Essential equipment for Mystery Canyon

[sarahlizzy]

Everyone knows about the ropes, helmets, carabiners, etc.. However, I think there's some essential equipment that's often overlooked for an intrepid group of canyoneers hoping to descend Zion's Mystery Canyon:


Prescription sleeping pills
Folding camp chair
eBook reader with backlight, or paperback and flashlight.
iPod
Thermos containing caffeinated beverage
Sense of resignation
Friends willing to do shifts
Sense of humour for when you get that, "We are sorry Sarah, but you were not selected in the lottery for the Mystery Canyon Resource Area in Zion National Park." email.

Anything I missed?

2am - I'll be there from 2am, mark my words.

:angryfire: muttering and trying to look on the bright side :angryfire:

[shagdeuce]

I hear you. How ignorant was I waiting for the online system to open up Mystery to June reservations this morning? It came up 99% percent red.

[Scott Card]

Everyone knows about the ropes, helmets, carabiners, etc.. However, I think there's some essential equipment that's often overlooked for an intrepid group of canyoneers hoping to descend Zion's Mystery Canyon:


Prescription sleeping pills
Folding camp chair
eBook reader with backlight, or paperback and flashlight.
iPod
Thermos containing caffeinated beverage
Sense of resignation
Friends willing to do shifts
Sense of humour for when you get that, "We are sorry Sarah, but you were not selected in the lottery for the Mystery Canyon Resource Area in Zion National Park." email.
Anything I missed?

2am - I'll be there from 2am, mark my words.

:angryfire: muttering and trying to look on the bright side :angryfire:

This is one of the finest posts of the year. Winter kinda tempers my anger at the permit system. I appreciated the list.:haha: I have a history with Zion Park and "the System" :angryfire: We all feel your pain.

[Pubalz]

I hear you. How ignorant was I waiting for the online system to open up Mystery to June reservations this morning? It came up 99% percent red.

I know what you mean, i did the same thing this morning :eek:

[jman]

do you guys all have zion express permits? Getting one of those saves some time and allows you to print your permits. anywho, in the end, It would be great if Zion would increase their permit allowance for canyons....if only......:cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry 1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1: :cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::c ry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry 1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1: :cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::c ry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry 1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1: :cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::c ry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1::cry 1::cry1:

[ratagonia]

Everyone knows about the ropes, helmets, carabiners, etc.. However, I think there's some essential equipment that's often overlooked for an intrepid group of canyoneers hoping to descend Zion's Mystery Canyon:


Prescription sleeping pills
Folding camp chair
eBook reader with backlight, or paperback and flashlight.
iPod
Thermos containing caffeinated beverage
Sense of resignation
Friends willing to do shifts
Sense of humour for when you get that, "We are sorry Sarah, but you were not selected in the lottery for the Mystery Canyon Resource Area in Zion National Park." email.

Anything I missed?

2am - I'll be there from 2am, mark my words.

:angryfire: muttering and trying to look on the bright side :angryfire:

ANY comforts that are akin to 'camping' are prohibited at the permit window. Folding camp chairs - nope, gotta sit on the cold rock wall. no sleeping bags allowed.

Sorry...

Tom :moses:

[Pubalz]

:nod: Ya i have the Zion express premits its the way to go

[bruce from bryce]

when did they stop letting you use chairs?

[ratagonia]

when did they stop letting you use chairs?

Any items of comfort make it "camping", which is illegal in that location.

C'mon Bruce, you worked for em. you know how they work...

Tom :moses:

[Scott Card]

Any items of comfort make it "camping", which is illegal in that location.

C'mon Bruce, you worked for em. you know how they work...

Tom :moses:

I wonder if you rolled up in a borrowed wheel chair if they would give you any grief? Hmmmmm.....:haha: Stupid system...:facepalm::wallbash:

[UtahAdventureGuide]

Sense of humour for when you get that, "We are sorry Sarah, but you were not selected in the lottery for the Mystery Canyon Resource Area in Zion National Park." email.


Hey, I got that same email, followed by one that said "We are sorry Chris, but you were not selected in the lottery for the The Subway Resource Area in Zion National Park.

[Iceaxe]

The worst thing about Mystery is that's a tough sucker to poach... most the other noobie friendly trade routes are easy. :nod:

Not that a goodie two shoes like me would ever do such a thing.... just sayin' :fitz:

[sarahlizzy]

Hey, I got that same email, followed by one that said "We are sorry Chris, but you were not selected in the lottery for the The Subway Resource Area in Zion National Park.

Ow. Your pain is double mine :-(

So, that long dark wait outside the window - how about you bring the chips and I'll bring the dips?

[shaggy125]

This is why it took me like 3 years to finally do Mystery, and why I'll probably never do it again. It's also why I've never been to Coyote Buttes.

[thedesertnomad]

I have spent more time in line than anyone else I know and I usually get there 1st in line. I have never had an issue with ranger cops, but though I don't bring a chair, sleeping bag, or other "comforts", I do bring a laptop and watch a movie. I have met a bunch of people in line and had great conversations as well. I don't find it to be quite as bad as most folks.

[canyoncaver]

This is why it took me like 3 years to finally do Mystery, and why I'll probably never do it again. It's also why I've never been to Coyote Buttes.

Like it or not, this is one reason the permits exist. It reduces the number of visitors that can impact the resource.

Like thedesertnomad, I have never had trouble getting a permit without reservations. It just might not be the specific one I wanted, on the specific day I wanted! Easy for me to say, since I live in Utah. I figure if I can't do Mystery this trip to Zion, I'll just hit it next time. Or go to Spry, or Behunin, or any one of the other fantastic canyons there.

I can see how this is a bigger frustration for those of you out of state. You might only get to Zion once a year, so you want to be able to plan on Mystery.

[Scott Card]

Like it or not, this is one reason the permits exist. It reduces the number of visitors that can impact the resource. (Caveat: The below rant is not aimed at canyoncaver at all, his above comment just hit a sore spot with me, Zion Park and the government in general)

I have always tried to wrap my head around this concept. What can I possibly do that a flash flood doesn't undo or "damage" worse? I went into Mystery, down the death slope a couple of years ago and there was a large sluff-off or land slide, which completely wiped out part of the "human impact" trail that had been created. We were one of the first groups through that year and it was a mess of debris. It was quite pretty and nice in that section before the slide.

I do realize that trails are impactful. But don't trails lessen human impact? How does one enjoy the park if not on a trail? I must say it is pretty hard to get into Mystery but for the trial. I know this. I unintentionally tried a different route in my first time into Mystery when I didn't know where the trial was (back in the good old days before permit limits.) When we talk about impact, we need to remember that we are talking about a National Park with millions of visitors per year. If we stay on trial and in the water course, I think the human impact in slot canyons, including Mystery, is minimal at best.

Funny thing about Mystery in particular, I have offered man power to build and shore up the trail into Mystery in an effort to lessen impact and make the descent into Mystery a little nicer. Nope, no can do, was the response. We were not trained professionals. Why you need studies, engineering, people standing around scratching their chins, yada yada. I have been a part of many trail projects but I guess we now need a five year study, thousands of dollars, and tax payer paid trained professionals to swing a pick, dig some dirt, haul some timbers, and drive some rebar in order to put in a trail. Not. I remember one trail project (eagle project) that I was on two years ago in Mapleton Canyon. The forest service wouldn't let us use a drill to drill holes through the timbers to insert the rebar. Only they could use it. Only they could use the chain saw (which was wimpy and had mechanical problems) to cut the timbers to length. I turned to two of the other leaders, both contractors, and we just laughed in disbelief. One of the contractors who builds schools for the government just said, "Scott, don't try to understand it. You never will. Don't try to be efficient, it won't happen." So when the rangers weren't watching, we grabbed their tools and finished double the trail section that they had completed the week before. They came back from what I guess was a government required break, saw what we had done and what we were doing and just let us finish a very long section of bike/hiking trail that we had started. No one injured, everyone working together rather than standing, watching and waiting for a ranger drill a hole or cut a timber. Back to Mystery, it is sad when you have a bunch of man power ready, willing and able to help and the government won't let you. (And don't give me this "Its the lawyers fault" crap.)

Too many pet peeves with Mystery and government inefficiency so I will stop now.

[Iceaxe]

Standing in line sucks.... if ZNP is going to continue this current permit system this is what I'd like to see.... at 6:45 am a ranger walks out and lets everyone in line draw a number from a hat.... number 1 moves to the front of the line, 2, 3, 4..... that would completely eliminate the crazy 3:00 am line forming.... as a bonus well rested and less stressed canyoneers are safer canyoneers....

[trackrunner]

Standing in line sucks.... if ZNP is going to continue this current permit system this is what I'd like to see.... at 6:45 am a ranger walks out and lets everyone in line draw a number from a hat.... number 1 moves to the front of the line, 2, 3, 4..... that would completely eliminate the crazy 3:00 am line forming.... as a bonus well rested and less stressed canyoneers are safer canyoneers....

Last few times I've been there line started at midnight. poor people showing up at 3 hoping to get a Subway permit.

Edit: Agree a number draw is a good idea. But the problem is it would never work. Why? Because it makes too much sense and the permit system is designed not to make sense.

[canyoncaver]

Standing in line sucks.... if ZNP is going to continue this current permit system this is what I'd like to see.... at 6:45 am a ranger walks out and lets everyone in line draw a number from a hat.... number 1 moves to the front of the line, 2, 3, 4..... that would completely eliminate the crazy 3:00 am line forming.... as a bonus well rested and less stressed canyoneers are safer canyoneers....

Now THAT sounds like a good idea.

I wouldn't stand in line at 3:00am for any canyon! I can't believe people actually do that.

[ratagonia]

Now THAT sounds like a good idea.

I wouldn't stand in line at 3:00am for any canyon! I can't believe people actually do that.

Your loss. Of course, you shouldn't need to.

We have a new place for complaints about Zion National Park and the permit system:

Representative Jim Matheson
321 North Mall Dr., #E101B
St. George, UT 84790

with a copy to Superintendent, Zion NP, Springdale UT 84767

You will need to provide quite a bit more context, and be quite a bit more polite.

here's a way to start:

I am writing to you today because of a difficult situation in Zion National Park.

Etc. etc.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

Your loss. Of course, you shouldn't need to.

We have a new place for complaints about Zion National Park and the permit system:

Representative Jim Matheson
321 North Mall Dr., #E101B
St. George, UT 84790

with a copy to Superintendent, Zion NP, Springdale UT 84767

You will need to provide quite a bit more context, and be quite a bit more polite.

here's a way to start:

I am writing to you today because of a difficult situation in Zion National Park.

Etc. etc.

Tom

I like the new direction.... because it's obvious the old direction wasn't working. :2thumbs:

[bruce from bryce]

Sorry Tom but the last three (3) times I was in line I had my chair, stove to heat water, coffee cup, bagel with cream cheese & jelly, Tom's Zion Canyoneering and my headlamp. No one said anything to me or the others that had similiar items. Could it be that my being a former employee influenced their decision not to address the subject to anyone? If so I guess that is favoritism which I will always accept since it helps the group in attendance on that day at least.

[ratagonia]

Sorry Tom but the last three (3) times I was in line I had my chair, stove to heat water, coffee cup, bagel with cream cheese & jelly, Tom's Zion Canyoneering and my headlamp. No one said anything to me or the others that had similiar items. Could it be that my being a former employee influenced their decision not to address the subject to anyone? If so I guess that is favoritism which I will always accept since it helps the group in attendance on that day at least.

They came down hard on people sometime last summer. Maybe they decided it was "inappropriate", and have relaxed somewhat. Let me make a different suggestion: take whatever comforts work for you, and if someone comes by and tells you you can't have them, then promptly take them back to the car. As I remember, said "down hards" snuck the stuff back and were confronted again 15 minutes later. The making up names probably did not help either...

Tom

[sarahlizzy]

Now THAT sounds like a good idea.

I wouldn't stand in line at 3:00am for any canyon! I can't believe people actually do that.

I'm coming from the other side of the Atlantic. I get 1 1/2 weeks per year in Zion, and I really want to do Mystery. I'll wait out all night if I need to.

[Ryebrye]

It's been a while, but in my humble opinion... Mystery isn't really worth the hassle. Especially since I've heard that sand filled in that one pool, so it's basically got a few cool areas and one really cool last rappel where you get to be the star in a lot of people's vacation photos and then answer questions about "How did you get the ropes up there?"

For Mystery - since it's OBVIOUS that you aren't going to get the walk-on permits... they should just auction off the allotment they had for "walk-ons" N days before the date you want that permit. Given a choice between a lottery and an auction, I'd pick the auction because at least when I don't win I don't have to pay anything... and they could take all that auction money and put it into making a new HD version of the "how to poo - zion style" video to make people watch in a non-stop loop while they wait for other canyons permits.

My 2 cents - If I had a choice between Imlay sneak & peak and Mystery - I'd pick the sneak and peak almost every time. (Both take the same amount of effort - but at least with imlay the effort is exerted in the canyon unlike Mystery where all that energy is exerted just so you can get a permit)

[ratagonia]

It's been a while, but in my humble opinion... Mystery isn't really worth the hassle. Especially since I've heard that sand filled in that one pool, so it's basically got a few cool areas and one really cool last rappel where you get to be the star in a lot of people's vacation photos and then answer questions about "How did you get the ropes up there?"

For Mystery - since it's OBVIOUS that you aren't going to get the walk-on permits... they should just auction off the allotment they had for "walk-ons" N days before the date you want that permit. Given a choice between a lottery and an auction, I'd pick the auction because at least when I don't win I don't have to pay anything... and they could take all that auction money and put it into making a new HD version of the "how to poo - zion style" video to make people watch in a non-stop loop while they wait for other canyons permits.

My 2 cents - If I had a choice between Imlay sneak & peak and Mystery - I'd pick the sneak and peak almost every time. (Both take the same amount of effort - but at least with imlay the effort is exerted in the canyon unlike Mystery where all that energy is exerted just so you can get a permit)

Talk about a PARTY POOPER!!! Sarah - stick your fingers in your ears, yell "wa wa wa wa wa". He will go away.

Mystery is a GREAT canyon. Imlay is a GREAT canyon. Skill level required somewhat higher. Being less cynical than Ryebrye, I guess I like both, a lot!

"Sneak and Peak" - where's the peak? Ryebrye - are you one of the many Utahns proud of not being able to spell? I know there's a lot of em out there, kinda a retro-hick anti-intellectual cool. The spelling on that would be "Sneak and Peek" - as in peer in - get it? Yeah yeah I know, Tom shouldn't be so upset about waht peopel call dem canyons down in Zions - he's just one a dem Eastern Envirenmental Extreeeemist Elitest types...

(that's me!) :moses:

[Cirrus2000]

"Oh my heck, it has everything." Still one of my favourite quotes in The Book. Don and I kept saying that all through the canyon.

I loved Mystery. I did manage to get a reservation for May 23 - too bad it will still probably be closed for high flow in the Narrows. :cry1:

Of course, I may be wrong, and I can drag the kids - and three others - through it! :2thumbs:

[sarahlizzy]

Talk about a PARTY POOPER!!! Sarah - stick your fingers in your ears, yell "wa wa wa wa wa". He will go away.


Wa wa wa wa wa! :haha:

Last year, despite some, um, problems with the weather and a little incipient flash flood in the Virgin, Mystery was the highlight of my trip, and one of the most awesome things I've ever done! Absolutely definitely have to do it again this year if I can. Out of the whole trip, that ledge above Mystery Spring was probably the only time I was truly terrified - it scared me more than that exit rap in Pine Creek, which I'd previously built up into a really big deal in my mind.

There are lots of us, we can take it in turns waiting in line, we *will* get those permits, especially since it's looking quite likely that the east side canyons are off-limits this June. Only thing I have a permit for at the moment is Behunin.

32953

(A longer exposure would have been blurred on account of the quaking in terror! I have been converted to the wisdom of rope bags since that was taken, yes) :nod:

[sarahlizzy]

My 2 cents - If I had a choice between Imlay sneak & peak and Mystery - I'd pick the sneak and peak almost every time. (Both take the same amount of effort - but at least with imlay the effort is exerted in the canyon unlike Mystery where all that energy is exerted just so you can get a permit)

Some of us are not even close to the level of experience and technical competence to do Imlay without either needing rescue or getting ourselves killed. Having never done a class 4 canyon, Mystery is probably the most amazing Zion experience I've had, and I can well understand why competition for the permits is so fierce. Perhaps I'd feel differently if I was of an ability where Imlay was something I could contemplate, but I'm not, and if I get to do Mystery again this year, it will make my 5000 mile trip to Zion worthwhile by itself.

I don't mind losing a night's sleep for that - I'll only get to do this a few times in my life.

[jman]

Sarah, in your picture at Mystery Springs, did you use a runner, or daisy chain, or heck even a bunny strap to secure yourself to that webbing-line that takes you to the bolts?

If you clipped-in, it might ease your nerves a bit next time, rather than hand-over-hand....scary!

[Scott P]

I guess I'm a party pooper too, but as Zion canyons go I too think Mystery is fairly average, though the last part is super cool. I've always wondered why it's Tom's favorite, though different strokes for different folks I guess and I still think it's well worth doing (and still better than most canyons outside Zion).

As mentioned, Imaly is better, but yes, it does require skills. Personally, I think Pine Creek is better than Mystery. I really like the cathedral section especially. Subway is prettier than Mystery IMHO with all it's super awesome pools, waterfalls and the Subway itself. I liked Icebox better too, but the exit is long. I even like Right Fork better, but that's really apples and oranges.

Mystery is still a good canyon, but as Zion goes (to me) there are some canyons in Zion that are as appealing or more so.

================================================== ===============================================

Anyway, there is a secret for getting walk in permits in Zion. If you are coming from the north, rather than heading straight to Zion Canyon, head to the Kolob visitor center instead and be there at opening time (especially for a next day permit). I've never seen people line up there. Chances are (and even when we were there on weekends and including on a popular holiday weekend) that while the people are waiting in a long line in Zion Canyon you will be getting your walk permit at the Kolob Visitor Center. Unless things have changed, they issue permits for every canyon in Zion, even the ones accessed from Zion Canyon.

[sarahlizzy]

Sarah, in your picture at Mystery Springs, did you use a runner, or daisy chain, or heck even a bunny strap to secure yourself to that webbing-line that takes you to the bolts?

If you clipped-in, it might ease your nerves a bit next time, rather than hand-over-hand....scary!

I'm attached to the bolts with a canyon quickdraw, and yes, was clipped very firmly to the webbing line on the way over!

ETA: There is not enough money in the world to persuade me to walk out there without a safety tether.

[sarahlizzy]

As mentioned, Imaly is better, but yes, it does require skills. Personally, I think Pine Creek is better than Mystery. I really like the cathedral section especially. Subway is prettier than Mystery IMHO with all it's super awesome pools, waterfalls and the Subway itself. I liked Icebox better too, but the exit is long. I even like Right Fork better, but that's really apples and oranges.

Pine Creek was fun, and I'd like to do it again. The Subway is really pretty, but they're both pay on exit canyons, and I got a bit of a sense of "are we nearly there yet?" when done with the technical sections of both (especially Pine Creek - the boulders were fun, for the first 20 minutes). I found the exit from Mystery to be something special though, and the rest of the canyon was a lot of fun too! It has more raps than Pine Creek and the Subway put together and either one of Mystery Spring (for the nerve-tingling exposure on that ledge) and Mystery Falls (crowd pleaser!) make the whole thing worthwhile for me.

[CarpeyBiggs]

My 2 cents - If I had a choice between Imlay sneak & peak and Mystery - I'd pick the sneak and peak almost every time. (Both take the same amount of effort - but at least with imlay the effort is exerted in the canyon unlike Mystery where all that energy is exerted just so you can get a permit)

Ryan, do you remember our trip through Imlay? The one that resulted in me touching down in the narrows at 9:05 pm and proceeding to run through the narrows in a drysuit, catching the last shuttle bus at the Temple at 10:05 pm as it was pulling away, waving my headlamp to catch them? Yeah, THAT was fun...

Imlay and Mystery are NOWHERE near the same level of experience required.

And mystery is a great canyon, everyone should do it.

[ratagonia]

I guess I'm a party pooper too, ...

Anyway, there is a secret for getting walk in permits in Zion. If you are coming from the north, rather than heading straight to Zion Canyon, head to the Kolob visitor center instead and be there at opening time (especially for a next day permit). I've never seen people line up there. Chances are (and even when we were there on weekends and including on a popular holiday weekend) that while the people are waiting in a long line in Zion Canyon you will be getting your walk permit at the Kolob Visitor Center. Unless things have changed, they issue permits for every canyon in Zion, even the ones accessed from Zion Canyon.

Yes you are!

Not sure the Kolob Canyons Visitor Center opens at 7 am like the window at the main one. Actually, pretty sure it does not. Also, the employees there are often a little slow on writing permits, so I'm not sure it would be so much faster, but it was good for the Friday Night permits when coming down from Salt Lake.

Tom

[Pelon1]

Once again Tom you are correct the Kolob Canyons Visitor Center opens at 0800.

[Scott P]

Yes you are!

That's OK with me. Although I thought it was worthwhile, I just didn't get the "best canyon in Zion" thing. I know I'm not alone and have heard many others (several of which are members of this group) have the same opinion. Your good buddy MK, rates at as #27 in his book. Of course, the only way to find out is to Mystery Canyon, so I guess everyone should do it. If not rating Mystery #1 in Zion makes me a party pooper, so be it.

Anyway, (unfortunately) I haven't done Heaps, Kolob (Upper) or Boundary (and a few of the "secret ones"), but these would be the technical Zion Canyons I have done approximately in order that I like them (on the other hand comparing canyons in Zion is like comparing apples and oranges).

1. Imlay

2. Subway

3. Pine Creek

4. Icebox

5. Right Fork

6. Mystery

7. Secret Falls

8. Echo

9. Keyhole

10. Nameless

11. Beartrap (from Chasm Lake)

Of course if just about any canyon in Zion was located anywhere else in the world, it would be considered a world wonder. .....and of course opinions may vary, especially from the party poopers. For example, I take it that you didn't seem to like Right Fork too much and that the canyon is boring below Double Falls. For me exploring the hidden treasures in the side canyons below Double Falls is one of the highlights of Right Fork. If I like that part and you don't does that make you a party pooper? I guess we're all party poopers in our own way, at least if opinions vary on our favorite canyons.

I've heard some people say that Kolob is the best canyon in Zion. I heard another (I think it was Shane) say it was over-rated.

I like Right Fork. I've heard others say they didn't like it at all.

Both Shane and JW said Behunin was really lame. I believe you and Brian said it was awesome.

Both Harvey and SA told me that they didn't think Mystery was that great. It is your favorite.

One person just posted that Eye of the Needle was their favorite. I've heard that that one (I think by SB) is over-rated as well.

We're all party poopers in our own way.

I've never heard anyone say (yet at least) that Imlay or Heaps were lame or over-rated in any way. Perhaps by the process of elimination, these two could be considered the best canyons in Zion (now where's the emoticon). Of course for the unprepared or beginner, they would be the worse........



Not sure the Kolob Canyons Visitor Center opens at 7 am like the window at the main one. Actually, pretty sure it does not. Also, the employees there are often a little slow on writing permits, so I'm not sure it would be so much faster, but it was good for the Friday Night permits when coming down from Salt Lake.



I guess you are right, but even so when we've showed up at the Kolob Visitor Center, we didn't have any problems getting a next day permit, even for places like the Subway on 4th of July weekend. We didn't have problems getting one for Mystery, Echo or Keyhole either on a weekend, though I guess we could have just got lucky.


It has more raps than Pine Creek and the Subway put together

We did five raps in Mystery (3 in the Rock Narrows, Mystery Springs and the falls) which is about the same about we did in Pine Creek, though it seems like everyone comes up with a different amount of raps for either canyon.

[ratagonia]

That's OK with me. Although I thought it was worthwhile, I just didn't get the "best canyon in Zion" thing. I know I'm not alone and have heard many others (several of which are members of this group) have the same opinion. Your good buddy MK, rates at as #27 in his book.

I never said "best"; I have said "favorite" - quite a difference.

Among other attributes of my (cough cough) 'buddy' MK is a distinct lack of taste. IMNEHO.

Tom

[Scott P]

I never said "best"; I have said "favorite" - quite a difference.

An interesting difference though. When reading your book, I took "favorite" to mean "best", which is why in a way I was expecting Mystery to be the "best" canyon in Zion and IMHO I didn't feel that way after the fact.

Anyway, if "favorite" doesn't mean "best", I'd be curious as to what say, your favorite five canyons in Zion were versus the "best" five in Zion (and I already know that "best" can mean a lot of different things). I'd really be interested to see the list.


IMNEHO

I guess it's rather embassing, but I don't know what this one means. I know what IMNSHO means, but what's the "E" for? Emperor?

[Cirrus2000]

In My Not Exactly Humble Opinion?

Dang, so many canyons to try. So many right there in Zion to try get permits for...

My very humble opinion, after having done just a few technical/semi-technical canyons in/around Zion:

Orderville was not so exciting as I'd hoped.

Subway was pretty, but not really worth all the hiking - at least not for multiple repeat trips. Worth it the once, and I'll probably do it again sometime, but not an annual trip I'd like to make.

I think that for both of those, I was hoping for more technical... spice?

Keyhole, when you add up the approach and exit, is one of the most fun canyons I've ever seen, as far as bang for the buck goes.

Mystery was terrific, and is a must do.

Pine Creek is amazing also, and I look forward to doing it multiple times to see its many faces.

Engelstead, Birch, and Fat Man's were all a lot of fun, and I'd happily do them again - though a large part of the enjoyment probably came from the people I shared them with.

The rest? Well, I'll have to try 'em out and get back to you... :haha:

[canyoncaver]

Your loss. Of course, you shouldn't need to.



My loss? No, I think not. You guys can have all the backcountry window sleepovers you like. I don't really feel like I'm missing out on a whole lot there!

I agree that no one should have to wait in line for a permit at 3:00am. I am sorry that anybody has to do that. I just don't, because I don't have to. As I said before, I'm sure my attitude would be different if I lived out of state or across the Atlantic. It is easier for us locals, as there is always next weekend. Sarah, I really hope you get all the Zion permits you want, and I am sorry that our bureaucracy is making that difficult for you. I really hope you don't have to do any canyons sleep-deprived. The series of events that leads to that is truly ridiculous, and must be changed.

My point is that I have never had trouble getting a next-day permit for some canyon that was worthwhile. In the meantime, I usually go ahead and pick up a same-day for Pine Creek or something else fun. Both times I have been to Mystery, I picked up a permit at about 7:15am the day before. It always seems like most of the people ahead of me in line just want Subway or Narrows permits. As someone noted, the Kolob visitor center is great for next-day permits, especially for us northerners.

I love Mystery Canyon. But it is not the be-all, end-all. There are lots of other options that are just as fun. Just see what is available and grab one within your skill level. Birch, Misery, and Yankee Doodle are always available. Those are my "can't get a permit" canyons. Or, drive three hours east and there are more canyons than you could ever do in your life! In the Swell or the Roost, the only things going on at 3:00am are sleeping or partying. (Both acceptable) No permits, no lines, and all camping gear is welcome.

However, it is true Zion canyons have something special that other areas lack. Guess what, that is why everybody wants to go there all at the same time! That is why unfortunately there has to be some kind of regulation. If we are going to bitch about the current situation (and I feel that is warranted) we need to also offer alternatives. We may succeed in changing the status quo, but some other system will take its place. If you write a "the system sucks" letter, offer something else reasonable for them to chew on. Iceaxe's suggestion is a good example.

Happy letter writing and line standing...

[Iceaxe]

FWIW: Fat Man's Misery should be on everyone's fall back list.... it is an awesome canyon and doesn't require a permit. It is certianly one of the Zion classics on par with anything else the park has to offer.

[trackrunner]

Your loss. Of course, you shouldn't need to.

We have a new place for complaints about Zion National Park and the permit system:

Representative Jim Matheson
321 North Mall Dr., #E101B
St. George, UT 84790

with a copy to Superintendent, Zion NP, Springdale UT 84767

You will need to provide quite a bit more context, and be quite a bit more polite.

here's a way to start:

I am writing to you today because of a difficult situation in Zion National Park.

Etc. etc.

Tom

Tom is there a reason sending letters to Rep Matheson's St. George office over main office, which would be my local office.

[ratagonia]

Tom is there a reason sending letters to Rep Matheson's St. George office over main office, which would be my local office.

Whatever works for you. That happens to be MY local office, but either will do.

Tom

[trackrunner]

Whatever works for you. That happens to be MY local office, but either will do.

Tom

thanks for the reply I just wanted to make sure it wasn't a mass coordinated campaign to write to the St George office.

[ratagonia]

thanks for the reply I just wanted to make sure it wasn't a mass coordinated campaign to write to the St George office.

I think it would work best if we concentrate on Matheson, though i think whatever Matheson office will work just fine. :moses:

[Scopulus]

...but I guess we now need a five year study, thousands of dollars, and...

Thousands? News flash... In an effort to increase efficiency, the government no longer counts in numbers of anything less than a million.

[ratagonia]

In My Not Exactly Humble Opinion?


yeah, along those lines. I was thinking In My Never EVER Humble Opinion.

:moses:

[sarahlizzy]

Posting this from the permit line, thanks to my iPad and a borrowed AT&T SIM. On the positive side it looks like I will get a Mystery permit for Saturday if I can stay awake for another six hours. On the negative side, if my friend and I had got here 5 minutes later than we did then we wouldn't have got the permit (and I am really glad my friend is here, because otherwise sitting here in the pitch darkness would be seriously freaking me out).

We got here at 10:45, by the way. The things we do for fun...

[sarahlizzy]

Losing. The will. To live.

Please send caffeine!

[Scott Card]

Losing. The will. To live.

Please send caffeine! Therein lies one of the problems. The permit system and line makes you lose the will to canyoneer. It soooo detracts from the "Wilderness" experience. Sorry for your lousy experience. If I were there I would send you caffeine.

[asdf]

Please remind everyone in the permit line that there are no canyons outside of Zion that are worth checking out. Going anywhere besides Zion would be like spending your honeymoon at the Pillow Talk hotel in Wellington.

Thanks :haha:

[trackrunner]

If I were there I would send you caffeine.

no if you were there you'd get her in trouble with the park.

note inside joke read scott's trip report & rant on the subway

[Scott Card]

no if you were there you'd get her in trouble with the park.

note inside joke read scott's trip report & rant on the subway



Thank You, Thank You very much.....:mrgreen: :lol8:

And hey, it was the Ranger that wanted to get away from me and my venting when all was said and done. He had enough of me.

I really am nice. I promise.

[trackrunner]

I really am nice. I promise.

WUT, a nice lawery?

[hank moon]

it's the lawyer's fault

no, wait...it's our fault that we let "the lawyers" (i.e. Congress + president) do what they do. so there.

[stefan]

It's also why I've never been to Coyote Buttes.

try it in december. although the days are shorter, it's truly a wonderful time to be out there. the light's a bit different, and the air crisp. i spent 10-11 hours out there hiking once in december and didn't see a single soul all day.

[stefan]

Please send caffeine!

i'm sorry that's a camping amenity (breakfast) and would constitute a camping violation :wink:

[Cirrus2000]

i'm sorry that's a camping amenity (breakfast) and would constitute a camping violation :wink:

So... A coffee at 3 AM is a camping amenity, but is a coffee at 7 AM? :ne_nau:

Now, if all went well yesterday, sarahlizzy should be in Mystery right now. :2thumbs:

Looking forward to a trip report.

:popcorn:

[sarahlizzy]

So... A coffee at 3 AM is a camping amenity, but is a coffee at 7 AM? :ne_nau:

Now, if all went well yesterday, sarahlizzy should be in Mystery right now. :2thumbs:

Looking forward to a trip report.

:popcorn:

It was awesome. I will do a trip report in due course, but first there is to be pizza. :clap:

[Cirrus2000]

It was awesome. I will do a trip report in due course, but first there is to be pizza. :clap:
:2thumbs:

And the Pizza & Noodle takes credit cards now!

[sarahlizzy]

:2thumbs:

And the Pizza & Noodle takes credit cards now!

That was really handy because I didn't realise it was possible for six people to be that hungry :haha:

[joycem137]

That was really handy because I didn't realise it was possible for six people to be that hungry :haha:

*laughs* I was thinking that six pizzas for six women was a bit much, but when we only had a single pizza left to take back... wow.

[Cirrus2000]

*laughs* I was thinking that six pizzas for six women was a bit much, but when we only had a single pizza left to take back... wow.
Why aren't you in Keyhole?!? Or are you guys done already? Now get off the internetz and go have more fun!!

Welcome to Bogley!

[joycem137]

Why aren't you in Keyhole?!? Or are you guys done already? Now get off the internetz and go have more fun!!

Welcome to Bogley!

Heh. We're actually leaving for it *right now*!

Thanks for the welcome! I figured I should join since sarahlizzy keeps talking about it.

[sarahlizzy]

Just back from Keyhole. Very cold, not much water in it, didn't see anyone else which was odd. Loads of fun though!

[zoeimogen]

Just back from Keyhole. Very cold, not much water in it, didn't see anyone else which was odd. Loads of fun though!

Yes, I particularly liked the bit where I passed the string, err, I mean canyonfire rope forward for the bit that used to be a bumslide because we were concerned about the lack of water in it this time, with the biner still attached. Sarahlizzy announces it's long enough to reach the bottom, "more or less".

I'm not sure I like the "less" part of that!

[sarahlizzy]

Yes, I particularly liked the bit where I passed the string, err, I mean canyonfire rope forward for the bit that used to be a bumslide because we were concerned about the lack of water in it this time, with the biner still attached. Sarahlizzy announces it's long enough to reach the bottom, "more or less".

I'm not sure I like the "less" part of that!

It was definitely a "more" type situation - I could see the rope in the water, so there :fitz:

[zoeimogen]

It was definitely a "more" type situation - I could see the rope in the water, so there :fitz:

This was not immediately obvious from your initial comment at the time :-)

[Cirrus2000]

"string" :haha:

[joycem137]

Just back from Keyhole. Very cold, not much water in it, didn't see anyone else which was odd. Loads of fun though!

I also think that the second half of the long swimming hallway got a whole bunch of sand dumped down in it. I remember that section being a full swim the whole way down, and although the water levels were quite a bit lower, there's no way they were low enough to expose stuff that we used to have to swim through.

My memory could be wrong here, but I just don't remember the swimming section being quite that short, even with the lower water.

[canyoncaver]

Glad you got to go to Mystery, Sarah!

[nonot]

You guys talking about 3 AM? The people snarfing the permits last weekend were there at 10:30 PM the previous day! What a joke!

[Cirrus2000]

We were talking about 3AM, but sarahlizzy mentioned getting there at 10:45. Crazy system. This is increasing safety in the Zion backcountry?

[SaraMG]

You guys talking about 3 AM? The people snarfing the permits last weekend were there at 10:30 PM the previous day! What a joke!

You're not one of the two blokes who got off the canyon shuttle looking for Mystery permits the night sarahlizzy and I were there, were you? We got in line about half past ten and only barely made the cut! There really is something borked there. :cry1:

[nonot]

You're not one of the two blokes who got off the canyon shuttle looking for Mystery permits the night sarahlizzy and I were there, were you? We got in line about half past ten and only barely made the cut! There really is something borked there. :cry1:

Nope, but you may have talked to the "minion" we sent. Permits increase safety...right...:crazy:...a bunch of dog-ass tired people trying to do a canyon having to forfeit sleep just so they could get a permit....:cry1:.

What is the penalty for getting caught poaching?

[derekholmes]

lol love it!

[Tucker]

..

[sarahlizzy]

We did Mystery just after the snow melt this year and it was very obvious that the canyon itself is responsible for a lot of erosion down there. Fresh loose rock and snapped trees everywhere. I dont think we were making it much worse.

[Geary]

Scott,

On your comments regarding trail building, seems that there are a lot of folks with good intentions that have never used a chain saw or drill, or even a pick and shovel and may be prone to hurting themselfs or just screwing things up. I've been a volunteer property manager for a cave owned by a conservation group and have worked with all kinds of folks - from newbees to professionals. In addition, you have issues with you want built and how long it will last verses someone else's vision of what is write. As a resource manager, you want to utilize the man power to get some work done but you don't want to have to redo it in a few years. What I have found is when you get ahold of some real professionals like you and your group, the best thing is to stand back and let them work and make sure they have the tools and material to get the job done and then ask them back.

What I've found is that if you develop a relationship with the property managers, you get more freedom and standing invitations to help. We've done work for a state natural area and the park manager gives us a list of tasks and throws us the keys to the truck and the tool barn and says have at it. So, don't give up, you may want to get more involved as I know these parks are understaffed and can use the help. Anyway, thanks for volunteering and hope you have a little understanding of what these resource managers are faced with.

Geary

[ratagonia]

We did Mystery just after the snow melt this year and it was very obvious that the canyon itself is responsible for a lot of erosion down there. Fresh loose rock and snapped trees everywhere. I dont think we were making it much worse.

The Death Gully is in the Carmel formation, which has a lot of sticky icky mud/shale and forms a hard layer after being wetted. When we clamber down the Death Gully, we are mostly on the surface of a debris flow from the big winter in 2005, and the surface is hardened. The effect of our many feet is really quite minor.

Tom

[Bubbles]

Hello all,

I just found this thread after coming over from the ACA, and I have to agree with what several posters said about Mystery not being the most spectacular canyon I've ever done. I led a group in Zion on the week of June 14th and was (according to the backcountry desk when pulling a walk-in permit) to be the first in Mystery that season, though there was evidence of a group about an hour ahead of us. Perhaps they were poaching it, but over the five days of being in Zion I had no problem getting walk-in permits for whatever I wanted. I just showed up to the permit line about a half hour before it opened. Maybe it was easy because the water levels were just coming down that week?

We did the Subway from the top, Mystery, Pine Creek, and Keyhole. We also pulled a permit for Behunin but ended up doing Mystery instead, and had a permit for Imlay but didn't do it because we would have been the first in it that season, and I didn't feel comfortable pioneering it.

In Mystery's defense, the last two rappels are kick butt.

Sarah, glad you got to do it!

[ratagonia]

Hello all,

I just found this thread after coming over from the ACA, and I have to agree with what several posters said about Mystery not being the most spectacular canyon I've ever done. I led a group in Zion on the week of June 14th and was (according to the backcountry desk when pulling a walk-in permit) to be the first in Mystery that season, though there was evidence of a group about an hour ahead of us. Perhaps they were poaching it, but over the five days of being in Zion I had no problem getting walk-in permits for whatever I wanted. I just showed up to the permit line about a half hour before it opened. Maybe it was easy because the water levels were just coming down that week?

We did the Subway from the top, Mystery, Pine Creek, and Keyhole. We also pulled a permit for Behunin but ended up doing Mystery instead, and had a permit for Imlay but didn't do it because we would have been the first in it that season, and I didn't feel comfortable pioneering it.

In Mystery's defense, the last two rappels are kick butt.

Sarah, glad you got to do it!

Welcome to the Bogley, Bubbles!!!

Tom :moses:

[Bubbles]

Thanks, Tom!

As for the whole permit system boondoggle at Zion, the way I've always viewed wilderness experiences is that National Parks get the majority of all visitation compared to National Monuments, NRAs, NWRs, NFs, etc. Everyone knows Zion has great canyoneering, and its all very accessible. So everyone goes there.

Coming from So. Cal and spending lots of time in the Angeles and Death Valley, I am not used to meeting anyone who does canyons, let alone running into anyone in canyons. I was surprised and a little disappointed to see other groups on every canyon we did in Zion. But again, everyone knows that what Zion is about. Some guy even went out and wrote a book on it! :haha:

I think the 80 person/day quota on the Subway is ridiculous, they should allow a heck of a lot more, but having dealt with a couple aggravating traffic jams on Pine Creek and Keyhole, I can't say I fully disagree with the low limits.

I agree with what an earlier poster said about a lottery system for people waiting at the window. It's not a Zeppelin concert, lives are on the line!