Busy SAR week Pine Creek area rescue 4/30

[trackrunner]

cross posting. First posted in Zion forum by Tim in Hurricane cross posted by Tom to canyons group. cross post here. Not sure if it's one of the climbs in the area or canyoneers at the last rap.

Bo thanks for all you do. Know you wanted to have fun with the family this weekend. Hope you get to soon if your helping on this one too.



This one is ongoing, and thankfully not fatal (yet).

6 or 8 climbers, only ONE "experienced" were rappelling near Pine Creek, when
one (not the "experienced" one) of them slipped & has been suspended & hanging
upside-down since between 6 & 7PM (NPS was notified around 7PM).

As usual, the NPS has done a great job quickly activating their Incident
Command System & assembling general SAR & technical SAR resources, staffing
their Emergency Ops Center & staging rescuers inside the tunnel, at one of the
ventillation windows where they're not carrying out a vertical incident rescue.

Tunnel is shut-down to two-way traffic & all oversized vehicles but one-way
traffic is running.

Up until the past week, I'd been wondering exactly why the NPS Zion NP charges
such a relatively high entrance fee, but now I'm thinking it's necessary just to
pay for their Search & Rescue operations.


Tim in Hurricane

[Scott Card]

What in the world is going on out there? People People People....:nono: If they are staging from the tunnel, my guess is that it is canyoneers at the last rap in Pine Creek.

[Iceaxe]

ONE "experienced"

Without knowing the details.... I'm thinking experianced in this case means "rapped once or twice before".



:popcorn:

[sarahlizzy]

Without knowing the details.... I'm thinking experianced in this case means "rapped once or twice before".

Can't speak generally, but a lot of people taught to rap/abseil as climbers here in the UK seem to have some very odd ideas about how to do it.

Maybe this is someone inverting when wearing their pack and not being able to release a prusik?

[ratagonia]

Can't speak generally, but a lot of people taught to rap/abseil as climbers here in the UK seem to have some very odd ideas about how to do it.

Maybe this is someone inverting when wearing their pack and not being able to release a prusik?

Rappelling with prusiks is very rare over here. Futher rumor has it the ropes were tangled and he got stuck in the tangle, then inverted.

Tom

[sarahlizzy]

Rappelling with prusiks is very rare over here. Futher rumor has it the ropes were tangled and he got stuck in the tangle, then inverted.

I don't understand why so many people seem to like using them here, to be honest, other than, "that's the way I was taught" and "this autobloc thing sounds different and therefore scary".

[oldno7]

Any update on details??

[oldno7]

No updates???

[ratagonia]

No updates???

With great patience comes great possibility.

T

[Iceaxe]

:popcorn:

[nonot]

:tumbleweed:

[Iceaxe]

Zion National Park (UT)
Climber Rescued From Pine Creek Canyon
NPS Morning Report
May 5, 2010

Park dispatch received a report of a climber in distress in Pine Creek Canyon just before 7 p.m. on April 30th. The caller said that a member of his canyoneering party had lost control during the final 100 feet of a rappel and was hanging upside down and unable to right himself. Rangers immediately recognized that this was a life threatening situation. A hasty team responded to a gallery window in the Zion-Mt. Carmel tunnel, where two rangers were lowered to the climber. The rangers were able to get him right side up and connect him to the rescue system. Personnel in the tunnel window then raised all three to a safe location. From initial report to completion of the rescue took just 56 minutes. The fast response is credited with saving the man’s life. Only one person in the party of eight finished the last rappel; due to darkness and the inexperience of the climbers, it was determined that raising all party members to the tunnel window was the appropriate course of action. One lane of traffic was closed in the tunnel for rescue vehicles. A large haul team was required to raise the seven members of climbing party and their two rescuers through five raising evolutions. Nineteen park personnel participated in the operation. The IC was ranger Andrew Fitzgerald. [Submitted by Cindy Purcell, Chief Ranger]

http://home.nps.gov/applications/morningreport/

[Don]

56 minutes. Wow. :clap:

[trackrunner]

upside down. wondering if he was wearing a heavy pack, heavy lopsided person, or something else.

[Alex]

56 minutes! Wow! Hats off to dudes and dudettes out there in S&R :2thumbs:

[Cirrus2000]

Gotta try that upside down rapping some time - sounds kind of cool. :haha:

Kudos to the SAR team on such a quick response! :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

56 minutes from when the NPS was notified.... I'm guessing the dude was hanging upside down much longer....

The group probably spent a large amount of time trying to correct the problem themselves.... and than someone had to notify the NPS there was a problem.... I'm assuming the guy who had made it down first ended up running for help??? So notifying SAR probably took a while....

But yeah.... sounds like once SAR was on the job they did first class work.

[trackrunner]

another thing that helped is they train & rescue at that location a lot. the haul setup for this location probaly is muscle memory to most SAR members.

[Iceaxe]

another thing that helped is they train & rescue at that location a lot.

Yeah... something like 3 Pine Creek rescues already in 2010.... not a great display of skill by the community so far this year when descending the kiddie canyons...

[oldno7]

The simple things that beginners overlook, or simply don't know. On a free hanging rappel hang your pack off the "front" of your harness, avoids abdominal fatigue and reduces the chances of flipping over backwards.(more important in flowing water)
A simple releasable system here(needed for beginners) would have had them at the bit and spur around 8:00pm laughing about the easily corrected mis fortune.

[Iceaxe]

A simple releasable system here(needed for beginners)

The problem with beginners is they don't know enough to know they don't know anything... :haha:

I bet half the folks in Pine Creek end up in there when a friend says... "Hey, I know something really cool we can do in Zion this weekend...."

[Cirrus2000]

A simple releasable system here(needed for beginners) would have had them at the bit and spur around 8:00pm laughing about the easily corrected mis fortune.



I bet half the folks in Pine Creek end up in there when a friend says... "Hey, I know something really cool we can do in Zion this weekend...."


Yep, and yep. :haha:

[trackrunner]

Yeah... something like 3 Pine Creek rescues already in 2010.... not a great display of skill by the community so far this year when descending the kiddie canyons...


The simple things that beginners overlook, or simply don't know. On a free hanging rappel hang your pack off the "front" of your harness, avoids abdominal fatigue and reduces the chances of flipping over backwards.(more important in flowing water)
A simple releasable system here(needed for beginners) would have had them at the bit and spur around 8:00pm laughing about the easily corrected mis fortune.


The problem with beginners is they don't know enough to know they don't know anything... :haha:

I bet half the folks in Pine Creek end up in there when a friend says... "Hey, I know something really cool we can do in Zion this weekend...."


QFE. three really good points

[oldno7]

Also--if a little bit more "experienced", they could have set up a simple 3:1 system and with 5-6 people still waiting up top, hauled the poor upside down guy to the top.(if he was on double strand(likely).)

[Brian in SLC]

On a free hanging rappel hang your pack off the "front" of your harness, avoids abdominal fatigue and reduces the chances of flipping over backwards.(more important in flowing water)
A simple releasable system here(needed for beginners) would have had them at the bit and spur around 8:00pm laughing about the easily corrected mis fortune.

You emphasize "front". Is there any issue with attaching a pack to the back of the harness, say on the haul loop?

Contingency anchor would have probably worked? Dunno. A spare rope and a pick off?

Be interesting to hear the details of what actually happened. I can't imagine being upside down, not being able to right myself, and, not being able to eject a pack that I have on (which I've done before, much to the surpise of a partner who couldn't see me and thought it wasn't a pack!).

I can imagine, without much experience, that last rappel tosses folks for a bit of a loop.

[Brian in SLC]

Also--if a little bit more "experienced", they could have set up a simple 3:1 system and with 5-6 people still waiting up top, hauled the poor upside down guy to the top.(if he was on double strand(likely).)

That might be pretty tough to do at that location. Kinda gave that some thought m'self.

Be faster and much, much easier to do a "drop loop" raise at that location. Drop the guy a pre-rigged pulley on a biner, have them clip in, and then raise him up off that. Does require extra rope, though.

If they only had one rappel rope of 60m, then rigging anything on that loaded line would a been pretty tough, much less a C by Z or 3 to 1 or some such.

Good fodder for thought! Time to dust off the self rescue books I suppose...

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[oldno7]

You emphasize "front". Is there any issue with attaching a pack to the back of the harness, say on the haul loop?
pack!).

.

The idea is to use your pack(in front) to counteract the pull on your abdominal muscles. Anything attached to the back of you or your harness will add to the amount of extra muscle needed to stay upright. I don't know about others, but after about 75-100' of free rappel, If I leave my pack on my back(30-40lbs)It gets harder to stay upright. With it attached in front--smooth sailing, way less fatigue.

[Iceaxe]

not being able to eject a pack that I have on (which I've done before, much to the surpise of a partner who couldn't see me and thought it wasn't a pack!).


I had a partner do this to me in Heaps once and it scared the snot out of me.....

We stashed a 300' rope at the bottom and carried two 60 meter ropes through the slot with us. First guy down was supposed to pass the knot and send up the 300' rope for everyone else.... anyhoo... first guy went down and discover it was difficult to pass the knot while wearing his pack so he let it fly....

I'm sitting up in the bird perch and all I hear is a loud "SLAM".... then.... I have to try and lean over the side and ask the tourist's at the Emerald Pool if he is still alive..... trust me.... that is not a question you ever want to ask... it turns your stomach inside out....

[oldno7]

That might be pretty tough to do at that location. Kinda gave that some thought m'self.



-Brian in SLC

It may very well be tough. My thoughts were to have the "experienced" guy set up the 3:1 while tethered at the anchor. The group is given the pull end of the haul system directly over the rock and up canyon, trying to stay in alignment with the haul. The guy at the anchor is in control and re sets the system each time progress is made. You would have to attache a grab to the double strands of rope, once tension was off the top of the rappel rope, a knot should be placed just above the grab to secure against a slip.
Never done it there, would be fun to do. Any upside down volunteers?

[ratagonia]

You emphasize "front". Is there any issue with attaching a pack to the back of the harness, say on the haul loop?


The difference between clipped in front and clipped in back is small. I guess the thing about being clipped in front (and then I usually toss it over my left leg to get it out of the way) is that it is really within reach, and if I need to manipulate it (through a slot, or over an arete, for instance) then it is "at hand" without gymnastics to reach behind me.

In a class C (flowing water) canyon, or really, whenever it works well, I like having it close to the body, not hanging low. Partly to cut the swing-effect; and partly that when it is hanging low it can get tangled with the rope.

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

It may very well be tough. My thoughts were to have the "experienced" guy set up the 3:1 while tethered at the anchor. The group is given the pull end of the haul system directly over the rock and up canyon, trying to stay in alignment with the haul. The guy at the anchor is in control and re sets the system each time progress is made. You would have to attache a grab to the double strands of rope, once tension was off the top of the rappel rope, a knot should be placed just above the grab to secure against a slip.
Never done it there, would be fun to do. Any upside down volunteers?

Sounds like a bad idea. Hauling upward would not hardly ever be my first choice for a rescue.

If you have the materials to do that, then you have the materials to do a cut and lower, or a rap-down and assist. I think it likely that all their resources were committed to the rappel, and the people up top had nothing they could do to help out, other than scream for help (which works here).

Tom :moses:

To clarify, while called a "cut and lower", it is actually more like a grab, cut and lower. The "cut" is not the first event in the process.

T

[oldno7]

The difference between clipped in front and clipped in back is small.

Tom :moses:

But--the difference from "wearing" your pack, to hanging in front, is huge.

[Iceaxe]

Heck.... if you have an extra rope you just drop it down, tell the dude to hold on (or clip in), and flip him right-side-up....

It would be interesting to know more details....

[oldno7]

Sounds like a bad idea. Hauling upward would not hardly ever be my first choice for a rescue.

If you have the materials to do that, then you have the materials to do a cut and lower, or a rap-down and assist. I think it likely that all their resources were committed to the rappel, and the people up top had nothing they could do to help out, other than scream for help (which works here).

Tom :moses:

To clarify, while called a "cut and lower", it is actually more like a grab, cut and lower. The "cut" is not the first event in the process.

T

Agree, thats why I originally stated if they had rigged a contingency, this would have never been anymore than a joke among friends. So simple.
A cut and lower would require enough rope to match the rappel height. A haul would only require 20ish'. It's probably all a moot point, I very much doubt they had any more than 1 rope.

[Don]

The problem with beginners is they don't know enough to know they don't know anything... :haha:

I bet half the folks in Pine Creek end up in there when a friend says... "Hey, I know something really cool we can do in Zions this weekend...."


There, I fixed it for you. Now it sounds like beginners in Zion.

[Iceaxe]

There, I fixed it for you. Now it sounds like beginners in Zion.

:roflmao1:

[Brian in SLC]

The idea is to use your pack(in front) to counteract the pull on your abdominal muscles. Anything attached to the back of you or your harness will add to the amount of extra muscle needed to stay upright. I don't know about others, but after about 75-100' of free rappel, If I leave my pack on my back(30-40lbs)It gets harder to stay upright. With it attached in front--smooth sailing, way less fatigue.

I've not really noticed much difference between front and back. I'll agree that front is better for controlling the pack, if you need to get at it and its fairly heavy. Have rappelled a number of times with a fairly heavy haul bag on the front and that works great. Have also rappelled free a number of times with a fairly heavy pack on the back of my harness on the haul loop and no problem there either.

Not convinced it counteracts any pull on the abs, either, versus no pack or pack on the back of the harness. Maybe I need to do a bunch of core exercises, get my abs all worn out, and see if I note any difference. Pretty much all distributed on the belay loop so the balance point? Trying to envision what it does from a balanced load situation. Just pulls pretty much down where the rope is pulling up. Net effect on the abs? None? Dunno. Need to think about it I suppose. How to measure?

Huge difference versus wearing it, to be darn sure.

But...really...who goes through Pine Creek with a 30 to 40 pound pack? Ha ha...

*****

Yeah, Shane, the pack ejection thing. Probably the second to last rappel in Jacob Canyon, wasn't sure the rope reached (went past a dubious piton anchor). Near the end of the rope, tossed the pack down as I didn't want it on me to negotiate the rope end. Really wigged my partner out. He heard it hit then saw it roll and thought for sure it was me. I kinda get a chuckle out of it in hindsite, but, also realize I put him through some fairly heady stuff right then too.

Makes me think its been too long since I've done Pine Creek...!

-Brian in SLC

[nonot]

But--the difference from "wearing" your pack, to hanging in front, is huge.

I have never had the need, or the inkling that I should to take my 40+lb pack from my shoulders and hang it from my harness except in really tight canyons where I can't fit through with a pack on, except once which was just to try it for grins. I haven't flipped other ever on high rappels nor those with lots of freehang. Dunno why you guys make such a big deal out of this?

[trackrunner]

are you a big guy? are you top heavy? do you have man boobs? these people are more prone to flip when there center of gravity is changed by a pack.

pic stolen from canyonwiki
http://www.canyonwiki.com/wiki/images/8/84/Rapping_c_pack_copy.jpg




edit: if you were :fishing: you totally got me. I'll leave the post for someone who this may be helpful for.

[nonot]

Maybe it affects others more, to each their own. I've observed I do lightly grab the rope above the rap device at times, it sure doesn't seem to require the effort the others are describing.

[ratagonia]

Maybe it affects others more, to each their own. I've observed I do lightly grab the rope above the rap device at times, it sure doesn't seem to require the effort the others are describing.

Abs of steel?

:moses:

[Bo_Beck]

Hope the park releases more info. about the situation one of these days?! I'm sure all of the points made have great merit so far, but a whole set of rules might apply upon further assessment? Had a pretty good talk with one of those involved on the specific incident, and seems that other factors may have come into play?

[Cirrus2000]

Curiouser and curiouser...

:popcorn:

[Brian in SLC]

Hope the park releases more info. about the situation one of these days?! I'm sure all of the points made have great merit so far, but a whole set of rules might apply upon further assessment? Had a pretty good talk with one of those involved on the specific incident, and seems that other factors may have come into play?

Dish the dirt!

Hopin' there's some way you can give us a bit of insight and nourishment here.

Even a general sense would be...interesting.

Cheers, Bo!

-Brian in SLC

[sarahlizzy]

As something of a noob, I have a question about lowering systems. Assuming I was in this situation, and had rigged a 'biner block without a contingency anchor, I think my initial thought would be to rig a second sling anchor from the bolts, pass the pull cord through it with a munter hitch, take up the tension in it, and then cut the original webbing anchor, thus releasing the biner block and allowing me to lower the stranded canyoneer to the bottom using the second anchor I built.

Is this a sensible or a completely crazy thing to do? I imagine it would be difficult to avoid shock-loading the new anchor when the original one is cut, which would worry me. Is there a better way to get someone down if they're rapping single strand and a contingency anchor hasn't been rigged? I'm assuming releasing the 'biner block with the weight of a person on it is going to be nearly impossible, and even then there's no way the EDK would pass through the rapide anyway, right?

[oldno7]

Hope the park releases more info. about the situation one of these days?! I'm sure all of the points made have great merit so far, but a whole set of rules might apply upon further assessment? Had a pretty good talk with one of those involved on the specific incident, and seems that other factors may have come into play?

Thanks Bo, hope we can get more information at some point.
I really don't think these mental exercises are a bad thing though, they get us all thinking and that is good in a sport that any one of us is susceptible to a brain fart that can have dire consequences.

[oldno7]

Sarah
I think you've asked some great questions, some of the answers may be more complex, maybe best not learned over the internets. I will say, your idea has potential, but, please don't do it with cord. Most accessory cord I'm familiar with is rated in the 1500-1700lb range. A hard bounce from your upside down partner may test this cord to the limit, especially taking into account a loss of around 30% +/- of strength with a knot. I would suggest replacing your pull cords with an 8mm line, the weight savings may cost someone dearly, 8mm rope gives you a lot more potential over 6mm cord.

[Brian in SLC]

As something of a noob, I have a question about lowering systems. Assuming I was in this situation, and had rigged a 'biner block without a contingency anchor, I think my initial thought would be to rig a second sling anchor from the bolts, pass the pull cord through it with a munter hitch, take up the tension in it, and then cut the original webbing anchor, thus releasing the biner block and allowing me to lower the stranded canyoneer to the bottom using the second anchor I built.
Is this a sensible or a completely crazy thing to do??

I think anytime you have a sharp knife near any loaded cord/rope/sling, you run the risk of something very bad happening.

Also, what if the webbing on the anchor isn't webbing, but is chain? You're not going to be able to cut it.

Doesn't Tom have a nifty method for unweighting the block?

[sarahlizzy]

Sarah
I think you've asked some great questions, some of the answers may be more complex, maybe best not learned over the internets. I will say, your idea has potential, but, please don't do it with cord.

Were I to ever contemplate doing something like this, I'd be sure to use a second rope. Indeed, it strikes me that this might best be done with climbing rope, as it's rather better at absorbing a shock load than static.

[sarahlizzy]

Also, what if the webbing on the anchor isn't webbing, but is chain? You're not going to be able to cut it.

Doesn't Tom have a nifty method for unweighting the block?

Yes, it the event that it's not webbing, this fails at the first hurdle. Pretty sure this rap has a webbing anchor, though?

Would be very interested in hearing about how to unweight the block, not necessarily in a "teaching someone to do incredibly dangerous things over the Internet" way, but more to satisfy my inner rope geek. I might be tempted to try it in a controlled environment with, say, a loaded backpack hanging on the rope rather than someone whom I might subsequently have to take to hospital and be asked embarrassing questions about.

[trackrunner]

sarah your question has been talked about in some of these threads

How to pass a knot when belaying from the top??
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?35802-Question-How-to-pass-a-knot-when-belaying-from-the-top&p=372984&viewfull=1#post372984

Stuck on Rappel needing rescue. (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?37639-Stuck-on-Rappel-needing-rescue.&p=387331&viewfull=1)
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?37639-Stuck-on-Rappel-needing-rescue.&p=387331&viewfull=1#post387331

related to topic Scenario - Flipped Upside Down (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?35610-Scenario-Flipped-Upside-Down&p=371101&viewfull=1)
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?35610-Scenario-Flipped-Upside-Down&p=371101&viewfull=1#post371101

[moab mark]

Yes, it the event that it's not webbing, this fails at the first hurdle. Pretty sure this rap has a webbing anchor, though?

Would be very interested in hearing about how to unweight the block, not necessarily in a "teaching someone to do incredibly dangerous things over the Internet" way, but more to satisfy my inner rope geek. I might be tempted to try it in a controlled environment with, say, a loaded backpack hanging on the rope rather than someone whom I might subsequently have to take to hospital and be asked embarrassing questions about.

Sarah, go buy the book Self Rescue. It will keep you entertained for weeks.
Mark

[Cirrus2000]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514T7Q1YVTL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Self-Rescue-How-Rock-Climb/dp/0934641978
Note the UK URL- dang, I'm helpful...

Great, great book.

[ratagonia]

Yes, it the event that it's not webbing, this fails at the first hurdle. Pretty sure this rap has a webbing anchor, though?

Would be very interested in hearing about how to unweight the block, not necessarily in a "teaching someone to do incredibly dangerous things over the Internet" way, but more to satisfy my inner rope geek. I might be tempted to try it in a controlled environment with, say, a loaded backpack hanging on the rope rather than someone whom I might subsequently have to take to hospital and be asked embarrassing questions about.

Quickly, here is the outline for converting a biner block to a munter hitch lower:

1. grab the loaded strand of the rope about 12" below the biner block. (You guys still use inches?) A tibloc works well here as a rope grab.
2. run a sling (preferably a double-length spectra sling) THROUGH a clear biner (a biner with nothing else in it) that is high on the anchor. Bring the sling back down to your waist and clip it to your harness. This forms a counter-balance.
3. think heavy thoughts. It helps if the person you are "converting" weighs less than you, or if they are not free-hanging and can get some of their weight off the rope. It may also be possible to use bystanders to help. Pull the person up 2", enough to release tension on the block.
4. take the biner block off the rope.
5. clip the biner into the anchor, and toss a munter hitch onto it. Pull the munter hitch tight. Mule the munter hitch off, or otherwise secure it.
6. think light thoughts. Lower the person until the weight is on the munter hitch.
7. remove the tibloc and sling.
8. lower person to the ground using the munter hitch.

There are a FEW complications that must be addressed with all this. We can cover this when you are out here.

With practice, this takes about 45 seconds to execute.

Tom :moses:

[Bo_Beck]

Quickly, here is the outline for converting a biner block to a munter hitch lower:

1. grab the loaded strand of the rope about 12" below the biner block. (You guys still use inches?) A tibloc works well here as a rope grab.
2. run a sling (preferably a double-length spectra sling) THROUGH a clear biner (a biner with nothing else in it) that is high on the anchor. Bring the sling back down to your waist and clip it to your harness. This forms a counter-balance.

3. think heavy thoughts. It helps if the person you are "converting" weighs less than you, or if they are not free-hanging and can get some of their weight off the rope. It may also be possible to use bystanders to help. Pull the person up 2", enough to release tension on the block.
4. take the biner block off the rope.
5. clip the biner into the anchor, and toss a munter hitch onto it. Pull the munter hitch tight. Mule the munter hitch off, or otherwise secure it.
6. think light thoughts. Lower the person until the weight is on the munter hitch.
7. remove the tibloc and sling.
8. lower person to the ground using the munter hitch.

There are a FEW complications that must be addressed with all this. We can cover this when you are out here.


With practice, this takes about 45 seconds to execute.

Tom :moses:


If you are alone, and the counterbalance doesn't work to unload the biner-bloc another option would be to add a carbiner to the carabiner in the tibloc and pass the sling through that carabiner instead of clipping it to your harness. This results in an upward pull, but a 3:1 MA (minus the inefficiencies of friction). The only thing I would suggest prior to beginning this un-weighting process is to insure that your progression passes the "whistle test". If for some reason you were to lose grip on the MA and were to lose control after the bloc were removed would your passenger hit the ground? Pre-rig your munter/mule hitch with a separate carabiner next to the bloc biner. Point to remember is that the disadvantage with a 3:1 MA is that you'll have to release 3' of sling for 1' of lower onto the munter, so I would suggest using your cordelette for this process instead of a sling. Just as a thought.

With Toms process your body closes the system and dis-allows failure, just that if you're a 120 Lb. person trying to raise a 150 Lb. person on a 1:1 (really not a 1:1 because a carabiner is about 60% efficient when it comes to friction) you might have some problems?

[ratagonia]

If you are alone, and the counterbalance doesn't work to unload the biner-bloc another option would be to add a carbiner to the carabiner in the tibloc and pass the sling through that carabiner instead of clipping it to your harness. This results in an upward pull, but a 3:1 MA (minus the inefficiencies of friction). The only thing I would suggest prior to beginning this un-weighting process is to insure that your progression passes the "whistle test". If for some reason you were to lose grip on the MA and were to lose control after the bloc were removed would your passenger hit the ground? Pre-rig your munter/mule hitch with a separate carabiner next to the bloc biner. Point to remember is that the disadvantage with a 3:1 MA is that you'll have to release 3' of sling for 1' of lower onto the munter, so I would suggest using your cordelette for this process instead of a sling. Just as a thought.

With Toms process your body closes the system and dis-allows failure, just that if you're a 120 Lb. person trying to raise a 150 Lb. person on a 1:1 (really not a 1:1 because a carabiner is about 60% efficient when it comes to friction) you might have some problems?

Which is where the actual training comes in, very useful. I would go for a Mariner's knot kind of thing, which produces some mechanical advantage for those without gravitational advantage, but with a few caveats: A. always apply the weight downward; and B. always apply the weight by being clipped in to your strong point.

The "Whistle Test" is used in SAR, and the idea is if the commander blows the whistle, everyone drops everything (lets go of everything), and NOTHING HAPPENS. In a 'hasty rescue' environment, this is sometimes/often violated, but should only be violated for a good reason. For instance, in this case, the counter-balance is done clipped into the sling, so that it does not require you to hold on for safety. The lower off a munter on the anchor does not pass the whistle test, because it does require you holding on; but with the munter in the system, you need only hold on with 10-15 lbs, and it is the ONLY thing you are doing, when you do it. In a SAR situation, the lower would be backed up by a prusik minded by another person, so if everyone let go, the prusik would grab and nothing would happen.

Lots of details involved. The first few times you do this under pressure, you learn what details are important. Training is important. Practice is important. Not getting in trouble in the first place is most important.

Tom

[sarahlizzy]

Thanks guys. That's really interesting. Seems I have a book purchase in my future and that finding a nice sturdy oak tree to play with could be educational.

Sorry for the delayed response. I wasn't ignoring you - there was this small matter of getting elected to local government I had to attend to! :haha: :haha:

[sarahlizzy]

There are a FEW complications that must be addressed with all this. We can cover this when you are out here.


That would be the very definition of awesome!

[Brian in SLC]

Seems I have a book purchase in my future and that finding a nice sturdy oak tree to play with could be educational.

I'd recommend this over the book referenced above (I have both):

http://www.amazon.com/Climbing-Self-Rescue-Improvising-Mountaineers/dp/089886772X/ref=pd_rhf_p_t_2 (http://www.amazon.com/Climbing-Self-Rescue-Improvising-Mountaineers/dp/089886772X/ref=pd_rhf_p_t_2)

http://www.mountaineersbooks.org/client/Products/ProdimageLg/772X.jpg (http://www.mountaineersbooks.org/client/Products/ProdimageLg/772X.jpg)

Andy/Molly's book has easier to grasp explanations. I find the Falcon book a bit too cumbersome and I don't get take-away info other than the systems described are very complicated.

I'd be curious if anyone has looked at this (on your side of the puddle even):

On the BMC’s site, a DVD self rescue for climbers:

http://www.bmcshop.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=5270

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[Brian in SLC]

33696

[moab mark]

33696
Funny how people see things differently, I have the above book and felt the other one was more imformative?:ne_nau: