

To score the permits have several leaders put in the lottery for Subway, we have never had a problem if about 4 put in. The problem with this trip is you will end up with more fathers and other leaders then Scouts.:nod:

Great trip.

Mark

That is what the older boys did last year. I went down for a few days to help. they did almost exactly what you mentioned. They will only let us take the younger guys to the merit badge camps. Mabey I need to make a bigger stink about it. I want to go to Zion for weeklong.

[trackrunner]

bump so how did it go?

[Jaxx]

It went awesome! We got there in the morning with an empty ramp. by the time i backed up the trailer to put the boats in the ramp was full! It wasn't very busy on the river, people were spread out. I suicide dived onto the other boat and threw everyone in at the end and made some boys mad, other than that everyone had fun. It took us about 3 hours to float it was all. We would have done it again but we were headed home that day. We missed out on the dam tour because we ran out of dam time and everyone wanted to get home. :crazy:

Thanks for all the info guys and specifically beech for the map. I used it to show the others!

[trackrunner]

did you bring a ducky or just use rafts?

[Jaxx]

We just used rafts.

[trackrunner]

no whitewater merit badge?

[Sombeech]

Pics or it didn't happen :bandit:

[Jaxx]

We didn't work on the merit badge at all. I guess we will have to go back next year!

I didn't take my camera. Sorry.

[trackrunner]

Pics or it didn't happen :bandit:

then it didn't happen.

this thread may even be :spam:

[stan.jarvis]

I was a scout leader for many years and posted a list of all canoeing & whitewater routes within 300 miles of Salt Lake City suitable for scouts on our district website. First read BSA Guide to Safe Scouting, Safety Afloat, etc. In order to obtain a valid tour permit, there are prerequisites you have to start working on now.

That said, given what you say about your level of experience and the schedule you are trying to pull off, here are a few that I've done ( and which I'm planning on doing with youth again next year).

1. Green River Daily. Its high in June, but its better for lower levels of experience since there's more water over the rocks. Camp below at Swasey and shuttle up to Nefertiti to launch in the morning. You can run Swaseys rapid right at camp that evening if you arrive in daylight. Its the best one of the stretch. You can rent rafts and/or ask to get somebody along with experience and knowlege of BSA safety rules.

2. Grand Canyon San Rafael - I've taken both rafts and canoes down this one with scouts. Challenge is it only runs at best a few weeks each year.

3. Sevier River from below Nephi to above Delta. This is mainly flatwater and the 1st 1/3 runs through private land where you can't camp or even land without permission. But the middle part is BLM semi-wildnerness ideal for overnight canoe camping without a lot of experience. There are a half dozen railroad bridges to go under in the canyon.

4. Bear River from Oneida dam to Riverdale Resort. This is above Preston Idaho. You can camp at the NFS campground on the river in the canyon, try the dam to camp Friday evening. Then in the morning take it all the way down to above the highway bridge on Idaho 34. There are a few low head diversion dams. I had fun going over all of them rather than portaging - but don't do it with untrained scouts.

I would avoid both the Colorado River and the Snake River with scouts in June for safety reasons. If you need any help, let me know.