My Rappelling Accident in Moab

[jman]

So my friend and I had this trip planned out for Moab from Last Sunday till this Thursday.

We planned to do Big Horn, Corona Arch, Tierdrop, Elephante Butte, Medieval Chamber, Hunter Canyon and a few other hikes.

On Sunday afternoon we drove down from Northern Utah and found a good campsite along the Colorado. The entire area was soaked and mini streams and waterfals were abundunt. Also, on Sunday the campsites were nearly full and most hotels were full.

My friend Ian and slept in till 8:30 and decided to do The Tunnel and Big Horn first. We arrived at the cottonwod wash around 9:30. I have previously visited the tunnel on a previous trip but Ian has not. We reached the Tunnel and all of the sandstone was covered in a lot of dust and mud which made running up to the entrance virtually impossible. We both wanted to enter it so got creative and did a packtoss of my bag and got right inside the "pothole" at the entrance. We attached about 20feet of webbing to it and successfully climbed the webbing and entered the tunnel. Good practice and very cool!

So we continued on and worked our way up the scree slope to the top of the Plateau. That ascent is a beast but it paid off with all of the streams and waterfalls flowing over the rocks (btw - blue sunny skies). After 20 min on top of the plateau we found Big Horn and found some entrance webbing that people would use as a handline to descend it. This seemed a little boring to us so we decided to go back on top of the plataeu and look for another canyon. Either one one or two canyons above Big Horn we found our canyon.

The first 200ft is downclimable but only by experts due to the very steep slopes, wider canyon, and a few 4-5ft overhangs leading to the next pothole with a lip. We continued on and came to a 55ft rappel in a grotto. The grotto was very flat and there was no holes in the rock to create anchors and on all sides was very steep. And before you entered the grotto, there is a 20ft vry steep slide to enter it. Climbing out naturally would be nearly impossible without the aid of ascending gear and potshots, hooks, etc. So we were in this unescapable Grotto with only 3 rocks the size of basketballs. We found a few plants in there and dug with our hands and placed a deadman anchor behind the plants. We then successfully descended the 55 foot free rappel.

After that it led to more downclimbing and soon we found a ramp down the base of the cliffs and within 200 yards of downclimbing we hit the road and walked back to our car.

When we were in there, we found no bolts, no webbing, not even 1 single rope groove in the sandstone and figured this was a first descent in many months. The canyon was unimpressive and would not suggest that canyon to anyone. We named it "Not-BigHorn."

After this we had lunch at 4pm. We had a few options of what to do next and decided on Corona Arch Rappelling.

We were on top of the arch by 5:30pm. On top we took our time, laughed and talked, rested, and took lots of pictures. My friend Ian got cold-feet due to the free-rappel length and climbed back down to the bottom of the arch. I then clipped in and was ready to go! This would be my 5th time on this rappel. As I lowered myself down the rope (Imlay Fire 8.3mm, single strand on Biner block) I first noticed that I was going pretty fast. I stopped about 1/4 down and tied off to let my right hand rest and let my glove cool down. After 30seconds or so I continued down very slowly using my leg carabiner to slow me down too. At about 30-40 feet from the ground, my braking hand started to spasm and I was losing control of the braking. I tried immediately to stop the descent by pulling up and tieing up, but my hand would not budge...

End result..I dropped (AKA cratered) anywhere from 30-40 feet with no friction on the atc to slow me down. I dropped like a fat man. I didn't black out or anything and remember vividly of coming to the ground and landing on both ankles, which then immediately threw me on my back. When I landed, I also bit into my tongue and left 4-5 deep puncture wounds. I didn't bite anything off fortunately, and all the feeling has returned to all parts of my tongue, but initially it was bleeding for 30minutes or so.

As soon as I landed, I immediately thought that I broke both ankles, broke a rib, broke my back and possibly had some internal damage (from the compression of landing from so high up). I was in shock and was trying to make sense of my body's situation as I was almost crying while saying "ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ouch....." (I'm EMT-B certified) and my friend who was taking pictures of me from far away run to me immediately, and told him my instructions. Check my eyes for equal-ness, reactive-ness, and dilation. The told him to do a rapid body sweep checking for protruding bones or rigidness in the stomach, or neck abnormalities, etc. By this time, I was gaining control of the situation and confirmed I didn't hit my head or neck, and there was no back pain. Then I proceeded (while laying down of course) to wiggle my toes and fingers to see if there was any back nerve damage. I could move them! We continued checking my body for other damage besides the extruciating pain in my ankles. By this time it was after 7 and getting chilly, and the sun was starting to set. After about 10minutes of evaluating me, I told him to leave me the water, food and all the clothing he had and to elevate my feet. He then ran down to the Gold Bar campground (a mile+ one way) to ask to get some volunteers to create a harness and save me.

(We didn't have cell phone reception at all up there and I gave him my 2way radio to keep in communication while he ran for help).

What seemed like 20minutes to me as I was alone in my thoughts and said a small prayer of asking God to send some help for my friend, Ian came back with 3 other people which turned out to be more than an hour. By this time it was black outside, and everyone was running towards me with headlamps on.

To be continued later tonight......

[Iceaxe]

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/181204/giantpopcorn.gif

[Jaxx]

OH dang! :popcorn:

[R]

OH dang! :popcorn:

I was thinking a harsher expletive might be in order.

[DOSS]

OH dang! :popcorn:

I was thinking a harsher expletive might be in order.

how about FORK!


and you can't just leave your audience hanging like that.. not cool :popcorn:

[jman]

Sorry to keep everyone in suspense...I was very busy last night.

Continuing on...

So, Ian and three guys that he grabbed from the campgrounds came running towards me with their headlights on. We kept in constant communication so they knew I was "ok". But I was getting pretty cold (a cold night about 45+ F) and it was pitch black.

They got to me and asked questions how I was doing and two of the guys brought up a fleece jacket and goose-feather jacket. I wore both of those and within minutes my upper body was sweating. It was a great feeling to be warm again. I took off the down jacket and just wore the fleece now. After that, I told them to do another rapid assessment of my body and condition and they and I decided that we could make it out of there.

For the next 1/2 mile or so I put my arms around two of the guys shoulders as they carried me down the un-even trail. They switched turns with the other two guys there and did their best in taking me down.

Once we were past the ladders and everyone's shoulder's were exhausted of carrying me we took about a 10minute break. While we were resting we heard some voices and a bunch of headlights coming UP the trail. There was about 9 people in this group and they were all wearing reflective helmets that said rescue. I immediately thought it was some SAR rescue group coming to help. Nope. It was actually a bunch of med-students from Lincoln Nebraska Community College during their Spring Break heading up to Corona Arch to rappel off it! To me, it was a prayer answered! The students asked if they could help and obviously we let them. They didn't have any medical gear with them, only ropes and webbing. My friend and I also had over 100+ ft of webbing each in our backpacks and we took out one of them and created a sling or harness for me to lay on. We tied a loop into the end of the webbing and pulled it to the other side of my body and created another loop. We did that 6 more times so 8 people could hold on to a loop and my weight would be distributed. Then the people who were not carrying a loop would switch turns holding my head up as they carried me down.

For the last mile or so, everyone worked their butts off and were sweating and did a awesome job in carrying me down safely! It took close to 2 hours to go the mile due to the terrain but they did it! Those guys saved the day!

Next they loaded me into the car and Ian drove me to the Hospital in Moab. We got to the ER a little before 11pm and it was empty. Very dead. Ian told the admitting nurse I was there and just gave him a wheelchair and that was it. Ian spent then next 15min by himself helping me into the wheelchair. (where was a nurse or tech to assist?) We go inside and a ER tech asked me lots of questions and did a basic assessment of my body and told me the doc would be in soon. About 30minutes later, the Dr. came in and and told me to get some X-Rays.

The Rad Tech guys was pretty cool. His name is Matt and in his 40s and said that he use to guide for a local Canyoneering company. hmm....interesting.

After the x-rays came back, the Dr. came back in around 2am and told me that I only has 2 fractures. Both on my left leg - on the talus and tibia. And the fractures are actually 3 fragments that chipped from the talus (one of the supporting ankle bones). The right leg had nothing obvious showing, which meant no fractures or breaks, etc - but not definitive.

So the Dr. admitted me that night and I spent the night there and was actually taken care of very well! They gave me two hydracadone's (AKA vicodin) every 6 hours for the pain and made sure I was warm, and had plenty of water, etc. Very helpful and compassionate nurses.

About 6am, they wheeled me back to do some CT scan (more definitive than X-Ray) to make sure that's all that was going on in my ankles. After 40 minutes of testing - they wheeled me back into the room and the orthopedic Dr. came in and told me nothing else showed up on the CT scans! The Dr. also said it would be a good idea to get some x-rays of my chest, and lower back just to make sure there was nothing wrong either.

So, they wheeled me off again to the X-ray room and about 10minutes later I was done. The took me back to the room and the Dr. came back in and told me that nothing was bruised or showed up on the x-ray and that my internal organs "look good".

About 5 hours after that, my Mother and brother picked me and took me home.

There's a lot more details, but I don't have the strength to type it anymore...sorry.


Today is Day 2 at home, and I have only had 1 Loritab pill for the pain in the past two days!

I survived a 25-35 foot fall and survived with only a minor fractures on my left ankle. 0 back pain (even though I had compression of my upper body when I landed), and 0 pain everywhere else. And even now, without any loritabs, my pain level is about a 1 out of 10. And I was very fortunate who had a friend who RAN the entire way to the campground and back, and very fortunate to have run into the med students who also assisted in carrying me down. I've also been very fortunate to have all of the outpouring of love, support, and help from family, friends and even acquaintances. One story that really touched me was my mom had a Dentist appointment yesterday and told the Dentist (whom I have only seen twice in the past 3 years) about my 30foot dead-fall and how I was so lucky in suriviving - and the Dr. said, "it wasn't Brett was it?! I hope he gets better! We'll have to send him a card." I mean come on, I've only seen him twice and was almost brought to tears when my mother told me that story. And just today, I received the card. It's from my dentist)!

So I am very thankful for everyone who was involved especially my hero, my friend Ian.


I have a Ortho appt at Mckay Dee this Monday, and possibly surgery later that week, so wish me luck on that.

So lesson learned:

Never ever rappel off a free-rappel without a belay (should be used on every rappel, but ESPECIALLY free-hanging ones). Which we didn't.

Second, always carry 2 way radios (even if you will be in close-communication your ENTIRE trip....u just NEVER know). Which we did.

Third, always let someone know your plans or itinerary. Which we did again.


I do have a question though - my step-mom was telling me that there is some tool that you clip on to you or your rope that "senses" when you go fast down a rappel it will "automatically" slow you do - preventing falling or "cratering" which I did. Sound familiar? I do not know of such a device.


Pics to come shortly!

[Iceaxe]

I do have a question though - my step-mom was telling me that there is some tool that you clip on to you that "sense" when you go fast down a rappel, it will automatically slow you do - preventing falling or "cratering" which I did. sound familiar? I do not know of such a device.


Sounds like your step mom is taking about a Petzl shunt, or maybe an autoblock or prusiks..... Which can go above or below your rappel devise. Both methods have pro's and con's.... same goes for using an autoblock in general.

:cool2:

[Iceaxe]

Here is a pretty good video of a Petzl Shunt being used for a self belay while climbing. Watch the video and you will get the idea.

The correct way to use a shunt while rappeling is to keep your hands off of the lever and simply place your palm on the back of the device and slide it toward you.

And a warning.... you should never use a shunt or autoblock when rappeling in water (class C canyons). The devise might lock up and you could drowned before you get the device to release.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOiWr_2YLl4

[jman]

Hmm....I know that self-belay devices work and told my step-mom about that, but she said it was different. She said you clip it on when you rappel and if you are going past a certain set device speed - the device will click in and automatically brake.

She says her son uses it all the time...I'll have to tell her to ask him the name of it.

Anyways, thanks shane.

[jman]

here are some pics...see pic description.

[trackrunner]

Hmm....I know that self-belay devices work and told my step-mom about that, but she said it was different. She said you clip it on when you rappel and if you are going past a certain set device speed - the device will click in and automatically brake.

She says her son uses it all the time...I'll have to tell her to ask him the name of it.


only others that come to mined are petzl stop, grigri . . . but those don't work exactly like that.

[Brian in SLC]

Hmm....I know that self-belay devices work and told my step-mom about that, but she said it was different. She said you clip it on when you rappel and if you are going past a certain set device speed - the device will click in and automatically brake.

She says her son uses it all the time...I'll have to tell her to ask him the name of it.


only others that come to mined are petzl stop, grigri . . . but those don't work exactly like that.

I've used one of these at a climbing gym:

http://www.redpointdescender.com/

Note that they have been recalled/discontinued.

Way too huge to take into the field. Mount on a wall for use in a climbing gym. Kinda nutty to use, and, takes a bit to get used to it. You fall onto the rope and the device catches you, and gently lowers you down. Gives me the heebie jeebies. Kinda neat way to climb solo and get a bunch of laps in solo, though.

Yeah, I can think of a Petzl Stop, or, maybe a Gri Gri.

There's a few lead belay devices like the Wren Industries "Silent Partner" but I've never heard of folks using one for a rappel back up. I guess you could. Be a pain, though. Big device.

Petzl makes a device called the "Rig". Industrial safety type gear. Looks similar to their "I'D". I don't think any of these devices "sense" when you're travelling too fast though.

http://www.petzl.com/us/pro/self-braking-descenders-0

Anyhoo, yeah, find out what that rig is and let us know.

Sorry to hear about the foot. Heal well!

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[trackrunner]

maybe this device


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGIy4pikkks

[Brian in SLC]

That device doesn't appear to be available to the public (yet). Looks very similar to the Petzl items. Ie, it doesnt' detect when your speed is too high.

-Brian in SLC

[Jaxx]

Good job Ian!!! That is a great story. Pretty lucky that those med guys came by.

[ratagonia]

Hmm....I know that self-belay devices work and told my step-mom about that, but she said it was different. She said you clip it on when you rappel and if you are going past a certain set device speed - the device will click in and automatically brake.

She says her son uses it all the time...I'll have to tell her to ask him the name of it.


only others that come to mined are petzl stop, grigri . . . but those don't work exactly like that.

You might do better to learn how to use the tools you already have, rather than acquiring more gadgets.

Just sayin...

T :moses:

[moabmatt]

You might do better to learn how to use the tools you already have, rather than acquiring more gadgets.

Just sayin...

T :moses:

I'll second this. Not to mention those gadgets may not work on single strand 8mm rope.

[Brian in SLC]

You might do better to learn how to use the tools you already have, rather than acquiring more gadgets.

I didn't want to say it...

Was hoping Mr. "after action analysis" would show up...

Ha ha.

Single strand on a skinny rope for a free air rappel. Hmmm.

I'd a been riggin' for bear. Probably two ATC's, stacked one atop the other. And/or, multiple biners for the single ATC with a munter pre-rigged on the leg, maybe a biner topside for a redirect if need be, and, able to wrap rope around body, switch brake hands, maybe use both hands for brake...etc.

If the brake hand was "gettin' too hot", then that was a clue there wasn't enough friction for the job at hand.

Having a belay is a good idear, if, you don't know either how to rappel, or, how to rig for a high angle, single strand, skinny rope situation (or a combination of the both). But, it doesnt' address the problem that caused the accident in the first place.

It is interesting to ponder. Fatter ropes, more risk tolerant rappel devices, etc, are all things folks use in other disciplines (and, in Europe, fat ropes are the rule, not the exception). We're very used to having, as a standard, these skinny ropes to rappel on. And, we (when I say "we" I mean the community as a whole, not necessarily me) use these skinny cords single strand, with a single ATC type device. That's kinda standard. Its a standard that isn't tolerant of much, uhh, variation in technique and/or experience.

If it was a seasoned caver, on a free rappel in a pit drop for example, they'd rig it totally differently.

Anyhoo...

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[trackrunner]

That device doesn't appear to be available to the public (yet). Looks very similar to the Petzl items. Ie, it doesnt' detect when your speed is too high.

-Brian in SLC

what no comments on how it works well with motor oil lubed ropes? :ne_nau:

I've always wanted a desencer that works well with motor oil.

[Iceaxe]

First off.... Jman, I'm happy it wasn't too serious....

Second.... if I'm reading this all correct (biner block/skinny rope/single strand) it looks like we now have anther accident that we can add to the long list of people getting hurt because of complicating the rigging..... now might be a good time for reevaluating some of the current "standards" folks are using.... or we can wait until someone else actually dies....

Just sayin'....

From: http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19594
[quote=Iceaxe]One of my biggest beefs/complaints is that a lot of folks take simple rigging and make it complicated

[bruce from bryce]

not having done this canyon with it's simulataneous rappel for two people, how does one change the setup when there is only one person.

Is the rope still in the same place?
Is the same anchor used?

ICE: reading into your post are you saying that he should have rigged for double strand and therefore he would not have had a 'lack of friction' issue?

Not sure what you are implying here. Please clarify. Thanks,

bruce from bryce

[Brian in SLC]

First off.... Jman, I'm happy it wasn't too serious....

Second.... if I'm reading this all correct (biner block/skinny rope/single strand) it looks like we now have anther accident that we can add to the long list of people getting hurt because of complicating the rigging..... now might be a good time for reevaluating some of the current "standards" folks are using.... or we can wait until someone else actually dies....

Yeah, who's drivin' this bus, anyhow?

Har har.

Canyon leaders, leaders in the canyon community...

Its kind of a broken record, but...

Using a biner block for no other reason than to just rappel single strand, seems not necessary to me. Especially if you need the friciton, have the rope available, aren't riggin' for contingency...

These kind of accidents just don't seem to happen at this frequency in the climbing community. Just an observation. And, from my admittedly biased point of view.

Anyhoo...

-Brian in SLC

[sarahlizzy]

Veering off slightly - there have been times when I've had a muscle spasm at the climbing gym after climbing a couple of overhanging jugfests on the tall walls (I like those sort of climbs), while coiling my rope up afterwards. What tends to happen is that the muscle controlling my thumb locks so I can't straighten it.

I figure the person most at risk from this is my climbing partner, if instead of coiling the rope, they decide to second or lead the route, and my muscle spasms while belaying them. However, the two times it's happened I've kept control of the other four fingers - it was just the thumb that went, and it only seems to happen while coiling the rope, holding the centre of the coil in the gap between my thumb and index finger to gather it (I was seriously freaked out the first time it happened - I thought I'd bust a tendon). Were it to happen while belaying I'd try to clamp the other four fingers round the rope, call to my climber to find something secure to hold on to, swap hands, and then bring my climber down.

Were this to happen while rapping, I'd like to hope I could swap hands, or have a fireman's belay ready. If I was first down, there'd be no fireman's belay, but I'm wary about using a top belay on a free hanging rap because I'm worried about the ropes tangling. Maybe I'm talking myself into doing this sort of thing with an autoblock (assuming it's a dry landing)?

When I was last in Zion, I was the first of our group to do the Pine Creek exit rap. We rigged it single strand on 9mm with a 'biner block, pull cord not yet deployed, pull side backed up with a figure 8, and I used my ATC-XP in high friction mode with a Z-rig. In the event there was so much friction that I actually had to haul the rope up and into my Z-rig in order to make any downwards progress. Everyone else got a fireman's belay and just did the rap with a second 'biner round the leg loop for extra friction. I think I'd have felt a bit better with someone at the bottom holding the rope, just in case.

I don't know - it's not a nice thing to contemplate, and jman - I'm really pleased to hear your injuries are relatively minor, considering. Here's wishing you a full and speedy recovery.

[Brian in SLC]

Veering off slightly - there have been times when I've had a muscle spasm at the climbing gym after climbing a couple of overhanging jugfests on the tall walls (I like those sort of climbs), while coiling my rope up afterwards. What tends to happen is that the muscle controlling my thumb locks so I can't straighten it.

Wow, that's pretty cool!

I've had my thumb cramp like that too. Where the thumb lays into and across your palm and its really difficult to straighten it out?

Mine usually comes from over gripping on ice tools, or, after a longer session of crack climbing. "Cool" because you're recruiting your thumb on over hanging routes...

I've had mine cramp hard enough that I was a tad worried about finishing a pitch. But, its never been an issue with a rappel, though. Just not the same motion I guess.

If you use an ATC with a belay loop on your harness, the brake side of the rope should be available for either hand to control. So, that's good piece of mind. Most folks I know who are fairly saavy don't get married to one hand for belaying and/or rappelling. Good to go with either. Or both!

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[sarahlizzy]

I've had my thumb cramp like that too. Where the thumb lays into and across your palm and its really difficult to straighten it out?

Yes, that's it!

It started working again after I massaged the muscle for a minute or so.


Mine usually comes from over gripping on ice tools, or, after a longer session of crack climbing. "Cool" because you're recruiting your thumb on over hanging routes...

I suspect it's a subconscious thing - I grip on tightly because of the terror of falling from above my pro on lead, which is irrational because I'd be falling into empty space, and my belayer is competent, and the protection is bomb proof, and I've done it before without incident, and so on.

But that doesn't seem to help :-(

[Iceaxe]

ICE: reading into your post are you saying that he should have rigged for double strand and therefore he would not have had a 'lack of friction' issue?

Only thing I'm sayin' is I see a serious problem with all the accidents that result from the same combination.... biner block/skinny ropes/single strand....

I don't see any other group (climbers/cavers/adventure racers/etc) that rappel using a different combination having similar issues with serious accidents and death's.....

And I can promise you one thing..... if this issue is not addressed I'll be adding more serious accidents to the list...

:cool2:

[jman]

Hmm, a few more replies since last night.

Emperor of Rats:
I do know how to rappel, actually. I have actually done more than just a "few" canyons too. I know my gear as well. People have mentioned using a autoblock. Yup, I could of. But in my mind, it would of been a lot of effort and time into so I just went without it.

Ice Queen:
I was applying the KISS principle as you say. The biner block is VERY easy, not complicated at all. And I'm not a noob as I have numerous times rappelled down this exact same rope tens of times before, and most using a biner block with a contingency anchor - sometimes even being redundant on backups. Ever been to the S curve free-rappel up Little Cottonwood (over 65+ feet)? I've done that over 30+ times in the past 2 years.

All I'm getting at is: I've done many rappels (200+ in the past 6years) and more than a few dozen free-rappels. I know the equipment and I know the gear and I know the skills required. I just never guessed my hand would ever give out like that. I have had 0 accidents, 0 technical close-calls, etc on every trip. I've done other dumb things like forgetting headlamps, or stoves, or first-aid gear...but never technical gear. That's the 1st thing I grab when I head down to the basement.

So you can't say I'm experienced. What you can say is that I was dumb and overlooked my backup for myself. When I'm in a group - it's always different and the most care and safety is taken into account. By myself, I'm not under so much pressure.

This trip was unfortunate because I overlooked an IMPORTANT (and easy) thing to implement - a belay. Whether a person or device or setup.

Brian:
when I noticed my hand was "getting hot" that wasn't a new relevation for me. What surprised me was how quick it got hot - which meant I was using a lot of friction - which probably led to the muscle spasm/lockup. After I tied off and rested which was when I was close to 1/2 down the 110ft rappel. I continued and got another 20 feet down the rope - PERFECTLY GOOD without slight worry. Next thing, I remember was my hand locking up and I couldn't control it at all and the rope fed right through it as I dropped through the floor. I have never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever experienced any type of sensation like that EVER rappelling. If I did while hiking up to the arch, I would stopped and came back down - no big deal.

So right there, a belayer (or my friend who was taking pictures of me) would of come just a little handy.....

[Brian in SLC]

I suspect it's a subconscious thing - I grip on tightly because of the terror of falling from above my pro on lead, which is irrational because I'd be falling into empty space, and my belayer is competent, and the protection is bomb proof, and I've done it before without incident, and so on.

I dunno. I'm in the "don't fall ever" club. Has served me well for the longer haul.

In a climbing gym near me (but not the one I attend), there's been 20 or so deck falls. So, that whole "belayer is competent" thing might be true, or, not. Ha ha.

And, its not always going to be steep. And the pro isn't always going to be bomber. And, you won't always clip the rope in correctly (back clip, or, clip the tail of the rope in).

A friend was cramping kinda bad the other day at the gym. A reminder to eat something with some electrolytes and drink some fluid prior to the workout seemed to cure the problem.

I'm sure you're getting a training benefit from all that over gripping...

Its all good.

-Brian in SLC

[Brian in SLC]

But in my mind, it would of been a lot of effort and time into so I just went without it.

Have a friend who's been trying to convince me I should use one too. He uses it every time we rappel (climbing). Fast and efficient, and, a great back up. Makes me wonder...


Ever been to the S curve free-rappel up Little Cottonwood (over 65+ feet)?

Never heard of it. Been to the one up Big Cottonwood, though. Just uphill from the Mill B/Broad's Fork trailhead. Ha ha.


So you can't say I'm experienced.

Yeah, lets not say that. Ha ha.


when I noticed my hand was "getting hot" that wasn't a new relevation for me. What surprised me was how quick it got hot - which meant I was using a lot of friction - which probably led to the muscle spasm/lockup.

Sounds like a....hold it...hold it... a new revelation. Or, sorry, a relevation? At elevation? Is relevation just "real elevation"?

Sorry. Just havin' fun.

If your hand in a glove is getting hot at all, ever, and you feel the need for a glove due to that, then you need to maybe re-think your friction and rappel technique.


After I tied off and rested which was when I was close to 1/2 down the 110ft rappel.

If you have to tie off and rest after only 50 feet of a free air rappel...well, that's a concern.


I continued and got another 20 feet down the rope - PERFECTLY GOOD without slight worry. Next thing, I remember was my hand locking up and I couldn't control it at all and the rope fed right through it as I dropped through the floor.

Sometimes, a bunch of little mistakes add up and it only takes a little being dehydrated, a little low on electrolytes and/or food, and, boom, a cramp, at the worst possible time.

Frightening!

Are there lessons to be learned here? I hope so. More, uh, bad rappelling experience isn't going to help...

Just havin' fun mostly. Glad you didn't get hurt much, much worse.

Cheers, and, let us know what that auto speed detecting device is you mentioned earlier.

-Brian in SLC

[jman]

Brian in Hell,

Your humor is like mine. Although, recently when things could of been worse than just breaking 2 bones...I take it a bit personal since I could of easily died. Just saying...

Basically I lucked out when I skimmped out on my own safety and backups. Everyone can relate I'm sure, even the "helmet enforcer" who was caught with his pants down and Ice has a nice picture of him without a helmet on...

Anyways,
It is interesting that Europeans use a lot of 9 to 11mm ropes (obviously different terrain) and as Ice was saying the perceived standard over here is smaller the better (although that's not what women say har har).

Btw, u are correct, Big Cottonwood. U should know that area very well as a climber...haha

[ratagonia]

Emperor of Rats: I do know how to rappel, actually.


You have provided evidence to the contrary.



I have actually done more than just a "few" canyons too. I know my gear as well. People have mentioned using an autoblock. Yup, I could of. But in my mind, it would of been a lot of effort and time into so I just went without it.


But, then again, we all screw up once in a while. A bottom belay has saved my butt more than once. Hope you have a swift and complete recovery.

---

Autoblocs are hard to use. I use one all the time when guiding, have not used one ever when not guiding. Have seen plenty of people use them improperly/ineffectively, who had no clue that what they were doing would not work.

Tom

[sarahlizzy]

Autoblocs are hard to use. I use one all the time when guiding, have not used one ever when not guiding. Have seen plenty of people use them improperly/ineffectively, who had no clue that what they were doing would not work.

I don't like the way my hand feels divorced from the rap rope when using one - it freaks me out quite a lot.

[moab mark]

Since were discussing friction on a single strand heres a different way to rig a pirana. I started using my pirana flipped over to wear the other side. I have always used a carabiner on my leg loop brake side and place the brake strand thru it. If I needed more friction I would just lift up with the brake hand. That can get tiresome if going a long distance. I had tried taking the brake strand up to the hook on the pirana but that was always way to much friction. Since flipping my pirana over now when I take the brake strand up and hook it over the top of the pirana it is not against the hook but the nice sloped angle of the pirana. This allows you to really change friction on that nice slope and not the hook. Works pretty well.

As far as single or double the way I look at it each have pros and cons.

[Brian in SLC]

Although, recently when things could of been worse than just breaking 2 bones...I take it a bit personal since I could of easily died. Just saying...

Still sucks to be hurt. Worth a look see, though, and I appreciate you being so forthcoming with the details.

We don't learn much when everything goes ok.

And, when you share, the whole community can benefit from at least the discussion.


It is interesting that Europeans use a lot of 9 to 11mm ropes (obviously different terrain) and as Ice was saying the perceived standard over here is smaller the better (although that's not what women say har har).

Yeah, for the most part, I think they think we're nuts. Terrain notwithstanding.

They usually don't use ATC type devices either. So, more wide open, like eights or Piranas. They seem to love the big air, too.


Btw, u are correct, Big Cottonwood. U should know that area very well as a climber...haha

Actually, knock on wood, had my last climbing accident there...(upper "scurves"). Was a bunch of time ago, though. 18 years? Yikes.

Anyhoo. I pluck a ton of webbing from time to time off that crag. I've never seen folks up there for just rappelling. Do folks rig for the rappel on the climber's left side (closer to the creek?)? Must have picked up 50 or 60 feet of 1" webbing awhile back. Crazy.

Yeah, there but for the grace go us. We're all tickin' tiime bombs when it comes to this safety stuff. I think that's why some of us pick the accident stuff apart so much. I could totally see blowing a rappel. I just try to be hyper vigilant if possible, but, sometimes....

Cheers, and, let us know how the surgery plays out. You know, gory details and all.

Have you seen Kelly's website? Talks about his recent climbing injury (well, sorta climbing). Good lessons learned. Funny guy, great writer. Kind of adult content, so...

http://kellycordes.wordpress.com/

Scroll down far enough and you'll be psyched for that surgery...! Well, maybe not...

Take care,

-Brian in SLC

[Iceaxe]

Ice Queen:
I was applying the KISS principle as you say. The biner block is VERY easy, not complicated at all. And I'm not a noob as I have numerous times rappelled down this exact same rope tens of times before, and most using a biner block with a contingency anchor.

Jman.... I hope you don't think I'm picking on you, because I'm not.... I just feel there is a flaw in the basic biner block/skinny ropes/single strand system.... why do I feel this way you ask? Because to many "experienced" people are getting hurt.... these accidents/death's should not be happening....

:popcorn:

[sarahlizzy]

Ice Queen:
I was applying the KISS principle as you say. The biner block is VERY easy, not complicated at all. And I'm not a noob as I have numerous times rappelled down this exact same rope tens of times before, and most using a biner block with a contingency anchor.

Jman.... I hope you don't think I'm picking on you, because I'm not.... I just feel there is a flaw in the basic biner block/skinny ropes/single strand system.... why do I feel this way you ask? Because to many "experienced" people are getting hurt.... these accidents/death's should not be happening....


Do you think his hand would have been less likely to spasm if he'd double stranded?

Maybe there's an element of complacency in what you've observed? You get worse road accidents at 90mph, but newbie drivers don't tend to drive that fast.

[Scott Card]

Jman, glad you are in one piece although busted up a bit. Good luck with your recovery. A couple of questions...

Did you have any extra biners, cords or other gear on you (on your gear loops, in your pack, etc.) when you tied off? If so, did you consider adding friction when you tied off or was you mindset just you needed to cool the hand at that time so as to continue on? Curious as to the gear and thoughts at the tie-off point in time. I don't remember what rappel device you were using so I will ask how did you tie off midrappel?

:popcorn:

[Iceaxe]

Do you think his hand would have been less likely to spasm if he'd double stranded?

It's not this ONE accident that makes me think the system is flawed.... it's the consistently high number of accidents involving the same system that leads me to believe the system is flawed. One or two accidents and I'll consider it bad luck.... we are well beyond that number.... and this high accident rate is not occurring with those not using the system....

And I'm not an expert on rappeling or hand spasms.... but hands don't just start spasming for nothing.... maybe the rope was gripped too tight.... which maybe was a result of the ropes being to small or not enough friction.... I'm just guessing.... I wasn't there.... you asked what I thought....

:blahblah:

What I'm also seeing is the old.... "it can't happen to me" syndrome in regards to the issue....

"It only happens to noobs..."
"It won't happen to me... I have this really cool new rappel device...."
"It can't happen to me, I wear a glove..."

Scary when folks start thinking like that.....

:popcorn:

[Brian in SLC]

Do you think his hand would have been less likely to spasm if he'd double stranded?

My bet is the relationship is linear...

Double the pleasure, double the fun.


Maybe there's an element of complacency in what you've observed? You get worse road accidents at 90mph, but newbie drivers don't tend to drive that fast.

Nah, you've failed to take into account the "young, bulletproof male" scenario...

Ha ha.

-Brian in SLC

[Scott Card]

I just feel there is a flaw in the basic biner block/skinny ropes/single strand system.... why do I feel this way you ask? Because to many "experienced" people are getting hurt.... these accidents/death's should not be happening....

:popcorn: I think I know where you are headed with this, Ice. I tend to agree kinda sorta. After all, I am the one responsible for having my group carry 1100 feet of rope through Heaps so as to double strand the last and second to last raps. However, I have used, almost exclusively, the biner block/single strand method for the past couple of years. I use this mostly due to the ability to quickly measure the length of the rappel and not have to coil or bag a bunch of extra rope. Further, it is just easier for me particularly in wet canyons. I remember doing the double rope method in Kolob my first time and I swear I was getting tangled in all the floating rope while unhooking and then afterwords fighting to bag/coil the mess of rope just to throw it for the next rap - 20 feet away. The biner block has made me and my groups much more efficient and quick in the canyon. Soooo very nice to slide off the end of a rope when you touch or splash down rather than have to do a water disconnect. I guess what I am saying is that for me, in most situations, the biner block is K.I.S.S.

That being said, I regularly ask for a belay. If I am first down on a tall rappel, I have back up friction rigged before ever leaning backwards and starting over the edge. I'd much rather feed rope through the rappel device than fry my hand or worse, crater as was mentioned. Just me, I have this fear of hard landings. The knees are getting old. :moses: (Sorry Tom, had to use moses guy here. Don't worry, he is still mostly yours :haha: )

[sarahlizzy]

Maybe there's an element of complacency in what you've observed? You get worse road accidents at 90mph, but newbie drivers don't tend to drive that fast.

Nah, you've failed to take into account the "young, bulletproof male" scenario...


Ah, that's getting into the whole "knowing just enough to be dangerous" scenario. I find I end up second guessing myself massively over that - I mean, it's probably the stage I'm at.

ETA: Although I very much don't regard myself as bulletproof.

[Iceaxe]

Heck.... if half a dozen Toyota's suddenly accelerated at full throttle it would probably be in all the fish wrappers, we would be having government inquiries and the general population might even be suggesting that heads should roll..... err..... Something like that.....

:five:

[Scott Card]

What I'm also seeing is the old.... "it can't happen to me" syndrome in regards to the issue....

"It only happens to noobs..."
"It won't happen to me... I have this really cool new rappel device...."
"It can't happen to me, I wear a glove..."

Scary when folks start thinking like that.....

:popcorn:Amen brother. This is why I like reading this site and the yahoo group. Threads like this keep me thinking and reevaluating my own technique and safety and that of others.

[ratagonia]

I just feel there is a flaw in the basic biner block/skinny ropes/single strand system.... why do I feel this way you ask? Because to many "experienced" people are getting hurt.... these accidents/death's should not be happening....

:popcorn: I think I know where you are headed with this, Ice. I tend to agree kinda sorta. After all, I am the one responsible for having my group carry 1100 feet of rope through Heaps so as to double strand the last and second to last raps. However, I have used, almost exclusively, the biner block/single strand method for the past couple of years. I use this mostly due to the ability to quickly measure the length of the rappel and not have to coil or bag a bunch of extra rope. Further, it is just easier for me particularly in wet canyons. I remember doing the double rope method in Kolob my first time and I swear I was getting tangled in all the floating rope while unhooking and then afterwords fighting to bag/coil the mess of rope just to throw it for the next rap - 20 feet away. The biner block has made me and my groups much more efficient and quick in the canyon. Soooo very nice to slide off the end of a rope when you touch or splash down rather than have to do a water disconnect. I guess what I am saying is that for me, in most situations, the biner block is K.I.S.S.

That being said, I regularly ask for a belay. If I am first down on a tall rappel, I have back up friction rigged before ever leaning backwards and starting over the edge. I'd much rather feed rope through the rappel device than fry my hand or worse, crater as was mentioned. Just me, I have this fear of hard landings. The knees are getting old. :moses: (Sorry Tom, had to use moses guy here. Don't worry, he is still mostly yours :haha: )

Surprisingly, I agree with ICE and BDC - clueless beginners and over-confident noobs should definitely rappel on a double-strand of rope in order not to besmirch the "other technique"... :roflol:

:moses: Tom :moses:

(not including YOU in that Jman, sounds like you had a weird thing happen to you, and got a little banged up. As I said before, could happen to anyone, and it does).

[sarahlizzy]

Heck.... if half a dozen Toyota's suddenly accelerated at full throttle it would probably be in all the fish wrappers, we would be having government inquiries and the general population might even be suggesting that heads should roll..... err..... Something like that.....

Well, I rap single strand *and* I drive a Prius...

What must you think of me? :haha:

[Scott Card]

One more thought to throw in the pile.... In a brief moment of introspection I admit the following: I am much more inclined to be complacent on a stunt rappel than in a canyon. I am more inclined to be complacent at the end of the day than at the beginning. I am much more inclined to be complacent on the last rappel than the first (with the exception of Heaps). I am more inclined to be complacent when I know my mug is being photographed (particularly if I am in a wet suit -- gotta suck in the gut and think finesse and no flailing arms and legs) I am more inclined to be complacent on shorter to mid size raps (less than 100 feet) than longer raps. There is my confession for the day. :popcorn:

[oldno7]

While Shane will opine that SRT is a deathtrap, I will counter and say--
No one has been killed or hurt from a SRT technique that was "PROPERLY" set up. (I'm just talking about the system here)
There have on the other hand, been numerous accident's, maybe even the highest number of accidents, due to loss of control or lack of friction. Those who read about SRT or see it on the internet, at times have no clue why to use SRT in the first place, and along with SRT, comes the requirement of knowing your rappel devices and "easily" being able to add friction mid rappel.
I personally see no reason in Jman's incident to use a single 8mm line. His situation screams--double strand. I rap double strand on 8mm line a lot, when the situation dictates it. I also use single strand 8mm and rig according to the rappel at hand.
I hardly think this incident, as I understand it, is a result of a biner block. It appears to me to be an accident as a result of too little friction on a rappel device, causing the rappeler to squeeze the brake hand so hard as to overheat and burn his hand. I would think the extra force of trying to squeeze the rope hard enough to slow down, also caused the cramping.

So I ask--Jman, why did you set up a block? You were the only person to rappel.

[Brian in SLC]

Well, I rap single strand *and* I drive a Prius...

What must you think of me?

In a country of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

Or, in your case...

My allegory for the day.

-Brian in SLC

[oldno7]

I would also like to add--
Thank God your buddy chickened out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If this would have happened on a simul-rap..........................

[Scott Card]

I would also like to add--
Thank God your buddy chickened out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If this would have happened on a simul-rap.......................... :nod: :nod:

[ratagonia]

Well, I rap single strand *and* I drive a Prius...

What must you think of me?

In a country of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

Or, in your case...

My allegory for the day.

-Brian in SLC

Nothing personal, Sarah Lizzy. Brian and Shane beat this corpse-of-a-horse every time the opportunity presents. Mostly for sport, I think...

:moses:

[sarahlizzy]

Nothing personal, Sarah Lizzy. Brian and Shane beat this corpse-of-a-horse every time the opportunity presents. Mostly for sport, I think...


Heh. No worries - I've got a pretty thick skin and you've all spent longer doing this stuff than I ever will. I'm mostly happy if I'm competent (and lucky) enough to avoid becoming a statistic on either side of this debate!

[moabmatt]

I'm curious what your non-brake hand was doing at the time you lost control? I don't suppose it was spasming, too?

It seems every time I hear of someone complaining about lack of friction their non-brake hand is uselessly holding the rope above their rappel device getting burned. When I want additional friction I'll grab both the carabiner and rope (below the rappel device) with my non-brake hand and press the rope into the carabiner. This creates quite a bit of friction, usually more than my original brake hand creates.

[moab mark]

Heck.... if half a dozen Toyota's suddenly accelerated at full throttle it would probably be in all the fish wrappers, we would be having government inquiries and the general population might even be suggesting that heads should roll..... err..... Something like that.....

Well, I rap single strand *and* I drive a Prius...

What must you think of me? :haha:

Sinlge strand is the least of your problems. :roflol:

[moab mark]

Any of you that have been on top of this arch know why his buddy turned back. It gives me the heee beee jeeeebbeees. Been there once rappeled off once and not goin back.

[Udink]

Maybe there's an element of complacency in what you've observed? You get worse road accidents at 90mph, but newbie drivers don't tend to drive that fast.

Nah, you've failed to take into account the "young, bulletproof male" scenario...

Indeed. I know firsthand that the top speed of a Yugo filled with four ~200-pound 16-year-olds is 96 miles per hour.

[ratagonia]

Any of you that have been on top of this arch know why his buddy turned back. It gives me the heee beee jeeeebbeees. Been there once rappeled off once and not goin back.

And there's bolts up there, apparantly???

:moses:

[Iceaxe]

Nothing personal, Sarah Lizzy. Brian and Shane beat this corpse-of-a-horse every time the opportunity presents. Mostly for sport, I think...

Chicken and egg deal.... which came first???

Do we talk about this so often for sport.... or do we talk about this so often because of the high number of accidents????

Just askin'.... :ne_nau:

and FWIW.... I think biner blocks, skinny ropes and single strand rope are all great tools.... maybe we just need to review the combination?

I mean really... a lawn mower is a great tool.... but not for trimming the hedge...

http://www.craneblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Lawn-mower-crane-hedge-trim.jpg

[jman]

When I was up there, there are two bolts with chains that are used as the primary rappelling ones. And then there are 4-5 other bolts just on south of it, maybe a 1-2ft away (I imagine for multiple rappellers).

My left hand was free and was just dangling until I got past the bottom of the arch and was free-hanging. Then I didn't apply enough friction on the rope and had a tie a mule knot to let my hand glove cool down (way too hot!)

From there I let go of the mule knot and continued on another 20 feet (without any problem or hesitation or worry, etc.) by just using my brake (right) hand, while my left hand was still dangling and waving in my pictures. And I wasn't going fast at all (just a slow, non-jerky, non-bouncy, "normal-rappelling speed"), when I pulled the mule knot. Then in a instant, just like that, that's when my hand just "gave up". It's so hard to explain what it felt like since I have never ever ever ever had that happen before.

And before I knew it, I was on the ground. Yes, Matt, I could of used my left hand to grab the rope and that would of saved me. But when you are freefalling to your death (that's what I thought) you are not in the best mentally reactive state...at least I figured that out. You might you be better at that than me...I dunno...You can tell me when you do have that experience.

Yea, oldno, if we did a simul-rap and both of us would of went down and we both got hurt - it would of been a long......long.........long...........long.......v ery painful........ excruciatingly painful....very cold dark night.

And not to mention, that when you break your hand or ankle, you have to be very wary of condition called "compartment sydrome". It's when the blood from the swelling goes into your tissues (because it has no room to expand) and those tissues die within minutes - which leads to amputation, if there is no treatment (they basically filet the organ or area to drain the blood) within 20 minutes.

It's a good thing I remembered that fact, and kept my shoes and socks on when Ian was doing a rapid assessment on me. The socks and shoes probably kept the swelling reduced...otherwise it would probably led to both feet or legs amputated. SCARY!

All I can say, is remember the transition and speed of descent when you transition from wall to free-rappel. Much different (unless you are super anorexic and amazingly skinny than you don't need to worry so much, but a fat man like me (190lbs) needs to remember it! Apparently, I forgot that for a second until I slowed myself down to let my glove cool down.

And, I broke #1 rule of rappelling, belay. That's what it comes down to.

I have plenty of experience, and as someone was mentioning above, I probably fit into the category of "I know everything and have enough experience that "nothing bad will happen to me" "...yeah right, If only I can see the future!!

Well, thanks for the well-wishs, as I have now re-read your posts and see that you don't mean it personally (I would think so). But I have an Ortho appt on Monday and possibly surgery next week. I'll keep ya up to date on it.

Oh, I'll try and get more pictures up.

[jman]

Brian in Africa,

Yup, that was the device he was referring to. The Redpoint descender. Since I'm not a rock-climber (although I do a little bouldering) I have never heard of this.

You are right....they sound kinda iffy. But apparently my step-brother uses it and has worked "every" time. who knows....

They look like a hassle to bring...but even if it prevented me from catering, it would be worth it I suppose...I dunno. Not my specialty.

[Cirrus2000]

Wow, jman, hope you're better soon! That's pretty spooky.

I, too, was interested in the left hand. I always wonder why people don't use that hand. I mean, waving is good, and using it to manoeuvre past an obstacle or over a lip is great. But most of the time, guess what it is - it's a backup, as much as any other type of equipment. And if your backup is nowhere near the useful part of the rope (the brake side), then what the heck use is it? Plus, its location closer to the rappel device makes it even more effective to stop and lock, when using an ATC type device. Jam the rope right up against the HMS or belay loop - maximum braking on the device - you're halfway to a mule. Any photo of me rapping, if I'm not locked off, or working onto the rappel, over a lip, etc., both hands are in a useful braking position.

Speaking of the left hand (for the right-handed folks, anyway), as an aside, I figure there's only one place worse for the free hand than swinging around uselessly - and that's having it holding the rope above the rappel device, on the anchor side. What the hell use is that? Anyone that I'm teaching to rappel, I instruct not to hold onto that rope. The natural reaction, when having trouble on a rappel, is to panic and try to grip that ever tighter - that's where the anchor is, that's where safety is! If you're losing friction on a rappel, you have to lock the rope off somehow, not batman down from above your belay device. Anybody have any thoughts on that? Am I out to lunch (considering the number of people who keep one hand above and one hand below their device?)



Oh - and Udink: a Yugo?!? I'm amazed that it held 4x 200-pounders, and drove at all.

[ratagonia]

And, I broke #1 rule of rappelling, belay. That's what it comes down to.


Um, maybe I number them differently...

Rule #1 is set up your rappel device so it has the 'right friction', and does not require Hulkian hand-strength to control your rappel.

Somewhere down the line is have a belay if it seems appropriate. Certainly having a belay is more important than getting the video.

Tom :moses:

[oldno7]

I want to say thanks to Jman for posting up on his close call.
We all learn from this. And I believe it can potentially happen to anyone.

[bruce from bryce]

In all sports that I've participated in I've found that I lose a lot of water and have to consciously ensure that I replace those electrolytes. When getting ready to do a canyon I now will drink a liter of gatorade prior to beginning and ensure that I stay on top the loss by drinking regularly in the canyon. I also carry those little Cliff Shot Blocks to chew on. Now the problem.

After bagging the rope one or two times I will start to experience cramps in my hands which make it difficult if not impossible to get the rope in the bag. As of yet I have not experience cramps in my hands while on rappel but I am cognicent of that possiblity (but if they cramp up really bad my hand will grip the rope really well -- I think).

I always ask for a bottom belay on anything over 100'. Just this week in Icebox in Red Rock I asked for one on the last rappel, mainly since I had never been in a waterfall before and had no idea on what it would be like. Neoprene glove worked fine and for backup I had my no-brake hand crossed over and lightly gripping the rope also.

Know yourself; know the danger signs; know the remedies!

bruce from bryce

[moab mark]

I want to say thanks to Jman for posting up on his close call.
We all learn from this. And I believe it can potentially happen to anyone.

X 2 hope you all goes well with the Doc.

As Tom asked and Jman stated there is a bolt garden at the top of the arch. I was in Gearheads one day and asked the guy behind the counter why there were so many bolts. The story he told me was several years ago marlboro filmed an adventure ad at Corona. Corona Arch runs 90 degs to the wall you walk along to get on top of it. He said they sunk all those bolts because they rigged ropes and then went over on the wall and jumped off and swung thru the arch and filmed it for a cig ad? Have no idea whether true or not, maybe somebody else knows the history of the bolts but there are a bunch up there.

If you really like stunt rappels in Moab head down and rappel thru the hole/arch of looking glass rock. It's been so long ago but I think there are bolts there also?

Mark

[Iceaxe]

When I was up there, there are two bolts with chains that are used as the primary rappelling ones. And then there are 4-5 other bolts just on south of it, maybe a 1-2ft away (I imagine for multiple rappellers).

I was told some of the industrial strength bolts on top of Corona were from filming crews doing commercials. I used to even know the commercials but can't remember them right now.... seems like one might have been for Jeep..... Moab Matt probably knows...



I want to say thanks to Jman for posting up on his close call.
We all learn from this. And I believe it can potentially happen to anyone.

x2

:2thumbs:

[canyoncaver]

First of all, thanks to the OP for sharing so that others can learn. Also, very glad to hear that you survived what must have been a terrifying incident.

Unfortunately the analysis of this incident is leading some of you into incorrect and very unfortunate conclusions. This incident is not the result of skinny rope, biner blocks, single strand, or lack of belay. This incident is an out-of-control rappel that resulted from an inappropriate descender. The ATC was plain and simple not able to provide enough friction.

Someone can correct me if they think I'm wrong, but the ATC was never meant for this type of rappelling. I do not understand how anyone could think it appropriate to rappel an ATC single-strand on 8 or even 9mm free-hanging rope.

There are many devices that would be more appropriate including rappel rack, bobbin, SRTE, figure eight...hell, even a munter hitch would provide more friction. ATC seems like a bottom of the barrel choice for this application.

I think Brian should amend his mantra to read "single-strand, biner-blocked, skinny rope is not appropriate...WHEN USING AN ATC" Biner-blocked skinny rope is fine and dandy when you and your rappel device can handle it.

Bottom belays and autoblocks are not the answer. They are band-aid measures that must be applied when people insist on using tube devices on single rope.

[Scott Card]

Let me add a bit of a counter point, although not altogether on point. I find the ATC-XP highly effective with single 8mm ropes. Add a biner and I am golden in Heaps. :2thumbs:

[jman]

First of all, thanks to the OP for sharing so that others can learn. Also, very glad to hear that you survived what must have been a terrifying incident.

Unfortunately the analysis of this incident is leading some of you into incorrect and very unfortunate conclusions. This incident is not the result of skinny rope, biner blocks, single strand, or lack of belay. This incident is an out-of-control rappel that resulted from an inappropriate descender. The ATC was plain and simple not able to provide enough friction.

Someone can correct me if they think I'm wrong, but the ATC was never meant for this type of rappelling. I do not understand how anyone could think it appropriate to rappel an ATC single-strand on 8 or even 9mm free-hanging rope.

There are many devices that would be more appropriate including rappel rack, bobbin, SRTE, figure eight...hell, even a munter hitch would provide more friction. ATC seems like a bottom of the barrel choice for this application.

I think Brian should amend his mantra to read "single-strand, biner-blocked, skinny rope is not appropriate...WHEN USING AN ATC" Biner-blocked skinny rope is fine and dandy when you and your rappel device can handle it.

Bottom belays and autoblocks are not the answer. They are band-aid measures that must be applied when people insist on using tube devices on single rope.

I understand what you are saying. Although, I have never had a problem with friction before. Really, I haven't. Even on a skinny 8.3mm.

I will agree that the ATC is not necessarily the best descender on a free-hang. I probably should of switched to another descender but I didn't.
I have always been super comfortable with the ATCs, even in Class C canyons.

Again, just to clarify there was no problems with the anchoring system or knots, etc. It was a freak accident with my hand locking up, and the small things adding up to the crash (could of used different ATC, no belay (as he was taking pictures, etc.)

I'm very thankful as it could of been a LOT worse. Complacency mixed in with a freak accident, contributed to this. And to think if I didn't wear a helmet (or even a backpack as it protected by back)...SCARY!



Anyways, on to the update:
Just saw Dr. Goucher at MckayDee Hospital around noon and they removed the splints. The swelling has died down a bit, and discoloration (bruising) has mostly gone away. The left ankle is still VERY swollen and so they won't be able to operate on it till next week on Thursday (otherwise, it would be this week).

The boot two boots/shoes on and it feels great to get some air to them and I can finally itch it too!!

The Dr. was saying that the right ankle should be walkable within a month, and the left ankle could take 3-5months depending on the outcome of surgery and how fast I heal, etc.

BTW - the nurses for his office are SUPER HOT! and they are close to my age (26). goodness gracious!



Let me add a bit of a counter point, although not altogether on point. I find the ATC-XP highly effective with single 8mm ropes. Add a biner and I am golden in Heaps. :2thumbs:

That's the ATC I use and on the friction or teeth side and I'm good to go. Although, I use a bit more friction in Heaps or Imlay....that's for sure!! haha...

[ratagonia]

Someone can correct me if they think I'm wrong, but the ATC was never meant for this type of rappelling. I do not understand how anyone could think it appropriate to rappel an ATC single-strand on 8 or even 9mm free-hanging rope.


That sounds like a job for me!!!! :moses:

Yeah, you're wrong. :duel:

OK, yes, the ATC (plain vanilla) was designed around 10.5mm climbing ropes. The ATC-XP was designed for smaller ice climbing ropes like 8s and 9s, including belaying a single line 8mm, so Yes, the ATC-XP was designed for rappelling like this, kinda sorta.

It is certainly possible for Jman to get the correct amount of friction using several biners and a regular ATC for this free rappel. Obviously he did not do so in this case.

A stiff static 9mm canyoneering or caving rope is about equivalent in speed to a soft (normal) 10mm climbing rope - so VERY appropriate for an ATC (plain vanilla) on a free rappel.

Again, the problem is not the device. The problem is experience in setting up the device for the 'right' amount of friction in the situation. Easier with some devices than others, but possible with almost anything.

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

BTW - the nurses for his office are SUPER HOT! and they are close to my age (26). goodness gracious!


And you give us pictures of some dude's ankles?????

T

[ratagonia]

I understand what you are saying. Although, I have never had a problem with friction before. Really, I haven't. Even on a skinny 8.3mm.


People have different styles of how much friction they like. I imagine you like the rappel relatively "loose", which requires substantial hand strength to control well (leading to hand fatigue on long raps). I prefer having it "fairly tight" such that it takes very little control pressure.

The later style is a bit more forgiving.

Tom

[jman]

It is certainly possible for Jman to get the correct amount of friction using several biners and a regular ATC for this free rappel. Obviously he did not do so in this case.

Tom :moses:

I used a ATC-XP on teeth/friction side, and leg carabiner, and pigskin gloves (fairly common for most rappels). I could of used a different descender with more friction, but in my book now, a belayer on a free-hang rappel is mandatory - absolutely required. Although, I'm not saying it's the belayers fault in this one, but it would of saved me from crashing. And if my hand didn't lock up on me, I would descended the arch (for my 5th time) without a hitch, and this incident wouldn't have happened...

[jman]

BTW - the nurses for his office are SUPER HOT! and they are close to my age (26). goodness gracious!


And you give us pictures of some dude's ankles?????

T


indeed! that's for the next visit! especially, the receptionist, a very cute blonde. man....

[jman]

I understand what you are saying. Although, I have never had a problem with friction before. Really, I haven't. Even on a skinny 8.3mm.


People have different styles of how much friction they like. I imagine you like the rappel relatively "loose", which requires substantial hand strength to control well (leading to hand fatigue on long raps). I prefer having it "fairly tight" such that it takes very little control pressure.

The later style is a bit more forgiving.

Tom

That is mostly true, yes. And I do have good hand strength - perhaps overexertion led to the hand lockup.

Although, at the very least, this incident has taught me (and those I go with) to use a bit more friction on rappels. Even if they are almost feeding it through their descender, it's better than the end-result like with me - hence what you said made me LOL - "the later style is a bit more forgiving."

[Brian in SLC]

The ATC was plain and simple not able to provide enough friction.

Someone can correct me if they think I'm wrong, but the ATC was never meant for this type of rappelling.

I'm with Tom, BD and Petzl for that matter, as they have a similar devices. So does Camp, Kong, and vitually every other belay/rappel device manufacterer.

Folks climb on twins and doubles all the time. And, these devices are fully capable of providing enough friction IF RIGGED PROPERLY.

In fact, from the BD website, for the ATC-Sport, which can only be rigged on a single cord at at time (single slot, not dual):

"Dual friction modes, handles ropes 7.7 to 11 mm"

Would I rappel single strand on an 8mm rope on a free air rappel, with a single ATC in what I'd call "standard" mode (just a single biner on the belay loop)? Goodness no.

Have I rappelled on a single 8, out of Heaps, say? Yeah. Two ATCs, one on the belay loop, one on a sling above the belay loop, in series, perfect friction for me, with leg biners ready if need be, and another for a redirect on top if need be.

Also done back to back 300 foot rappels, mostly free air, on a fairly skinny cord (out of Birch Creek in Zion). Single ATC, multi biners on the belay loop, munter hitch on the leg loop. Works.

Have also rappeled 6mm a number of times, but, wouldn't recommend it and no need to further discuss that...(ha ha).

Gobs of ways to rig ATC's. They're not the wrong device, but, another tool. Simple and functional as both a belay device and rappel device.

I think a glove is a great back up, but, as mentioned before, it doesn't help with the friction the system should be seeing. I rarely use one for long rappels. If you dial in the friction, they just aren't needed. In fact, a glove may fool you into thinking you have great friction in your system, that is, until your hand finally cramps up...

You really gain a TON of friction when you rappel double strand. Geez, I wonder if the relationship is linear... Two ropes = double the friction?

I'll add a biner or two if I'm on a super steep or free rappel on double 7.6mm's. Ditto if single on a 8.9mm rope on a steep rappel. That's usually adequate for me.

Everyone needs to figure out what works for them. Based on body size, terrain, experience, personal likes, etc. Its rare there's a one size fits all, especially for rappelling.

And, in case you drop whatever rig you're using, a biner brake or three is smooth as silk, and, doesn't twist the ropes. Take care on multiple rappels to not drop the biner brakes...(everyone learns this the hard way).

For wet, fat ropes, I really like the Pirana...single strand, or whatever.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[Sombeech]

note to self:
Never announce a mistake made whilst rappelling.

[ratagonia]

I'm with Tom, BD and Petzl for that matter, as they have a similar devices. So does Camp, Kong, and vitually every other belay/rappel device manufacterer.

...

-Brian in SLC

:eek2: Note for statisticians: a point of agreement between Brian and Tom, so EARLY in the year. We might even get 2 or 3 this year!!!

Tom :five:

[jman]

note to self:
Never announce a mistake made whilst rappelling.

haha, yea learned my lesson about that...

[moabmatt]

I used a ATC-XP on teeth/friction side, and leg carabiner, and pigskin gloves (fairly common for most rappels). I could of used a different descender with more friction, but in my book now, a belayer on a free-hang rappel is mandatory - absolutely required. Although, I'm not saying it's the belayers fault in this one, but it would of saved me from crashing.

Be careful with relying on a bottom belayer to save you, especially while using a leg carabiner. Your upward braking motion will conflict with the belayer's downward pull. If you're not able to control yourself with a leg 'biner, it's unlikely your belayer will be able to control you without it.

[Cirrus2000]

jman, I really miss your gum chewing avatar chick. This one is much less... hypnotic.

[moab mark]

jman, I really miss your gum chewing avatar chick. This one is much less... hypnotic.

X 2 :nod:

[Pelon1]

jman, I really miss your gum chewing avatar chick. This one is much less... hypnotic.
It was hard not to stare at it for just a moment (everytime!)

x3

[Cirrus2000]

x3
( :haha: )

[jman]

Looks like everyone is unanimous - haha, I'll bring her back tomorrow morning.

[canyoncaver]

Well, I guess I knew what I was getting into criticizing the ATC around this crowd! :2gun:

However, I still maintain that there are more appropriate devices out there. Devices that provide more friction on their own, without adding carabiners, and without using two devices in tandem. By adding carabiners and doubling up ATC's, you are actually agreeing with me that the ATC doesn't provide enough friction on its own for long free-hanging drops.

I understand that many of you do just fine with ATCs on single rope. Great. I'm happy for you. But please understand that it is not the best option for some people. For example, I weigh nearly 200 lbs. Once you add a pack to that, I find that even doubled 9mm climbing rope through an ATC is too fast for my liking. I end up having to use a lot of hand strength, and have experienced hand cramps like jman describes, even on drops of <50ft.

When you have a device that you trust to provide enough friction, I'm not sure you would still insist that bottom belays are mandatory for free-hanging rappels. Free-hanging rappels are done safely all the time without them. In many situations, (thinking mostly of caving here) there is no safe place for a bottom belayer to be. Hanging out below a drop while someone rappels is not always a genius idea. I'm not suggesting that you never use a bottom belay, just that they are not always possible and shouldn't always be required.

[Bo_Beck]

Well, I guess I knew what I was getting into criticizing the ATC around this crowd! :2gun:

However, I still maintain that there are more appropriate devices out there. Devices that provide more friction on their own, without adding carabiners, and without using two devices in tandem. By adding carabiners and doubling up ATC's, you are actually agreeing with me that the ATC doesn't provide enough friction on its own for long free-hanging drops.

I understand that many of you do just fine with ATCs on single rope. Great. I'm happy for you. But please understand that it is not the best option for some people. For example, I weigh nearly 200 lbs. Once you add a pack to that, I find that even doubled 9mm climbing rope through an ATC is too fast for my liking. I end up having to use a lot of hand strength, and have experienced hand cramps like jman describes, even on drops of <50ft.

When you have a device that you trust to provide enough friction, I'm not sure you would still insist that bottom belays are mandatory for free-hanging rappels. Free-hanging rappels are done safely all the time without them. In many situations, (thinking mostly of caving here) there is no safe place for a bottom belayer to be. Hanging out below a drop while someone rappels is not always a genius idea. I'm not suggesting that you never use a bottom belay, just that they are not always possible and shouldn't always be required.

Might try one of these devices! I've used it, and really like it. I've used the stainless version, but am about ready to order the titanium version.

http://www.conterra-inc.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=37

[Brian in SLC]

However, I still maintain that there are more appropriate devices out there. Devices that provide more friction on their own, without adding carabiners, and without using two devices in tandem. By adding carabiners and doubling up ATC's, you are actually agreeing with me that the ATC doesn't provide enough friction on its own for long free-hanging drops.


Concur on the bottom belay. I think a "proactive" top belay, versus a "reactive" bottom belay is much better. IMHO.

Onto the devices...

Ok, like what? A rappel rack?

A rack is sweet, but, only good for one purpose. And, for most folks' money, two ATC's is much cheaper and more functional than one rack. Lighter usually too. Easier to get replacement parts for (just buy another one). Rather than hoping where ever you're buying your replacement bars from are still out there (and they haven't discontinued that size device).

For fun, I took a CMI mini firefly and dremelled the bar so I can actually take it on and off a rope. Light, compact. Works pretty sweet, but, the bars are aluminum and wear very quickly, especially in any kind of sandstone (ala So. Utar) environment. Geez, can I get new bars?

So, tell us what devices, including racks, which would be your choice for single strand, say, 8.3mm rope on a free hanging rappel. Edjumacate us!

Bo, that Scarab is cool looking! Wicked spendy, though. Ti? Yikes. 250 retail? Eeeouch! That's 10 or more ATC-XP's...

Anyhoo, fun stuff. Ok, as fun as rappelling can be I suppose (har har).

-Brian in SLC

[Felicia]

Looks like everyone is unanimous - haha, I'll bring her back tomorrow morning.

Yeah - she is back! :five: I really disliked the other one - too gross for me.

Very glad to hear that you are ok. :2thumbs:

Thanks for sharing - I know that it may be difficult at times, but I have learned a couple of things because of this tread. I've also had some good personal debates with others about rigging, devices and friction. Thanks.

I hope that you only broke bones and do not have ligament damage - good luck with the surgery. Remember: toes above nose. :mrgreen:

:rockon:

[theking648]

jman Im glad your ok... and thank you for the post. not for learning lessons but for sparking a fire.

i wish i could quote all the post but..

http://vksempireofdirt.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/kelso-burn.jpg

yep there we're some good ones. :lol8:

[Iceaxe]

For jman.....

"Bones heal, chicks dig scars, pain is temporary, glory is forever." - Evil Knievel

"Bones heal, chicks dig scars, and America has the best Doctor to Daredevil ratio in the world." - Captain Lance Murdoch

:popcorn:

[ratagonia]

Well, I guess I knew what I was getting into criticizing the ATC around this crowd! :2gun:

However, I still maintain that there are more appropriate devices out there. Devices that provide more friction on their own, without adding carabiners, and without using two devices in tandem. By adding carabiners and doubling up ATC's, you are actually agreeing with me that the ATC doesn't provide enough friction on its own for long free-hanging drops.

I understand that many of you do just fine with ATCs on single rope. Great. I'm happy for you. But please understand that it is not the best option for some people. For example, I weigh nearly 200 lbs. Once you add a pack to that, I find that even doubled 9mm climbing rope through an ATC is too fast for my liking. I end up having to use a lot of hand strength, and have experienced hand cramps like jman describes, even on drops of <50ft.

When you have a device that you trust to provide enough friction, I'm not sure you would still insist that bottom belays are mandatory for free-hanging rappels. Free-hanging rappels are done safely all the time without them. In many situations, (thinking mostly of caving here) there is no safe place for a bottom belayer to be. Hanging out below a drop while someone rappels is not always a genius idea. I'm not suggesting that you never use a bottom belay, just that they are not always possible and shouldn't always be required.

You mean, you want something that is automatic-level easy to use, fits lots of different ropes on lots of different sizes, is inexpensive, doesn't weigh much, looks snazzy, easy and fast to rig and de-rig, chicks dig it, dhudes dig it, ... etc.? Not gonna happen.

ATC-XP is great. But, you have to buy these accessory parts, called 'carabiners', that work with it to help adapt to different ropes/weights/conditions. Funny, I already seemed to own a whole bunch of the accessory parts and, funny, I already carry them with me in the canyon. YES, there is stuff to know and figure out, and if you don't you might end up hitting the ground and breaking your ankle and STILL feeling lucky. What's your point?

No device is 'ultra-versatile' - each has their good and bad points. Personally, I use a Pirana most of the time, but an ATC a fair amount. You can get a wide range of friction on an ATC without too much fiddling. Bueno.

Tom :moses:

ps for those of you keeping score, I agreed with Brian, AGAIN. Uh oh, soon goats will be marrying hedgehogs - watchout!!!

[bruce from bryce]

A few years back I had the pleasure of attending a pothole escape training day with Tom Jones, which ended in a 400 foot descent of the Hidden Canyon wall. I remember attempting to determine what was best for each of the participants for the descent, of which about 260' was going to be free.

I believe in the first section we tried to use two devices but found that we could not move much at all since we were using a 600 foot rope (I don't remember what the rope size was). Too much friction so this ideas was discarded!

The second section we worked on stopping our descent and adding extra friction and boy was that work. Every try to lift a 600 foot rope that has gotten wet? On rappel?

Finally in the third section each of us chose the method we were to use and tried to perfect its usage on that rappel.

Then it was on to the rappel itself, which was awesome. Fortunately everyone made it down safely ending a mostly successful day.

Now what am I going to use for the final rap in Heaps this summer? Not sure yet but will be trying out a couple of setups next month during a descent of Ice Cube in LV.

Get well man, wish you were able to join us for 'The Cube'.

[canyoncaver]

You mean, you want something that is automatic-level easy to use, fits lots of different ropes on lots of different sizes, is inexpensive, doesn't weigh much, looks snazzy, easy and fast to rig and de-rig, chicks dig it, dhudes dig it, ... etc.?

Nah, you're reading a lot of things in here. The only criteria you listed that really seem important to me would be the fits different size ropes, easy to rig, and chicks dig it. The others, not so much.


ATC-XP is great. But, you have to buy these accessory parts, called 'carabiners', that work with it to help adapt to different ropes/weights/conditions. Funny, I already seemed to own a whole bunch of the accessory parts and, funny, I already carry them with me in the canyon. YES, there is stuff to know and figure out, and if you don't you might end up hitting the ground and breaking your ankle and STILL feeling lucky. What's your point?


My point is that this is not the first time we've heard about someone cratering while using an ATC single-roped. Using facts-based analysis, this points me toward the conclusion that perhaps the ATC is not the best device for this particular application.

However, it has become quite clear to me that in large part the American canyoneering community disagrees with this conclusion. They disagree to the extent that they would rather add several carabiners for friction than switch to a different device. Also, while these ATC extra-friction techniques are widely known, some continue to not use them. Some of these people continue to crater. To this I say: To each his own and happy rappelling!

If you are happy with your ATC, then great. If you are not, and find that you have to use hand-cramping force to slow yourself (as I do), then you may want to check out a different device. A mini-rappel rack, bobbin, or any of the specialty eights including Piranas and Totems might work better for you. These all adapt to different ropes/weights/conditions without a z-rig of carabiners. If you rig single-rope, especially on long free drops, you might be happier with something besides a tube device.

When I use an ATC, I have to work hard with my brake hand. With the other listed devices, I do not. When working hard with your brake hand for hundreds of feet, your hand might tire or cramp, and this could cause you to fall.

That is all.

[Jaxx]

That sucks you might miss the summer. Atleast you will be ready for fall season (5 months max recovery). I would also thank you for sharing. It sucks to be picked on but I have really learned some good pointers here.

I would like to contribute to the ATC argument. I am too girlish to admit my weight online but with a pack on I weigh well over 250 lbs. I have never had a problem with the atc guide. If the rap is overhanging then I will put two biners on for the rope to go around. I have attached a picture so I can try out the new bogley attach feature!
32719

[RedRoxx]

This is a great place to practice---from Wickipedia--

The Cave of Swallows, also called Cave of the Swallows (Spanish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language): [I][B]S

[jman]

Thanks everyone!

Just a update for today:

I had surgery on Thursday at the Surgical Center in Ogden. I arrived at 7am and I was first in line. I filled out all the paper work, was told about anesthesia and got a bit nervous. They said they would intubate me as well. They stuck a IV in me for fluids as well as a antibiotic. Then the Nurse pulled up my left ankle and put it on a soft cloth and used a razor to shave up to my shins. Then I just sat around for an hour.

Finally, they wheel me into the back room of the surgery rooms around 9am. The room was very spacious, had lots of tvs, and the radio semi-loud blasting Ozzy Osbourn Crazy Train! I was psyched and ready to get this surgery over. My pain level at this time was about 1/10 - very, very, very manageable.

They next injected Propofol (what Michael Jackson OD'ed and died on) and I was out with in 5 minutes. The actual surgery consisted of a few procedures. First, they would have two holes on the front of the ankle for the scope. Then they would make an incision on the lateral side of the ankle. Next, because of the location of the fractures, they would need to cut the Fibula and push it to the side. From there they would rewire the broken bone fragments into my talus and sew me back up and put on a brace and screw it into my fibula to stabilize it.

The next thing I remember is waking up and screaming in PAIN!! The actually surgery took about 2 1/2 hours and I looked down at my leg and it had a splint and I was wearing a pain pump (a local anesthetic that numbs all of the nerve endings but doesn't work too well - it just removes the edge of the pain). My ankle was in so much pain! I have never ever ever felt that kind of pain before. The surgery and recovery hurt 10x more than the actually fall did!

Because of the anesthesia I was a little bit nauseous and light-headed. After about 10mins of groaning to myself because of the pain, finally a nurse came back and gave me a cocktail of two percosets, a morphine drip, and 1 or 2 ibuprofens for the swelling. I was maxed out on pain meds and my perception of pain was a 9/10!!!!

It hurt sooo bad. The pain just increased more and more and soon it became so unbearable that the only thing my body could do to cope with the pain was hyperventilate. I was trying to calm myself but the pain was so unbearable, after hyperventilating for over a minute, I then just wept like a hurt baby for over 10minutes. I was balling and crying so loud. I could NOT DEAL with the pain...it hurt so bad. (And I'm person who never cries. I once fell off a 2-story house when I was 14yrs-old and fell head first and didn't cry when I landed as I landed on my back and arms...but that's a story within itself).

My wailing and crying was so bad, that a nurse came in and told me "get a hold of myself" and that I was "scaring the other patients" and "just deal with the pain". I was in shock! I couldn't believe she said those things. It's like telling a mother who is birthing to be quiet cause she's to loud. Or telling a soldier who just got shot 4 times in the body to "deal with the pain" and "be quiet". Man...the audacity of some people...I swear.

I was in too much pain to say anything to her, so I just let it go. After I stopped crying, I said a prayer asking for a little pain relief. And within a instant my leg pain was much more tolerable. After another 1hr of observation and doing final tests, all the while I'm massaging my leg and asking the Doctor more questions about the surgery - they finally released me!

My dad brought his truck and loaded me into it and it was very uncomfortable since I couldn't lay down. After 30 minutes of driving we hit my Mom's house and everyone helped me into the house and laid me down on my bed.

And that's where I have been ever since...

Thankfully with the percoset and pain pump, my pain perception has been about a 5/10 rising up to a 7/10 in the mornings. And I've been super spoiled with friends coming over for long periods of time, and family being around playing board games and videogames and watching movies, etc. Everyone has been so accomodating and super helpful. I'm very humble to have all of their help, and to realize that I'm fortunate to be in "this" pain as it could of been so much worse...I can't even imagine.

I have an appt this week for a followup and to remove the pain pump (they leave it for a short amount of time, due to worry about infection). I asked my Doctor how long the recovery process would last - and he said that I should be walking on within 2-3 months! And 3 weeks later after the accident - my right foot and ankle are nearly 100% healed. I can walk on it without pain, there is no more bruising and swelling, and I can put my full weight on it without complaint. Go body!

And Thanks to everyone here for their kind wishes and sympathy! and hopefully by me sharing this experience - you can learn from my mistakes.

[Felicia]

Great to hear that the surgery went well. :clap: How is the swelling?

Take the time to recover properly. You have the rest of your life to walk, if you do not take the time now, you will walk incorrectly for the rest of your life. :nod:

Remember - toes above nose. :cripple:

[ststephen]

Best wishes to you jman for a full recuperation. F-ing doctors and nurses and their "just deal with it" attitudes really get me riled. I understand wanting to keep people in chronic pain from being dependent. But you have a very temporary condition that could absolutely be made to be 100% comfortable. WTF! Maybe I'm missing some important reason to deny you something stronger like Morphine but I don't get it.

[bruce from bryce]

Iceman's post #8, Patrick Depallier death at Hockenheim brought back memories for me. I used drive from my workplace at heidelberg airfield over to the exact same location for my lunch. many times there would be Formula 1 teams practicing there in cars with no paint on them so it was difficult to know who was driving. I also saw the horrific crash at Monza in 1978, when Richie Peterson survived the crash at the first turn at the start of the race only to die of a blood clot in his leg while recovering in the hospital. Ayrton Senna dying in a crash that seemed so benign and the great Gilles Villeneuve in a crash that no one saw. Many great moments in the sport but at the speeds they attained it was only inevitable that someone would die almost yearly.

[Iceaxe]

Jaman... this might be the type of devise your mom was talking about. To rappel on the ClipUp it looks like you would have a deadman's throttle (let go of the throttle and it locks up).

ClipUp
http://gearjunkie.com/click-up-belay-device

32975



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha3918grz1s

[oval]

Hehe, such debate over the perfect device!

I've gone back and forth on the "perfect" belay device for canyoneering. I don't think there is one. Personally, I like either an 8 (to keep wear off my biners) or a steel atc-xp (see dmm's V-twin device... weighs only about 1oz more than an aluminum BD atc-xp) with a steel biner.

Honestly though, if you are tackling a nasty, big, long, wet, free-hanging rappel with a lot of weight on a thin, single strand rope, you really shouldn't exclude the MUNTER HITCH. It's amazing how much control this gives you. Does it twist the rope? Moreso if you don't hold the strands in parrallel vs holding the break end diagonal or 90 degrees off to the side, but a good technique that works well.

[jman]

ststephen, I couldn't believe the one nurse was like that. It upset me even more as the days past...Thankfully, the Surgical Tech Center called me to do a survey of my visit, and told them explicitly about that nurse. It was not humane to be treated like that. With that said though, By far, the best Nursing I had was in Moab at the Allen Memorial Hospital. Although, my Dr at McKay Dee Hospital has been very accommodating and optimistic, with a good dose of reality. And he has a great sense of humor like me. haha

Shane, no, that's not the device my step-mom was talking about. Brian in SLC, actually guessed it, in a few pages back if you want to see what it was.

Since this thread keeps being posted on, I thought I would give everyone a update and post some awesome pics!
It's been nearly 2 weeks since surgery, and I'm in a hard cast now, and thankfully it's short. I'm using crutches and everyone around me has been very accommodating!

On the 21st, I will go back to have the sutures (stitches) removed, and then have another hard-cast for 3months. I'm REALLY fortunate.

[dougr]

Old thread being dug up here, but I'm a fairly noob learning from the posts. I know Tom recommends against an autoblock in general, but it is precisely for this type of scenario that I always use an autoblock (except for rappels through or into water). I never know if my hand will spasm, if a rock will bounce down and hit me, or if something else will happen. It just seems prudent to use one as a matter of course.

What am I missing?

[jman]

Old thread being dug up here, but I'm a fairly noob learning from the posts. I know Tom recommends against an autoblock in general, but it is precisely for this type of scenario that I always use an autoblock (except for rappels through or into water). I never know if my hand will spasm, if a rock will bounce down and hit me, or if something else will happen. It just seems prudent to use one as a matter of course.

What am I missing?

I had my friend down below taking pics, and a belay would of stopped me. But rigging for more friction would of prevented it. However.........I did not ever think to anticipate my break hand would spasm out and lock up, as I ever never had that ever ever ever happen on my life. Ive been canyoneering since 2002, and hve done lots of canyon, including bigger free rappels (Heaps)

It was the weirdest sensation I tell ya.

[ratagonia]

Old thread being dug up here, but I'm a fairly noob learning from the posts. I know Tom recommends against an autoblock in general, but it is precisely for this type of scenario that I always use an autoblock (except for rappels through or into water). I never know if my hand will spasm, if a rock will bounce down and hit me, or if something else will happen. It just seems prudent to use one as a matter of course.

What am I missing?

I recommend against using an autobloc as part of your standard rappelling setup, after you pass the beginner stage.

1. Autoblocs work only reasonably well, even when using always the same rope and autobloc. Half the time, they are pain in the patootie to manage to slide down the rope. They require a fair amount of effort.

2. Like gloves, autoblocs can be used to mask not setting up your friction correctly.

3. Getting used to having an autobloc can lead to bad habits. People that use an autobloc regularly can get used to just letting go of the rappel without consequences, until they happen to not have an autobloc on at that moment.

4. I have seen many people use an "autobloc" that absolutely would not have done anything, not even slowed em down. Or they use a prusik above the device, which has many, many problems, and basically does not work. Many people who use "autoblocs" do not know how to use them effectively, thus they give a false sense of security.

5. If you are going to use an autobloc, please learn how to use it effectively, AND save it for special occasions. After the fact, Jman's crash looks like one of those special occasions.

I have somewhat the same speil on bottom belays, but... use it much more often, and the bottom belay has saved my bacon on a couple of occasions, including that last rap in Heaps (thanks Chris, and thanks radios).

Tom :moses:

[spinesnaper]

In medicine, we call discussions like this post-mortems. This is perhaps not the most delicate expression considering the favorable outcome of this story.

When I spent two days with Jim Clery and Excursions of Escalante, one of the things I was encourage to forget was the autoblock. For sure this is a fussy set-up, and no substitute for the correct friction on the rappel device. It does risk getting sucked into the rappel device unless the rappel device is extended with makes things even more fiddly. Still, with the correct friction dialed in, I was sure happy with the autoblock on the last rap on Behunin.

So here is my question: It is 8:30 PM and you are standing at the last rap for Heaps. What rappel set up do you use? Not saying I am going to use that there next week (I promise Tom). Just figure this is pretty much the maximum stress test for a rappel set up that we have for canyoneering. I am curious what folks use when they feel they need belt and suspenders.

Ken

[canyoncaver]

So here is my question: It is 8:30 PM and you are standing at the last rap for Heaps. What rappel set up do you use? Not saying I am going to use that there next week (I promise Tom). Just figure this is pretty much the maximum stress test for a rappel set up that we have for canyoneering. I am curious what folks use when they feel they need belt and suspenders.

BMS micro-rack. Plenty of friction every time. No extra carabiners or autoblocs necessary.

[spinesnaper]

BMS micro-rack. Plenty of friction every time. No extra carabiners or autoblocs necessary.

Yet it is interesting that the BMS site describe these products for 11 and 10 mm rope. Can these devices be used safely for 8 mm single line? At one pound for the rack, do you use this for all of your rappelling, or do you pull it out just for the big drops?

[canyoncaver]

Yet it is interesting that the BMS site describe these products for 11 and 10 mm rope. Can these devices be used safely for 8 mm single line? At one pound for the rack, do you use this for all of your rappelling, or do you pull it out just for the big drops?

I was not aware that BMS only describes use for 10 and 11mm rope. Thanks for pointing this out. I would imagine that they say this because that is what most American cavers use. Their primary markets are cavers and firemen, two groups not usually known for using skinny rope. It would be interesting to find out if they have some reason for not going below 10mm or if it just did not occur to them to state that it is possible.

Having said that, I can tell you from personal experience that we use these racks on 9 and 8mm rope all the time. The biggest drop I have done on single-line 8mm is the entrance drop to Englestead ~300ft. I believe this is similar to the drop length in Heaps, which is why I chimed in on this thread. I felt that the micro-rack offered enough control on the big drop, even on skinny rope. It did get quite hot, but then again so did our buddy's Pirana. He actually ended up with a Pirana-shaped brand on his arm!

My wife and I, plus our small group of cavers that we go canyoneering with all use the micro-rack for all our rappels. I realize that in the canyoneering world the micro-rack is considered a large, heavy descender, but we don't really see it that way. It may be larger and heavier than a figure eight or ATC, but is much more versatile and lasts much longer. The bars on the micro are stainless steel and last for years. With the amount of rappelling that I do, I would be replacing a Pirana (or other aluminum device) every year.

[spinesnaper]

I currently rap with a Pirana, which I am wearing out. I have been considering switching over to an ATC but I wonder if this is adequate for skinny, single line situations. I know that it is used by some precisely in this type of situation. People who use the micro-rack seem pretty happy with them. This question might make an interesting separate thread. Will see if others address this issue.

Ken

[Brian in SLC]

So here is my question: It is 8:30 PM and you are standing at the last rap for Heaps. What rappel set up do you use?

I've used two ATC's. Smooth. I'll also have a biner on each leg and one for above the ATC if I feel like I need additional friction.

First time I did Heaps I just used a single ATC with no fancy rigging. We had a fairly thick 300 foot BW Static II line, though. Not enough friction, but, I wrapped it around me and used both hands. Additional friction off my wetsuit was good enough.

I've used a munter on a leg carabiner for additional friction off a long rappel (Englestead) but I prefer the smooth and no kink double ATC rig.

Have also used a mini CMI Firefly slightly custom modified rappel rack. Sweet.

[jman]

So here is my question: It is 8:30 PM and you are standing at the last rap for Heaps. What rappel set up do you use? Not saying I am going to use that there next week (I promise Tom).
Ken

You're in luck...there has been some discussion on this a few years back: Last Sequence in Heaps, which device? (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?38643-Final-sequence-in-Heaps-which-device(s))

[spinesnaper]

You're in luck...there has been some discussion on this a few years back: Last Sequence in Heaps, which device? (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?38643-Final-sequence-in-Heaps-which-device(s))

:hail2thechief:Ya gotta just love this group.

[Johnarmy12B]

Sounds like the Petzl's PET-B71 ASAP Mobile Fall Arrester. This device works on the same concept as a seatbelt in your car if you pull slowly it lets out pull fast and the seatbelt locks. I have one it is very simple to use and as long as you use one of the many diameter ropes it is desined for (I use 7/16" static) and rig it right you cant mess it up just set it and forget it. It can be used in rappelling or climbing. It has a very slight drag as you rappel just enough to keep the device trailing above you. If useing it as a self belay for climbing it has no drag and freely trails you up the rope. If you go to fast or fall and it locks you have to use a prusik knot step or other methed to get your weight off of it and turn the wheel backwards this unlocks it. When it locks with full weight on it it causes little to no damage to rope. I dont always use it as somethimes I like to rappel faster than it will alow (speed set not adjustable) but if I dont use it I always use a prusik knot as a self belay either above my rescue 8 or just below my brake hand cliped into the leg strap (newer way). This piece of gear is completly mechanical. price is around $200 differs a few bucks on diffrent web sites. Stay safe and have fun.

The "clipup" is not sold as a fall arrester and if you are unconscious the device will not lock and does not sence speed. Still a cool peice of gear though.

[ratagonia]

Sounds like the Petzl's PET-B71 ASAP Mobile Fall Arrester. This device works on the same concept as a seatbelt in your car if you pull slowly it lets out pull fast and the seatbelt locks. I have one it is very simple to use and as long as you use one of the many diameter ropes it is desined for (I use 7/16" static) and rig it right you cant mess it up just set it and forget it. It can be used in rappelling or climbing. It has a very slight drag as you rappel just enough to keep the device trailing above you. If useing it as a self belay for climbing it has no drag and freely trails you up the rope. If you go to fast or fall and it locks you have to use a prusik knot step or other methed to get your weight off of it and turn the wheel backwards this unlocks it. When it locks with full weight on it it causes little to no damage to rope. I dont always use it as somethimes I like to rappel faster than it will alow (speed set not adjustable) but if I dont use it I always use a prusik knot as a self belay either above my rescue 8 or just below my brake hand cliped into the leg strap (newer way). This piece of gear is completly mechanical. price is around $200 differs a few bucks on diffrent web sites. Stay safe and have fun.

The "clipup" is not sold as a fall arrester and if you are unconscious the device will not lock and does not sence speed. Still a cool peice of gear though.

Thanks for the post John Army, and welcome to the Bog...

Here's a link, with the Petzl video at the bottom: http://www.techtoolsupply.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=PET-B71

[Johnarmy12B]

any one see any problems with this anchor rig other than it posibly geting caught up at the top. this is a retrivable system doesnt leave anything at the top. wanted to try this but with 2 anchor points.

Top red rope is around the anchor
pink rope is rappel line
white line is for retrival

[ratagonia]

any one see any problems with this anchor rig other than it posibly geting caught up at the top. this is a retrivable system doesnt leave anything at the top. wanted to try this but with 2 anchor points.

Top red rope is around the anchor
pink rope is rappel line
white line is for retrival

That is essentially the same as: http://canyoneeringusa.com/cusapress/knots/retree/index.php

Except by putting your retrieval line inside one of the rapid links, you run the rappel rope across the retrieval rope, which is not a good idea, and un-necessary.

It works when you have a nice, clean pull-around, but leaves quite a bit to get stuck on something.

This is a "3X" solution, as it requires 3 times the length of the rappel in ropes and cords.

Tom

[Johnarmy12B]

That is essentially the same as: http://canyoneeringusa.com/cusapress/knots/retree/index.php

Except by putting your retrieval line inside one of the rapid links, you run the rappel rope across the retrieval rope, which is not a good idea, and un-necessary.

It works when you have a nice, clean pull-around, but leave quite a bit to get stuck on something.

This is a "3X" solution, as it requires 3 times the length of the rappel in ropes and cords.

Tom

yea I see what your saying thanks Tom.