Doing Mystery Canyon in May - some questions about ropes

[ag23]

Hey,
I'm doing Zion's Mystery Canyon in May, and I'm trying to figure out what length of rope to buy. I checked a couple of guides, and they list the longest rappel as between 110' and 135', and they aren't clear if that includes the height of the rappel and the distance the to anchors, or if it's just the rappel length.

So how long of a rope do I need?

Also, I know people often bring a shorter rope for the shorter rappels. Any suggestions how what a handy length for that is?

-AG

[Brian in SLC]

Hey,
I'm doing Zion's Mystery Canyon in May, and I'm trying to figure out what length of rope to buy. I checked a couple of guides, and they list the longest rappel as between 110' and 135', and they aren't clear if that includes the height of the rappel and the distance the to anchors, or if it's just the rappel length.

So how long of a rope do I need?

Last rappel is the longest at 120 feet. So, you'd need two 120's. Or, 120 for rappelling and 120 for a pull cord.

Easiest is to just carry two 50 or 60m ropes, and, use one doubled for the shorter rappels.

I'd be more worried about water levels in the Narrows in May...you might not get a permit? Could be really high flow by that time....

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[canyoncaver]

Sometimes you will see the Mystery Springs rappel listed as 150' I think this includes the 30' traverse to get over to the chains. This is usually pre-rigged with webbing, but don't count on it!

My crew does Mystery with a 210' and a 120' although you will have to tie the 120' or 30' of something to the bottom of the 210' in order to pull it all down on the last two rappels. If you tie the bottom of the 210' rope to the top of the rope bag, the tie-on is very easy to do and can be done before you even start the rappel. Obviously these rope lengths will not work if you rappel double strand.

We rap everything single strand and never use pull cord. It is a good idea to use the ACA's recommendation of required rope = 3x the longest rappel. 120 x 3 = 360' The 210 + 120 only gives us 330' so we bring along lots of webbing in case we need to extend the pull by 30'.

Hope this is not too much techno-babble and have a great trip! Brian is right, you might not get a permit in May if the Virgin is running high. It probably will be, considering the insane snowpack down there this year.

[Iceaxe]

Last rappel is the longest at 120 feet. So, you'd need two 120's. Or, 120 for rappelling and 120 for a pull cord.

I can verify everything Brian told ya. 115' is the actual length of the max rappel so 120' ropes give you plenty of extra for knot tying and stuff.

And FWIW: I've actually measured the rappels in Mystery. Mystery Springs (second to last) is 115', Zion Narrows (last) is 115'. All other rappels are 50' or less.

:2thumbs:

[Cirrus2000]

I'd be more worried about water levels in the Narrows in May...you might not get a permit? Could be really high flow by that time....
I'm guessing there's probably less than a 5% chance of getting a permit by the end of May. Earlier in May? 0.000001%

"It would take a miracle." - Miracle Max

Good luck, though, the canyon's a beauty! (I've got a reservation for May 23 - hope it works out!)

[ag23]

I'd be more worried about water levels in the Narrows in May...you might not get a permit? Could be really high flow by that time....
I'm guessing there's probably less than a 5% chance of getting a permit by the end of May. Earlier in May? 0.000001%

"It would take a miracle." - Miracle Max

Good luck, though, the canyon's a beauty! (I've got a reservation for May 23 - hope it works out!)


5%? Really? ouch. I checked out of the average flow rate records and figured I had a better then 50/50 chance. Has it been a heavy snow year?

I have mine for the 27th, so lets for a early spring.

[Felicia]

5%? Really? ouch. I checked out of the average flow rate records and figured I had a better then 50/50 chance. Has it been a heavy snow year?

I have mine for the 27th, so lets for a early spring.

Some info reading: http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20434&start=0

:rockon:

[Don]

Some snowpack info too:
http://www.ut.nrcs.usda.gov/snow/data/monthly/graph1.html

[trackrunner]

I think the Snotel data is more applicable, shows 173% of average:

http://tinyurl.com/yfuxuhg

Tom

above is a quote from an earlier thread from data bout 1 month ago: http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=200169


Some snowpack info too:
http://www.ut.nrcs.usda.gov/snow/data/monthly/graph1.html

using the data from Don's link the snow pack above normal % has decreased from 173% to 165% (note this month nrcs switch from % of average to % different from avg I've converted to keep the measurement the same as % of average) but the snow totals are still more than 2008 & 2009. About the same decrease for Narrows headwaters. Still sticken with my prediction later than 2009 around June 3-5th. This all depends on snow storm snow volume this month and when the thaw starts (late march, early april, or late april).

[Cirrus2000]

Still sticken with my prediction later than 2009 around June 3-5th. This all depends on snow storm snow volume this month and when the thaw starts (late march, early april, or late april).

I'm going to go with the third, cuz that's the day I fly back to Vancouver! :haha:

[trackrunner]

Still sticken with my prediction later than 2009 around June 3-5th. This all depends on snow storm snow volume this month and when the thaw starts (late march, early april, or late april).

I'm going to go with the third, cuz that's the day I fly back to Vancouver! :haha:

It's official then. Isn't that really how that happens, always just the day after you leave.

[shaggy125]

FWIW, last time it snowed this much the narrows didn't open till June. How warm it gets and how early etc... will determine what happens this year but I'm just sayin. We did Imlay that year just after the narrows opened. Keeping the suits on and floating most of the hike out was great fun, just let the rocks hit your feet before your butt!

[moab mark]

Floatin the narrows in the first part of June is the only way to go. :2thumbs:

[nonot]

Just do the last rap with a 60m rope doubled, it's not that difficult to do it short a few feet of rope.

[canyoncaver]

Just do the last rap with a 60m rope doubled, it's not that difficult to do it short a few feet of rope.

With this method, you end up exactly 34 feet short.

[Brian in SLC]

Not sure about that math...

Shane says 115'. Lets see, with a 60m rope, that's 200' give or take a couple.

Toss in, say, 5% elongation...

My math says you'll only be 10 feet or so short.

Given that some rope manuf's cut their ropes a bit long...

I dunno. I'd do it with a single 70m rope, for sure. I'd measure any 60m fairly closely. Some shrink an amazing amount when wet....

If you did come up short, I'd imagine a talented climber type could probably find a way to carefully down climb....(!)...

There's rumor that a SLC guy climbed up to the last rappel from the river. Tom might know (DH?).

-Brian in SLC

[canyoncaver]

I get it now, we're talking apples and oranges here. You are correct for a double rope rappel. You'd end up about 10 feet above the river with neither end touching the ground.

I was talking about how short the pull side would be on a blocked single rope rap. Even with stretch on a 200 ft. rope, (which I forgot to include the first time) it'd be about 25 feet off the ground.

But this whole conversation is sort of stupid. Why not just bring enough rope? That ten foot climbdown/jump/fall into murky water is not a good idea.

If someone climbed up from the bottom, that is quite a feat. That wall can be one slippery mofo!

[reflection]

AG 23: Regardless of whether the Park issues a permit (because of water levels) it's prudent to ask why ropes for simply Mystery? Pine Ck. Spry and possibly Behunin (and many others) will be knocking on the door after your Mystery venture, and will you (again) want to buy new ropes for those ventures? I doubt it. If you can find the rope off a spool, a 210 (which then shrinks) would be a first choice and a 200ft. or so 6mm pull line; or a mix of a 9m 60meter and an 8m 60meter. Tom's/Imlay 8.3 canyon fire is a nice sturdy canyon line that I can recommend. The BW Canyon DS 9mm (which is like an 8.5) could be one's 9mm line. Back to Mystery: Ropes/will be a function of how many people in your group, what weight of rope you are willing to carry and in part, what your experience level is. I'd have extra length of rope for the Mystery Springs "pull" and if you have more than 3 on your trip I'd have at least two ropes 120 or more, that can be used prior to Mystery Springs so two groups could keep moving. Last year at the first rap, my buddy and I came upon a couple from Seattle. (This was their first ever CP technical canyon - they said they were climbers.) They asked if we wanted to pass through (rap on their rope), I looked at their line, felt it and said NOPE! It was a 200 ft. white hardware rope - that died on them 2 raps later. (they used our ropes thereafter) Also note; ropes, when rapped on, exposed to water and gunk will shrink, and they wear out. Presently I'd only trust static 'poly" canyon lines from Imlay, BW & Sterling. (I also have nylon PMI ropes for "special niche canyon situations.) "Imlay and Sterling are less expensive than pricey BW. Good Luck. Also, if you can't get into Mystery in late May, try Spry and Pine Creek - at least for starters. There you will want one or two 200 ft. lines (and in Spry another rope or pull cord).

[Brian in SLC]

If someone climbed up from the bottom, that is quite a feat. That wall can be one slippery mofo!

Heard tell. Was apparently on that Turville video for OLN or some such. They wanted some video of the last rappel and didn't want to expend the effort to do the whole canyon.

Speakin' of ropes...yeah...my only trip through Mystery was solo and I humped two old 60m ice climbing ropes up from the bottom. Didn't seem too bad.

-Brian in SLC

[Iceaxe]

For what it's worth.... the Mystery Springs Rappel (2nd to last) can be staged and the longest rappel ends up being about 75'. If you stage the rappel you want to drop into the pool/pothole behind the huge chokestone. You will find two bolts with hangers hidden back under the chokestone.

The Zion Narrows Rappel (last rappel) could also be staged with a shorter rope. Just downstream there are some trees about mid-way down that would make a fair transfer station. See the pictures below....

I've looked at staging the Zion Narrows Rappel but never done it. I had the info filed away in my memory for an emergency situation. I've also heard the story about climbing Mystery Falls and figured they went up where the trees are. I looked it over and figured a good climber could do it.

I've staged the Mystery Springs Rappel a lot of times. I always find lots of cool booty in that pothole/pool. From the huge chokestone to the bottom is also a reasonable downclimb for an experianced canyoneer. I've down climbed it before and many of you are better climbers than I.


http://www.letsalldrum.com/images/cas4.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_n_JfUnamilE/SsVPfhgGXUI/AAAAAAAABGk/-xjazIxOZe0/s320/P9070295.JPG

[UtahAdventureGuide]

Sometimes you will see the Mystery Springs rappel listed as 150' I think this includes the 30' traverse to get over to the chains. This is usually pre-rigged with webbing, but don't count on it!

I want to cut that webbing every time i do Mystery. It seems someone places a new bolt in that location every year and it's not needed. Avoid the traverse completely by dropping strait down under the bolder where you'll find another bolt that will get you to the bottom.

[UtahAdventureGuide]

I've staged the Mystery Springs Rappel a lot of times. I always find lots of cool booty in that pothole/pool. From the huge chokestone to the bottom is also a reasonable downclimb for an experianced canyoneer. I've down climbed it before and many of you are better climbers than I.


You beat me to it. That's how we used to do it in the old days until the boyscouts decided to place an army of bolts off to the left just so they can avoid a little water.

[ag23]

AG 23: Regardless of whether the Park issues a permit (because of water levels) it's prudent to ask why ropes for simply Mystery? Pine Ck. Spry and possibly Behunin (and many others) will be knocking on the door after your Mystery venture, and will you (again) want to buy new ropes for those ventures? I doubt it. If you can find the rope off a spool, a 210 (which then shrinks) would be a first choice and a 200ft. or so 6mm pull line; or a mix of a 9m 60meter and an 8m 60meter. Tom's/Imlay 8.3 canyon fire is a nice sturdy canyon line that I can recommend. The BW Canyon DS 9mm (which is like an 8.5) could be one's 9mm line....
"Imlay and Sterling are less expensive than pricey BW. Good Luck. Also, if you can't get into Mystery in late May, try Spry and Pine Creek - at least for starters. There you will want one or two 200 ft. lines (and in Spry another rope or pull cord).

The Canyon Fire looks like a great rope. The only question is what length... I see Spray and Behunun described as needing 50m ropes. Is that correct?

(and none of this "well if you down-climb part way and jump the last 30 ft, all you need is a roll of duct tape and your shoelaces" stuff.)

I gather Spray and Behunun were more difficult then Mystery, so I wasn't going to try them until we had a few more canyons under our belts. (we're a bunch of noobs. We've done the Subway and Keyhole, and we're intermediate rock climbers so we're fine trying in to anchors.) Would it be crazy to try without more experience?

[trackrunner]

I wouldn't say Spry is more difficult. I think it easier. The big rappel is just a long slanting rap with one section at the end no more than 10ft near verticle.

Behunin has a couple big raps with the last one being free hanging. This rap has more consideration for rigging with enough friction to complete the rap smoothly. Important to know how to rig more friction on the fly on large raps & overhangs. EDIT: and to hang your packs from the harness on overhang near verticle.

Where you guys at, when are you going. I'd may be willing to help a couple noobs out.

[ag23]

I wouldn't say Spry is more difficult. I think it easier. The big rappel is just a long slanting rap with one section at the end no more than 10ft near verticle.

Behunin has a couple big raps with the last one being free hanging. This rap has more consideration for rigging with enough friction to complete the rap smoothly. Important to know how to rig more friction on the fly on large raps & overhangs.

Where you guys at, when are you going. I'd may be willing to help a couple noobs out.

We're in NYC now. We'll be in Zion from May 26th to 30th.

But damn, with Mystery iffy due to water levels, and Pine, Keyhole and Spry all iffy with the construction, the whole trip is in doubt.

Any other canyons that might be do-able to salvage this trip?

[Iceaxe]

Any other canyons that might be do-able to salvage this trip?

No shortage of canyons in Southern Utah.... where are you flying into?

Fat man's Misery should be in prime condition at the end of May.

Misery Canyon
http://climb-utah.com/Zion/misery1.htm

Subway should be good, apply today for permits. use the Das Boot Entrance for a bigger bang.

Subway
http://climb-utah.com/Zion/subway.htm

Das Boot
http://climb-utah.com/Zion/boot.htm

Yankee Doodle is close and nice, ditto Red Cave

Yankee Doodle
http://climb-utah.com/Zion/yankee.htm

Red Cave
http://climb-utah.com/Zion/redcave.htm

And to top it off... The longest slot canyon in the world is located about one hour outside Zion

Buckskin Gulch
http://climb-utah.com/Escalante/buckskin.htm

Personally I think Buckskin should be #1 on every slot canyon enthusiast's list if they haven't done it already. There is nothing else like it in the world.

Easy to add anther dozen or more canyons to this list that are in or near Zion. Check out other options here

Zion Area Canyons
http://climb-utah.com/Zion/index.htm

http://climb-utah.com/Zion/Files/boot1.jpg

http://climb-utah.com/Zion/Files/misery1.jpg

[ag23]

Any other canyons that might be do-able to salvage this trip?

No shortage of canyons in Southern Utah.... where are you flying into?


We're flying in to Las Vagas for a 8 day trip - hitting Buckskin (My third time - it is an great hike!), then some smaller canyons (bull valley and others), a day in Bryce, and finally Zion for four days.

The Subway has been booked up for a while. (The Das Boot appears open until you get to the last step, then it says it is full too.)

Misery Canyon, Yankee Doodle, Red Cave all look great! Thanks!

[trackrunner]

We're in NYC now. We'll be in Zion from May 26th to 30th.


so will I

another canyon Ice left off that will be outside the park is Birch.

[ratagonia]

The Zion Narrows Rappel (last rappel) could also be staged with a shorter rope. Just downstream there are some trees about mid-way down that would make a fair transfer station. See the pictures below....


I've 'staged' the last Mystery Rap, and it is about 90' to a secure stance. Not advised. Those trees up there are not real strong, being on a small patch of mud on the side of a cliff.

My best guess is 115' for the last rap and 110' for the Mystery Springs Rappel. And YES, that includes the (in this case minimal) run up to the anchors.

The third-class stroll to the anchors of the Mystery Springs rappel is not "usually fixed". Unfortunately, people often leave trash in the form of a 'safety line' across the ledge. While it is probably a good 'safety line' for the party that puts it in, for subsequent parties who cannot assess how the 'safety line' is attached at the far end, I declaim that the safety of the line is highly dubious - use at your own risk. A better solution is to set up a retrievable safety line, like a retrievable rappel, for your party, if appropriate.

I'd give it 50-50 that Mystery will be available at the last few days of May.

120' is a great length of rope for Zion and elsewhere in Utah.

No, you do not need shorter ropes for the shorter rappels. The "modern method" is to use Rope Bags so that you do not coil the rope, but only pull out and use that part of the rope needed for the particular rappel. Or you can get your coiling down really well, whatever!

Tom

[Cirrus2000]

We're in NYC now. We'll be in Zion from May 26th to 30th.


so will I

another canyon Ice left off that will be outside the park is Birch.
:2thumbs:

Something else to think about is, if the roadworks are an issue - if lines get long - you might be best off staying on one side of the tunnel/park for a couple of days, and the other side for a couple, and doing the canyons on each side. Better than going back and forth a number of times, and being at the mercy of line-ups (car, rather than permit).

Last I looked, Das Boot is available, but you have to make a lollipop loop, back up and out before the Subway. It's just the Subway that's full.

50/50? This year? Really? Tom, you're way more optimistic than I expected! Have you looked at your driveway lately? :haha:

[trackrunner]

Last I looked, Das Boot is available, but you have to make a lollipop loop, back up and out before the Subway. It's just the Subway that's full.


Would Das Boot stop flowing by then. I would expect a flowing Das Boot is only for experts (not the place for noobs and intermediates).

[Scott Card]

Last I looked, Das Boot is available, but you have to make a lollipop loop, back up and out before the Subway. It's just the Subway that's full.


Would Das Boot stop flowing by then. I would expect a flowing Das Boot is only for experts (not the place for noobs and intermediates).Like all canyons, depends on the amount of flow I suspect. I've done both Das Boot and Pine creek the day after flooding. Both were still flowing and I must say, they were both an absolute blast. Both had only moderate flow and doable. Not sure I would consider myself an expert but I have a lot fun trying to get good at this stuff. :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

The Subway/Das Boot usually flows strong for about a week and than settles down to what we all know and love. And the run-off is normally earlier than May.... or at least that has been my experiance. YMMV

[ratagonia]

50/50? This year? Really? Tom, you're way more optimistic than I expected! Have you looked at your driveway lately? :haha:

Sunny and warm makes me optimistic. Sunny and Warm right now, so I'm thinking it COULD be open by then.

eh?

Tom