When will it be spring?

[ratagonia]

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." - Yogi Berra

Raining and snowing in Mt Carmel again, this week. Brought to mind the previous super-snowy year which led to some mayhem and disappointments. When will the southland come "into condition" for canyoneering, and what should people expect?

A lot depends on the speed and timing of the warming cycle, but I think this early we can make some Wild Ass Guesses, unencumbered by facts...

I would expect all canyons to rather wet this spring. I am hoping that places that rarely fill up will find the melting cycle sufficient to put water in many potholes that are usually dry or dryish. Such canyons as Knotted Rope, Quandary and the Squeeze in the Swell could be great fun this spring.

Many of the canyons on "the circuit" do not hold water much, and thus will be in normal conditions unless the spring is rainy too, and then they usually take about a week to dry out. I'm thinking the Leprechauns, Hogs and Shenanigans here. Seems like Trail, Maidenwater and Merry Piglet could have cold swims quite far into the spring. Pandora fits the earlier category, though it is up high, and that one pool can hold water quite a ways into the spring. Bluejohn is likely to have a long cold swim after the only mandatory rappel in the East Fork. By doing the Squeeze fork, one avoids the rappel, but still gets to enjoy the swim.

Neon and Choprock are likely to be full full full and wet wet wet. Choprock could be very difficult AND extremely cold - I would expect summer conditions in that area to re-establish itself only in middle June or so.

Zion is likely to be in the grasp of 'winter' well into June. Lots of snow up
there in the high country, I'm thinking about July 4th weekend for the Narrows to open, and for the canyons that go into it to be available, such as Imlay, Orderville and Mystery. The North Fork Road should be on a normal schedule - and therefore become passable about May 15th? Might be a good boating season in the Narrows, if the road becomes passable while the river is still up.

Canyons in Zion will vary with altitude as to when they become "normal". South facing, small basin canyons like Fat Man's Behunin and Spry will likely see a lot of traffic. The Subway is likely to be running hard (as in, too high) for two or three weeks in the later April / early May timeframe. Echo will likely be entertaining as an extreme snow climb well into June, but not really as a casual beginner canyon until July 4th weekend, if then. Engelstead seems to be a good choice even with snow in it. Kolob unlikely until middle July. Boundary might be awesome in June, excellent in July.

Those are my predictions - what do other people think?

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

All this snow in southern Utah is killing me.... I believe this is the first time in the past ten years I didn't make at least one canyoneering trip in January and/or Feburary.

:snowguy:

I'm thinking the Zion backcountry desk will be a huge traffic jam/big ass mess this spring and early summer with the Narrows closed eliminating many popular routes.

:snowcloud:

[sarahlizzy]

Zion is likely to be in the grasp of 'winter' well into June. Lots of snow up
there in the high country, I'm thinking about July 4th weekend for the Narrows to open, and for the canyons that go into it to be available, such as Imlay, Orderville and Mystery.

Poo. Looks like I lost the gamble with flight bookings for June. :-/

Oh well, will enter the Mystery lottery, hope for a warm spring and take my chances I guess.

[Wasatch]

I remember about 3 years ago or so that a bunch of snow fell in Southern Utah. We hit the Poison Springs area in early March and to my surprise the area was totally dry, not a flake of snow anywhere, but the temps at night/early morning were in the high teens. Maybe this year will be the same. :ne_nau: :2thumbs:

[trackrunner]

Just checked the Kolob weather station snow totals.

This year there 23.6 in of Snow Water Equivalent & 78 in snow depth.

Last year at the same time there was 24.0 in Snow Water Equivalent & 74 in snow depth.

In 2008 at the same time there was 25.0 in Snow Water Equivalent & 80 in snow depth.

Both in 2009 & 2008 the narrows opened late May.

[ratagonia]

Just checked the Kolob weather station snow totals.

This year there 23.6 in of Snow Water Equivalent & 78 in snow depth.

Last year at the same time there was 24.0 in Snow Water Equivalent & 74 in snow depth.

In 2008 at the same time there was 25.0 in Snow Water Equivalent & 80 in snow depth.

Both in 2009 & 2008 the narrows opened late May.

I think the Snotel data is more applicable, shows 173% of average:

http://tinyurl.com/yfuxuhg

Tom

[jb]

That's odd. Trackrunner IS quoting snotel data, but it's from the "older" site:

http://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/nwcc/sntl-data0000.jsp?site=561&days=7&state=ut

Reads 23.6 SWE and 78 inches deep, as he says. Tom's link is the one I usually check, but the numbers for the Kolob station there are very different: 13.8 SWE, 20.9 inches deep, which frankly seems less believable than the larger numbers. Still, that's apparently 151% of average for today. I wonder why the discrepancy, and which one if either is correct?

[ratagonia]

That's odd. Trackrunner IS quoting snotel data, but it's from the "older" site:

http://www.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/nwcc/sntl-data0000.jsp?site=561&days=7&state=ut

Reads 23.6 SWE and 78 inches deep, as he says. Tom's link is the one I usually check, but the numbers for the Kolob station there are very different: 13.8 SWE, 20.9 inches deep, which frankly seems less believable than the larger numbers. Still, that's apparently 151% of average for today. I wonder why the discrepancy, and which one if either is correct?

Individual weather tracking stations can have anomolies, so I guess I think the basin-wide information is more applicable.

T

[trackrunner]

I took a look at the stations around the head waters of the N. Virgin which can be found in the attached excel file.

The YTD measurements are slightly more than this time in 2008. What is pushing the Virgin measurement up is the snow pack along the E. Virgin (which doesn

[ratagonia]

[quote=trackrunner]I took a look at the stations around the head waters of the N. Virgin which can be found in the attached excel file.

The YTD measurements are slightly more than this time in 2008. What is pushing the Virgin measurement up is the snow pack along the E. Virgin (which doesn

[trackrunner]

I think it feels like more snow because it has snowed so many days here. Last February was dry and sunny. Beautiful and warm today, didn't even freeze last night, I think. March - IN like a lamb, OUT like a lion???

Tom

Well it should feel like more snow because there is more snow. Aren't you over by th E. Virgin. E. Virgin is about 240 to 250% above normal. Does it feel about 2.5 times more snow over by you?

edit: and the N. Virgin is about 150% above normal.

[ratagonia]

I think it feels like more snow because it has snowed so many days here. Last February was dry and sunny. Beautiful and warm today, didn't even freeze last night, I think. March - IN like a lamb, OUT like a lion???

Tom

Well it should feel like more snow because there is more snow. Aren't you over by th E. Virgin. E. Virgin is about 240 to 250% above normal. Does it feel about 2.5 times more snow over by you?

edit: and the N. Virgin is about 150% above normal.

I am confused: why are YOU quicker to pick up on the geographic implications than I am????? :ne_nau: Yes, entirely correct, I am in the East Virgin basin, and driving up 89 is the East Virgin basin, at least to Todd's Corner. Yes, it feels like significantly more snow than last year.

Tom :moses:

[canyoncaver]

We did Englestead in June last year with lots of snow. Some parts seemed a little sketchy, with melting snow bridges over our heads. Doesn't it ever get too dangerous in there? I saw Tom said it was fine even with lots of snow.

How about the snow situation in Birch? I have seen TR's from November and December, but not from February-March. That's because of the road I assume. Anybody been there in dead of winter? How about early May? Anybody seen lots of snow in Birch?

Thanks,

Andy

[trackrunner]

We did Englestead in June last year with lots of snow. Some parts seemed a little sketchy, with melting snow bridges over our heads. Doesn't it ever get too dangerous in there? I saw Tom said it was fine even with lots of snow.

I've seen TR with a lot of snow in June including one where someone used an iceaxe. As for does it ever get dangerous in there more so than normal conditions I'm not the one to ask.



How about the snow situation in Birch? I have seen TR's from November and December, but not from February-March. That's because of the road I assume. Anybody been there in dead of winter? How about early May? Anybody seen lots of snow in Birch?


I've seen TR from March 2008 here and there was lots of snow, ice, & mud. Though it probably doesn't have the collection of avalanche snow & snow bridges over the cliffs like Englestead & Echo receive. I remember in TR the road was a major problem.

[canyoncaver]

Thanks for the reply.

I just realized that I went through Birch Hollow in early May last year and there was only a little snow so that answers that one. :doh:

[ratagonia]

We did Englestead in June last year with lots of snow. Some parts seemed a little sketchy, with melting snow bridges over our heads. Doesn't it ever get too dangerous in there? I saw Tom said it was fine even with lots of snow.

I've seen TR with a lot of snow in June including one where someone used an iceaxe. As for does it ever get dangerous in there more so than normal conditions I'm not the one to ask.

I'm sure it gets dangerous in there at times. Heck, I bet its really dangerous in there right now, with huge chunks of ice falling from the rim. However, I GUESS, based on trip reports from last year, that the period of hanging snow-bridges and high danger is relatively short in Engelstead.

The contrast at that time was to Kolob, which was very dangerous for a long period of time (the year before). I think the differences are: a. higher altitude, more snow collection; b. E-W orientation rather than E's N-S; and most important: c. continuous flow of water to hollow it out from underneath. Kinda like Echo, on a much larger scale.





How about the snow situation in Birch? I have seen TR's from November and December, but not from February-March. That's because of the road I assume. Anybody been there in dead of winter? How about early May? Anybody seen lots of snow in Birch?


I've seen TR from March 2008 here and there was lots of snow, ice, & mud. Though it probably doesn't have the collection of avalanche snow & snow bridges over the cliffs like Englestead & Echo receive. I remember in TR the road was a major problem.

Did Birch in a dry year in March. Muddy and messy, but there was no snow that year.

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

Woohoo.... spring is approaching and the weather seems to be improving..... I'm getting stoked to get back out.

:banana:

[oldno7]

Woohoo.... spring is approaching and the weather seems to be improving.....

:banana:

Says the guy from NORTHERN Utah. :haha:

[Iceaxe]

Yes sir.... today was the first day that felt like spring to me.... I was outside at lunch.... 50 degrees, no snow, and sunny.... so I dug out my maps and my to-do list and started doing some planning.....

:bert:

[oldno7]

Yea, I've been working in St. George the last few days, and 65 feels real nice.

[Scott P]

.... today was the first day that felt like spring to me....

Over here, it's 42F outside right now, making this the warmest day of the year so far. The snow is starting to melt as well. This morning was 5F, so nights are still slightly chilly, but it feels like spring. A snowstorm is supposed to hit tomorrow though.

[oldno7]

Yes sir.... today was the first day that felt like spring to me.... I was outside at lunch.... 50 degrees, no snow, and sunny.... so I dug out my maps and my to-do list and started doing some planning.....

:bert:

Holler when your ready to do 2 new(to me) canyons near Moab. The backroads are going to have to do some serious drying out. A guy could get "lost" if not careful. :mrgreen:

[Iceaxe]

Holler when your ready to do 2 new(to me) canyons near Moab. The backroads are going to have to do some serious drying out. A guy could get "lost" if not careful.

:2thumbs:

The roads are the only thing holding me in check right now.... last time I was out I left the self serve car wash $15 lighter and the poor car wash attendant in tears.

:cool2:

[Chungy22]

I guess Iceaxe should have waited for a littel bit! Here in Orem today we have already gotten about 8" of snow today. I don't know how Southern Utah is looking, but this seems like it is going to make the snow stay around for another few weeks! :eek2:

I am pretty sick of this snow! Just yesterday I was saying, "Yes, it is finally warming up." I guess I just forgot that we are in Utah and the weather is impossible to predict. I just hope it will warm up soon!

[DWayne27]

Whats the damage around town from this latest storm? Moab? North Wash? The Roost? I am really hoping to get out somewhere in Utah next weekend (April 9/10), but am hoping to stay mostly dry with moderately pleasant camping...

[ratagonia]

Whats the damage around town from this latest storm? Moab? North Wash? The Roost? I am really hoping to get out somewhere in Utah next weekend (April 9/10), but am hoping to stay mostly dry with moderately pleasant camping...

Snowing HERE tonight, though it IS 40 degrees out. Mt Carmel, 5000 feet.

T :moses:

[BruteForce]

In two days, we've gone from the warmest day of the year to several inches of snow on my lawn.

In my usual late April / early May camping location, there's usually only 27" of snow on the ground. Today, there's over 54" of snow on the ground. Unless it gets really warm, really quick, I think most of the mid-to-Southern Utah locations will be inaccessible until late July, early August! :roll:

[oldno7]

We have 8.5" so far and still snowing..................

[Scott P]

Snowing here too, but the snowpack here (and in northern Utah) is pretty dismal this year. It's Southern Utah and far south Colorado that have been getting all the snow (before today at least). Check out the snowpack numbers for either state:

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=134181&nid=149

ftp://ftp-fc.sc.egov.usda.gov/CO/Snow/snow/watershed/daily/co_update_snow.pdf

It's going to be a bad river river running season for much of UT and CO.

[trackrunner]

Well the Narrows finally got above 120 CFS. There was a 3 day short thaw in 2008 around this time. Real thaw melt off started two weeks later in April for both 2008 & 2009. So hopefully this is an early melt off.

There is a lot more snow in the Narrows Headwater compared to this time last two years, about 150% averaged from all sensor sites data. That is an increasing trend from the previous times I calculated this. This could mean the narrows don’t open until after early June. So the sooner Kev leaves the sooner the narrows open.

[Cirrus2000]

So the sooner Kev leaves the sooner the narrows open.

Yeah, thanks! That's totally how I see it happening... :haha: Well, I'll be done in Zion on May 24; after that, I'll be heading elsewhere, so the floods will be free to recede.

[Felicia]

Yeah, thanks! That's totally how I see it happening... :haha: Well, I'll be done in Zion on May 24; after that, I'll be heading elsewhere, so the floods will be free to recede.

Maybe renting inter tubes from ZAC and floating the Virgin might be awesome! :clap:

[DWayne27]

Does anyone know if there is still snow waiting to melt around the North Wash area, or can I go back to my normal routines of watch the forecast for a week or so before I go to see if there should be much water in the canyons? Looks like the weather should be decent this weekend, so I am hoping that means good weather for canyons, and not warming up and melting snow and leading to really wet canyons...

[oldno7]

Your gonna have to learn to like water........
We have had 2" in the last 2 hours and still snowing hard.
This will undoubtedly find it's way to North Wash.

[DWayne27]

I am getting there - I am excited to get in to some wet canyons, just in the summer time, when a dip in some water will be refreshing. Says the high on saturday around the North wash will be in the 60's the rest of the week, reaching 72 on saturday. I guess I will just prepare my whiny friends that they may get there toes wet and cold...

[Scott P]

Does anyone know if there is still snow waiting to melt around the North Wash area


There was no snow in the North Wash area when I was there a few days ago.

[DWayne27]

Anyone know how to check recent precipitation? I use the National Weather service spot forecast to see temperatures and expected rain or snow, but I am not aware of anywhere it records what actually happened. Is this avalaible somewhere?

[DWayne27]

Think I found it. I thought I had seen it before. If I am reading it correctly, and it is accurate, looks like the recent storm only put a 'trace' of precicipitation on the ground (around the north wash), and it should be a good weekend to be out.

[Scott P]

Anyone know how to check recent precipitation?


I do, but did you already find it?

If not, here:

http://www.weather.gov/climate/xmacis.php?wfo=slc

Choose "daily data for a month" and scroll down to your weather station of choice.

[DWayne27]

Aha - that is much better. Now I am assuming that the first 3 columns are max, min and average temperature, but what is HDD, CDD, and the difference between Snow & Snwg? Is Pcpn precipitation? Thanks for the link though - that is extremely helpful!

[Cirrus2000]

HDD and CDD (Heating Degree Day and Cooling Degree Day) are indexes of how much heat is required for comfiness in a building. More info is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heating_degree_day

Pcpn is precipitation - snow is distilled down to the water equivalent, measured in inches. Snow is snowfall for the day, and Snwg is "Snow on the Ground" - total depth of snow. Both of those are in inches, also.

[DWayne27]

Wow- excellent! Thanks for the help.

[Felicia]

We got a lot of cold rain last night and this morning here in SoCal. :-(

[Scott Card]

Felicia, no frownie faces allowed about So. Cal weather. I know what "suffering" you are going through. I lived in LA/ Glendale for three years and never once put on a real coat. I always cracked up when I would go to school and there were a bunch of people in parkas "just freezing" and I was in my sweatshirt. BTW, your rain will be our rain/snow tonight and tomorrow. BUT we did have a very nice weekend. :2thumbs:

[oldno7]

Strange---It's 44 deg. outside and snowing here.

[Felicia]

Yup - that was my point. The moisture is heading your way and it is cold enough to be snow. It has continued to rain off and on all day and it is still very cold; cold to me. ;-)

[oldno7]

and it is still very cold; cold to me. ;-)

Your not talkin' like clear down to the lower 70's are you?:eek2:

[Felicia]

Nope. ~54 today. :-}

[ststephen]

I thought the same thing as Felicia today: "Dang, winter is back in the Santa Cruz Mountains and headed on its way over to S. Utah". It doesn't matter that it's relatively warmer over here in NorCal than Utah but that a big 'ole winter storm pattern has come back to roost.

[oldno7]

A total of about 2" here in the yard this morning. We got around 1" yesterday afternoon and it melted before the sun went down.
This will go fast also, I'm just tired of this "White Christmas" look.............

[asdf]

I always cracked up when I would go to school and there were a bunch of people in parkas "just freezing" and I was in my sweatshirt. BTW, your rain will be our rain/snow tonight and tomorrow. BUT we did have a very nice weekend. :2thumbs:


haha
I was in the bay area (Marin county) last week and saw people sporting full on winter jackets with gloves while I was rocking a t-shirt. Pretty hilarious to see people who think the 60's are freezing.

[sarahlizzy]

I see the Virgin hit 1000 cfs(!) today. That sounds like a lot of meltwater! Can I ask what things are looking like on the ground?

[trackrunner]

there are weather cams. perhaps the rain water is melting the snow fast that would be my guest.

[sarahlizzy]

This makes me happy! I am optimistic that the narrows will be open in June for when I visit!

[ratagonia]

It has been raining down low, snowing up high. Not the best combo. hoping for a hot spell to encourage snow melting...

Tom

[oldno7]

It has been raining down low, snowing up high. Not the best combo. hoping for a hot spell to encourage snow melting...

Tom

We had over 1" of rain yesterday(we are @ 6000') Snow level looks like it came down to around 7500'. The storm we had came straight from the South, I'd presume Zion had good accumulation.

[moab mark]

The ground is white in East Layton.

[rockgremlin]

Moab got lots of rain last night, with a dusting of snow on the rim. Further south towards La Sal got up to one inch of snow. It's a bit chilly.

[oldno7]

Are you kidding me???????

It's currently 66deg. and breezy. Bar. pressure 29.68 and falling.

Did I ever mention, I'm tired of this white stuff?

[rockgremlin]

Warm, mostly sunny, very windy in Moab.

[shaggy125]

April powder day at the bird tomorrow! :clap::clap::clap:

[Brian in SLC]

April powder day at the bird tomorrow!

Today, tomorrow, through the weekend, into next week...

Might have to brave Alta tomorrow after work. Get my "end of April" powder ski day in.

-Brian in SLC

NOAA:

This Afternoon: Snow showers. High near 30. Blustery, with a west northwest wind around 26 mph, with gusts as high as 40 mph. Chance of precipitation is 100%. Total daytime snow accumulation of 4 to 8 inches possible.

Tonight: Snow showers. Low around 18. Wind chill values as low as zero. Windy, with a northwest wind between 23 and 30 mph, with gusts as high as 44 mph. Chance of precipitation is 90%. New snow accumulation of 7 to 11 inches possible.

Thursday: Snow showers. High near 21. Blustery, with a northwest wind between 14 and 24 mph, with gusts as high as 38 mph. Chance of precipitation is 100%. New snow accumulation of 9 to 13 inches possible.

Thursday Night: Snow showers likely, mainly after midnight. Cloudy, with a low around 17. Blustery, with a west northwest wind between 18 and 22 mph. Chance of precipitation is 70%. New snow accumulation of 3 to 5 inches possible.

Friday: Snow showers. High near 23. West wind between 13 and 15 mph. Chance of precipitation is 80%. New snow accumulation of 4 to 8 inches possible.

Friday Night: A 50 percent chance of snow showers. Cloudy, with a low around 18. New snow accumulation of 2 to 4 inches possible.

Saturday: A 50 percent chance of snow showers. Mostly cloudy, with a high near 28. Little or no snow accumulation expected.

Saturday Night: A chance of snow showers. Cloudy, with a low around 17.

Sunday: A chance of snow showers. Cloudy, with a high near 28.

Sunday Night: A chance of snow showers. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 17.

Monday: A chance of snow showers. Mostly cloudy, with a high near 35.

Monday Night: A chance of snow showers. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 20.

Tuesday: A chance of snow showers. Mostly cloudy, with a high near 41.

[oldno7]

This weather pattern is crazy. I'm thinking FLOODS!

[Scott Card]

I hope not.....

[Scott P]

This weather pattern is crazy

It's not unusual though, at least in most of the state. In Salt Lake City for example, snowfall so far this April is 57% of normal, which is only just over half of what is usually is. On average, Alta receives about five feet of snow in April. It's not unusual at all for fair sized snowstorms to hit in April. In fact, even in May snow is fairly common in Salt Lake City and Alta usually receives 2-3 feet of snow.

Snow is common in all areas of Utah above 5000 feet in April and even May. Even Cedar City has seen snow several times in June and even accumulating snows on occasion.

Other than parts of Southern Utah, the winter and spring hasn't been unusually snowy in most of Utah, in fact most areas have been below normal.

See below for current snowpack figures:

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=134181&nid=149

It's only the Virgin River area which is much above normal. Could be some flooding.

[ratagonia]

Not really. In Salt Lake City for example, snowfall so far this April is 57% of normal, which is only just over half of what is usually is. On average, Alta receives about five feet of snow in April. It's not unusual at all for fair sized snowstorms to hit in April. In fact, even in May snow is fairly common in Salt Lake City and Alta usually receives 2-3 feet of snow.

Other than parts of Southern Utah, the winter and spring hasn't been unusually snowy, in fact most areas have been below normal.

Don't confuse the issue with FACTS, man... How 90's-ish!!! :naughty:

Tom :moses:

[DWayne27]

I agree that this is getting very old. And it looks like come sunday and at the latest monday, it should be cleared out and warmed up. At least in Moab, that is the only area I have been watching. Oh well, I'll take my chances. 20% is only 20%

[thedesertnomad]

I love snow as much as the next person, but I must admit this is getting a little old now. Since moving up to our cabin last May I have experienced snow in:

October
November
December
January
February
March
April
and if the forecast is true, May

That's a lot!

[Scott P]

Since moving up to our cabin last May I have experienced snow in:

I have experienced snow in every month of the year in both Colorado and Utah.:nod: If your cabin is about 6000 feet, chances are that eventually you will experience snow in all months of the year except for maybe July and August. Cedar City, for example has seen measurable snow in every month except July. If your cabin is above 9000-10000 feet, chances are that eventually you will see snow every month of the year.

Anyway, just for the heck of it, check out the coldest campsites I've had each month in the Rocky Mountain region:

http://www.summitpost.org/custom-object/186172/overnight-temperatures-in-the-central-rockies.html

In Utah I have recorded temperatures in the teens in all the summer months, but that was in the mountains.

[Brian in SLC]

Friggin' awesome skiing up at Alta tonight. Couple feet, more on the way. Could be 40" by tommorrow? Yowser!

Yeah, its common, but, still nice to hit it when its fresh and this cold.

Will be way too hot in SLC soon enough. Looks ok down in the St. George area for Sat/Sun this weekend, though.

[rockgremlin]

It's not unusual though, at least in most of the state. In Salt Lake City for example, snowfall so far this April is 57% of normal...


Dunno where you're pulling your numbers from, but I decided to go straight to the source. How could SLC be at 57% of normal with Snowbird getting 84 inches of fresh powder just last week?

Here's the official number - straight from the horse's mouth:

"Salt Lake City had 2.48 precip for April, normal is 2.02. Snowfall was 6.5" where 5.7" is normal."

-Keith Merrill
KSL meteorologist/producer

[oldno7]

Can it be over now??

[Brian in SLC]

Dunno where you're pulling your numbers from, but I decided to go straight to the source. How could SLC be at 57% of normal with Snowbird getting 84 inches of fresh powder just last week?

Well, maybe 'cause Scott's post was on 4/30, when Snowbird had only recieved 7" by 4/29?

Some interesting snowpack data:

ftp://ftp.wcc.nrcs.usda.gov/data/snow/update/ut.txt

Also edited to add: Scott was reporting snowfall, not total precip, and in SLC not Snowbird.

Er something.

[Scott Card]

I was watching the news last night and they said Snowbird got something like 7 feet or 70 something inches over the past four days? What ever the number was it was crazy.

And the Virgin went up quite a bit in snow pack....

[Brian in SLC]

I was watching the news last night and they said Snowbird got something like 7 feet or 70 something inches over the past four days?

According to the snow charts listed on the NOAA website, they got:

4/29 7"
4/30 26"
5/1 11"
5/2 10"
5/3 11"

Not bad.

Snowbird's snotel site (at 9460') is currently showing 101". Alta's (9662 elevation) is currently showing 144". My bet is this latest round of snowfall up there in the last 5 or so days, Alta got a fair bit more snow than Snowbird. Was a viewable difference just on the side of the road between Snowbird and Alta the last couple of days.

The Alta parking lot is amazing. Snow must be 3 feet deep where the front end loader hasn't moved it. Crazy amount of snow. Skied the last 3 out of four days up there. Not bad for end of April/early May, but, not uncommon either. My ski pole measured a settled depth of around 3' at 9500' yesterday at Alta, and, oh so skiable.

The April snow totals for SLC haven't been totalled and compared to average yet, so, maybe in a few days we'll know, but, here's the data showing how we're tracking in the valley for snow:

SEASONAL TOTAL (SEP-MARCH).... 30.7.. 55 PERCENT OF NORMAL

That's not to say we it hasn't rained, just no where near as much snow as normal. For the month of March, we show 99 percent of normal for precipitation.

Anyhow, the weather products out there are pretty cool, but, so is direct observation (ie, shreddin' the gnar! Ha ha).

Fun stuff.

-Brian in SLC

[rockgremlin]

The April snow totals for SLC haven't been totalled and compared to average yet, so, maybe in a few days we'll know...


:lol8: You guys make me laugh long time. :lol8:

I emailed KSL meteorologist Keith Merril specifically regarding APRIL precip and snowfall in SALT LAKE CITY. I'll repost his reply in case you didn't catch it the first time:

"Salt Lake City had 2.48 precip for April, normal is 2.02. Snowfall was 6.5" where 5.7" is normal."

-Keith Merrill
KSL meteorologist/producer

Once again, just to be obnoxious:

"Salt Lake City had 2.48 precip for April, normal is 2.02. Snowfall was 6.5" where 5.7" is normal."

-Keith Merrill
KSL meteorologist/producer

[Scott Card]

Ummm, not to be totally obnoxious in return, we were talking about SNOWBIRD SKI RESORT, in the MOUNTAINS..... not SLC in the valley...:haha:

[oldno7]

WHAT???
No one likes me and my grandson's snowman?:haha:
Now I have to wait for it to die, so I can mow the lawn.........

[ststephen]

WHAT???
No one likes me and my grandson's snowman?:haha:
Now I have to wait for it to die, so I can mow the lawn.........

"Waiting for the snowman to die"...Sounds like a great name for a heavy metal song!

[oldno7]

Or how about a group---"The Dead Snowmen"

[Brian in SLC]

:lol8: You guys make me laugh long time. Once again, just to be obnoxious:

"Salt Lake City had 2.48 precip for April, normal is 2.02. Snowfall was 6.5" where 5.7" is normal."

-Keith Merrill
KSL meteorologist/producer

I got the same precip number, 2.48, but, "someones" snowfall number is off by an inch.

Which puts it a tad under average.

-Brian in SLC

NOAA data:

[PRECIPITATION DATA]
TOTAL FOR MONTH: 2.48
DPTR FM NORMAL: 0.46
GRTST 24HR 0.89 ON 12-13

SNOW, ICE PELLETS, HAIL
TOTAL MONTH: 5.5 INCHES
GRTST 24HR 2.0 ON 5-6
GRTST DEPTH: 2

[Scott P]

We
ll, maybe 'cause Scott's post was on 4/30

The one referred to was actually posted on the 28th.


How could SLC be at 57% of normal with Snowbird getting 84 inches of fresh powder just last week?


I said 57% of normal so far this month which was as of April 28, when I made my post and at the time it was correct. It snowed after that, though the total is still slightly below normal.


Here's the official number - straight from the horse's mouth:

"Salt Lake City had 2.48 precip for April, normal is 2.02. Snowfall was 6.5" where 5.7" is normal."

Actually, the official snowfall this year was 5.5 inches, not 6.5 inches. 2.48 is correct. Keith Merril obviously made a typo. Ask him again if you don't believe it and I'll bet you money (or whatever you want) that he will say 5.5 inches is the correct.



The April snow totals for SLC haven't been totalled and compared to average yet


Actually if interested, they have and are there is always a running table updated daily that will tell you the to date compared to average. Unfortunately, I can't link directly, so here's how to get the info:

Click on the link below:

http://www.weather.gov/climate/index.php?wfo=slc

1. Choose the second choice Preliminary Monthly Climate Data (CF6)

2. Choose Salt Lake City for location.

3. For time frame pick Archived Data and then the month.

It's easy enough to do it for Cedar City and SLC, but the info is more hidden for the small towns, though it can still be done.

Click the link below:

http://www.weather.gov/climate/xmacis.php?wfo=slc

Pick Daily Data For a Month.

It doesn't compare the data to averages though, so you have to do this manually.

[Brian in SLC]

Actually if interested, they have and are there is always a running table updated daily that will tell you the to date compared to average. Unfortunately, I can't link directly, so here's how to get the info:
----
It doesn't compare the data to averages though, so you have to do this manually.

Right, but...there's a table which compiles it all which hasn't been updated yet (seems to occur in the first week of the next month, though).

Amazing products on there.

Once again, just to be obnoxious, it only snowed 5.5 inches in SLC in April...ha ha.

[Scott P]

Once again, just to be obnoxious, it only snowed 5.5 inches in SLC in April...ha ha.

Yes and to be more obnoxios, the 5.7" average comes from the NCDC 1971-2000 normals which are updated every decade (they will be updated again at the end of this year). If the weathermen/women on TV (whom like to quote the 5.7") would actually take time to look at the actual data, they will notice that the snowfall data at the SLC Airport was missing between 1998 and 2001, which is why in some ways it's better to use the NCDC 1961-1990 averages. 1961-1990 averages (the latest three decades that have complete data) would put the average at 6.8". Unfortunately the 1981-2010 data will have three years of missing data for snowfall. Recent years have also recorded below normal April snowfalls, so the true average will drop as well.

To me it's strange that some (maybe all) of the weathermen/women quoting the 5.7" figure don't take time to go through the actual data and to bother noticing that some of it is missing.

[rockgremlin]

I stand both corrected and misinformed. 5.5 is the correct numba.


Pretty amazing that Alta's April snow total record was shattered at 135.7"

[Scott P]

Pretty amazing that Alta's April snow total record was shattered at 135.7"


Looks like it was; when the data is finalized it may become official. The old record was 135.6" set in 1986, but part of the data was missing (the snowfall was missed on one day).

What's weird about the record is average snow depth at Alta actually was below normal for April 2010. The dry winter and spring got it off to a dismal start. Hopefully May will be enough to catch the snowpack up to normal (in both Colorado and Utah), but it's hard to catch up ground after April.

The recent snow storms have brough snowpack in Utah up to 89% (southern Utah is above and northern Utah still below):

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=134181&nid=149

Colorado is up to 84%:

ftp://ftp-fc.sc.egov.usda.gov/CO/Snow/snow/watershed/daily/co_update_snow.pdf

Maybe river running won't be so bad this year and the reservoirs could use the water. I was hoping to run the san Rafael or Dirty Devil over Memorial Day weekend, but gave up hope after seeing the snowpack levels dwindle. Unless the snowpack improves, I guess it's something else.

Anyway, I've got to enjoy the rest of my day off so later.

[oldno7]

SNOWING AGAIN, about 1" so far and coming down heavily.:cry1:

[thedesertnomad]

SNOWING AGAIN, about 1" so far and coming down heavily.:cry1:

Where are you? We are in Zion Ponderosa and I was outside at 5am, crazy windy, but pretty clear. 7am 2" of the white stuff and still coming down. 9am now and we're at about 3".

[Win]

I could see snow on Smith Mesa a bit ago, now it's just in the clouds. Yo had enough and took off for Las Vegas for the day/night.:naughty:

Win

[trackrunner]

he lives in Iron County

And for a date bench mark for the N. Fork of the Virgin, I've noticed historically (recent years 08 & 09 and most other years this decade) May 10th was the peak flow date and it was all down hill from there on the flow rate. So how much longer this years high flow continues in an upward or flat trend from here on out should give an idea of when the Narrows open.

[Cirrus2000]

:roll:

Yeah, that's enough snow. 9 days 'til the kids and I hit Zion. :2thumbs:

[ststephen]

Maybe the snow will slow the construction on the road and make Pine Creek possible? Subway in Class C isn't going to be good for my family :sad:

[thedesertnomad]

Maybe the snow will slow the construction on the road and make Pine Creek possible? Subway in Class C isn't going to be good for my family :sad:

Unfortunately the snow line is currently much higher than the construction zone, but I have heard 3rd or 4th hand rumors that the construction has been delayed due to other circumstances (no big surprise there). I will be travelling through the construction zone on a daily basis, so I will keep this and other forums updated on the current conditions.

[oldno7]

Where are you? We are in Zion Ponderosa and I was outside at 5am, crazy windy, but pretty clear. 7am 2" of the white stuff and still coming down. 9am now and we're at about 3".

Hi Nomad
I'm just over the hill and North of you, Parowan. The new home of eternal Winter.

[sarahlizzy]

It's not just you guys. Here in the UK we had a frost last night, in May, at sea level. That's not supposed to happen.

[ratagonia]

It's not just you guys. Here in the UK we had a frost last night, in May, at sea level. That's not supposed to happen.

Frosted here last night in Mt Carmel. This is going to mess with the Narrows runoff. The melt will slow down, then pick up again when it warms again. Ugh! It was going so well.

What happened Kev, postpone your trip???

Tom

[Scott Card]

My guess is that the Narrows will be rockin' and rollin' this weekend and next week. Temps are supposed to get to the 90's this week end or first part of the week next week. Is spring really here????

[thedesertnomad]

My guess is that the Narrows will be rockin' and rollin' this weekend and next week. Temps are supposed to get to the 90's this week end or first part of the week next week. Is spring really here????

I suppose so, but I thought that LAST MONTH!!! It's pretty normal to see a low temp of 39 degrees (forecasted for Thurs), but then "they" say a low of 50 on Friday. With the high temp of 71 I have just NEVER known our area to be that close of a spread. I can remember last summer with highs of 90 and still having lows of 39... now THAT is the spread that I got used to up here...

[Cirrus2000]

What happened Kev, postpone your trip???

Tom
*sigh* It's still on, arriving in Springdale a week today. I won spots for Mystery on Sunday the 23rd (my first full day as a 45-year-old), and watching the flow rates over the last couple of weeks, I thought there might be a chance... Now, not so much. :cry1: Well, if that one's not available, I have a Behunin reservation for the same day.

Still - should be a great trip nonetheless. Got a few days' worth of Keyhole permits, planning to do Angels Landing, that kind of thing. Likely Yankee Doodle or Boltergeist - maybe even Birch Hollow. We'll see.

[ratagonia]

*sigh* It's still on, arriving in Springdale a week today. I won spots for Mystery on Sunday the 23rd (my first full day as a 45-year-old), and watching the flow rates over the last couple of weeks, I thought there might be a chance... Now, not so much. :cry1: Well, if that one's not available, I have a Behunin reservation for the same day.

Still - should be a great trip nonetheless. Got a few days' worth of Keyhole permits, planning to do Angels Landing, that kind of thing. Likely Yankee Doodle or Boltergeist - maybe even Birch Hollow. We'll see.

Lower Fridge, just for you... T

[Cirrus2000]

Lower Fridge, just for you... T

Looks good! The final rap looks pretty sweet - I'd have to teach the kids what poison ivy looks like, though... :haha:

Going to have to keep this one up the sleeve - thanks, Tom!

[ratagonia]

Looks good! The final rap looks pretty sweet - I'd have to teach the kids what poison ivy looks like, though... :haha:

Going to have to keep this one up the sleeve - thanks, Tom!

Not a lot of poison ivy, just a little.

T

[Scott P]

Looks like Zion area still has a big snowpack. I guess canyons like Imlay are out or a while because of the Virgin? I was hoping to go to it soon.

Also looks like the snowpack is SE Utah sure went quick:

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=134181&nid=149

[jman]

Looks like Zion area still has a big snowpack. I guess canyons like Imlay are out or a while because of the Virgin? I was hoping to go to it soon.

Also looks like the snowpack is SE Utah sure went quick:

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=134181&nid=149

Wow that was way quick. Down to 8% for SE. And Virgin is 181%. Still a Lot for mid-May.

[Scott Card]

Looks like Zion area still has a big snowpack. I guess canyons like Imlay are out or a while because of the Virgin? I was hoping to go to it soon.

Also looks like the snowpack is SE Utah sure went quick:

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=134181&nid=149 I think their bar graph is goofed up. If you hold your mouse over the colored area on the colored state graphic you can see the actual numbers. I am no math guy bit the numbers on the graphic (map) and the bar graph don't add up.

**Edit. I just emailed KSL to see what was up with the inconsistent numbers. Well see what happens.

[Scott P]

I think their bar graph is goofed up. If you hold your mouse over the colored area on the colored state graphic you can see the actual numbers. I am no math guy bit the numbers on the graphic (map) and the bar graph don't add up.

They add up fine for me. Are you sure you aren't looking at the precipitation values vs. the Snow Water Equivalent values (SWE)? SWE is for snowpack.

[Scott Card]

They add up fine for me. Are you sure you aren't looking at the precipitation values vs. the Snow Water Equivalent values (SWE)? SWE is for snowpack.

Oopsie... You are correct sir! Dang, now I will look like an idiot on two websites... KSL and here. :haha:

[oldno7]

Another 1" this morning on the lawn:crazy:

[dbaxter]

Another 1" this morning on the lawn:crazy:

OH NO! I think you guys need to buy this house next to us that's for sale! (We're good neighbors AND we got no snow :nod:)

My deepest sympathies...

[blueeyes]

Once again I drive back from St. George to wake up to it snowing in the Ogden area. I really don't think the snow is ever going to go away this year. It is just going to pull off and be blazing hot in a few days...right??? :cold:

[oldno7]

OH NO! I think you guys need to buy this house next to us that's for sale! (We're good neighbors AND we got no snow :nod:)

My deepest sympathies...

And I was going to mow the lawn today:haha:

[Iceaxe]

Dang.... I woke up to 3" of snow in my yard this morning. :eek2:

[Scott Card]

The Virgin River is at a whopping 190%of normal snow pack. Are you kidding me? I guess the question is when does the runoff start?

[Win]

Virgin is as high as I can remember seeing it. This was yesterday in Virgin River Falls Pk, Virgin.

Win

http://www.fototime.com/CD7387C05C9BB01/orig.jpg

[Scott Card]

Better question I guess is, when will it end? (Thanks for the photo update - charts and graphs only tell you so much)