Canyon Leader Responsibility

[DWayne27]

I dont know if this thread is open to everyone yet - but this brought up some questions for me. On this same day, my group went through Monkey Business. It was less eventful, gratefully, but we had a lot of the same considerations about daylight hours, finding the exit because none of us had done the canyon, etc. We also were concerned about getting wet in the pothole, and how we would handle that. I had gone over my plan to deal with that in my head, and it was executed without difficulty, as planned. We did find the exit, and although some of our group was extremely scared at a few parts of the climb to the rim, and all of us were a little worried here and there, we made it to the top, again without incident, but just as the sun was setting.

My group consisted of my wife and I, an experienced friend, and another couple who had only done a few canyons with us on another trip in October. My wife isnt great with rope work, but is a competent downclimber/climber, and self reliant, as well as having some experience and training in first aid. My experienced friend and I are both good with basic rigging, self rescue, rigging contigencies, stuff like that. The inexperienced couple are 'outdoorsy' but wouldnt be able to finish the canyon on there own.

One thought that came to my mind is that I definitely like to go with at least one other person that has the skills to finish the canyon. However, we didnt have a SPOT or anything like that. My wife and I each have one of those emergency bivy bags, as well as the small emergency blanket, and a few hand/body warmers. If something went wrong, and we didnt get to the exit early enough to climb out in the daylight, or one of the girls who werent as tolerant of the cold got wet (I gave piggy back rides to them, but almost dumped one of them over backwards, which would have totally soaked her instead of just getting her bottom half wet - luckily it worked out), is it my responsibility to tell al the people in my group 'hey, make sure you have bivy gear, just in case?' or to provide enough for everyone on my party? They DONT have that stuff, and it is hard enough to find friends to go with/split gas with...

[Brian in SLC]

If something went wrong, and we didnt get to the exit early enough to climb out in the daylight, or one of the girls who werent as tolerant of the cold got wet...is it my responsibility to tell al the people in my group 'hey, make sure you have bivy gear, just in case?' or to provide enough for everyone on my party?

Well, hopefully on the front end of the trip (!) not finding out during that they aren't as prepared as you'd like them to be.

Great topic as its own thread.

Excellant question.

Another what if is, what if something did go wrong? Would you be blamed?

I kinda wonder about this, as, on other trips (mostly skiing), I've been blamed and have friends who've been blamed...and, I thought unfairly, at the time...(really, pretty minor things, damaged ski gear and tired people, mostly).

The whole concept of "canyon leader" has always been rather amusing to me in light of some of the above.

Actually discussed some of this stuff with a friend today about a climbing trip that went sort of "weird" for him, when he and his partner found out they had very different styles and very different tolerance for certain types of risk (nice to find that out on the tallest peak in the western hemisphere...ha ha).

It's kinda interesting to ponder.

I'd suggest breaking it off on its own. Admin's?

-Brian in SLC

[TNTRebel]

Sorry for the delay in posting and this post will not provide what ya

[jman]

A "Canyon leader" in my opinion, would be someone who initially organizes the trip and takes the blunt of the responsibility. And responsibility in this context means 1) a primary plan, 2) a contingency plan, 3) possibly a backup-contingency plan, and 4) always informing someone at home the initial plans, destinations, emergency contact, including most people's cell phone numbers in the group, and pertinent medical info (and one last thing - credit card numbers so I can use for Amazon later!)

They would be responsible in retrieving the correct beta or as much data as possible about the area too (weather, nearest town, nearest cell-phone coverage, etc.), GIS 7.5 maps, and logistics planned out as well.

But not just the basics of (food, gas, shelter) although that's at the minimum requirements, but knowing locations of springs (if people run out of water too quickly), and knowing people's current medical problems, such as myself, I'm a Type-1 Diabetic for 12 years, and I always make sure someone knows where my Glucagon kit is (if I pass out due to low-blood sugar, would you know what to do or how would you know if I was a diabetic even if I never told you and I just suddenly passed out? anyways, this glucagon kit is to revive me from a low-blood sugar - hallelujah style!) and carrying extra sugar for the person (just in case he or I or whoever runs out, or their diabetes isn't under control). I'm always carrying "extra" sugar just in case, and make sure the car is loaded with cans of food and usually a gallon of water for emergency use.

Along with Medical issues, I usually carry a plastic brace in my back, just in case someone rolls their ankle or their leg is "acting up" and need some extra help.

Plus, If I remember, I usually ask if anyone is allergic to bees. If they are, I carry a epi pen in my pack as well.

Another responsibility is, at the trailhead, just before heading out, making sure everyone knows the plan, and to keep a lookout on weather, making sure everyone knows the 2radio frequency channels (for canyons that require long rappels and yelling doesn't suffice and/or sometimes if you leave the radios on in the backpacks, channels can accidentally change (and that's not good if you don't know the right #), and letting everyone know, just in case for whatever reason we get seperated, our contigency plan or either waiting or going ahead, whatever. Also, I let everyone know who is carrying the medical bag (I'm a EMT-I and carry about 3lbs of supplies) and who is carrying the purifier.

haha. Now you might be wondering, that's a LOT of info to require or do...but when you do it over time, it adds no-more than 30-60 extra minutes. And you might seem that my preparation and ideas are OVERkill, but in reality, will this happen everytime? In regards to the Top 4 Essentials...then yes, it happens EVERY time. In regards to the added things below the 4 - well, not every time, but most of the time it happens.

And besides, that's what a "leader" does right? In any regard how you look at this, it comes down to "being prepared" just like the good ol Boy Scout motto.



If something went wrong, and we didnt get to the exit early enough to climb out in the daylight, or one of the girls who werent as tolerant of the cold got wet (I gave piggy back rides to them, but almost dumped one of them over backwards, which would have totally soaked her instead of just getting her bottom half wet - luckily it worked out), is it my responsibility to tell al the people in my group 'hey, make sure you have bivy gear, just in case?' or to provide enough for everyone on my party?
This usually happens especially when they are noobs...Not having the proper equipment/skills/whatever. So, in my opinion, the leader would TELL them to rent some wetsuits, or if you had some extras - loan what you can. Tell them everything, including proper shoes. I once brought a guy who brought skater shoes to the Subway, and he was slipping and sliding all over the place and was telling me how it was my fault I didn't tell him before hand. Yes, I should of have, but then again, common sense plays in! You don't bring stilettos hiking! (you get my point).

And I have had a hard time with asking people to fork over gas money, but when you are a college student and not making $$$$$$$$$$$$ trillions of dollars like Shane or Tom or whoever, I have learned very quickly to ask them to help pitch in. hehe

Oh, and I can't forget, with all the above said - the leader has powers of delegation. GREAT GIFT INDEED!

ugh.../long post.

[moab mark]

A.J. brought up a good idea at the moab fest. He said when he goes out with groups they ask each person to donate $5 to the individual who brings the ropes etc. Makes replacing ropes not so painful.
Mark

[tanya]

[quote=TNTRebel]Sorry for the delay in posting and this post will not provide what ya

[DWayne27]

Wow... that is a lot of stuff you do. And first off, I wouldnt necessarily call myself the Canyon Leader, but I did organize the trip, and in canyons, it does seem 1 or 2 people take on the role of leader, and the rest of the group looks to them to handle the obstacle.s Unless everyone in the group is experience, then you can end up with too many chiefs...

Whenever I do a canyon I havent done before, and I am the Leader/Organizer, I do absolutely read all the available beta on any of the websites out there. At my old job, I had plenty of time, so I think I have read every description of every canyon on Shanes site, Toms site, Tanyas site, AJ Road Trips, American Southwest.... (thanks to all, by the way). I know about any obstacles that we will have to face, and any surrounding canyons, how long the approach and exit... I also print off the maps, and, even if I am not the 'Leader' or it is a canyon I have done before, I will check the spot forecast for the canyon, drainage, camping area, etc. everyday for at least the preceeding week, if not more. Not just to see what the highs and lows are, or if rain is possible, but if there has been any chance of rain or trace of precipitation at all recently. And of course, whenever I have any questions about exit hikes (I am not a good judge of what to expect if an exit says 'some spots of 4th class climbing are required', or 'traverse the exposed ledge'), current condtions, water levels, etc, I post here, and generally get at least 2-3 helpful responses (thanks again everyone).

I also make sure everyone has the appropriate clothes, gear, helmets, footwear, etc. In this case, I told everyone to dress in layers and there is a possibility we could get wet to maybe thigh deep. None of us have wetsuits, and we are all broke, so I didnt think it would be worth it to spend the money and haul them through a tight canyon like that.

However, I havent started asking/telling/talking about emergency gear for everyone. Anyone of my regular partners has what they need, and it is hard enough to get new partners the basics like helmets and harnesses. I think I will tell everyone to AT LEAST pony up the 3 dollars to grab an emergency blanket or 2 from walmart to throw in their bags.

The medical stuff, I think in this group I knew everyone well enough and knew there werent any medical conditions or anything like that, but that is an excellent point when it comes to bringing new partners.

[Iceaxe]

A.J. brought up a good idea at the moab fest. He said when he goes out with groups they ask each person to donate $5 to the individual who brings the ropes etc. Makes replacing ropes not so painful.

I'm not a fan of this.... for the simple fact that the minute money begins to exchange hands a whole new set of rules come into play in regards to liability....

If someone gets hurt and decides to seek legal action the fact that money exchanged hands is a huge factor. If no money exchanges hands the outting is regarded as friends playing together in the outdoors and not pay-for-play....

The only time I deviate from this is Zion permits... and I collect everyones money at the window....

I'd say it's better to have everyone contribute to the group gear.... easy to assign 50' of webbing to a noob...

To me the $5 is not worth the risk of potential legal problems.

:cool2:

Interesting topic. :2thumbs:

[Don]

A.J. brought up a good idea at the moab fest. He said when he goes out with groups they ask each person to donate $5 to the individual who brings the ropes etc. Makes replacing ropes not so painful.

I'm not a fan of this.... for the simple fact that the minute money begins to exchange hands a whole new set of rules come into play in regards to liability....

If someone gets hurt and decides to seek legal action the fact that money exchanged hands is a huge factor. If no money exchanges hands the outting is regarded as friends playing together in the outdoors and not pay-for-play....

The only time I deviate from this is Zion permits... and I collect everyones money at the window....

I'd say it's better to have everyone contribute to the group gear.... easy to assign 50' of webbing to a noob...

To me the $5 is not worth the risk of potential legal problems.

:cool2:

Interesting topic. :2thumbs:

Agreed. There are plenty of ways a noob can contribute without exchanging money. One big obvious one is he could carry the rope.

[hank moon]

If someone gets hurt and decides to seek legal action the fact that money exchanged hands is a huge factor. If no money exchanges hands the outting is regarded as friends playing together in the outdoors and not pay-for-play....


I think the most important factor in assessing liability is the relationship and understanding between the participants...

Let's look at 2 scenarios:

1. A trip with a leader. 5 people set out to do Canyon A. Only 'John' has any knowledge and experience of the canyon with the others accepting the leadership of this one informed individual. A short conversation among the participants takes place before the trip with the leader asserting that he has the skills and knowledge to take the party through. This is accepted by the others and thus his/her leadership is established.

2. A trip with no leader. 5 people set out to do Canyon B. None of the participants has any experiential knowledge of the canyon, but all have studied maps and available beta. No leadership discussion takes place. However, all of the rope for the trip is supplied by 'Randy' who has asked for a wear and tear donation of 5 bucks. Most agree, with one saying he'll pick up the beer afterward.

Who is more liable: John or Randy?

And why?

[Brian in SLC]

One thing I've seen done, though, is if you do trash someone's rope, then, especially if its new and a fairly big group used it, to pass the hat and collect a reasonable amount of money to replace it.

We did that in France (last rappel on Pissarde was a rope muncher) and every pitched in enough to offset the rope cost.

What I don't like, is when a large group uses your rope...and core shots a couple feet of it, then someone gives it back to you and doesn't say anything...

Anyhoo...here's a shot of the rope from Pissarde:

[ratagonia]

What I don't like, is when a large group uses your rope...and core shots a couple feet of it, then someone gives it back to you and doesn't say anything...


Still sore about that? 8 years?

300' x 9mm good enough for ya?

T :moses:

[Brian in SLC]

Who is more liable: John or Randy?

That's a pretty good scenario. But...I always think back to Denzel in the movie Training Day, when he says, "its not what ya know, its what ya can prove".

Memories get hazy but changing money doesn't. If someone wrote a check, that check was cashed, and the person who wrote it also wrote on it, "canyoneering", then, there'd be a solid record of money changing hands. Might stand up in court if someone got sued (say, the check writer got injured and came back to the trip leader for medical bills).

Makes me think back to the gal that sued her climbing partner when she got hurt (here in Big Cottonwood Canyon). He claimed he was an expert, rigged a top rope directly through some slings, she climbed up, and, the slings melted through when he lowered her, and she got hurt fairly bad.

Kinda crazy stuff.

-Brian in SLC

[Cirrus2000]

Nice photo! :2thumbs:

Love the cigarette in the lower right corner. Yep, welcome to France... :haha:

[hank moon]

Makes me think back to the gal that sued her climbing partner when she got hurt (here in Big Cottonwood Canyon). He claimed he was an expert, rigged a top rope directly through some slings, she climbed up, and, the slings melted through when he lowered her, and she got hurt fairly bad.

hey, that's exactly the incident i was thinking of when i wrote the scenarios...

[Brian in SLC]

What I don't like, is when a large group uses your rope...and core shots a couple feet of it, then someone gives it back to you and doesn't say anything...
Still sore about that? 8 years? 300' x 9mm good enough for ya?

Yeah, still sore. Still feeling guilty? Ha ha!

But, not really about having to cut my beeeeautiful 300 foot rope into a 80 and 220 footer.

Its that no body mentioned it. Damn, that thing was hammered (2 feet of rope schred?). Big fat static. I can't imagine rappelling on that thing, passing the schredded sheath, and not saying anything.

Nah, got plenty of rope. Scott gave me a great deal on that rig too. And, honestly, that static is a much more usefull length for most climbs now, so, functionally, its fine. Although, if it were closer to 70 meters it'd be better.

But...when I go to use it awhile later, flake it out, and find out? Yikes, man!

Some deep deep emotional scars never heal. Actually, the scars heal, but, the juice still squeezed out from the memories still proves useful (in online internet forums). Ha ha.

Cheers!

-Brian in SLC

[Don]

Makes me think back to the gal that sued her climbing partner when she got hurt (here in Big Cottonwood Canyon). He claimed he was an expert, rigged a top rope directly through some slings, she climbed up, and, the slings melted through when he lowered her, and she got hurt fairly bad.

Shit. Pretty obvious rookie mistake. Man, every time I hear a story like this; someone missed the obvious, it sends me back into The Freedom of the Hills (http://www.amazon.com/Mountaineering-Freedom-Hills-Mountaineers/dp/0898868289) for hours.

[Iceaxe]

Makes me think back to the gal that sued her climbing partner when she got hurt (here in Big Cottonwood Canyon). He claimed he was an expert, rigged a top rope directly through some slings, she climbed up, and, the slings melted through when he lowered her, and she got hurt fairly bad.

What was the outcome of that? I remember the story but never heard the final results.....

The problem I see with some of these scenario's is folks expect the law to be fair and just.... which it's supposed to be.... but in reality it has a tendency to follow the money and fair and just have little to do with it.... or at least that's my (and OJ's) experience....

:popcorn:

[Brian in SLC]

Makes me think back to the gal that sued her climbing partner when she got hurt (here in Big Cottonwood Canyon). He claimed he was an expert, rigged a top rope directly through some slings, she climbed up, and, the slings melted through when he lowered her, and she got hurt fairly bad.

hey, that's exactly the incident i was thinking of when i wrote the scenarios...

Kinda fresh on my mind, as I just got off the phone with a friend who was the guy who convinced her to sue her partner. Different topic (uhh...moonshine and its consumption risks relative to methanol...something that might get discussed tonight if you go to the canyoning get together...hmmm....yeah...). Anyhoo...

She took a bit of a beatin' on line climbing forums, to be sure. So did that gal that took Micky D's to court for the hot coffee. Devil's in the details...

Hopefully see you tonight.

-Brian in SLC

[Brian in SLC]

What was the outcome of that? I remember the story but never heard the final results...

She took a pretty good beatin'...in the press. Wall Street Journal, etc.

I don't think she'd have ever took him to court if he'd at least said, "I'm sorry".

Settled.

***************

Court/Judge --3rd District/Hanson
Verdict/Settlement --Settlement, 8/02
Amount --This case settled for $65,000.
Injuries --Plaintiff suffered a fractured pelvis, a broken wrist, a foot fracture and a concussion.
Attorney(s) - Plaintiff --David J. Burns and Stuart W. Hinckley of Parsons, Davies, kinghorn & Peters
Attorney(s) - Defense --Tim D. Dunn and Clifford C. Ross III of Dunn & Dunn
Damages --Plaintiff claimed $18,483 in medical expenses.
Facts/Contentions --Plaintiff stated that defendant took plaintiff rock climbing in Big Cottonwood Canyon in 1997, representing to her that he was an experienced climber. Plaintiff was only a beginning climber. She claimed that defendant improperly attached nylon webbing to nylon climbing rope after securing the webbing to the top of a rock, with the result that the rope rubbed against the webbing, which broke and dropped plaintiff to the ground.

*******************

Geez, what's a carabiner cost?

Got pretty widespread press. Fairly interesting study on liability and partners and such.

Good on 'er.

-Brian in SLC

[Iceaxe]

Thanks for posting the settlement....

If I'm reading this right it was "settled".... which really means everyone got tired of the cost of screwing around in court..... similar to the Zion Kolob settlement....

Is that correct? No actual blame was assigned?

.

[ratagonia]

Thanks for posting the settlement....

If I'm reading this right it was "settled".... which really means everyone got tired of the cost of screwing around in court..... similar to the Zion Kolob settlement....

Is that correct? No actual blame was assigned?

.

Kolob: Feds were afraid to go before a jury with the facts of the case - decided it was better to bite it and settle.

They weren't tired of screwing around - they were afraid of going to trial. It was kinda a lose-lose for them - they would have been the bad guy, any result.

Tom :moses:

[moab mark]

Thanks for posting the settlement....

If I'm reading this right it was "settled".... which really means everyone got tired of the cost of screwing around in court..... similar to the Zion Kolob settlement....

Is that correct? No actual blame was assigned?

.
Someone came up with 65k either him or his insurance?

Mark

[Brian in SLC]

Someone came up with 65k either him or his insurance?

Makes sense it would have been the lawyers.

She was only asking for 18k and change to cover the medical bills.

-Brian in SLC

[moab mark]

Someone came up with 65k either him or his insurance?

Makes sense it would have been the lawyers.

She was only asking for 18k and change to cover the medical bills.

-Brian in SLC

Plus pain and suffering. :nod:

[Iceaxe]

Kolob: Feds were afraid to go before a jury with the facts of the case - decided it was better to bite it and settle.

Not exactly.... the Feds actually won the first round in court.... With Kolob the Feds were afraid because it was eventually heading to a jury and when this type of thing goes before a jury the guy with the deep pockets (the Feds in this case) have a high rate of failure, regardless of the actual facts. So "yes" they were afraid they might loss.... but not because of the actual facts....

In this corner we have the big bad government that actually has the ability to print money.... and in this corner we have a poor starving widow with three youngin's to feed.... makes for a tough case to win....

:blahblah:

The case involving the climbers is more interesting....

:popcorn:

[Brian in SLC]

Plus pain and suffering.

Nope. None of that. I don't think she ever asked for more than her medical expenses.

-Brian in SLC

[moab mark]

Plus pain and suffering.

Nope. None of that. I don't think she ever asked for more than her medical expenses.

-Brian in SLC

Unless I am not reading the settlement right. The girl or her attorneys got the difference but the dude had to put up the coin?

Mark

[Brian in SLC]

Unless I am not reading the settlement right. The girl or her attorneys got the difference but the dude had to put up the coin?

You think her (and his) attorneys were working for free?

"One call, that's all". My bet its common for a person to get a third (or less) of a settlement.

Any lawyers out there?

-Brian in SLC

[moab mark]

Unless I am not reading the settlement right. The girl or her attorneys got the difference but the dude had to put up the coin?

You think her (and his) attorneys were working for free?

"One call, that's all". My bet its common for a person to get a third (or less) of a settlement.

Any lawyers out there?

-Brian in SLC
Yes they will take a third. But I guess my point is he was held liable. Scarrrrrryyyyyy.
My biggest fear in taking scouts. Yes the church has coverage etc but......
Mark

[Iceaxe]

Mark, someone like you might want to get an "Umbrella Insurance Policy". It's really cheap and covers you for anything one of your other insurance policies doesn't. The policy I carry is for one million dollars and costs something like $150 per year.... really cheap....

I first bought it back when I was boating a lot but your jeeping would be the same type thing... If you roll a jeep and someone gets cruched it will protect you for up to one million dollars... it should also cover you with scouts and other stuff like that....

:cool2:

[Brian in SLC]

Here's another rope schred trivia contest for Tom...ha ha...

Where and when?

Hint, Rich may be able to help.

Every blasted rope tells a story!

Now, why again shouldn't folks use old, thin dynamic ropes in canyons? Hee hee.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[moab mark]

Mark, someone like you might want to get an "Umbrella Insurance Policy". It's really cheap and covers you for anything one of your other insurance policies doesn't. The policy I carry is for one million dollars and costs something like $150 per year.... really cheap....

I first bought it back when I was boating a lot but your jeeping would be the same type thing... If you roll a jeep and someone gets cruched it will protect you for up to one million dollars... it should also cover you with scouts and other stuff like that....

:cool2:

Yea I have one. The policy isn't to bad by itself but where they get you is if you have a lot of vehicles etc insured they make you take all of them to the max liability also. Which increases the premium on each. But it's still let's you sleep better.

Mark

[caverdan]

..

[CarpeyBiggs]

Not sure if this is the right thread to ask this butt........Is going back up a rope simply not an option in canyoneering?

The caver in me thinks that if I was going down into a canyon to rescue someone, I would set ropes to go down to the injured party then climb back up them......... instead of trying to follow the canyon down and pull ropes down behind me.

Do canyoneers ever practice or know how to ascend a rope?

going up ropes is always an option. but unlike a cave, usually, the easiest exit from the canyon is out the bottom. so going back up doesn't really get you anywhere, especially if you've pulled any of the ropes upcanyon. down canyon is the way out.

[ratagonia]

What I don't like, is when a large group uses your rope...and core shots a couple feet of it, then someone gives it back to you and doesn't say anything...
Still sore about that? 8 years? 300' x 9mm good enough for ya?

Yeah, still sore. Still feeling guilty? Ha ha!

But, not really about having to cut my beeeeautiful 300 foot rope into a 80 and 220 footer.

Its that no body mentioned it. Damn, that thing was hammered (2 feet of rope schred?). Big fat static. I can't imagine rappelling on that thing, passing the schredded sheath, and not saying anything.

Nah, got plenty of rope. Scott gave me a great deal on that rig too. And, honestly, that static is a much more usefull length for most climbs now, so, functionally, its fine. Although, if it were closer to 70 meters it'd be better.

But...when I go to use it awhile later, flake it out, and find out? Yikes, man!

Some deep deep emotional scars never heal. Actually, the scars heal, but, the juice still squeezed out from the memories still proves useful (in online internet forums). Ha ha.

Cheers!

-Brian in SLC

Your Honor -

let the record show that full replacement was offered to litigant on a timely basis - uhem, if'n you consider 8 years later timely... and denied acceptance thereof.

Yeah, hard to say. Bet some one up top dropped the rope, then someone below coiled it. Someone in the process should have noticed that the rope was chewed up! Just a warning - ropes hanging swing back and forth in the wind overnight (or over several nights and days), and get chewed up. I shoulda checked before I returned it to you, and I didn't.

T

[ratagonia]

Not sure if this is the right thread to ask this butt........Is going back up a rope simply not an option in canyoneering?

The caver in me thinks that if I was going down into a canyon to rescue someone, I would set ropes to go down to the injured party then climb back up them......... instead of trying to follow the canyon down and pull ropes down behind me.

Do canyoneers ever practice or know how to ascend a rope?

Canyoneers rarely ascend rope and rarely become proficient. Also, canyon rappels often do not set up well for ascension, can be very difficult. Other travel UP the canyon can also be extremely difficult - like in a cave.

therefore, it depends. If near the top, sure, take em out the top. If near the bottom, take em out the bottom. If in the middle, sometimes easier to pull them up the side. All require skill and effort... it depends.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Here's another rope schred trivia contest for Tom...ha ha...

Where and when?

Hint, Rich may be able to help.

Every blasted rope tells a story!

Now, why again shouldn't folks use old, thin dynamic ropes in canyons? Hee hee.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

Hmmm, that would be a memory question, and as many are aware, that is far from my specialty... (pass)

T :moses:

[Brian in SLC]

Salome Jug.

Fun stuff...

-Brian in SLC

[rick t]

There are elements within the community who are quite skilled in going back up. Some ex or current cavers, and a few oddballs. After hearing wild stories of some of these exploits and giving them some ribbing, i was invited on an Arhart Ascendfest, and decided to give it a shot, while still being mildly concerned about it. Turns out it was great fun. We dropped into Boundary, setting and leaving 9 ropes of the appropriate length along the way, which Roger had prepared and marked, had a leisurely lunch at the bottom, and then turned around and went back up. Turns out it was less stressful than I had imagined (though that was not unanimous among the newbie ascenders), the crux on some of the ascents were climbing back up over a lip at the top. But LOTS easier, and much faster, than the MIA exit. The next day we moved over a canyon, and did the same thing at the South Fork of Oak, or the Eye of the Needle, which added considerably to the interest level, with a river flowing down on top of you. Going back up, in the water flow admittedly increased the level of difficulty somewhat, and made for a memorable experience. Having the right equipment, and getting it dialed in under the tutelage of experts, made all of the difference- i would never have tried it on my own. But i will do it again, and will try further such adventures. There are those who drop into lower Echo with the same twisted plan.

rick t