Are you or someone you know ADHD? Not a joke post - serious!

[Randi]

Does anyone on this board have experience with ADHD or any other

[Scott Card]

It is interesting that we label this behavior and medicate. My mom had the perfect "medicine" for me. It was her hand or foot across my backside. Cleared up the symptoms very quickly. Darn near miraculous!:2thumbs:

[Scott P]

Does anyone on this board have experience with ADHD or any other “attention” or “behavioral” disorders?

I was diagnosed with hyperactivity (now ADHD) when I was a kid. More specifically it was when I was in second grade when I had to go to another school.

I was put on medications and for me at least, it did help and the behavior problems did disappear. The teacher could when I forgot to take the meds and when I took them. By fourth grade my reading, writing and math skills for four years ahead of "average". I skipped 5th grade and graduated high school at 16. I also scored 34 on my ACT. It wasn't the meds that caused this, but it is worth mentioning that kids that may seem to be hyperactive are not "stupid".

[Jaxx]

That is messed up. I think it would be better diagnosed as nature deficit disorder. Kids just need to be outside more and stimulate their brains instead of letting them melt it infront of the tv.

oh and ODD is a freaking joke! That just proves that drug companies don't give a crap about the users, they care about the $$$.

[mtthwlw]

I'm a school counselor, and I tend to agree. Most of what we see (and poorly diagnose) as ADhD is a result of poor parenting, too much TV time and video games, and sleep deprivation.

Turn off the dang TV. Let your kids run outside. Put them to bed at a reasonable hour (young kids need as much as 10 hours a night. Teenagers, need 9 or more to function properly). Give your kids limits. Read books and magazines-- maps and trail guides even-- with your kids. Have a family hobby (we do beekeeping) or give them a family pet to care for to teach them responsibility. Go on vacations together.

It sounds easy, doesn't it?

To be sure, there ARE kids out there with genuine mental issues and a fraction of those have a need for meds... but not many kids really fit into that category. We see a lot of kids doped-up who shouldn't be.

[mtthwlw]

After thinking about this all day now, I wouldn't want anyone to think that I believe that the list I typed represents any type of a guarantee... doing those things won't insure that your family will be perfect-- just that it's one way to give modern families a good shot at having well-adjusted kids. (Even well-adjusted hyperactive kids.)

Hyperactivity isn't a disease.

[denaliguide]

medicating those who are defiant and question authority? what a great way to control a whole population.

[jfeiro]

medicating those who are defiant and question authority? what a great way to control a whole population.


Groovy, the sixties all over again......bring on the Grateful Dead!!

[Iceaxe]

or any other “attention” or “behavioral” disorders?

I'm an attention whore.... does that count??? :banana:

[Scott Card]

I'm an attention whore.... does that count??? :banana: Yes, but I believe that it has been established that beer is your medication of choice. :haha: Yer good...

[denaliguide]

ice, i would double up on the meds just to be sure. :lol8:

[ddavis]

Yes, I have experience with a son diagnosed with ADHD. It happened in 2nd grade, and my experience with the school when the problem started to emerge, particularly with his teacher, was bad. She couldn't control him in class. I used to volunteer, so I was there one day a week for a few hours, but never saw anything (he behaved when I was there).

I didn't have any idea there was a problem until parent teacher conference, when she told me that she couldn't control him and was ready to make arrangements to have him moved into a closed classroom. I had to go ask what that meant (I had a lot of trouble figuring out what teachers were trying to tell me through the years; they speak a code to avoid offending parents, and I never did get the secret decoder ring - it was very frustrating) - it meant she wanted him placed in a program for behavioral/learning disorders.

The school did some testing which they mislead me about. I was talked into signing a blanket consent, with the assurance they would inform me of all the testing before they administered it, but when I sat down with school officials, they had done a whole battery of tests I knew nothing about. They must have had him in testing for a solid week. I also felt like I was ambushed when I met with the teacher to discuss the results of the testing. I thought it was meeting between the two of us, but when I showed up, there were three or four people there.

It's a damn good thing I am a working scientist, and I know how to interpret data. They started showing me the results of their testing, which seemed to be primarily aimed at learning disabilities, and the main point seemed to be that although he had scored well below his peers, he wasn't low enough to qualify for special ed classes. At this point I started to get angry, and I insisted on seeing the actual tests. When I looked at them, I was astounded, because he had missed questions I knew he knew. The results of those tests didn't match up with what I saw at home.

It was at that point the school's social worker pulled out the IQ test she had given him (another one I didn't know about). She said that he had scored in the 120's, was academically a grade and a half ahead of his grade level, and she finished by saying she wished all the kids she worked with were that bright. My son's teacher looked completely shocked, and she reached into a file folder and started pulling out his poorly done homework, almost sputtering. When I look back on it now, I think she was so sure he would qualify for the school's resource class, and was so anxious to get him out of her class, that the results of the IQ test were a terrible disappointment to her.

It's also a good thing I had medical insurance, because I was able to take him to a psychologist, who turned out to be excellent (at least in my opinion). I had already talked to him, because when a teacher tells me there is a serious problem, I take that very seriously. I don't know much about kids, and I relied on teachers for their experience and insight. My son's 2nd grade teacher broke a lot of that trust for me. Anyway, I had already started working with the doctor before that meeting, and he had already started talking about ADHD - at that point he was not making a diagnosis, he was preparing me to not get rushed or pressured by the school. I had some information to work with when I went to that meeting, and I was able to ask some questions that made his test results make sense.

It took quite a while (months) to make the diagnosis of ADHD, and I tried the behavioral treatment first, before I tried medication. I think he would have responded well to behavioral therapy (which consisted primarily of consistency, logical consequences, schedule, and techniques to make transitions between activities easier), but all the primary care givers have to do it, and I couldn't get his teacher to follow through, and his father simply refused to even try. He was clear when we met with the doctor - he was interested in being friends with his kids, but not so much in being a parent. I tried to make that work for nearly a year, but my son was having more and more difficulty. I was the only adult who could control him. It was hard, but I was able to keep him from acting up. The problem was I seemed to be the only one who could.

I finally made the decision to medicate my son part way through 3rd grade. It was a tough decision. I got no pressure from the school to medicate (and I wouldn't have paid any attention to anything they said to me by that time anyway). My ex was very against my decision, but he could never get past the 'not my kid' stage (aka 'how does this make me look' stage), so I just ignored him too. I kept him informed, but since he wasn't thinking about what was best for our son, I ignored his opinion.

The medication made a hell of a difference, right up until my son started to refuse to take it. He didn't like the way it made him feel. I think it's nearly impossible to force an adolescent to take a medication against their will, so I let him make the choice to stop taking it. We discussed the likeley outcome, and I tried to work with him on ways to cope with the ADHD in school, but he didn't really want to. He did poorly in high school and dropped out. He's bright however, and reasonably well self-educated, so he walked in cold and passed the GED test the summer before he turned 19.

My son is currently taking the hard road to adulthood, and I don't know how it's going to turn out. Because of the ADHD (or more importantly, the fact that he doesn't control it or take advantage of it either), he makes some decisions that are not in his best interest in the long run. But I do see him starting to think about the future, and make some long term plans, and that's encouraging. He's bright and charming (which I sometimes see as a disadvantage - he can get people to do things for him and avoid some of the consequences of his decisions), and he's a good kid, so I'll just have to see what happens.

[StudChild]

to many words + no pictures = I read the first paragraph then I am done.:lol8: :sleeping: :worthless:

[Iceaxe]

I don't know much about kids, and I relied on teachers for their experience and insight. My son's 2nd grade teacher broke a lot of that trust for me.


Now this I've had some experience with.... the problem is some teacher's take a couple of psychology classes in college and suddenly consider themselves doctors....

[ddavis]

Now this I've had some experience with.... the problem is some teacher's take a couple of psychology classes in college and suddenly consider themselves doctors....

I don't think that was the problem with this particular teacher. She had several behavior problems in that class, more than her share. She was also taking classes on her own time (working on her professional certs, I believe), and she had a couple deaths (neighbors/relatives, not close) to deal with.

I think she was overwhelmed, and looking to dump kids. I think she picked mine as an easy target. I don't think she was working with me in good faith, or trying to do what was best for him. I'm sympathetic to her situation, but even after all this time, I'm still pissed at what she did. I lost a lot of respect for her as a result.

[Randi]

to many words + no pictures = I read the first paragraph then I am done.:lol8: :sleeping: :worthless:

Well, I'm reading this thread without pictures, and am quite happy you took the time to share your experience Deb. Thanks. You too Scott and MTTHWLW (sorry - I don't know your name). I'll reply when I have time, but I won't have pix -----

[TreeHugger]

I'm a 22 year special education teacher with a masters in counseling and have, and am currently, worked with gen ed at risk students. Here's my input:

1. Deb - schoosl cannot legally evaluate for any kind of special education - i.e. behavioral evals, IQ testing, academic testing without a SIGNED permission to evaluate form. Whatever was going on in that school is not the norm, or shouldnt be anyway. There is a whole PROCESS that students must go through before any kind of special ed placement is even considered (the closed classroom you talked about) as mandated by IDEA.

2. ADHD/ADD is a chemical imbalance in the brain. The brain produces a particular kind of chemical that allows "normal" people to filter out distractions, thoughts, impluses, etc. in order to focus and sit still and complete tasks. People with ADD/ADHD do not produce this chemical. Medicating can help - it simply stimulates the brain to produce this. In a student that is truly ADD/ADHD this works exceptionally well. Dosage and type of medication may have to be tweeked in order to avoid unpleasant side effects. Behavioral and coping strategies need to be taught. Many people have ADD/ADHD and function well because they've learned how to compensate for the problems caused by the ADHD/ADD, although, they have to be motivated to do so, and that's not always easy.

3. Many students that have ADD/ADHD can be evaluated/diagnosed and get a 504 Plan which provides for accommodations in general educations classes without being labled special ed and placed in resource classes.

4. There are many behavioral issues that can be evaluated. In some, meds might help, in others, behavior intervention plans may be needed (usually the case). These BIPs are to be developed in public schools by behavior specialists and hopefully, can be implemented in the general education classes (with accommodations mandated per 504), but most times, if severe, a behavioral unit or resource class support might be needed this would require a special education classification which is, again, a huge process, which includes parent input, teacher input, etc. Schools CANNOT make medical diagnosis. School psychologists can identify areas such as depression, ADHD type behaviors (ADHD is a medical diagnois), anxiety, etc. and make recommendations for treatment/programming.

I have worked with a gazillion ADHD students (among other "labeled" kids) and no doubt they can be extremely difficult and trying in a classroom, but they can also be some of the most fun and charismatic students you'll have. ADHD students need a great teacher that has the skills, patience, and understanding to work with them well. Teachers need to be trained to work with these students and most general education teachers are not. There are many strategies and tips to working with ADHD kids that are very helpful, but if these teachers have never been trained in this, they wont know how to effectively work with these often difficult kids.

[Spooky]

I learned a ton about ADHD after spending several years on my bully pulpit talking about how parents need to parent their kids instead of medicate them. At the time, I had 3 high energy kids, and I enjoyed that. We hiked, biked, played hackey-sack, 4-square, kick the can, any high activity sport. They were total brats, but also were honor roll students with honors in citizenship, and just plain fun to be around. If they were having a hard time focusing on something, I made it fun for them by making up imaginary games to go with the activity, or perhaps take them to the park to do their homework...change of pace. It always, always worked.

So I could not, for the life of me, understand why someone would want to medicate a high energy kid. I had a lot to say about that, too.

Then I had Josh. Sweet, happy kid, very mellow, slept through the night at birth, seemed like the kid that added some calmness to our family. Until he turned 6. And then it was like a switch went off in his brain and the kid flipped out. He could NOT sit still (he would often sit at his desk by standing on his head on his chair), was not learning how to read despite hours of extra tutoring by a specialist and me, was hugely disruptive in class and at home it was even worse. He ran out of the house, just took off to parts unknown, constantly. I literally could not use the restroom without taking him with me; otherwise he'd use the chance to escape.

We created an obstacle course in the backyard, and when Josh's energy level was ramping up, I'd have him go run it. That did help, but they didn't have obstacle courses at school. One day, the principle called me and said, "Josh is climbing the walls. No...I mean that literally. He's in my office, on the back of the couch trying to climb up the wall." I watched Josh through the window in the office door, and it looked like business as usual to me....Josh going 300 mph while the world around him moved at 10 mph.

The biggest problem was he was not learning. He wasn't able to filter out distractions when he was trying to concentrate. So you and I do this: When we're reading a book, there are all kinds of sounds going on around us. The neighbor's lawn mower, a t.v. in the other room, your dog farting, whatever. Just all kinds of noise. But you're reading, so your brain filters that noise out so you can concentrate. Josh was not filtering anything out. His brain heard every little noise, so his head was turning this way, that way, back again, all around and his book went unread.

I researched child psychiatrists and found one whose percentage of diagnosing ADHD was low. That meant a lot to me...finding someone who didn't just automatically diagnose it. She spent 6 weeks with Josh, observing him in all kinds of situations and environments, did IQ testing, memory testing, just all kinds of tests. In the end, she told me that not only was Josh ADHD, that he's in the 99th percentile of how severely he's affected by ADHD.

But even with all of that, the best way to find out if a kid is TRULY ADHD is to give him/her speed. Because ADHD is a chemical imbalance of some type in the brain, an ADHD kid will react entirely different to speed than you or I would. I gave Josh a bit of Ritalin and all our lives changed dramatically....most of all, HIS. He was still hyper, still energetic, still happy go lucky and still himself, but when he needed to concentrate on something, he finally could. Ritalin gave his brain an extra second to think before responding, so instead of blurting out nonsensical things when asked questions, he was focused and answered correctly.

I had to eat all those awful words I'd said about parents and teachers drugging their kids just to be able to control them. Sometimes, it's just the way it is. I have no doubt kids who don't need medication, just better parenting, are being drugged. I know Josh isn't one of them.

Josh is now 15 and beginning to outgrow the condition. But since he was 6, he's been on medication on school days. His GPA is 3.9, he's got honors in citizenship for every class, he volunteers to help disabled students, he's on the school's greeting committee, plays basketball and is incredibly active after school, and instead of being behind in classes he is in AP classes for math and science. On days when he doesn't take medication, it's very difficult to deal with him. He's all OVER the place. He can't take instructions unless you give them to him bit by bit, one tiny thing at a time. He's scatter brained, blurts out what ever is on his mind, talks incessantly, can't sleep, gets injured quite a bit because he's not thinking straight (he actually ran into a metal pole, full blast, causing a double concussion. The optic nerve bounced around in his skull so hard that he went blind in that eye). But that's okay on off days, because I'm here to help him and deal with him constantly. It's more important that he get a break from the meds than me having him "controlled." Josh prefers himself on meds because he feels he can control himself better.

So that's how I see it now. A completely different outlook once you have a kid who is genuinely and severely affected by this disorder.

And I can look you in the eye and tell you in all honesty that it's not because he watched too much t.v. (he wasn't allowed to), not because I didn't parent him (I'm a very involved parent), not because his teachers didn't want to deal with him (they did and were concerned because he was falling so far behind, despite being obviously intelligent) and not because we didn't try every other option first. We did. I simply did not believe in drugging a kid. But for Josh, it's actually freed him. Freed him from the noise and distractions his brain otherwise can't filter out, allowing him to actually use and practice his intelligence. It's a tool. And I don't really care if he's qualified for military service or not...what matters the most is that he get a decent education, something he'd absolutely not have been able to do without medication.

ADHS is a very real disorder, but I believe it's far less common than what it being diagnosed. For kids who have it, medication can be a life saver. For kids who don't, medication cause literally cause psychosis.

As far as Oppositional Defiant Disorder? What a load of crap. That's called being a teenager. :roll:

[Scott Card]

The question and perhaps my false perception is, isn't ADHD over diagnosed? I have had juvenile clients who were diagnosed and then simply quit all the meds and were better off by a long shot. Some, and my limited experience is, are properly diagnosed. Many are diagnosed by default either by crappy parents or, dare I say, lazy medical professionals. Tree, and others in the know, I would be curious on your take on this issue of default/over diagnosing.

Interestingly enough, it has been soooo diagnosed that many in the Juvenile Justice system are, let's say, less than impressed when a parent or I argue in the child's behalf that they have ADHD. Unfortunately for the legitimate cases, the "boy who cried wolf" seems to be the perception of many.

[Iceaxe]

Do You Have Adult ADHD?
http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/AdultADHD_1004.html

Nope--- I'm good....

[TreeHugger]

The question and perhaps my false perception is, isn't ADHD over diagnosed? I have had juvenile clients who were diagnosed and then simply quit all the meds and were better off by a long shot. Some, and my limited experience is, are properly diagnosed. Many are diagnosed by default either by crappy parents or, dare I say, lazy medical professionals. Tree, and others in the know, I would be curious on your take on this issue of default/over diagnosing.

Interestingly enough, it has been soooo diagnosed that many in the Juvenile Justice system are, let's say, less than impressed when a parent or I argue in the child's behalf that they have ADHD. Unfortunately for the legitimate cases, the "boy who cried wolf" seems to be the perception of many.

Scott,
Yes, I would agree with you, that ADHD is very often misdiagnosed, over diagnosed and over medicated. Sometimes it's the parents that dont want to deal with an off the wall kid (let's face it, they can be exhausting) and sometimes its the teacher that doesnt want to deal with the off the wall kid so someone pushes the diagnosis and medication. (side note: teachers cannot by law "diagnose" ADHD or anything else OR recommend medication) What I believe/find is that kids that are not truly ADHD (read: chemical imbalance) will not react favorably to the meds; they zombie out, dont feel good, or it doesnt help. If the child is truly ADHD the meds can do wonders, as in Spooky's case with her son. Think of it like diabetes or depression - the meds are not evil, the correct an imbalance. General "off the wall" kids can be that way for a number of reasons... an accurate diagnosis, behavioral strategies and coping skills are essential.

[ddavis]

I sure wish you had been in my son's school when he was first diagnosed, Treehugger, although my son's diagnosis was made 13 years ago, and some of what is available now might not have been back then. I certainly wasn't told about anything, and I didn't find anything when I researched it either. I think my son's diagnosis was a good one; the psychologist spent quite some time (three or four months, as I recall), doing his own assessment, having us do assessments (his father assessed him as a perfect child, his teacher as the devil, and I had him somewhere in between), and using all the tests the school did. We did a medical evaluation to rule out anything else, too - it was quite a lengthy process. Like Spooky, I learned a hell of a lot about ADHD, although my kid wasn't nearly as affected.

Because I spent so much time at the school, I picked up bits of information, and one of the things I noticed was the number of kids on Ritalin in my son's classes as he worked his way through elementary school. It seemed like anywhere from 15-20% of the class was on Ritalin; most of them were boys. Another thing that I thought was a bit ironic- a bunch of those medicated boys, including my son, went into the ALPS program (for gifted kids) when they hit jr high. A bunch of them did not make it through high school - they dropped out.

I don't know if the condition is overdiagnosed. It certainly looks that way to me, but I'm not in a position to make a decent judgment about it. I also wouldn't presume to judge other parents decisions - I know neglectful parents exist, but I actually haven't seen very many. I think it's a hard diagnosis, and I also think it isn't just a question of something not working right in the kid. It seemed to me at the time that 'attention' was a spectrum type of behavior, with people sitting somewhere along a very wide range of what was possible. At what point does the lack of attention get too low? I mean, it's easy to tell if you're talking about blood and iron, but what about attention? I think the answer to that is that it depends on the environment the kid has to live in, in other words, the lack of 'attention' becomes ADHD when it gets to a level that compromises the ability to function in society. What that meant to me was that the environment a kid lives in plays a key role in the diagnosis. In other words, a kid can be ADHD in one environment, but not another. And the environment for kids in this culture old enough to exhibit ADHD behaviors is mainly school. I have sometimes wondered if the problem isn't that kids have so much less ability to focus now than way back when (I think kids are just about as wild now as they have ever been), but that schools have changed, and are now structured in a way that just doesn't fit well with what children are able to do - if that makes any sense. I haven't thought about this in years, so I'm a bit vague.

One thing I did learn through all of this is that, as a parent, there was a lot I didn't control. All the standard things, like the culture and so on, but the biggies, like my son's father (who was inconsistent to a fault, refused to be a parent, got in the way of my parenting, then ultimately left the country), the schools (trying to get the schools to enforce their own rules was a constant issue for me), but mostly my son. I don't mean his behavior, I was able to control that, and he's a reasonably decent person now, but I didn't control how he wanted to deal with his ADHD, or how he used the educational opportunities he got.

[Felicia]

Do You Have Adult ADHD?
http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/AdultADHD_1004.html

Nope--- I'm good....


Hummmm...interesting.

This thread has been very interesting regarding children. How about adults?

[Jaxx]

Thanks for your insight Tree, Spooky, and others.

I need to clarify my comment. I meant ODD is a joke, teens acting as teens. I think ADHD is real but way over diagnosed. I have no medical training, just couch quarterbacking.

[Spooky]

Thanks for your insight Tree, Spooky, and others.

I need to clarify my comment. I meant ODD is a joke, teens acting as teens. I think ADHD is real but way over diagnosed. I have no medical training, just couch quarterbacking.

I think ODD is a joke, too. :haha:

I honestly think if Josh hadn't had Concerta (the drug we ultimately ended up with because it didn't interfere with his appetite) his life would have been entirely different. And much more negative. I'm so grateful we got on top of it as soon as we did.

I also think some kids might be experiencing manic episodes as a prelude to bipolar onset, and that's misdiagnosed as hyperactivity.

[Randi]

Thanks everyone for your input.

Scott P, you say that the meds helped you focus. From what I

[ddavis]

Yes, I think my son would have responded well to behavior therapy, but as I said above, that requires ALL the primary care-givers to do it in order to work. In other words, all the adults who spent a significant amount of time with my son during the day or week had to do the therapy. In the case of my son, that was three adults; me, his father, and his teacher. I was the only one of the three willing to do it. And I was able to keep him under control, while he was with me, but I won't lie - it was hard work. It just wasn't enough. I really needed at least one of the other two people involved to work it as well, and the one I really needed was his father. If we had worked together, I think it would have been successful. But my son is a lot stronger willed than his father, and damn smart, and it wasn't hard for him to get my ex to undermine what I was trying to do. And it didn't help that the schools weren't all that consistent about enforcing their own rules, although that didn't really get to be a problem until jr high.

My understanding at the time was that as kids with ADHD grow up, about 1/3 of them stay about the same, 1/3 get worse, and 1/3 get better. There was no way to tell which way any one kid would go; you just had to wait until they grew up. My son got a bit worse as he got older, not a lot, but some.

I'm not sure how the medication made my son feel. He was never able to describe the feelings in any way that I could understand, but he never used anything like 'zombie'. He was, however, really really clear about not liking whatever he was feeling. While he was on the medication (and he wasn't on it very long), I couldn't see any difference in his personality or energy level, or the way he played or in the number of friends. He wasn't passive, or compulsive, or repetitive, or irritable, or any of those side effects. One thing I did notice was that he treated his friends a lot better while medicated. The biggest difference I saw was in his ability to stay on task and be systematic on his schoolwork, especially math. There the difference was immediate and striking. Incredibly striking. I actually took before and after math assignments to the psychologist just to show the change. And it was a very emotional experience for me the first time I watched him do a math assignment in class while medicated. I had to leave the classroom and go out in the hall because I started to cry.

You know, I haven't really talked to anyone about this, even when I was going through it. I mean, my friends and family knew what was going on, but only in passing, and I didn't really discuss it with anyone, not like this. I had forgotten how damn hard that time was.

[ddavis]

Oh, and one other thing about adults and medication. It's only just recently that drug companies have developed medications for adults ADHD, but some self-medicate. IF they do, they tend to choose one of two drugs - caffeine or cocaine. I admit I have encouraged my son to develop a coffee habit. He developed the Mountain Dew/Red Bull habit on his own.

[Cirrus2000]

You know, I haven't really talked to anyone about this, even when I was going through it. I mean, my friends and family knew what was going on, but only in passing, and I didn't really discuss it with anyone, not like this. I had forgotten how damn hard that time was.

:bighug: You know, we need a hugging smiley on this board.

[Scott P]

Scott P, you say that the meds helped you focus. From what I’ve read, these meds affect a part of the brain, which create “connections” which mimic OCD to a large extent, giving the medicated person the ability to hyper-focus on a task at hand (even a rote or boring one). Hence, the “improvement” in academics, whether the subject matter is interesting, or stimulating. No more bouncing off of the walls, no more disobeying orders, no more willful rebellion.

I’m curious as to what you felt or how you behaved when there was no task at hand to focus on. Do you remember getting bored when you were on the medication & there wasn’t actually something that needed your attention? From what I’ve read – it seems like the MP’s (medicated person) could either focus diligently on a task, or basically focus on nothing at all with equal vigor.

Hope you don't mind my asking, but was this the case for you?

I don't remember boredom being a problem when off the medication. On the other hand keep in mind that I only took it ages 7-9 and that was a long time ago.


The biggest difference I saw was in his ability to stay on task and be systematic on his schoolwork, especially math. There the difference was immediate and striking. Incredibly striking. I actually took before and after math assignments to the psychologist just to show the change. And it was a very emotional experience for me the first time I watched him do a math assignment in class while medicated. I had to leave the classroom and go out in the hall because I started to cry.


Ditto here. When I started 3rd grade, my match skills were at a third grade level. When I left 3rd grade, they were at an 8th grade level.



How is that so many kids seem to outgrow ADHD?


I never really thought about it, but I guess if you did look at the symptoms of ADHD, I guess I do show them in one way or another.

================================================== =================================================

On another note, my brother claims that as adults we both have Asperger syndrome, but I don't know if this is related and I really don't know much about it and don't care if I have it.

The only unusual traits that I know I still have which are left over from early ages are the fact that I can't look people in the eye while speaking to them and the fact that I need to memorize things (which dates back to when I was a kid). As an example of the need to memorize things, I memorize maps and weather statistics. I started compiling and memorizing weather statistics when I was eight years old or so and I still do it. Last time I checked I was at over 8000 pages of handwritten weather data stashed around the house in bookshelves and drawers. When I drive by any town or city in the car I can quote to someone when the hottest and coldest temperature recorded in the city or town was and a whole bunch of other useless stuff. If you ever wanted to know what the low temperature in Hanksville was on January 20 1937, I could tell you. On the other hand other task are sometimes difficult to focus on.

Of course, I don't know if that kind of stuff is related to ADHD or whatever at all.

I don't care if it is a disorder or normal anyway. Memorizing stuff doesn't hurt me or anyone else, so it doesn't matter.

Not looking people in the eye has caused minor problems such as people not thinking I'm listening. Once my old boss ask me if I was listening to her and ask why I couldn't look her in the eye. I told her I was listening, repeated word for word what she told me and then tried to force myself to look in her eye. The only person whom I've trained myself to look in the eye without feeling extremely uncomfotable is my wife. I always look down when someone is talking to me unless I force myself to look in their eye. One woman once confronted me and asked why I was always checking out her breast when whe would talk to me. It wasn't true at all and I wasn't paying any attention to those (seriously). I think that's just a personality trait rather than some disorder and to me and either way it doesn't matter much to most people.

[Spooky]

I'm not sure if kids really do outgrow ADHD or if they learn how to adapt. I'm relatively certain that this adaptation has a lot to do with the brain being able to perform normally because the missing chemical has been added to the overall chemistry. Without it, the brain would continue forming without those normal chemicals.

Look....consider a disease like bipolar. Clearly a chemical imbalance that causes severe mood swings. Studies have proven that bipolar kids who are medicated as adolescents have a good chance of not being bipolar once the brain has finished forming, at 21. This means that the brain is developing around and with the medication. The medication is making the brain chemistry normal. So as the brain is growing, the conduits that are being created are normal conduits. Those normal conduits perpetuate themselves, just as abnormal ones would. Conduits become stronger and more permanent with repetition.

My son has been on Concerta since he was 6, and he's now turning 15. He's not a zombie when he's medicated. When he's medicated, he's hyper as hell, difficult to control at times, funny and happy, and getting nearly perfect grades in school. Perhaps his brain is learning how to behave appropriately because the medication has given it a chance to. See what I mean?

Researchers have exposed rats to constant stress, and found that after a certain amount of stress the rats quit producing dopamine and other chemicals that give us a sense of well being. Or else the receptors that capture those chemicals stopped working. Often, bouncing back from situational depression is easy, but long-lasting stress can effect how the brain creates or uses those chemicals. Anti-depressants can work by "reminding" the brain how to produce those chemicals again. I think ADHD meds can work the same way.

We once tried a different med for Josh, and it was awful. He really was zombie-like. That didn't mean he shouldn't have meds, it just meant he wasn't on the right one.

ADHD kids are often very intelligent, and giving their brains a chance to absorb information and work normally allows them to reach their full potential, provided those meds are given appropriately and monitored constantly.

[Randi]

My understanding at the time was that as kids with ADHD grow up, about 1/3 of them stay about the same, 1/3 get worse, and 1/3 get better. There was no way to tell which way any one kid would go; you just had to wait until they grew up. My son got a bit worse as he got older, not a lot, but some.

The fact that some people grow out of

[Spooky]

Hi, Randi. Curious about a few things...

You say you've never seen a child act as disruptively as Josh did and that his behavior is severely abnormal. But that ADHD behavior itself is normal.

[QUOTE=Randi]Josh's behavior seems extremely severe, & falls far outside the

[Randi]

Randi, your post is the "don't you dare medicate your kids!" lecture I used to give all the time, almost verbatim. I had to laugh because I remember saying the exact same things.
You say you've never seen a child act as disruptively as Josh did and that his behavior is severely abnormal. But that ADHD behavior itself is normal.

Originally Posted by Randi

Josh's behavior seems extremely severe, & falls far outside the ‘normal’ spectrum. How many of these other kids diagnosed with ‘ADHD’ stand on their head in class? Climb walls, and try to escape at every opportunity?

I’m not a teacher, but as a parent, I’ve spent a lot of time in various preschools, classrooms and I've been around many, many kids and I’ve never seen anything even remotely as disruptive as what you describe Josh doing.

Are you saying his behavior doesn't fit the ADHD guidelines and that other kids with ADHD don't behave similarly? Or that Josh is obviously ADHD since he's so far out of the "range of normal" as you put it? Or are you saying ADHD isn't a disorder at all and that Josh is just severely abnormal?

Perhaps I'm reading your post wrong?

I’m unsure if you’re reading my post wrong or not. I’m not saying 'how dare you' make decisions for your family based on your experiences. But I AM saying how dare, we as a society drug so many of our kids for behaviors that don’t seem particularly disturbing. I don’t know what Josh’s behavior fits, but I haven’t seen kids behave in as disruptive a manner as what you described.
And I don’t see the list of symptoms as described by the ‘ADHD’ guidelines as particularly upsetting. I in fact took the test and accordingly – my result was that my kids likely have ‘ADHD’. They’re grown now, but looking back – two of them would have been good candidates for medication according to those guidelines.

I’ve seen kids fidget, not pay attention, get bored, be belligerent (usually rebelling against authority figures), etc. to the degree that the ADHD guidelines suggest & I don’t see anything out of the ordinary about it. When you describe the way Josh was acting, that does seem out of the ordinary.

What I’ve seen in my kid encounters, is simply kids who didn’t fit the stereotype of ‘easy’ to deal with. That old adage ‘kids will be kids’ I guess is the way I feel about it. They're complex little human beings that have a myriad of personality traits and behaviors that define them outside of what we as a society define for them.

If I were a teacher, and I had a child in my class or even two or three who were fidgety, had a hard time paying attention, were distracted easily, etc. – I would hope to engage them in a more suitable manner to their temperament, which isn’t always an option I suppose. Maybe in a Montessori or Waldorf type school, individual temperaments might be addressed, but certainly not in the average American classroom. Factor in *all the other reasons medicating a child might seem feasible/desirable (everything I've documented in earlier posts) – and I’m sure it’s just easier/more lucrative for many involved to simply medicate the child. Behavior problems kept in check, increased academic ability (focus), happy teachers, etc.

This seems to be what’s going on with this increase in medicated kids.
If you look at the numbers it’s pretty dramatic over the last 10 years or so.

Remember, these supposed “ADHD’ kids usually have high IQ’s & might easily be labeled ‘gifted’ as well. Perhaps their method of absorbing &.or processing information is just different?
I really am aghast at what I’m reading on the Internet about this disorder, disease, illness, whatever this behavior deficit is supposed to be.

Your son sounds like he was experiencing an extreme case of behavioral problems, that fall outside of the norm is all I was saying. I have quite a hard time believing that 1 out of every 6 boys act in a similar manner, & currently according to statistics this is how many boys have this disorder, & are possible candidates for or are already on medication.

From the research I’ve done there seem to be many experts in the field of medicine, psychiatry, and science that see an ‘ADHD’ diagnosis as nonsense, or at least grossly overblown. Couple this with the fact that long term medication effects are unknown, & there is $$$ involved at every juncture, I don’t disagree with their assessment.


The expert opinion that I got was that Josh's behavior was clearly and decisively ADHD. A classic case. I've seen kids behave exactly like Josh did so I'm surprised that with the experience you've had with kids you've not seen similar behavior.[\quote]

because a drug is abused doesn't mean it's not effective for its determined use. And no, kids who aren't ADHD would not perform better if given Ritalin. They'd be acting like ADHD kids who didn't take their pill that day.

College kids who are taking it do quite well/better than students who don’t. http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/366

”The answer to this question lies in the 1 in 5 college students that admit to using this drug and not having ADHD (7). Why? Athletes have steroids, depressives have “happy-pills”, and those who wish to do it all, and do it fast, have Adderall. A person with a perfectly normal, functioning frontal cortex and dopamine levels will experience a heightened sense of motivation, focus, and concentration. Presumably this is the perfect mood to pull all-nighters, read hundreds of pages at a time, and write pages and pages of that final paper (8). “I didn't feel like I was becoming smarter or even like I was thinking more clearly. I just felt more directed, less distracted by rogue thoughts, less day-dreamy (7),” states Joshua Foer, a journalist who, after consulting many doctors, decided to try Adderall for himself. “I felt like I was clearing away underbrush that had been obscuring my true capabilities (7).” Before performing his experiment, Foer discussed his decision with psychiatrists who informed him, to his surprise, that when taken in small doses, irregularly, with or without a prescription, Adderall is most likely harmless (7). Other scientists beg to differ, and it is these accounts that are of particular interest.”



Things go wrong with the human body and the chemicals of the brain. That doesn't necessarily mean "mental illness." I wouldn't consider ADHD a mental illness any more than I'd consider a type 1 diabetic mentally ill. It's a lack of a chemical that can be reintroduced into the system, normalizing the body. If it were simply a pharmaceutical daydream, then why would the medication work? And by "work" I don't mean that I medicated my kid into zombie-hood so he'd conform to the family and classroom and save myself a ton of time with parenting...

Of course things go wrong, and I’ve also stated this in my earlier posts. But I don’t believe for a second that something is going wrong with 1 out of every 6 boys! There, I said it again!
At my current level of understanding, I wouldn’t consider most ‘ADHD’ diagnoses anything other than normal childhood developmental behavior being dealt with in the most convenient/lucrative for the pharma industry manner possible.
I also stated that I have not walked in anyone else’s shoes. Could be, if I was dealing with a child who acted more severely disruptive, I might feel differently.....

And lastly, I didn't post my original query to come down on anyone who's used these drugs, and/or their reasons for doing so. I was looking for first hand information from 'real' people as well as conducting my research on the subject.

[blueeyes]

Can I just say I appreciate this thread. I have nothing to add except I am struggling with my son at this time and it is just nice to know I am not the only one. I know that logicaly but it is just nice to hear how others have dealth with their parenting issues. Maybe I should go find me a parenting forum.

[Randi]

Can I just say I appreciate this thread. I have nothing to add except I am struggling with my son at this time and it is just nice to know I am not the only one. I know that logicaly but it is just nice to hear how others have dealth with their parenting issues. Maybe I should go find me a parenting forum.

Great! It's been really interesting for me too. You're definitely not alone Chere! Considering your move, I'll share with you that I had the worst times EVER with my kids (mostly the boy) when changes like that occurred. As resilient and adaptable as kids are, they sometimes crumble in the face of change. Especially major ones, like moving to a new town, and then there's the b/f thing too. All these new and exciting lifestyle changes might really be throwing him for a loop.

It's hard as an adult to try and to see things from a child's pov, but I think it's really important to try. Most of us (me included) want to assure them that everything is going to be Ok, and provide them with insights on how we see things (the reality of the situation as we see it) but I've found that trying to understand (& sympathize) with the way they see things is more important sometimes. Even showing your own fear - "I'm scared too and I don't know how I will like this new town, but I'm hopeful". etc." If he's fearful & he sees that you're fearful too (in your own way) it makes him feel not so alone. Often times we only present the positive, and it doesn't produce the results we're looking for. Know what I mean?

I found too that by finding ways to give them at least a 'little' power over their own lives - even at a young age, really works wonders.

My son was actually so bad at times, I'm surprised (knowing what I now know) that no one recommended meds. He had severe impulse control problems. When he was three years old he was suspended from pre-school for knocking a kid down, sitting on his chest, choking him with one hand while trying to pour sand down his throat with the other.
I was in shock when I got that call! This happened shortly after we moved...

That's just one thing in a list of many - hopefully, you're not dealing with anything that bad! :/

How old is your son?
BTW - my son is going on 23 and he's turned out to be a fine young man, about to graduate with a BS in Linguistics. :mrgreen:
He didn't grow up & go to prison or anything like that...

[blueeyes]

He is 14 and definitely has some anger issues and currently is failing out of school (8th grade). He has ZERO motivation for doing homework and if by some chance he does do the work he doesn't turn it in. Last term I stayed on top of him and he actually pulled off good grades with the exception of one class... however life at home with him was HELL! He actually threw a pencil at me and hit me in the forehead. That did not go over well with me. He is taller than me now and he had in his head for a split minute that somehow that gave him and advantage over me. So I decided being a single parent it was time for help and we have been seeing a counselor for several weeks now. Counselor told me to back off of his homework; good news is tension at home is fairly nonexistent, bad news is he is failing out of every class this semester. History he has done 6% of the required work. I don’t understand him! Arghhhhhh!!! He is a good kid, but there are a few things that just are a little bit off in my opinion. Both of my kids have had a lot to deal with concerning life. Divorce, suicide and single parenting. For the most part I think they do good… but Spencer I don’t think has ever really dealt with the suicide of his father. Your right this move and new bf probably are giving him some anxiety he has become a bit clingy since the first of the year. He is completely on board with moving. He actually gets very irritated with me when I express my fear of the move.




[LEFT][FONT=Verdana]As a baby if we didn’t keep him on a strict schedule we paid for it that night! He would scream for hours… he wasn’t awake.. not in the sense that you would think… nothing would console him… we just did what we could until he would snap out of it. When he did the crying would just stop and he would settle down and go back to bed. Night Terrors… that is what the pediatrician called it. Grew out of that about 3

[Randi]

He is 14 and definitely has some anger issues and currently is failing out of school (8th grade). He has ZERO motivation for doing homework and if by some chance he does do the work he doesn't turn it in. Last term I stayed on top of him and he actually pulled off good grades with the exception of one class... however life at home with him was HELL! He actually threw a pencil at me and hit me in the forehead. That did not go over well with me. He is taller than me now and he had in his head for a split minute that somehow that gave him and advantage over me. So I decided being a single parent it was time for help and we have been seeing a counselor for several weeks now. Counselor told me to back off of his homework; good news is tension at home is fairly nonexistent, bad news is he is failing out of every class this semester. History he has done 6% of the required work. I don’t understand him! Arghhhhhh!!!

Has Spencer always done bad in school or has he gotten worse since middle school? The reason I ask is that all three of mine kind of lost motivation around 8th grade and started doing worse than ever. I think they simply got burned out with all the homework. I was never that much of a stickler for grades as long as they were passing – although a ‘D’ grade made me unhappy. F on the other hand meant they’d have to take the class over again, and/or not make it to the next grade & I made it clear to them that this would happen & they’d have to live with that consequence if that happened. But I agree with your counselor to back off the homework. At this age kids are turning into young adults and taking control of their own lives, and it’s wise for parents to guide them as best they can, but also to start relinquishing control. They will learn, adapt and deal with their own mistakes. They have to as it's part of the growth process. All you can do sometimes is tell them what you know, guide them the best you can, but let them go their own course. I think it's the hardest part ever about parenting! They're on their own schedule as far as getting their sh*t together - and it doesn't always coincide with what we'd like to see. ALWAY's keep the door open for discussion, but don't force your opinions/advice on him...make your thoughts known and let him do the rest.
It really worked for us & that's my advice to all parents. I've seen too many kids rebel (especially teens) when they're being forced to conform & when they feel like they're not being respected. Respect is a two way street & many parents demand it without giving it themselves. Remember too, this is the time when they're becoming young adults - it's a long drawn out process with ups & downs for them.
At some point (hopefully you'll magically know when) you'll need to start a transition from the parent/child relationship to a peer/peer one. Many parents miss this opportunity. If you seize it however, and you respect this stage in his life, it will afford you a lot of respect in return. It's really a neat stage of development, but one that many people are unaware of.


He is a good kid, but there are a few things that just are a little bit off in my opinion. Both of my kids have had a lot to deal with concerning life. Divorce, suicide and single parenting. For the most part I think they do good… but Spencer I don’t think has ever really dealt with the suicide of his father. Your right this move and new bf probably are giving him some anxiety he has become a bit clingy since the first of the year. He is completely on board with moving. He actually gets very irritated with me when I express my fear of the move.

Did you guys ever go to family counseling? We never did, but sometimes that kind of stuff helps I would guess. Sounds like you’ve all been through a great deal of trauma, and all sorts of defense mechanisms might come into play when dealing with that kind of uncertainty & heartbreak. Maybe some of Spencer’s behavior has to with whatever coping- mechanisms he’s put into place? But I wouldn’t be overly concerned with mild OCD type of behavior. My son still exhibits some characteristics I think, like the way he alphabetizes his CD’s, etc. & it’s part of his personality.

[quote]As a baby if we didn’t keep him on a strict schedule we paid for it that night! He would scream for hours… he wasn’t awake.. not in the sense that you would think… nothing would console him… we just did what we could until he would snap out of it. When he did the crying would just stop and he would settle down and go back to bed. Night Terrors… that is what the pediatrician called it. Grew out of that about 3

[blueeyes]

Yes it helps. Sadly, Spencer will not be with me in Zion... deal was C's or better or no Zion. Currently he has all F's but one C and one B. Sarah will be with me. I am looking forward to hanging out with everyone.



Has Spencer always done bad in school or has he gotten worse since middle school?




Before I went back to school to get my degree he did well because I was there to work with him every night. My going back to school made it very hard for me to stay on top of his school work. He did well in Elementary but not stellar. Since he started Junior High his grades have been horrible with the exception of last term when I stayed on top of him (by the way this was at his request). This term he has just quit! I know 8th is one of the worst for kids. So I am hoping that by next year a little maturity might (praying) kick in. I did read an interesting article in Time magazine yesterday about monetary bribes for school work and grades. I did offer a bribe this year but it was completely in effective after reading the article I think I am going to try a new approach next year. I plan on doing a little more research on this to get my plan laid out and then present it to him. He is usually very motivated by money and was very excited over my offer at the beginning of the year, but never even came close except the semester I helped him and even then he wouldn’t turn in work for the one class that he received a D in. Basically instead of rewarding him for grades, it will reward him for doing the work. Maybe he only gets a D but instead of doing 6% of the required work (ONE assignment) in the class he turns in nearly all the assignments.




Did you guys ever go to family counseling?



Yes. We went for a couple months. The guy told me I was doing everything to textbook and that the kids were doing extremely well considering. He did warn me that I would run into issues later as the went through puberty and that I would probably need to go back for counseling at that time. Which is why I have. :nod: I have been waiting... knowing this was coming.




I’m happy he outgrew that. It sounds scary! For him & you! : /

Harmless for him. His pedatrician gave me a book to read. AWESOME book. Anyway Night Terrrors are actually quiet common and other than distressing the parents they are harmless to the child. They don't even remember them. When they snap out of it... the best thing to do was to make no comment about it just put the kid back to bed and go on with it. It is only an issue if they don't out grow them. Imagine a 13 year old pitching a fit in the middle of the night unaware!

I think a large part of my problem is I am terrified that he will be bi-polar like his father, and several other family members (Dad's side) that are as well. The family has lost two boys (Tyler my ex and his cousin) now to suicide and that frightens me more than anything. We talk openly about it, but if there is one thing I have learned... if a person gets it in their head to end their life it is one hell of a long road to talk them out of it.

When you have other people point out the things they see wrong with your child and they start having problems in school it makes one nervous. I take comfort in hearing how other parents struggled and their children are now funcitioning adults. I don't care if he is a star student or a great athlete my simple goal is a child who is self motivated and can support themselves as an adult and raise a happy family of there own. I don't want to be supporting a 40 year old kid who lives in my basement because they wouldn't grow up!