Subway / Buckskin conditions

[thecanyonwalker]

Hey,

I got a group of guys driving down from Calgary for the Subway next week - has anyone been through recently?

Any insight into conditions is greatly appreciated!

[trackrunner]

read a TR for a bottom up hike about a week ago. high water flow conditions right now. if coming from the top down you will need wetsuits and real "class c" skills to desend.

[ratagonia]

The snowmelt basin for the Subway is fairly small, so the water level changes rapidly. That said, it all has got to flow through keyhole falls, with you on rappel. And there might be logs there. I've got some friends going through this Saturday, will try to post a report from them.

Tom :moses:

[ststephen]

Hope it lessens in time for Family Fest...

[oldno7]

Small enough drainage for sure, the problem is that the upper reaches of said drainage are 7300' +. This area is still getting accumulations of snow. It has also been a relatively cool spring. The serious runoff has not yet begun. If we get rapid heating in May, the subway might be carving out a deeper "subway" section. This has been a classic set up for Southern Utah flooding so far. Cool Spring with continued snow accumulation, followed by a hotter than normal May=FLOOD. If May stays cool and we "gradually" warm up, all could be good.

[Bo_Beck]

Small enough drainage for sure, the problem is that the upper reaches of said drainage are 7300' +. This area is still getting accumulations of snow. It has also been a relatively cool spring. The serious runoff has not yet begun. If we get rapid heating in May, the subway might be carving out a deeper "subway" section. This has been a classic set up for Southern Utah flooding so far. Cool Spring with continued snow accumulation, followed by a hotter than normal May=FLOOD. If May stays cool and we "gradually" warm up, all could be good.

You are "DEAD-ON" Kurt! Might check these forecasts for "Springdale" and realize that higher ground will follow suit albeit a few degrees cooler.

http://www.accuweather.com/us/ut/springdale/84767/forecast-details.asp

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?CityName=Springdale&state=UT&site=SLC&textField1=37.1889&textField2=-112.998&e=0

[John Peterson]

Went top-down this past Sunday, the 25th. The permit desk said there may still be snowpack on the road into the trailhead and on the first mile before the slickrock descent, but this wasn't the case. The road was clear and the trail was mostly dry.

The permit desk also seemed concerned that we were going without drysuits, but the wetsuit was plenty, and a drysuit would have been overkill, I think. The water was a little faster and higher, and probably in the 40's, but nothing that complicated the hike too much. The rap right above the bowling ball was the sportiest given the volume and temperature of the water right there, and a quick release is crucial given the current right there. The keyhole rap had well-placed log going up to it, so we just rigged a rope for a handline and walked off the log.

The last few miles of the exit were slow-going as usual. Saw a few bottom-up hikers but no other top-downs that day.

[Iceaxe]

Awesome first post. :2thumbs:

Welcome to Bogley.... :nod:

Any pictures of the bowling ball or keyhole?

[John Peterson]

I didn't get too many photos taken that day, and none of bowling ball corridor. I need a better setup for my camera dry case. Regardless, here's the keyhole with the log positioned as shown. It was sturdy but I don't know how much longer it will stay there if the flow increases.

http://i40.tinypic.com/11tsqd4.jpg

[Cirrus2000]

:2thumbs: Cool! Welcome to Bogley!

[trackrunner]

Thanks for the TR and conditions. I hope you got pics of the Red Falls. So much better looking with high flow IMHO.

FYI for those going in high flow. in my hi flow epic for Keyhole falls rap we down-climbed into the arch then rapped through the arch safely. If the flow is too strong at the bowling ball corridor you can skip this on the shelf canyon left LDC and rap from a tree that will put you out of the corridor strong flow. Probably best to scout the corridor first in high strong flow before committing to the rap.

[jman]

wait a sec...so the falls with the arch/more like a window (the above pictures) IS Keyhole Falls? I thought the drop into the chokestone swim (there was 2 back in 2003 or 2004) was Keyhole falls. Plus, I thought that's what the topo reads... Perhaps I need to review the USGS map and figure it out.

Most people I've seen will put both arms around the window (the above picture) and dangle their feet, and then drop the 3+ feet on the sand bar, thus saving them a rappel (or high jump). But if you are inexperienced (or smart I suppose) don't do the last sentence. heh

John Peterson,
Those sound like the exact same conditions that I had when I went one time in early March of 2007. Lots of snow melt and streams coming down Russell Gulch. The rangers said there would be ice and lots of snow...nope....none! We did see ice, but only near the top at the entrance of the Subway, and it was in the shadows. We were expecting class C conditions. Nope. It looked just like it does in late summer conditions. 1st and 2nd pools were extra cold, but once you get to the famous log, the water heated up and it felt "normal" - we weren't even cold at all. We played in the Subway Shower room and went down the red-rock slide probably 5+ times, with only 3mm wetsuits on. Anyways, thanks for the conditions update!



Subway is the Classic canyon. I NEVER get tired talking about it and I and love it more and more every time I go (9 times and counting since 2003). Especially bringing noobs and just watching their faces thinking "ahh...this is just a simple hike with simple river walking and swimming" haha. Nope. I do wish I can experience the Subway in full force like trackrunner did in Class C conditions. That would be great! Speaking of which, do you still have pics online of that trip trackrunner? I wanna show my friend those.

[ratagonia]

wait a sec...so the falls with the arch/more like a window (the above pictures) IS Keyhole Falls? I thought the drop into the chokestone swim (there was 2 back in 2003 or 2004) was Keyhole falls. Plus, I thought that's what the topo reads... Perhaps I need to review the USGS map and figure it out.

Most people I've seen will put both arms around the window (the above picture) and dangle their feet, and then drop the 3+ feet on the sand bar, thus saving them a rappel (or high jump). But if you are inexperienced (or smart I suppose) don't do the last sentence. heh


There's nothing on the Topo Map. THE source for names would be the Green Book (Brereton and Dunaway), and YES, The Green Book calls that Keyhole Falls, you know, with the keyhole arch.

People CAN and DO descend this drop as stated - jump, grab, swing and drop. I've done that twice, and sprained my ankle twice (not badly). The landing is into frothy water maybe knee deep, and when I have done it, lots of round boulders. Very bad landing. None for me (anymore), thanks.

Without the log there, at this water level, looks like you get a full face shot. Coooooooold. There's some treacherous holes in the canyon floor just past the landing, hidden by the froth.

Caveat canonero!

Tom :moses:

[trackrunner]

Speaking of which, do you still have pics online of that trip trackrunner? I wanna show my friend those.

look under the trip report index sticky for April 2008 trip report. only a few pics on the second page.

[UtahAdventureGuide]

Got a permit for this Saturday but not sure if i'll be able to use it now. Kinda hoping there would be more water right now, Just not as fun unless it looks like this:

33632

[ratagonia]

Got a permit for this Saturday but not sure if i'll be able to use it now. Kinda hoping there would be more water right now, Just not as fun unless it looks like this:

33632

Hope your wife has Life Insurance. Whitewater with current and no helmet = "hope your wife has health insurance".

:moses:

[ratagonia]

Hey,

I got a group of guys driving down from Calgary for the Subway next week - has anyone been through recently? Any insight into conditions is greatly appreciated!

Had a strong party turn back on the top-down Subway yesterday 5/6/2010 due to high water. They convinced a weak party to also turn back, or Bo would have gotten some more sports action.

Tom :moses:

[UtahAdventureGuide]

Got a helmet this year and no wife so I think i'm good :). Tom, we've got a spot open if you want to join us. I talked to the backcountry desk this morning and she said about 2/3 of the people turn around at keyhole falls.

[ratagonia]

Got a helmet this year and no wife so I think i'm good :). Tom, we've got a spot open if you want to join us. I talked to the backcountry desk this morning and she said about 2/3 of the people turn around at keyhole falls.

Interesting... I mean the people going through thing, not the you being single thing... :eek2:

When you going? Tom :moses:

[UtahAdventureGuide]

we're driving down tonight at 4 so should be there before 10. problem is we need to stop by and get the permit tomorrow 7:00 am. we want to get an early start.

[ratagonia]

we're driving down tonight at 4 so should be there before 10. problem is we need to stop by and get the permit tomorrow 7:00 am. we want to get an early start.

I feel your pain... I am previously commited twice for Saturday.

T

[Ryebrye]

Your welcome to come tom. We have spent about five years thinking up ways to safely get through keyhole if the flow is high. We all have helmets now too :)

if the flow is high, the subway is the worlds best water park :)

[moab mark]

I don't know, floating from Orderville to the walkway on your back pack is pretty awes. Make sure you post a TR.:cool2:

[Ryebrye]

Got done. Flow is high, probably 60% of 2005 and double or triple a normal year at this time. I will post a tr later.

[thecanyonwalker]

thanks for all the awesome input - wasn't able to check this prior to our departure date - we did the route may 4, We checked in with the backcountry desk and they assured us the route was "do-able" but likely higher water flow and very cold. We did have wetsuits, helmets neoprene socks and some had gloves - we definitely found the rappel positions challenging - the water flow made it difficult for a bunch of northern prairie boys to feel very confident - one of our party had a minor epic catching his foot in a rock crevasse on the first rope descent - the keyhole falls had me personally quite spooked as we couldn't tell what was going on around the log jam nor how deep or turbulent the pool below was. Things worked out well though - definitely a solid adventure at our upper limit - I am really curious how much higher that canyon can be descended by moderately competent parties (we climb and pursue a variety of outdoor sports and def had a challenge)

thanks again to everyone on the board - we did buckskin paria the next day and it had some muddy holes but overall was dry and pleasant -

we love Utah and can't wait to return!

[Iceaxe]

:worthless:

[The Good Cop]

Hey, I took 2 noobies down the Russell start plus Subway wearing ZAC drysuits & we were happy to have them on. Solid flow & entertaining but not dangerous flowing water all the way through Russell. Heavier flow in Subway of course, the chockstone rap anchor was nice since I wasn't going to let my noobies get away without swimming but I sure didn't want to downclimb it with the flow. Keyhole scared me at first glance, about 6-12" deep whitewater over the boulders leading to the anchors. As it turned out upon my timid testing, footing was quite secure & I stepped out to the anchor & we did the keyhole rap and had a fine venture the rest of the way.

There was still a bit of snow on the hike in but not a great deal. I'm not sure what that implies as days go by & things warm up, but that's the way it was 7 days ago, enjoy!

Wayne

[smithd557]

Did Subway from Top Down on May 14, 2010, everything is passable. Water flow at the peak was about 800 CFM, dropped to 350 CFM when we did it. Still could not go down Keyhole falls with a web ladder, just used the log down the middle, or just drop down through the Keyhole.

[Ryebrye]

Was there much snow on the approach still? Im not entirely convinced of how strong the correlation between the subway flow and the north fork flow (but it is all we have for hard data)

[smithd557]

Saw one small patch in the meadow on top before you get to the slick rock. At the parking lot, we saw some on the rock mountain, not much. BTW I graduated from SF High. I believe most of all the water comes from Cedar Mountain, so everything would depend on the conditions there.

[jpratt11]

Went top-down this past Sunday, the 25th. The permit desk said there may still be snowpack on the road into the trailhead and on the first mile before the slickrock descent, but this wasn't the case. The road was clear and the trail was mostly dry.

The permit desk also seemed concerned that we were going without drysuits, but the wetsuit was plenty, and a drysuit would have been overkill, I think. The water was a little faster and higher, and probably in the 40's, but nothing that complicated the hike too much. The rap right above the bowling ball was the sportiest given the volume and temperature of the water right there, and a quick release is crucial given the current right there. The keyhole rap had well-placed log going up to it, so we just rigged a rope for a handline and walked off the log.

The last few miles of the exit were slow-going as usual. Saw a few bottom-up hikers but no other top-downs that day.

A group of friends and I went 5/15/10 and no one had wetsuits and we ended up okay. I've done it many times so I knew what I was getting into. The only issue was my buddies wife wore all cotton, not a swimsuit, and she ended up getting too cold for a bit. We got her in a dry sweatshirt though when she started to complain and it all worked out. I thought Keyhole looks crazy but was really easy when it actually came down to getting down it. I had a hand line availiable, but just ended up walking down the log in the your photo and used the right wall for balance. This was the first time I've been in the canyon with that much water and I would love to do it again with that much water. I might leave the girlfriend behind next time, she was scared for her life, but there was never any real danger.