Rah! Rah! yahoo

[ratagonia]

Those involved I have to ask now that time has passed what do you think you would have done better, learn beforehand, practice, tech training, self rescue training, etc.


Well, a good question. Now that we've all expressed great relief that everything came out ok other than Dad's knee, are 'we' ready for a real, critical analysis? Don't mistake that for a simple question.

A real debrief would involve some painful statements. LOTS of stuff to say about this whole thing. A lot of ground to cover. Are the principle actors up for (recovered enough for) to do a good job of this, and allow themselves to be criticized? Are the Bogley BigShots willing to give up their posturing and cheap frat-boy 'jokes' (including pointing up my arrogance - a too-easy target!) in order to participate as mature adults? Y'all up for an adult discussion, unlike normal Bogley-fare?

The Canyons Group Big Shots are very clear that this kind of adult conversation is not something that can take place over here in the "Bog". I have hopes that it can. I think it is important to do so here for three main reasons:

1. Participation of the folks involved in the discussion would be helpful to understand what happened. While the story has generously been told in detail, questions remain on specific details of thinking (rather than details of actions, which are well-told). Also, the debrief would be more effective if the people involved get the first chance to critique their own actions.

2. People who participate on Bogley but not on Canyons are an important constituency for the kind of information a good debrief would generate. Less politely, the technical level at Bogley in general is not as high as the technical level at Canyons Group, and Bogleyites are more likely to repeat the same mistakes unless they are made extremely clear. Canyons Group certainly includes a wide range of abilities, and Bogley certainly has the advantage that people with little technical knowledge or canyon experience have no compunctions about posting and sharing their opinions. (see the next point).

3. To me, one of the factors that needs to be discussed is what I call "the Bogley attitude", by which I mean the attitude that this stuff is not really all that technical, so there is not that much to know. My comments in an effective debrief would take aim squarely at this attitude, and would hopefully penetrate some of the hard-headed, anti-technicality of the Bogley environment.

Factors that might make a de-brief at Bogley ineffective include:

1. The Bogley hard-headed, anti-technical attitude. To me, Ice is the source of the poster boy of this problem; and Bogleyites taking umbrage at being called incompetent (and their friends being called incompetent) will interfere with an effective debrief.

2. Many people with useful viewpoints will not participate on Bogley (Dean, in particular).

3. Rawness/Emotion: hey, it has only been a week, and there are significant emotions involved for quite a few people here. It may not be possible to have an adult conversation here with people keyed up by the recent events.

4. Bogley threads rarely stay on track and on purpose. Even if I lay down some ground rules for the discussion, will people follow them?

5. Perhaps my arrogant attitude has already pissed off enough people that an adult conversation over here on Bogley is no longer possible.

So, players, you up for a good debrief - If so I have spent some time contemplating a useful format and style, and can kick it off soon, if y'all are up for some of the stuff I've talked about above.

In any case, it is likely a parallel and/or subsequent debrief would also take place over on Canyons Group, and it would be great if the players could also participate over there.

Tom (no moses, though this is hardly rant-free)

[Sombeech]

Many people with useful viewpoints will not participate on Bogley (Dean, in particular).

Sounds like a personal problem

[Brian in SLC]

In any case, it is likely a parallel and/or subsequent debrief would also take place over on Canyons Group, and it would be great if the players could also participate over there.

Well, now, isn't this interesting.

I needs me one of them popcorn eatin' emoticons...!

Cheers and good luck.

-Brian in SLC

[Cirrus2000]

As a "Bogley Big Shot", I'm very interested in where this goes. I'm a Big Shot as far as a forum member goes, but I certainly don't consider myself a "Canyoneering" Big Shot (not a chance!). I know that I'm often guilty of derailing threads, because of my propensity for being snarky, and leaping upon any opportunity for sophomoric humour. On this kind of forum, that's so easy to do...

I think that what Tom and Shaun are talking about may be possible here, but the main players have to be reminded that this is not personal, it's not vindictive, and it's not people being petty. The best way to improve safety for everyone out there is an impartial analysis of the situation, the facts, the actions, the motivations, the intentions, etc. etc. etc.

Are we up for that? I hope so. I'm also reading what's happening on Yahoo (I always do) but I'd like to see some good analysis here, too. I consider this my Utah/canyons home, having never felt particularly comfortable over there - I'm too snotty, kind of flippant, and don't canyoneer enough to even try to be taken seriously over on the "light" side (damn, I wish I could.)

Let's give it a go, eh?

[Sombeech]

Just start a topic, state in the first post that the "Rules of posting in this thread" are that you stay on topic and have a serious discussion. Even state that if a user abuses the request for that thread, that the moderator would be asked to remove their comment.

I think those rules would be followed quite well, and if not, the moderator could be asked to delete the user's post. Simple enough.

I don't think anybody here opposes the serious conversation. The majority of the forum users are here to socialize, read about outdoor adventures, and try to learn more about it. If the rules are right up front, I'd definitely respect that.

[Don]

As a "Bogley Big Shot", I'm very interested in where this goes. I'm a Big Shot as far as a forum member goes, but I certainly don't consider myself a "Canyoneering" Big Shot (not a chance!). I know that I'm often guilty of derailing threads, because of my propensity for being snarky, and leaping upon any opportunity for sophomoric humour. On this kind of forum, that's so easy to do...

I think that what Tom and Shaun are talking about may be possible here, but the main players have to be reminded that this is not personal, it's not vindictive, and it's not people being petty. The best way to improve safety for everyone out there is an impartial analysis of the situation, the facts, the actions, the motivations, the intentions, etc. etc. etc.

Are we up for that? I hope so. I'm also reading what's happening on Yahoo (I always do) but I'd like to see some good analysis here, too. I consider this my Utah/canyons home, having never felt particularly comfortable over there - I'm too snotty, kind of flippant, and don't canyoneer enough to even try to be taken seriously over on the "light" side (damn, I wish I could.)

Let's give it a go, eh?

+1 All of the above. I'm a junior canyoneer guilty of derailing threads but I'm interested in seeing more serious and technical discussions here (as long as there's still room for a smart-ass like me to be a smart ass in other threads).

[accadacca]

Many people with useful viewpoints will not participate on Bogley (Dean, in particular).

Sounds like a personal problem
Yahoo Canyons Group :lol8:

[ratagonia]

Many people with useful viewpoints will not participate on Bogley (Dean, in particular).

Sounds like a personal problem
Yahoo Canyons Group :lol8:

yeah, but, without Ann Margret... :cry1:

T

[hank moon]

yeah, but, without Ann Margret... :cry1:




http://www.summerswebnet.com/mytribute/vmaaw242/photos/Ann_margaret_2-22-66.jpg :slobber:

[Brian in SLC]

To further this most excellant digression...

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/08/23/opinion/24coupland.jpg

http://www.dvbs.eu.org/video/k8T1ZR98aEA/Ann-Margret-Rain-Champagne-Tommy.html

http://coupland.blogs.nytimes.com/2006/08/23/ann-margret-swimming-in-baked-beans/

[hank moon]

To further this most excellant digression...

bean wrestling - smash the mirror - yeah!

[Iceaxe]

Yahoo Canyons Group :lol8:

Yahoo Groups.... or to be more exact.... land of the Dinosaur.....

http://www.schools.pinellas.k12.fl.us/gallery/animated/AnimatedDinosaur.gif

It appears Tom has become a little delusional in his old age.... A legend in his own mind..... maybe 5 years ago those on Bogley were still sitting at the kiddie table, but Bogley has grown up and is entering its prime..... while Yahoo has moved to eating soft foods in the old folks home and telling old war stories from yesteryear.



http://adsoftheworld.com/files/images/PowerhorseOldFolks.preview.jpg

[ratagonia]

Factors that might make a de-brief at Bogley ineffective include:

1. The Bogley hard-headed, anti-technical attitude. To me, Ice is the source of the poster boy of this problem; and Bogleyites taking umbrage at being called incompetent (and their friends being called incompetent) will interfere with an effective debrief.
...
5. Perhaps my arrogant attitude has already pissed off enough people that an adult conversation over here on Bogley is no longer possible.


So nice of you to contribute such useful commentary to the thread, Ice. But I think I already covered that, (see above).

Calling yourself an adult does not make you an adult.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

So nice of you to contribute such useful commentary to the thread, Ice. But I think I already covered that, (see above).

Calling yourself an adult does not make you an adult.

Tom

Does too. Does not.

Maybe a wise man doesn't try to steer a boat that doesn't have a rudder.

-Brian in SLC

[jman]

I love the thread name change, whichever mod did that. haha

Yahoo Groups vs. Bogley.

Here's the difference:
Canyon Groups is dedicated to strictly Canyons.
Bogley is dedicated to the outdoor and its sports.

Canyon Group may perhaps have more technical members, than Bogley? Perhaps not. One can argue that Canyons do talk more technical than here. But, to think that us Bogley members do not talk technical or our anti-technical (and our "attitude") is a little unfair. There have been numerous posts of "is this rigging correct" and "what knot is better" and "benefits of biner blocks" etc. But to think that we are non-technical is a little brash.

How do you know what my skills level are? Just because I post on Bogley doesn't mean I don't have equal qualifications as a member on Yahoo Groups (and visa versa). I've done 1/2 the canyons in Zion (including Heaps and Imlay), 3/4 of the canyons in Moab, 1/2 the canyons in Robbers Roost, more than 1/2 in North Wash (including Sandthrax) and so on and so on. Just because I don't have TR for every single trip, and because every one of my posts isn't about the correct anchoring on the 3rd rap of the trip, or another thread asking if 50 feet of webbing is sufficient or if 60 feet of webbing is sufficient, doesn't mean I'm "anti-technical".

My purpose is not to come across ad hominem, but stating that these are two different boards. Some like Yahoo Groups better, some like Bogley better. And we can have just as serious dicussions as anyone else.

And just like everyone else, I'm learning about new places, and new techniques, etc. That's what these boards are here for. And I'm glad there is a AAR (we did this after every fire working for the BLM in St. George) on the Larry Canyon incident. This will further our maturity here.

[tanya]

"You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named 'Bush', 'Dick', and 'Colon'"


I just thought I should say something here. :popcorn:

[hank moon]

"You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance, Germany doesn't want to go to war, and the three most powerful men in America are named 'Bush', 'Dick', and 'Colon'"


I just thought I should say something here. :popcorn:

It's 2009 :)

[CarpeyBiggs]

How do you know what my skills level are? Just because I post on Bogley doesn't mean I don't have equal qualifications as a member on Yahoo Groups (and visa versa). I've done 1/2 the canyons in Zion (including Heaps and Imlay), 3/4 of the canyons in Moab, 1/2 the canyons in Robbers Roost, more than 1/2 in North Wash (including Sandthrax) and so on and so on. Just because I don't have TR for every single trip, and because every one of my posts isn't about the correct anchoring on the 3rd rap of the trip, or another thread asking if 50 feet of webbing is sufficient or if 60 feet of webbing is sufficient, doesn't mean I'm "anti-technical".

no need to take it personal, it's obviously a generality. but, bogley does have a lot more "newbies" compared to canyons, and overall, a lot less experience. the reason is obvious, canyons has been around almost 10 years.

now, the layout sucks. it's barely readable, but when it comes to discussion of anything beyond climb-utah beta, canyons offers better beta and information. that said, bogley has come a long long ways.

it would be nice if we could migrate all the canyons players to better system like bogley has, but a lot of the problem is exactly the points that Tom mentioned earlier. the two groups have very different skill sets, attitudes, and experience levels.

oh yeah, then there is the community politics thing... :popcorn:

[Felicia]

the two groups have very different skill sets, attitudes, and experience levels.

oh yeah, then there is the community politics thing... :popcorn:


"Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted."

[hank moon]

Why does there need to be such a drive to sustain/preserve negative attitudes and community politics?

it has 3 letters

[jman]

How do you know what my skills level are? Just because I post on Bogley doesn't mean I don't have equal qualifications as a member on Yahoo Groups (and visa versa). I've done 1/2 the canyons in Zion (including Heaps and Imlay), 3/4 of the canyons in Moab, 1/2 the canyons in Robbers Roost, more than 1/2 in North Wash (including Sandthrax) and so on and so on. Just because I don't have TR for every single trip, and because every one of my posts isn't about the correct anchoring on the 3rd rap of the trip, or another thread asking if 50 feet of webbing is sufficient or if 60 feet of webbing is sufficient, doesn't mean I'm "anti-technical".

no need to take it personal, it's obviously a generality. but, bogley does have a lot more "newbies" compared to canyons, and overall, a lot less experience. the reason is obvious, canyons has been around almost 10 years.

now, the layout sucks. it's barely readable, but when it comes to discussion of anything beyond climb-utah beta, canyons offers better beta and information. that said, bogley has come a long long ways.

it would be nice if we could migrate all the canyons players to better system like bogley has, but a lot of the problem is exactly the points that Tom mentioned earlier. the two groups have very different skill sets, attitudes, and experience levels.

oh yeah, then there is the community politics thing... :popcorn:

I know Tom was speaking in a broad sense to the community - and my reply is part of my nature of letting any uncontested slam dunks get past...


the two groups have very different skill sets, attitudes, and experience levels.

I agree with you on the attitudes part, but very different skill sets and experience levels, I don't agree. How do you judge that we are "very different" from each other?

Example: If someone searched up my outdoor resume on Bogley, they wouldn't find any, except for very few TRs, and I would assume on that they wouldn't think I wasn't too qualified for much harder canyons. Yet, I've done Imlay and Heaps (with high and low water levels), and I've done Sandthrax, Egypt 4, and attempted Scorpion West but didn't have the hardware to advance past the crux (bad beta on my part, and that reminds me, I'll bet forum8fox would love this canyon!). But no one would of guessed that...

I agree 1000% percent that it would be great if everyone could come together and share what everyone has. How do we do that?

[CarpeyBiggs]

I know Tom was speaking in a broad sense to the community - and my reply is part of my nature of letting any uncontested slam dunks get past...
hahaha. fair enough.


Just because there are more noobs? Forum8Fox of Bogley was possibly the first known ascent of Sandthrax, can Canyons claim that? And that was just after 3 weeks of his introduction to Canyoneering. Maybe, he is a fluke in the populous, but still...

i hardly doubt jason would "claim" a group. likely doesn't care (though he can post for himself). and it wasn't he who climbed up it, it was his friend. he posts on both groups regularly. do you really want to tally points by "team." it's silly.

jason, however, is not experienced. he admits it in his TRs. athletic? yep. skilled? yep. brass balls? check. crazy fit? got that too...

but experience only comes with doing canyons, and doing LOTS of them, and knowing how to size up the dozens of scenarios one might encounter.
another significant difference is age group. bogley does encourage newbies to post, and also the young guys. canyons has more of a "good old boys" mentality. at least it might seem like it at first glance.

regardless, it's not an argument about if one group is better than the other. they are different, and that's all there is to it. i spend a lot of time with people from both groups, so i can only speak from my experiences. but the difference is pretty distinct.

YMMV. :2thumbs:

[Felicia]

I agree 1000% percent that it would be great if everyone could come together and share what everyone has. How do we do that?

Simple:

Pick a topic - I suggest the one that Tom has already started.

Inventory yourself and identify some of your own strengths that you are willing to share and participate in those areas. ie: technical knowledge of a certain subject.

Also inventory yourself and identify an area or two where you need to develop - watch for pitfalls and don't get sucked in unprepared. ie: don't be a snot. :haha:

If this was a meeting or a training class, we could "shut down" the interrupters, but the keyboard gives them just as much right to participate. I seldom choose to engage them. With their own words, they make themselves look bad.






:rockon:

[jman]

regardless, it's not an argument about if one group is better than the other. they are different, and that's all there is to it. i spend a lot of time with people from both groups, so i can only speak from my experiences. but the difference is pretty distinct.

YMMV. :2thumbs:

Perfect! I concur. It isn't between which one is better, I agree, although Tom did initially point out that this couldn't happen on Bogley due to our "anti-technical" attitude.

Then again, maybe he's right? There has been no life in the threads he created about the incident......

[hank moon]

Then again, maybe he's right? There has been no life in the threads he created about the incident......

or perhaps it's more that the frankness and detail of the TRs already published (esp. from TNTRebel), has dampened the field for the moment?

[ratagonia]

Then again, maybe he's right? There has been no life in the threads he created about the incident......

or perhaps it's more that the frankness and detail of the TRs already published (esp. from TNTRebel), has dampened the field for the moment?

People have been playing by the rules.

The rules (at the moment) are: the ball is in the principles's court to shoot next - first to provide information in response to the questions, then to provide a self-critique before everyone else (for instance, Scott Card) jumps all over their case.

Those guys have done an excellent job of communicating and laying it all out to date - the best I ever have seen! I hope they will continue to play (though they may get weary of the whole thing); but at the moment we are in a waiting pattern. I hope people will respect that and give it space.

Tom

[Scott P]

I've done 1/2 the canyons in Zion (including Heaps and Imlay), 3/4 of the canyons in Moab, 1/2 the canyons in Robbers Roost, more than 1/2 in North Wash (including Sandthrax) and so on and so on.

That

[cookiecutter]

1. Participation of the folks involved in the discussion would be helpful to understand what happened. While the story has generously been told in detail, questions remain on specific details of thinking (rather than details of actions, which are well-told). Also, the debrief would be more effective if the people involved get the first chance to critique their own actions.

2. People who participate on Bogley but not on Canyons are an important constituency for the kind of information a good debrief would generate. Less politely, the technical level at Bogley in general is not as high as the technical level at Canyons Group, and Bogleyites are more likely to repeat the same mistakes unless they are made extremely clear. Canyons Group certainly includes a wide range of abilities, and Bogley certainly has the advantage that people with little technical knowledge or canyon experience have no compunctions about posting and sharing their opinions. (see the next point).

3. To me, one of the factors that needs to be discussed is what I call "the Bogley attitude", by which I mean the attitude that this stuff is not really all that technical, so there is not that much to know. My comments in an effective debrief would take aim squarely at this attitude, and would hopefully penetrate some of the hard-headed, anti-technicality of the Bogley environment.

Tom (no moses, though this is hardly rant-free)

Just a few points:

1. Tom reminds me, in attitude and mannerisms, of Dr. Cox on the t.v. Scrubs. For those of you who haven't seen the show, Dr. Cox is the guy with all the experience and skills and is very blunt - occasionally arrogant - to the residents who are working with him. However, he does so to get experienced points across without dancing around trying to please everyone. He succeeds in pissing some people off but in the end he really cares about his patients and is doing all of this for their best interest...aww warm fuzies. Look, if you can open yer eyes Tom is trying to help out here. I've been on the canyons group for maybe, maybe, 2 weeks now? You can tell a difference in content. Not saying Bogley doesn't have the quality, its just weeded in with a lot of other stuff (some by me). Having the 'to-the-point' conversations that take place over there on the format of the Bogley site would be extremely beneficial. You may call me a Tom suck up but its cool, after all it was his book and ropes that got me into the sport. Despite my suckingupedness he still will get on me when I say something stupid, because I really think he cares about helping.

Alright, number 2:

Bogley has a user friendly format (as mentioned above). I think that in itself has a lure to noobies. When first getting into the sport (I am still a noobie with not much experience) this site was extremely easy to get going with and easy to post on. The canyon group setup just isn't. I'm not saying experienced technical canyoneers relate more easily to a crappy formatted site, but that Bogley is much more open to someone just getting started. And that a great thing IF we can get some more technical conversations by the tons of peeps on here that know their stuff.

Jaden

[jman]

[quote]I've done 1/2 the canyons in Zion (including Heaps and Imlay), 3/4 of the canyons in Moab, 1/2 the canyons in Robbers Roost, more than 1/2 in North Wash (including Sandthrax) and so on and so on.

That

[hank moon]

Cookie, that is the best character sketch of TJ I've seen. Of course there are many facets to our beloved Mr. Jones, with the, uh, "Cox" facet (i.e. good-hearted arrogance) showing but one of his many endearing traits.

:cheers:

p.s. never seen 'Scrubs', though...

1. Tom reminds me, in attitude and mannerisms, of Dr. Cox on the t.v. Scrubs. For those of you who haven't seen the show, Dr. Cox is the guy with all the experience and skills and is very blunt - occasionally arrogant - to the residents who are working with him. However, he does so to get experienced points across without dancing around trying to please everyone. He succeeds in pissing some people off but in the end he really cares about his patients and is doing all of this for their best interest...aww warm fuzies. Look, if you can open yer eyes Tom is trying to help out here. I've been on the canyons group for maybe, maybe, 2 weeks now? You can tell a difference in content. Not saying Bogley doesn't have the quality, its just weeded in with a lot of other stuff (some by me). Having the 'to-the-point' conversations that take place over there on the format of the Bogley site would be extremely beneficial. You may call me a Tom suck up but its cool, after all it was his book and ropes that got me into the sport. Despite my suckingupedness he still will get on me when I say something stupid, because I really think he cares about helping.

[Scott P]

So with that, here ya go, (including all significant forks):

Robbers Roost
-Lost Park Canyon
-Upper Horseshoe Canyon
-Larry Canyon
-White Roost
-Blue John
-Tidwell
-Low Spur Canyon
-Clear Water
-White Roost
-Easter Pasture Canyon (dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb)
-Alcatraz Canyon
-Big Spring
-Lost Spring Canyon
-Mindbender

Hmm, I guess even if you didn

[Spidey]

Oh yeah well I'm the best canyoneer in the world and I post over on the yahoo group. Peace I'm outa here. Over to the yahoo group. Where there's some experience.

[jman]

Sorry Scott, I should of mentioned above that those were the ones that I could remember top of my head.

Yup, forgot a few: Buck, Beaver, Bull Pasture, North F of Three Canyon, Moonshine W. Fork, Sams Box Left Fork and No Mans.

Thanks for the suggestions! I will add those to my list.

West Fork has a good amount of water (I went in late May) and has a great spring to fill up at. And it's more of a day-hike than technical (like you mentioned above). I don't remember any rappels, but don't quote me on that entirely. It has a few seeps which makes it colorful along the way. YEAH its open and fairly wide. The hanging gardens is always a nice view in the desert. That one is fairly small but very impressive because its really thick (vegetation growth). But by far, the right fork of Larry is the best. Sorry if that wasn't too helpful. I'll dig through some old notes and see what else I can find for ya.

I mean, if you are JUST going down there for that canyon alone, IN MY opinion, it's not worth it. If ya got a few days and want to tick it off - it's a okay canyon.

[moab mark]

This has been interesting. I am a silent follower of the yahoo site. Hard to follow the format and if your not in the loop your an outsider? Everyone keeps stating that the yahoo site has a higher degree of technical posts? I agree there are probably more people on yahoo with vast technical experience but where are all these technical posts? I am probably wrong but I cannot think of a discussion on yahoo about how to handle ? The feeling I get on yahoo is most everyone already knows how to handle every imaginable problem that could occur so they just don't discuss it? The ACA site use to be a great place to go for technical questions but there does not seem to be many posting there anymore.

I can't decide after reading this thread if I have been doing a disservice by trying to get noob type technical discussions going because I haven't done xyz x rated canyon? If this is the feeling out there and I am putting people at risk by putting ideas in their heads please let me know and I will gladly stop and just follow along?

Mark

Mark

[jman]

I can't decide after reading this thread if I have been doing a disservice by trying to get noob type technical discussions going because I haven't done xyz x rated canyon? If this is the feeling out there and I am putting people at risk by putting ideas in their heads please let me know and I will gladly stop and just follow along?

Mark

Mark

Mark you aren't doing a disservice at all, in my opinion. I think its very helpful to have the discussions that you've been starting. The more discussion, the better for the community. With Canyoneering, it's more hands-on environment vs. lecture/ideology/lack of better word. But, without the core of Canyoneering, the hands-on will only get you so far (like the Subway, and that's it!). I mean anchor building, Knots, Handlines, Belaying, Sequencing, Rappelling basics, contigency or backup anchors, blocks, ascending, guided rappels, bolts, retrievable anchors, swimming-disconnects, multi-pitch rappels, class-c waterfalls, potholes, keeper potholes, hooks, picks, soooo much information, that you can't really learn hands-on, spare of the moment. This just shows you some thinking that goes on in a noobs mind...when I first learned about Canyoneering 2001, I was thrilled and the Subway was my first canyon. I was hooked after that. After signing up with Yahoo Groups and finding information on Shane's site a few years after that, I was shocked to learn what a keeper pothole was. I never thought of something like that existing. I just thought Canyoneering was entering a canyon similar to the Subway or LWH and jumping through cold water, and having some downclimbs. Boy, was I embarrassed (and shocked that I could of killed myself, if I went unprepared, not knowing anything) when I learned more about it....

Mark that's what this forum is for I believe. Don't be shy!

And, on a side-note, I'm SLOWLY, very slowly, designing a canyoneering website that has all of the aforementioned skills on itt. Think of it as a Dummy guide, or Falcon guide, or handbook, whatever. So far it has over 60 pages of notes and LOTS of pictures/guides/knots/situations etc. in it. And it is very layman speak, so mistakes are practically non-existant. And it would be freely distributable. I think having something like this online (in a exhaustive/comprehensive form) would prove to be invaluable for beginning and intermediate canyoneers. It would be easy to link to certain pages and people would be able to add their own thoughts. Almost like a wiki.

[Sombeech]

If the complaint is that we don't cater only to the experts, don't expect that to change. If the high society wants to keep in their shitty Yahoo format and stay away from the commoners, let 'em.

The Yahoo Group member is the type of person that prints out their emails and stacks the paper on their desk, then deletes the email. They say "it's easier to find this way". They want to show more than 5 pictures to a friend, so they burn it to a CD and mail it to them. They don't agree with all of these fancy schmancy photo hosting services. And then they ask for the CD back in a month so they can mail it to somebody else.

These are the same people who forward you that email saying something will pop up on your screen after you forward that to 11 other people.

You know all of those funny email video clips you've sent them? Yeah, they've burned them to a CD just in case this whole internet thing is a fad.

The Yahoo Groups is just one step ahead of being Pen Pals to a group of people. When emoticons came along, it blew their freakin' minds.

So, why "all of the experts are on Yahoo Groups" is beyond me. If they're just trying to stay in a civilized place where they can talk about the correct color of helmet in the month of August, then I would call that...... sheltered.




















































http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vG4-JXzlYeU/R1C9-0bWeoI/AAAAAAAAAHM/hO1LcWOWRzE/s1600-R/computer%2Bnerd%2B%2B%2BLimpet%2B2%5B1%5D.JPG

[CarpeyBiggs]

If the complaint is that we don't cater only to the experts, don't expect that to change. If the high society wants to keep in their shitty Yahoo format and stay away from the commoners, let 'em.

The Yahoo Group member is the type of person that prints out their emails and stacks the paper on their desk, then deletes the email. They say "it's easier to find this way". They want to show more than 5 pictures to a friend, so they burn it to a CD and mail it to them. They don't agree with all of these fancy schmancy photo hosting services. And then they ask for the CD back in a month so they can mail it to somebody else.

These are the same people who forward you that email saying something will pop up on your screen after you forward that to 11 other people.

You know all of those funny email video clips you've sent them? Yeah, they've burned them to a CD just in case this whole internet thing is a fad.

The Yahoo Groups is just one step ahead of being Pen Pals to a group of people. When emoticons came along, it blew their freakin' minds.

So, why "all of the experts are on Yahoo Groups" is beyond me. If they're just trying to stay in a civilized place where they can talk about the correct color of helmet in the month of August, then I would call that...... sheltered.

the classic bogley ('beech) argument. completely misses all of the REAL reasons why canyons exists and stays with the old yahoo group.

mainly, it has to do with the archive that's over there, which is substantial. and the fact that it has been around for 10 years. and the fear is if they try to migrate the entire user group, lots of people won't come along because it takes work. and it's not really "broken" so much as it just isn't as nice as the bogley interface. and many people prefer to get the messages in a daily digest that goes to their inbox, so they don't have to follow it on the group.

the idea that bogley doesn't cater to the experts has nothing to do with it. that is simply a byproduct of the fact that a majority of the hardcore canyoneers from the last decade have been participating over there, and they gain little to nothing by participating over here.

all the rest of your mumbling up top just demonstrates why a lot of people won't participate HERE, when they probably otherwise would. they think the moderators and participants act like ignoramuses, as your response here perfectly demonstrates. (that very culture has been celebrated here since as long as i've been here... i.e. derailing threads, posting stupid photos, etc...) we've debated this endlessly with you, and each time, you display your ignorance...

did you intend to make tom's point for him yet again? :popcorn:

[James_B_Wads2000]

http://ash1.com/wow/pics/Oh_Noes_teh_Forum_Drama_by_MythTrainerInfinity.png


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Needs-moar-drama.jpg

[moab mark]

Beech,

Have you got rocks in your head? I do not know the ownership layot etc of this site but I think you are involved in it. From looking at the post totals for bogley canyoneering is a large part of the game. So why do you feel it's a smart decision to go and tell a group of potential players to go stick up their ***. Yes their format sucks, but theres alot of potential bogleyites over there. With knowledge that I wish was shared HERE.

The part that really urks me is you do not even play in this arena? Why do you drop in and drop an A bomb and set the game back 10 years?

I am a casual canyoneer I participate in a wide variety of outdoor sports, the canyoneering community is a querky group. What interests me in canyoneering is you get to play with ropes and see amazing country.
Since the ACA site has dropped off there is pretty much bogley and canyons carrying the ball. Do you know how much better this site would be if there wasn't just the dozen or so canyoneers posting most of the time?

So I guess my point is go hang out in the General Discussion section or the Rubbish Bin but let's not try to piss off potential customers. Most of the canyon players will probably never post on bogley but your not helping the cause.

Mark

[tanya]

Variety is the spice of life guys. :frustrated: Can you imagine only looking at one woman for the rest of your life. :haha:

:hail2thechief: I ADORE RAM and SHANE and I even quite like TOM. :nod: (Can't rave about TOM too much or it goes to his head and he is my neighbor. Ran into him at the store last night :2thumbs: ) These are the big 3 that do most of the posting. Heck, I even like that old stick in the mud Rich Carlson (hi Rich. I know someone will run and tell you your name came up in here, but that's cool. I like to see you post) :popcorn: and am thrilled to see any of them post on serious canyoneering subjects, or just hanging :bootyshake: loose and having fun with fellow outdoor types and I have heard Shane say the same thing. He might not always agree with them, but I believe he does like them to post and he likes debate with them. I do understand that getting some canyoneering people to like and enjoy each other is a lost cause because I have tried and its hopeless! :ne_nau:

There is nothing wrong with either group. :cool2: Although most of the Canyon's posts don't interest me, (man's technical stuff) as well as the posts in my own Yahoo Zion National Park group (where both Dean - who I also adore and Ram are moderators), but neither do most of the Bogley posts. The difference in Bogley is its easy to avoid the ones that have no interest to me. I do enjoy trip reports in all the groups, reading them and posting them - mostly I like them anywhere in Zion or this part of the GSEM - or RAM stories anywhere!

Even if you are not into canyoneering, you should read the RAM stories. They are CHARMING!!! They are human - full of care and exceptionally well written!

Perhaps this is the
main difference between
Bogley (Shane) and Canyons (RAM)...
The way they think and their
personalities rather than the
mechanics of the groups.

It was hard :eek2: to get me to come to Bogley because I love yahoo even though I agree with what Beech said and its old and archaic, but so are some of us! I think it was over a year or so after being invited by Beech and Iceaxe that I finally began to post, and I missed Shane's :nod: posts in my group a LOT, but still I could not bring myself to venture over to the new technology.

Of everything on the net - posts by Shane are what I enjoy the most!!!! and always have. :hail2thechief: I know everyone does not feel the same, but I find them funny --- and he is so much like me, only he is more out spoken, but we do think the same on almost everything. (Is that scary or what!?!?!)

Then I found other friends here too... 'Beech, Alex, Savannah... :five: and many others and now I come here to see what's up with all my friends.

Most of the time I spend online (or off for that matter) I am taking a break from writing or other work and just want to relax and have fun :haha: and honestly I get a kick out of watching you guys fight over bolts or some other thing that if you walked away for a year you would laugh at.

Bottom line - I see the need for both groups. Take away competition and we get fat and lazy. The only ones we compete with are those we respect and want to be a part of! If you all did not see something in Bogley or Canyons that you want/like/need .. you would not bother with it at all. :rockon:

Like it or not guys ... Tom, Rich, Shane, Ram.... you are the GUYS! You do CARE :twisted: about each other or you would be apathetic about each other.

Like whip-cream on a sundae is Bo, Hank and Brian! Those are the GUYS too, but Rich is ACA, Shane is Bogley, Ram is Canyons, Tom is THE Emperor, but Brian's wit I adore and Hank's frankness is great and Bo's skill and knowledge is undeniable. There are others but being around as long as I have now, these were the first names that caught my attention, they were in that original ACA disagreement [all but Bo! who has steered clear of most of it](The historic ACA drama I think is the root of all this evil!!!! or at least the culmination of it at that time) even though so many more of you are very much THE CANYONEER too!

PS - I hate rules :nono: (being controlled)!
The rules in both groups suck. :lol8:
But yes, I understand :roll: the need for them.

By the way -- I have no idea what you are all fighting about this time and have not read any of the threads. I was just bored and up early and thought I would say all that stuff. My guess, however, is the fight is the same one that has been going on for the last several years, so I am probably safe with all I said.

[accadacca]

Occasionally these turf wars arise and we have to go over the us and them garbage. The difference I see with Bogley is that we like to have fun. I enjoy logging on, kicking my shoes off, and socializing. I don't personally jump on here to debate or sit in a lecture. If I wanted that I would head back to the University or chat with my grandpa. There is certainly great discussion on Bogley and we all learn from each other. If fun isn't in your vernacular then you might not always enjoy the banter that takes place on Bogley. That's really too bad because many enjoy the character (or characters) on Bogley and I often have a smile on my face when I visit Bogley. I think its just more serious on the Yahoo Groups. To each his own.

It all boils down to this concept for me. If the experts care about the long term health, stability and good name of their sport then they participate on sites like Bogley and others. The sport will evolve and carry on WITH or WITHOUT them. The people who care about the sport will teach others. This includes hanging out on Bogley and other sites where "noobs" hang out. However "noobs" hang everywhere, including the Yahoo Groups. The people who care about themselves only and not the sport will continue to ridicule the "noobs" and keep all the secrets to themselves. Now there are MANY experts that do hang out on Bogley and pass along the trade to the next generation. Sometimes their tactics rub people wrong, but many times their expertise is passed along for the next generation to learn from.

Again, the sport will carry on with or without the experts. Those that care about the sport that they love will teach the apprentices, who will carry on the legacy of the great sport of Canyoneering.

[Felicia]

I do not believe that there is a movement to "change Bogley" or "pit one group against the other". I see no "turf war". I see a request for an occasional place to meet and have a serious discussion.

Why can't there be a serious discussion once and awhile? What if I don't want to PLAY ALL the time?

If the thread was clearly titled ie: Learning Opportunity would the rest of the group give some respect to those that want to participate without all the derailing?

Tanya is correct, if you do not want a serious discussion, don't read that thread.......

:ne_nau:





2. People who participate on Bogley but not on Canyons are an important constituency for the kind of information a good debrief would generate. Less politely, the technical level at Bogley in general is not as high as the technical level at Canyons Group, and Bogleyites are more likely to repeat the same mistakes unless they are made extremely clear. Canyons Group certainly includes a wide range of abilities, and Bogley certainly has the advantage that people with little technical knowledge or canyon experience have no compunctions about posting and sharing their opinions. (see the next point).

3. To me, one of the factors that needs to be discussed is what I call "the Bogley attitude", by which I mean the attitude that this stuff is not really all that technical, so there is not that much to know. My comments in an effective debrief would take aim squarely at this attitude, and would hopefully penetrate some of the hard-headed, anti-technicality of the Bogley environment.

[Felicia]

Question:

Does anyone want to occasionally have a serious discussion?


:ne_nau:

[Scott P]

..........

[tanya]

Canyons: Also RAM is a wonderful moderator. If you don't reply to something you should, he will email you and beyond that he will also communicate with you off the group and encourage you to do things in person. The man cares about his group likes it's his baby. He pets those old experts, which takes time, patience and skill and encourages the new guys.

This is not saying those at Bogley (I am one of them) :lol8: are not good, its just saying RAM is exceptional at this and its personal with him.

ACA: Rich is not so good at this, but he has other talents.

Bogley: Shane we either love him or hate him, but either way he entertains us.

[ratagonia]

If the complaint is that we don't cater only to the experts, don't expect that to change. If the high society wants to keep in their shitty Yahoo format and stay away from the commoners, let 'em.

The Yahoo Group member is the type of person that prints out their emails and stacks the paper on their desk, then deletes the email. They say "it's easier to find this way". They want to show more than 5 pictures to a friend, so they burn it to a CD and mail it to them. They don't agree with all of these fancy schmancy photo hosting services. And then they ask for the CD back in a month so they can mail it to somebody else.

These are the same people who forward you that email saying something will pop up on your screen after you forward that to 11 other people.

You know all of those funny email video clips you've sent them? Yeah, they've burned them to a CD just in case this whole internet thing is a fad.

The Yahoo Groups is just one step ahead of being Pen Pals to a group of people. When emoticons came along, it blew their freakin' minds.

So, why "all of the experts are on Yahoo Groups" is beyond me. If they're just trying to stay in a civilized place where they can talk about the correct color of helmet in the month of August, then I would call that...... sheltered.

Thanks, Beech. Made my point exactly.

And don't show those old pictures of Shane - we're all happy that he changed his life around!

Tom

[ratagonia]

This has been interesting. I am a silent follower of the yahoo site. Hard to follow the format and if your not in the loop your an outsider? Everyone keeps stating that the yahoo site has a higher degree of technical posts? I agree there are probably more people on yahoo with vast technical experience but where are all these technical posts? I am probably wrong but I cannot think of a discussion on yahoo about how to handle ? The feeling I get on yahoo is most everyone already knows how to handle every imaginable problem that could occur so they just don't discuss it? The ACA site use to be a great place to go for technical questions but there does not seem to be many posting there anymore.

I can't decide after reading this thread if I have been doing a disservice by trying to get noob type technical discussions going because I haven't done xyz x rated canyon? If this is the feeling out there and I am putting people at risk by putting ideas in their heads please let me know and I will gladly stop and just follow along?

Mark

Both groups have their strengths and their weaknesses. Ram and I discuss "why noobs don't post on Canyons" and "How can we get something interesting going". I know he has asked you to post (noob) questions over there. It CAN be dead dead dead over there.

I like that there is more friendly banter over here, excepting SOBs like Sombeech. Or maybe I should say, when it is friendly. I like that people ask noob questions. Part of the problem HERE is that when Mark asks a noob question, a whole bunch of noobs respond with lame answers, and then the thread gets drawn away from usefulness and into things like what Tanya can do with 3' of duct tape and a silk rope (it was silk, wasn't it Tanya? Red silk if my memory serves, still left a mark...). Yes, it is great to have a place where lots of people participate, but in general, the technical level over here is quite low (is it not?).

Canyons group - dull dull dull. Dominated by a few players who have high technical skills (assuming you label the skills Ram has a 'high technical skills', which they are not traditionally); but very little technical discussion and the noobs are intimidated into silence mostly.

Bogley group - fun fun fun. Dominated by a few players who love yakking it up, but for the most part lack any technical depth; so its easy to get a discussion going here, just difficult to learn anything worthwhile over here.

Vive la difference! For better or worse I play in both sandboxes, and spend a lot of time cringing over here!

T

[Sombeech]

If you guys want a thread about technique, post it in the title or beginning description - which is already being done, so there should be no problem. If you want it to stay serious, do the same.

This will fend off the casual forum posters, and attract the serious ones who have something to contribute to your thread.

Almost everybody would respect this, and again, feel free to ask the moderators to clean it up if they don't.

If you want to open up a debate/politics/argument thread, don't expect it to stay on track. I fully support serious discussion, you just have to start it off right, don't try to make it serious on the 3rd page.

The control is in your hands.

[ratagonia]

If you guys want a thread about technique, post it in the title or beginning description - which is already being done, so there should be no problem. If you want it to stay serious, do the same.

This will fend off the casual forum posters, and attract the serious ones who have something to contribute to your thread.

Almost everybody would respect this, and again, feel free to ask the moderators to clean it up if they don't.

If you want to open up a debate/politics/argument thread, don't expect it to stay on track. I fully support serious discussion, you just have to start it off right, don't try to make it serious on the 3rd page.

The control is in your hands.

Thank you.

Tom :moses:

[moab mark]

If the powers to be of this site do not see the power of some of the seasoned players over at canyon. Go back and read thru the moab bogley posts when Ram offered to meet some of us in the furnace the day before. We were jumping over ourselves to be able to tag along. When the fest started several in the groups that I lead expressed how they tried every way possible to change their schedules to of been able to make that day.

Mark

[Brian in SLC]

Interesting to compare the two sites, or, three if you include the now fairly dead ACA forum (I can't access, not a dues paying member, which is kind of a bummer but not worth ponying up for dues).

Some random thoughts.

"Control" over content has always been an issue/problem. I think the yahoo egroup does some moderation of so called "trouble makers" which can change the tone for some folks. Its fairly rare on Bogley to see someone have to actually delete content. I like that the admins will carve off threads. But, they can't do that on the egroup. That almost forces restraint and maybe some moderation. The format makes it hard.

Hank probably nailed it. The three letter word. E to the G to the O.

Yeah, we all got 'em. Some more fragile than others. Some larger than others.

More technical expertise on canyons egroup? No way. Scroll down through the content on this site. You don't get too far when you hit Rich Carlson getting educated by Bo Beck. You see that on canyons? Maybe in the past, but, there hasn't been a decent technical discussion on that site in maybe years.

I think one of the differences here is you get a very wide mix of abilities and backgrounds, some so-called "newbs" and some fairly seasoned folks. On canyons, the posters are fairly static. There hasn't been much recharge of new folks. Was a bit in the past, and, because of the kinda stoic nature of the responses, folks asking the same ol' questions (what rope to get, etc), it got fairly mundane. The more lively content here makes it a bit more exciting, and, for better or worse, it ends up being also entertaining. And, frankly, fun.

There's a ton of the pot calling the kettle black here. Scroll down, you don't go too far before you see folks taking potshots on this thread at each other to getting along just fine and complementing each other.

So, why the rancor? Interesting to think about. I add to it from time to time. But, I'll have to say as far as Bogley is concerned, I really don't get into here with folks as much. Maybe folks, due to the kinda wild west-eque content here, have thicker skin? Maybe I've posted for a much longer time "over there" and I only pop in to cause trouble, uhh, I mean to lend my opinion.

Like it or not, this is kinda the place. I like it. Neat that folks can imbed pictures, link to website, video, etc. It's a "modern" website. The egroup thing really has gone the way of the dodo. Its amazing that the canyons egroup is still plugging along. Most egroups probably aren't. Anymore, I think the egroup thing is mostly for closed conversation between folks, which, is how the group has kind of devolved.

Maybe there's less respect here. Maybe respect is earned. Maybe being more tolerant of other folks' opinions would be better. There isn't just ONE WAY to do some stuff. And, debating (sometimes endlessly!) some techniques and styles ad naseum can be entertaining for some, educational for others, but, the free flow of information is a good thing. Also seems to degrade into unpleasantness. Folks will make up their own minds, and, not be forced to do something a certain way. And, some people will get the occasional painful reminder of that.

There's a ton of technical horsepower here. I'd argue much more than on the egroup. I wish Dean, Kip, Matt, Dave etc were here. Not sure why they aren't. Maybe just too much effort. But, my bet is folks who consider themselves the "gurus" of the sport spend WAY more time looking at content on this site, rather than the egroup. You know who you are....ha ha.

The better trip reports are here. Accidents are reported here. Newsworthy canyoneering info is here. How often does one site reference a conversation of the other? I've never got an email to cross post something I've posted on the egroup to Bogley. I've got a ton the other way. That's telling. And, for better or worse, the site has entertainment value (and if you're bored, you could always surf another forum!).

I really think the egroup will go the way of rec.climbing. The hotspots on the 'net evolve and either folks evolve with them, or, they don't. Kind of an interesting study.

Anyhoo, enough spray. Always good to stay tuned!

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[tanya]

I know they are been very few times I would read such a long post ... but I do LOVE Brian's WIT.

:lobby:

[Jaxx]

well I got through 1.5 pages of pissing contest and got to bored with it to read the rest. Should there be a new topic for us to post in or should I just post it here, 4 pages in?

I can post some stuff that we have talked about but I am sure my dad will post once he gets sobered up enough to post. He just got done with surgery on his knee.

Jaxx
Bogley noob

[Scott Card]

The rules (at the moment) are: the ball is in the principles's court to shoot next - first to provide information in response to the questions, then to provide a self-critique before everyone else (for instance, Scott Card) jumps all over their case.

Those guys have done an excellent job of communicating and laying it all out to date - the best I ever have seen! I hope they will continue to play (though they may get weary of the whole thing); but at the moment we are in a waiting pattern. I hope people will respect that and give it space.

Tom

Sorry it is long. What did you expect? Wow, I gotta pay attention. I sort of ignored this thread because of the spitting match that I figured would happen, and it did. Then, old Tom :moses: calls me out for like the third time for jumping the gun on the "debriefing" threads and then has the audacity to say I was "jumping all over their case"? Uh, no. Call me out, fine. But please don

[Iceaxe]

OK.... here is my 2 cents.....

What I see mostly in this thread is arguing over how to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic....

For those that haven't figured it out yet here is the deal... Yahoo is not putting any money or resources into the Yahoo Groups. Yahoo is letting the groups die as they have done with other unprofitable areas of their empire. The Canyon group is one of the few Yahoo groups that is still healthy... and that is largely a result of the outstanding effort and time Ram puts into keeping it on life support....

The way I see it.... eventually the Yahoo gang will be looking for a new home.... I hope that the majority of them will feel welcome at Bogley. Bogley (as with all forums) takes on the character of those who post.... The inmates run the asylum.... err... something like that....

So.... instead of arguing over who has the bigger daddy parts.... now might be a good time to unite a large portion of the canyon community under one umbrella...... With Yahoo killing off its groups and the ACA closing shop (at least to non-members) its a point in time offering opportunity....

Anyhoo..... food for thought.....

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/181204/giantpopcorn.gif

[CarpeyBiggs]

instead of arguing over who has the bigger daddy parts.... now might be a good time to unite a large portion of the canyon community under one umbrella...... With Yahoo killing off its groups and the ACA closing shop (at least to non-members) its a point in time offering opportunity....

I don't think there is any arguing, though I do agree with you. Would be nice to have one active group, instead of two.

The problem is trust. And we know that a handful of the active posters over there don't trust you, based on your history on the yahoo group. They don't wanna deal with the shane-drama. How would one have a guarantee that you wouldn't act like you have in the past?

That said, you have been behaving very nicely the last year or so. What happened to drama-shane? :roflol:

:popcorn:

[ratagonia]

OK.... here is my 2 cents.....

What I see mostly in this thread is arguing over how to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic....

For those that haven't figured it out yet here is the deal... Yahoo is not putting any money or resources into the Yahoo Groups. Yahoo is letting the groups die as they have done with other unprofitable areas of their empire. The Canyon group is one of the few Yahoo groups that is still healthy... and that is largely a result of the outstanding effort and time Ram puts into keeping it on life support....

The way I see it.... eventually the Yahoo gang will be looking for a new home.... I hope that the majority of them will feel welcome at Bogley. Bogley (as with all forums) takes on the character of those who post.... The inmates run the asylum.... err... something like that....

So.... instead of arguing over who has the bigger daddy parts.... now might be a good time to unite a large portion of the canyon community under one umbrella...... With Yahoo killing off its groups and the ACA closing shop (at least to non-members) its a point in time offering opportunity....

Anyhoo..... food for thought.....

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/181204/giantpopcorn.gif

Yah, kinda. But...

First rule of system engineering: always have at least two ways of doing everything!

One reason it is hard to get 100% market share - people have different tastes. Some people cannot stand Bogley, some people never will stand Bogley. Bogley has a strong flavor, which will rub some people the wrong way.

One 'reason' to keep the Yahoo group on Yahoo is that, in theory, it is an easy place for people to find. Hmmm, then again, I think that theory might have been true 5 years ago, but has less truthiness today.

Might see some changes there in the future...

Tom

[Iceaxe]

The problem is trust. And we know that a handful of the active posters over there don't trust you, based on your history on the yahoo group. They don't wanna deal with the shane-drama. How would one have a guarantee that you wouldn't act like you have in the past?

It would take a lot of give and take on both sides to make it happen

[moab mark]

Bogley's format is being discussed on the yahoo site. A question came up that I have wondered also. On the ACA site when you receive an email alert you can scan down and read the message. Is this possible on bogley?

Mark

[Don]

Bogley's format is being discussed on the yahoo site. A question came up that I have wondered also. On the ACA site when you receive an email alert you can scan down and read the message. Is this possible on bogley?

Mark

A link (below) was posted at the Yahoo group about email intergration with a forum. I doubt I would use it (unless Bogley eventually gets blocked at work) but can something like this be applied here?

http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=151222

[CarpeyBiggs]

there is a mod for phpBB2, but i am not sure if it works on phpBB3. i asked the question up in the "bogley support" forum, we'll see what 'beech and acca say.

in the phpBB forums, sounded like there had been a few issues implementing it.

[accadacca]

The benefit to using Yahoo is that they handle the nuts and bolts. The benefit to using Bogley as Shane mentioned in another thread is that we handle the nuts and bolts. I have had many long nights with white knuckles on the keyboard keeping Bogley running for 5 years. It takes a long term commitment to keep these types of sites running and it can get very complicated. Many times my wife wishes I didn't have this burden, but I love helping facilitate the sharing of outdoor information.

Luckily I do this for a living and I know people that can help me manage Bogley. Of course all the moderators help manage their respective areas and Sombeech does quite a bit to piss everyone off. Nah, beech does a lot behind the scenes to help maintain this site and he has been a HUGE help. He has spent many long nights with me trying to solve problems. I also pay a server guy, he helps me maintain and configure the server. Bogley has been moved to 5 different servers (hosting companies) in 5 years. It took me 2 weeks to get the site moved this last time. Migrating all the data and making sure everything gets moved and is running properly = major pain in the ass. All of this really takes dedication and can eat up your time and patience. Especially when you have a problem and everyone starts breathing down your neck to get it fixed. Not fun. I am also in charge of keeping all the data and content safe and backed-up. Imagine if we had a hard drive crash and we lost all this data. Disaster. I also have access to web developers, database administrators, graphic artists, frontend engineers and user interface designers to name just a few. All of these resources have helped over the years. With all this considered there are nearly 20 people with their hands on bogley on any given day. This could be a typical moderator or on the technical spectrum it could be a developer editing code or my server guy optimizing the queries.

We do our fair share of making fun of the Yahoo Groups, but the truth is there isn't much for the owners to worry about. The code, servers, etc is all maintained and handled by Yahoo. All they have to do as owners is manage the content. It is a completely different story managing your own forum software. I understand the politics behind the canyoneering community. Let me just say that anyone is welcome on Bogley and we will accommodate, but the owners of the Yahoo groups are of course free to do whatever they think is best. Bogley has very good traffic and is running very strong on a newly installed high-dollar server. We have 5 years and counting of archived canyoneering content and we aren't going anywhere. :five:

[tanya]

KUDOS to Scott and Beech for their countless hours of work to keep us all addicted to the internet!!! Serious! You guys rock!!!

:hail2thechief: :hail2thechief: :hail2thechief:

I have had 3 yahoo groups (Zion, Grand Canyon, High IQ - no politics allowed for good reason! lol) for about 10 years or more.. (actually had one more that got buggy and yahoo could not fix it so it was deleted after being very active for years - a politics only group - it was good it died. It got hundreds of posts a day and I deleted it after the war had began) These groups were clubs prior to being groups and clubs were so much more active!

There is a lot of work to having a good one. I already explained the extremes RAM goes to so his stays active. Yahoo Groups are not as easy to find in a search engine as a BBS so therefore the moderators have to do invites and find people to invite - usually they do not know these people. Bogley had a great base using off-line friends of Justin's and Scott's and then Rock and Shane joined and added their canyoneering fan club. I spent a couple of years or more doing invites every single day and posting news articles as well as getting conversations started - this was while pregnant and having 4 of my 5 kids. I assume Shane was probably doing the same thing with his yahoo group (not the pregnant part lol). Now, I have left the groups to survive on their own via just posting and hoping those there keep them going.... I am no longer going to spend the time to do it.

Then there is the spammers -- have to deal with those, but yahoo did add spam filters that help and all new posters are moderated.

All that said.... once a yahoo group has posters, there is nothing to keeping them going, but for them to thrive you need to do the constant invites. (anyone want to do that for me. lol)



Again! Thank you Scott and Justin!

[asdf]

I understand the politics behind the canyoneering community.

As if thats even possible :haha: