Larry Canyon Debrief Part I: Trip Choice and Preparation

[ratagonia]

Please read debrief format before posting to this thread.

Part I will discuss everything up to entering the canyon, including choice of partners and canyon, choice of stuff brought along and events at the start of the day. This will allow the 'players' to introduce themselves and provide information about their background (aka 'resume').

Here are the relevant paragraphs from the story told to date:

[quote=Chungy22]
I am Nick's (jaxx's) little bro and the hiker that was not injured in this whole ordeal. Have fun reading.

Larry Canyon 2009

We decided to go on one last canyoneering trip before the snow came in and would not allow us to backpack in the beautiful southern Utah slot canyons. My Dad and I were very excited about this weekend. We were going to first go to camp inbetween the Larry Canyon entrance and exit so that we could start from there in the morning.

The voyage down was pretty uneventful. We left Orem around 4 PM on Friday December 4th. We went to scout where the canyons were that we were going to hike. We were going to hike Larry Canyon on Saturday and then the shorter Alcatraz Canyon on Sunday before we left. We drove to the first rappel in Alcatraz and it is supposed to be 165

[ratagonia]

a matter of timing.

[quote=TNTRebel]
Maybe this belongs in the new blog started by ratagonia, but I'll post here first...What gear did we carry and what was the gear that saved us, and what did we

[ratagonia]

OK. Where to start?
Most of my comments will be from what my dad told me. He can come on here and defend himself, I will spread the gossip and rumors.


They were trying to hurry in the canyon because of the late start so they could find the exit in the daylight. They downclimbed alot of stuff already that had been bolted so this wasn't a worry. Dad got to a point where he felt he couldn't go any farther and turned to tell chungy that he needed the rope. He slipped as he was turning to tell him. Landed facing down hitting his waterbottle and camera case that were strapped to the front of his backpack straps and also hitting his forehead on rock. The helmet saved his life.

Obviously have a rope in the ready while downclimbing just in case. Is this really a valid option? I have never set up a rope before downclimbing. The point is to save time. Mabey more valid is know your limits?

They stayed calm and he stabilized his knee with a makeshift splint out of webbing and backpack frame. A+ IMHO.

got to the last 2 raps, running out of daylight. Discussed options and decided to push 911 on the SPOT.
Other options were to have Chungy hike out and call for help Or help dad out in the morning, taking a seriously long time and possible second bivy night in the canyon.

gathered firewood, built small windshield out of rocks. took inventory of food and water. They were good for the night for sure. A+

Now this is where I come in:

We should have tried to lower stuff to them. Water and real food. We had beef stew and other stuff in the car. We had 1.5 gallons of water in our backpacks. We had warm weather clothes and about 470 ft. of rope on us. It would have been a difficult throw but we should have tried atleast. It dropped a couple of times with 50ft wide shelfs inbetween a 100 ft and 250 ft drop. so about 100 ft out and 350 feet down. I doubt we could have made it past the two shelves.

We should have gone back in in the morning and found the exit crack. We had to wait for SAR to get there so we could direct them to Dad and chungy.
We could have taken Chungy out in the morning. We thought the heli would take everyone out so we didn't worry about a plan B.

When SAR got there we showed them where they were and just sat back.

They sent the whole rap team in. No one was left up top who knew any ropework from SAR.
Obviously that shouldn't have happened.

When it was getting later we should have offered to go down to the bottom just incase they needed help from the bottom. Plan B.

We should have taken the litter out with the ropes they had set up. We should have also lowered water,food, and headlamps to SAR and Chungy.

We could have set up a haul system and hauled them out but they wouldn't let Chad and I do anything with their ropes, liability reasons.

I should be better at navigating. I get lost all the time. The dark just added to that. I can't describe the feeling other than disheartening not being able to find the exit crack, failure would suffice.

Better maps would be awesome. The map we had was printed out quickly before we ran out the door and it didn't show alot of detail.

Chungy had a GPS. It ran out of batteries and he didn't know how to use it. The coords for the exit crack were marked.
Make sure others know how to use your GPS. It ran out of batteries and they gave up on it. Dad ALWAYS has extra batteries. the SPOT had fresh batteries in it they could have used.

Dont try to get out of that canyon with the horse trail. it is unmarked and difficult to find, even in the light. It is in a different wash seperated by hills.

So having a plan B would have saved the second heli. If I hadn't been so lax and mabey a little more proactive it could have helped alot. Finding that exit in the light would have changed everything.

SUMMARY:
HAVE A PLAN B EVEN IF PLAN A IS A DEFINITE. Make sure you can successfully carry out plan B (find the exit in the light so you don't have to try to in the dark)

Don't lower crap into the canyon until you know you need it.

Don't take your whole team into the canyon. Leave a ropework guy uptop

Don't wear doc martin's into a canyon. Even if you think you will be air lifted out.

Always carry your own food, water, headlamps just incase you have to hike out in the dark.

We should have lowered the needed gear to SAR and lifted out the litter before we pulled their ropes.

I need better orienteering skills.

Learn to use GPS even if you don't own one.

I learned that SAR had my dad and Chungy drink a bunch of their own water because they were getting dehydrated waiting for the heli. That is why they didn't have any water while hiking.

SAR told my dad they aren't trained in high angle rescue so that wasn't an option for them to haul them back up to the top. down or heli were the two options for them. I didn't know this until we were home.

SPOT called SAR dispatch and told them that they recieved a 911 cancelled message and SAR called off the search. SPOT should have never made that call and I am currently in an email "discussion" with them about that.
The Sherriff told us he would have made sure to make contact with us before totally cancelling the search.
Because SPOT called dispatch the SAR guys were postponed in the morning.


Deputize the two dudes that helped out! :five:

[ratagonia]

[quote=ratagonia]a matter of timing.

[quote=TNTRebel]
Maybe this belongs in the new blog started by ratagonia, but I'll post here first...What gear did we carry and what was the gear that saved us, and what did we

[moab mark]

I have found these posts educational and I am going to get more prepared in the future. I'm looking for some opinions if the spot had not come thru what would of been the best plan at that point? How long would of it been before your families would of known you were missing?

Again thanks for all of the posts they have opened my eyes up to if something goes south.

Mark

[ratagonia]

I have found these posts educational and I am going to get more prepared in the future. I'm looking for some opinions if the spot had not come thru what would of been the best plan at that point? How long would of it been before your families would of known you were missing?

Again thanks for all of the posts they have opened my eyes up to if something goes south.

Mark

That sounds like the question: did Chungy have the skills and resources to complete the final raps, hike to the exit, climb to the rim and make the distress call (on Sunday morning, at first light)? Sun coming up about 7, seems like could get to the car about 10:30ish? Cell phone in the car? Signal available from there?

Tom

[CarpeyBiggs]

(damn moderator malfunction... this is TNTrebel's response. i accidentally split it off when split the topic. now i have to figure out how to move it back.)

[quote=TNTrebel]Sorry for the delay in posting and this post will not provide what ya

[Chungy22]

1. Who are you, what is your experience, what is your training? A brief resume of canyons done and your role in prior adventures (leader, follower, heckler) and conditions (ie, have you done stuff in winter before), plus any training you have had either formal or informal, and with whom, plus age and general fitness level. Please include First Aid/Medical training in that resume. TNT-had you had knee problems previously?

Well, I am 22 and in very good shape. Not the best of my life, but still in very good condition to hike and rappel all day. I am an avid soccer player so fitness is usually not too big an issue for me. Honestly for the experience that I have and then training. It hasn't been too much. I have always gone rappelling with just my Dad. I have been through, I think, 3 canyons besides this one. I have been through two canyons in the Blue John area and then through Granary canyon near Moab. All of those canyons were pretty technical especially Granary. I have always been the follower in those canyons and Larry canyon was kind of the first one that I setup the rappels under the supervision of my Dad. We have done canyons in the early spring before when it was very cold, but never in the winter before. I have only been trained by my Dad both in the canyon and at the Hansen

[Chungy22]

That sounds like the question: did Chungy have the skills and resources to complete the final raps, hike to the exit, climb to the rim and make the distress call (on Sunday morning, at first light)? Sun coming up about 7, seems like could get to the car about 10:30ish? Cell phone in the car? Signal available from there?


Sorry i am not sure how exactly to do a quote from someone.

anyway.... to answer that. I think that I would have had enough water and food to get me the rest of the way out of the canyon and finish the last rappels. I set a few of the earlier rappels in the canyon and then rappelled just fine down them in the dark with SAR. The only thing that would have been difficult would have been finding the exit crack. If my Dad showed me how to use the GPS I think that I would have been able to do that. We decided the first night in the canyon that if there wasn't anyone who contacted us either I would hike out alone and call someone or we would try to hike out together. We did have a signal from where we were and it would not have been too hard to get all the way to the car for me. Especially if I knew that my Dad was still just sitting in the canyon. The thing that worried both of us though was having to split up. We probably would have tried to get my dad down the last two rappels and as far as he could go before we split up.

[ratagonia]

That sounds like the question: did Chungy have the skills and resources to complete the final raps, hike to the exit, climb to the rim and make the distress call (on Sunday morning, at first light)? Sun coming up about 7, seems like could get to the car about 10:30ish? Cell phone in the car? Signal available from there?


Sorry i am not sure how exactly to do a quote from someone.

anyway.... to answer that. I think that I would have had enough water and food to get me the rest of the way out of the canyon and finish the last rappels. I set a few of the earlier rappels in the canyon and then rappelled just fine down them in the dark with SAR. The only thing that would have been difficult would have been finding the exit crack. If my Dad showed me how to use the GPS I think that I would have been able to do that. We decided the first night in the canyon that if there wasn't anyone who contacted us either I would hike out alone and call someone or we would try to hike out together. We did have a signal from where we were and it would not have been too hard to get all the way to the car for me. Especially if I knew that my Dad was still just sitting in the canyon. The thing that worried both of us though was having to split up. We probably would have tried to get my dad down the last two rappels and as far as he could go before we split up.

Thanks Chungy. That second rappel at the end is really awkward, and would have been hard to do with a smashed knee. Depending on exactly where the anchor was set up, it could be a very hard start. So it would have been challenging to get your Dad down that, just the two of you. It would, however, have made the evac much easier, as a litter could have been carried to a helicopter landing spot.

Will be interested to see what your Dad has to say to these questions.

Tom :moses:

[TNTRebel]

1. Who are you, what is your experience, what is your training? A brief resume of canyons done and your role in prior adventures (leader, follower, heckler) and conditions (ie, have you done stuff in winter before), plus any training you have had either formal or informal, and with whom, plus age and general fitness level. Please include First Aid/Medical training in that resume. TNT-had you had knee problems previously?

Thanks. Tom

TNTRebel - 28 years ago I wanted to be an Ambulance Driver and Firefighter, so I started training with a local group of volunteers in Richfield Utah. We tried a few rappels for training (scaring the bejeebees out of me and going into a fully engulfed house that was donated to test our firefighting skills. I went through the EMT training and became certified as an EMT and eventually as a CPR instructor. Eventually learning I could have fun in the career, but couldn

[TNTRebel]

2. What was the process by which you chose to do this particular canyon, over many other available options?


I and Jaxx have had our eye on this canyon since we did the epic journey from Main Blue John through Horseshoe canyon. We were looking for a canyon that may not include water, but we were prepared incase we hit some, but were hoping for no water. Which is what we found. Some of the potholes would have been impossible to pass without getting wet if they had water. We were planning on stripping down, putting on our water socks and hoping for the best drying off and getting dressed on the other side. We both had neoprene socks just incase we got too cold. I went through Lost Spring canyon with my daughter the weekend before and didn

[TNTRebel]

3. What information did you gather about this canyon and from where?
Climb-Utah.com and CanyoneeringUSA.com are our favorite places for information on canyons in Utah. I was very concerned about the exit and how difficult it was going to be and find. I

[TNTRebel]

4. What did you bring in your packs for the day, and why?

-Maps and instructions of Larry

[dbaxter]

Thanks for all you've shared! This is really helpful.

[TNTRebel]

5. Also, a couple more specific questions like where did you camp? (sounds like on the slickrock area at the top of Alcatraz).

We camped 2 miles from the entrance to Larrys Canyon, and about 1.5 miles from the top of the exit to Larry

[TNTRebel]

5. What do you mean by 'you will always have a belay' (do you mean that you provide an active belay, or just that the anchor is backed up (to meat) with the other part of the rope)?

Depends on if we are with a group of Young Men or not

[TNTRebel]

Thanks for all you've shared! This is really helpful.
You all have been very nice, maybe cause I'm a nob at this forum, but thanks for the kind words, and now you can start shooting...

[Chungy22]

I told you he would be more thorough on getting you information. I am very glad that he was so detailed about everything. It gives a better idea about what we have done. I have done almost all of those non-technical canyons with him as well. I just specified the technical canyons in my post. And like Tntrebel I would like to thank everyone for not beating on us too bad. There were mistakes made, but we have learned from them and will implement those lessons in the canyons that we do in the future.

[ratagonia]

And like Tntrebel I would like to thank everyone for not beating on us too bad.

Yet.




ha ha... well, it IS Christmas time.

The amount of detail provided is wonderful. Much criticism takes place in an environment based on few details and lots of assumptions. By providing massive amounts of detail, you have short-circuited the usual internet path of unproductive discussion.



There were mistakes made, but we have learned from them and will implement those lessons in the canyons that we do in the future.

Mmm, yeah...

The NEXT step is for you to point out the lessons you have learned, and then we can open it to general discussion

I think it would be a better place to view it from, if you take the viewpoint that you do NOT YET know the lessons from this incident, and keep an open mind as to what those lessons are.

Tom :moses:

[Chungy22]

There are a lot of lessons that can be learned from this experience. I am sure that I won't recognize all of them for quite a while, but one of the main ones that I learned was that I need to be prepared to handle the worst circumstances. I was very grateful that Tntrebel and I were prepared to spend the night in that canyon. I know a lot of hikers that would not have been able to do that (because of water, food, or clothing).

[Chungy22]

Another lesson that I learned and that Tntrebel has taught my brothers and I for a long time and that he learned himself the hard way on this trip was to never take chances. That means if you can be safe the BE SAFE! don't just skip safety to save time. This is a very good example of how you can just choose that one time and it will come back and bite you in the butt or knee! ;) I know that now Tntrebel is going to be even more cautious about safety and making sure that no one is taking or has to take chances when going through a canyon.

[Chungy22]

A third lesson is to never panic! I am very glad that Tntrebel and I were able to keep our heads and once we decided to spend the night in the canyon that we didn't freak out and just sit down and try to survive that way. We got to work gathering firewood and making a shelter for us to sleep in, which I guess is two lessons: One: not to panic and Two: That working or keeping yourself busy helps you not to panic. It keeps your mind off the present predicament and gives you hope that this is going to turn out well. I can imagine that just sitting there and waiting for someone you rescue you can be a very bleak and depressing aspect. You are left to your thoughts about how you might not get out of there or how you might have to suffer a lot before you do get out of there.

[ratagonia]

Preparation for Critical Comments - ie, don't take it personal, but...

I think enough time has passed that critical comments can be entertained without inflicting too much emotional damage...

Thank you to TNT and Chungy for sharing generously. I have NEVER seen as much information shared about an accident, and it is clear that many of the preconceptions I had were dead wrong.

Let me first say, overall, you guys did a great job in there - most notably of getting out of the technical part of the canyon - and this was KEY to a successful outcome. Immobilized back at the fall location (say, with a fractured tibia, fibia or ankle) would have resulted in a very different outcome. Way to Cowboy UP and git your derriere to the canyon (technical) exit.

In the canyon community, my ARROGANCE is FAMOUS. I AM "The Emperor" after all, and I EARN that title on many occasions, in many different ways. I will attempt to NOT earn it here (in all but Brian Cabe's opinion) by making clear the MORAL nature of my criticism - which is NADA! ZERO! ZIP! There is nothing different that you SHOULD HAVE DONE, ie, that you are or were morally obliged to do. My judgment is that you did pretty darn well, given your lack of depth of experience. I will, however, suggest a LONG LIST of things you COULD have done differently, and that you CAN do differently in the future.

And so forth... coming to a thread near you, in the next hour or two.

And YES, I AM softening you up for a thorough pummeling.

Tom :moses: :moses: :moses: :moses: :moses:

[ratagonia]

A third lesson is to never panic! I am very glad that Tntrebel and I were able to keep our heads and once we decided to spend the night in the canyon that we didn't freak out and just sit down and try to survive that way. We got to work gathering firewood and making a shelter for us to sleep in, which I guess is two lessons: One: not to panic and Two: That working or keeping yourself busy helps you not to panic. It keeps your mind off the present predicament and gives you hope that this is going to turn out well. I can imagine that just sitting there and waiting for someone you rescue you can be a very bleak and depressing aspect. You are left to your thoughts about how you might not get out of there or how you might have to suffer a lot before you do get out of there.

Ah yes, the Psycho Damage lesson, aka the Bad Bivy lesson. Black thoughts will arise. So? There's nothing you can do about that, but there is no profit in listening to or dwelling on the blackness. Keeping busy helps. There is always something you can do to make the situation just a little bit better, even if it is just zoning out, letting the mind go blank and surviving another hour. A round of uncontrollable shivering is usually a good party trick!!

:moses:

[ratagonia]

[quote=ratagonia]
1. Who are you, what is your experience, what is your training? A brief resume of canyons done and your role in prior adventures (leader, follower, heckler) and conditions (ie, have you done stuff in winter before), plus any training you have had either formal or informal, and with whom, plus age and general fitness level. Please include First Aid/Medical training in that resume. TNT-had you had knee problems previously?

Thanks. Tom

TNTRebel - 28 years ago I wanted to be an Ambulance Driver and Firefighter, so I started training with a local group of volunteers in Richfield Utah. We tried a few rappels for training (scaring the bejeebees out of me) and going into a fully engulfed house that was donated to test our firefighting skills. I went through the EMT training and became certified as an EMT and eventually as a CPR instructor. Eventually learning I could have fun in the career, but couldn

[Davewyo]

Tom~In the canyon community, my ARROGANCE is FAMOUS. I AM "The Emperor" after all, and I EARN that title on many occasions, in many different ways. I will attempt to NOT earn it here (in all but Brian Cabe's opinion)

No, I disagree. Several may make that assessment by the time you're done.



First: Questions I have for y'all (TNTRebel and Chungy22) are the following:

1. Who are you, what is your experience, what is your training? A brief resume of canyons done and your role in prior adventures (leader, follower, heckler) and conditions (ie, have you done stuff in winter before), plus any training you have had either formal or informal, and with whom, plus age and general fitness level. Please include First Aid/Medical training in that resume. TNT-had you had knee problems previously?

Maybe it is time that you explain your qualifications for conducting a "debriefing".


Tom ~I'm thinking of heading out there


DiscGo wrote:

Tom- I think you are awesome for your willingness to go out last night. I sure think you are great!



Thanks, but after a long day, it proved unrealistic.

Tom

At least the SAR showed up. A discussion of giving unrealistic hopes to family members and not following through may be appropriate, rather than an anal restructuring of the rescuers and rescuees.
:nono:
Dave

[Jaxx]

uh... well one exception. Taking the 'gals' to Psycho Damage - wazzup with that?!? You kidding, or early evidence of poor decision-making? Totally out of character with the other canyons you have done - musta been quite the challenge! 45 lb pack through there (ha ha).

We actually found that while on the hike up to the bottom of the slot to the grotto. I am not sure if that is the name. We went up there with our families with small kids. Looked like a cool slot to explore so TNTrebel found it on google earth and found a way to get to it from the top. I didn't go with him on the trip back to it but I don't think he knew it was Psycho Damage.

Pretty cool first canyon for a resume though :haha:

[ratagonia]

uh... well one exception. Taking the 'gals' to Psycho Damage - wazzup with that?!? You kidding, or early evidence of poor decision-making? Totally out of character with the other canyons you have done - musta been quite the challenge! 45 lb pack through there (ha ha).

We actually found that while on the hike up to the bottom of the slot to the grotto. I am not sure if that is the name. We went up there with our families with small kids. Looked like a cool slot to explore so TNTrebel found it on google earth and found a way to get to it from the top. I didn't go with him on the trip back to it but I don't think he knew it was Psycho Damage.

Pretty cool first canyon for a resume though :haha:

Interesting. A challenging place to get to, just by looking at the maps. There's a couple of "key" passages that are unlikely, that allow access.

T :moses:

[ratagonia]

Tom~In the canyon community, my ARROGANCE is FAMOUS. I AM "The Emperor" after all, and I EARN that title on many occasions, in many different ways. I will attempt to NOT earn it here (in all but Brian Cabe's opinion)

No, I disagree. Several may make that assessment by the time you're done.



First: Questions I have for y'all (TNTRebel and Chungy22) are the following:

1. Who are you, what is your experience, what is your training? A brief resume of canyons done and your role in prior adventures (leader, follower, heckler) and conditions (ie, have you done stuff in winter before), plus any training you have had either formal or informal, and with whom, plus age and general fitness level. Please include First Aid/Medical training in that resume. TNT-had you had knee problems previously?

Maybe it is time that you explain your qualifications for conducting a "debriefing".


Tom ~I'm thinking of heading out there


DiscGo wrote:

Tom- I think you are awesome for your willingness to go out last night. I sure think you are great!



Thanks, but after a long day, it proved unrealistic.

Tom

At least the SAR showed up. A discussion of giving unrealistic hopes to family members and not following through may be appropriate, rather than an anal restructuring of the rescuers and rescuees.
:nono:
Dave

More properly discussed on this thread:

http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19635

Tom

[Chungy22]

I agree with Jaxx. That is prett intense canyon. When Tntrebel and I want to that canyon we had no idea that it was Phsyco canyon. He just saw that there was a way to get to the Gratto from above. It did take us a little while to get to the cayon, but we did find and we started makin gout way through it. It pinched off pretty quick and then there was a rappel and that I probably didn't have to rappel, but we did and then my wife (then my fiancee) did her first rappel there as well. It was a little scary just because it was very akward. It was a slot that sloped down and then went into a cliff. It was so hard because of the angle and which the rope wanted to pull you and the way that you wanted to go. We eventually made it down without too much incident (She did fall backwards once). Then I looked at the rest of the canyon and I couldn't even get my helmet to fit through it. Our choices were to shimmy our way up and around it, which would put us maybe 20-25 feet above the ground or go back. We decided that because my wife and little sister were there it would be best to hike back. It was way fun and I want to get back down there and finish the canyon and rappel into the Gratto and hike out the other side. I forgot to mention that we had done most of that canyon in my resume! oh well, doesn't make too much of a difference for the criticism I would think! ;) Thanks again for not being too mean on how we could have handled ourselves. I think we did a pretty good job, but that is just me.

[ratagonia]

I agree with Jaxx. That is prett intense canyon. When Tntrebel and I want to that canyon we had no idea that it was Phsyco canyon. He just saw that there was a way to get to the Gratto from above. It did take us a little while to get to the cayon, but we did find and we started makin gout way through it. It pinched off pretty quick and then there was a rappel and that I probably didn't have to rappel, but we did and then my wife (then my fiancee) did her first rappel there as well. It was a little scary just because it was very akward. It was a slot that sloped down and then went into a cliff. It was so hard because of the angle and which the rope wanted to pull you and the way that you wanted to go. We eventually made it down without too much incident (She did fall backwards once). Then I looked at the rest of the canyon and I couldn't even get my helmet to fit through it. Our choices were to shimmy our way up and around it, which would put us maybe 20-25 feet above the ground or go back. We decided that because my wife and little sister were there it would be best to hike back. It was way fun and I want to get back down there and finish the canyon and rappel into the Gratto and hike out the other side. I forgot to mention that we had done most of that canyon in my resume! oh well, doesn't make too much of a difference for the criticism I would think! ;) Thanks again for not being too mean on how we could have handled ourselves. I think we did a pretty good job, but that is just me.

Cool. With more details, it becomes an example of exercising GOOD judgment. We do not use a rope in Psycho Damage.

There are three sections to PD, and I was impressed/horrified that you had done the difficult/exposed downclimb at the start of Section 1 with 'women and children'. Which you did not. Thank you.

T :moses:

[ratagonia]

[quote=ratagonia]2. What was the process by which you chose to do this particular canyon, over many other available options?


I and Jaxx have had our eye on this canyon since we did the epic journey from Main Blue John through Horseshoe canyon. We were looking for a canyon that may not include water, but we were prepared in case we hit some, but were hoping for no water. Which is what we found. Some of the potholes would have been impossible to pass without getting wet if they had water. We were planning on stripping down, putting on our water socks and hoping for the best drying off and getting dressed on the other side. We both had neoprene socks just incase we got too cold.

I went through Lost Spring canyon with my daughter the weekend before and didn

[ratagonia]

[quote=ratagonia]3. What information did you gather about this canyon and from where?
Climb-Utah.com and CanyoneeringUSA.com are our favorite places for information on canyons in Utah. I was very concerned about the exit and how difficult it was going to be and find. I

[Scott P]

With 20-20 hindsight, it seems a slightly odd choice of canyon for you.

In their defense, I can see how someone could choose that canyon.

Usually on the forums (both Canyons and Bogely groups), when someone ask where to go canyoneering in the cold season, the first answers given are usually

[ratagonia]

[quote=ratagonia]4. What did you bring in your packs for the day, and why?

-Maps and instructions of Larry and Alcatraz canyons
-Google earth photo of exit of Larry Canyon, Just cause I was a bit nervous about finding the exit and route finding my way up it
- GPS & Extra lithium batteries for GPS
- SPOT (findmespot.com) & Extra lithium batteries for SPOT (same size and number as GPS, but had replacements for both)
-Pocket knife
-2 feet of duck tape wrapped around a pen, usually have more, but didn

[ratagonia]

With 20-20 hindsight, it seems a slightly odd choice of canyon for you.

In their defense, I can see how someone could choose that canyon.


I can see it too. I did not say it was an INSANE, IRRESPONSIBLE choice, I said it was a poor choice. Better choices were available.

[quote=Scott P]
Anyway, I am a bit confused about the apparent stemming that was mentioned in the trip report. I don

[Scott P]

I did not say it was an INSANE, IRRESPONSIBLE choice, I said it was a poor choice.

I didn't say you did; I was only adding more commentary. On this part, I really wasn't disagreeing.

I agree that it did turn out to be a poor choice in hindsight, but in foresight it probably didn't seem that way. Personally, to me Larry Canyon in December, poor choice or not, still seems more reasonable than say something like the Black Hole which is done every year in the winter.

Also, not to get off topic, but some are intimidated by winter cold and others by summer heat and which is worse or scarier is a matter of opinion. One area that I think we do disagree with is in which is worse or scarier. On another post you hinted at the fact that Larry would be better in summer, but on that part I would disagree. Summer is places like the Roost scares me and the only time I've gone there in summer, I was rather scared. To me, winter is usually (I know conditions are currently bad, but this is not exactly typical for winter) a much more reasonable time for places like the Roost than in summer (which time I would never visit the Roost again). Spring and Fall are obviously ideal for the Roost, but winter is usually fairly reasonable (assuming one is well prepared of course and that conditions aren't unusually bad). If the party had gotten an early start and perhaps had a little more experience, Larry might have been a pretty good choice.

To me it seems like a combination of late start and inexperience caused more problems than the season the canyon was done in, though the lack of daylight could have really complicated things.

[quote]Me: Anyway, I am a bit confused about the apparent stemming that was mentioned in the trip report. I don

[ratagonia]

I agree that it did turn out to be a poor choice in hindsight, but in foresight it probably didn't seem that way. Personally, to me Larry Canyon in December, poor choice or not, still seems more reasonable than say something like the Black Hole which is done every year in the winter.


The question is, was it a reasonable choice for TNT and Chungy?, not whether it is a reasonable choice for Scott and Tom. In the same conditions, Larry would be an excellent choice for you and me, Scott.

Ram has just detailed the good reasons for doing the Hole over on the nerds... uh, Canyons Group. You have done the Black Hole with us - did you think it was that whacko, for an experienced team?

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

[quote=Scott P]
Actually I say downclimb too. I was actually referring to part of the trip report that was posted. This is the part I was referring to:

[i]There was one very skinny slot where we had to choose if we wanted to stay up high about 30

[ratagonia]

Comments, please!

T

[ratagonia]

[quote=ratagonia]5. What do you mean by 'you will always have a belay' (do you mean that you provide an active belay, or just that the anchor is backed up (to meat) with the other part of the rope)?

Depends on if we are with a group of Young Men or not

[Brian in SLC]

Comments, please!

Be careful what you ask for, eh?

Hee hee.


Part of the EXPERIENCE of rappelling (for the Young Men) is the realization that each person is responsible for their OWN safety, and can handle it. An active and obvious top belay detracts considerably from this experience. A bottom belay is inobvious, and while it completes the safety/backup requirements, it gives the rappeller the illusion that if they let go they will fall to their death.

It would add to your safety more to back up the anchors, when they need it, with a meat anchor somewhere back there.====>


I'm goin' to kinda disagree with some of the above. I think a top belay might be less intrusive, its one piece of rope, rather than a sling shot of two strands going to a rappeller. And, I think a bunch of folks TR when they do some climbing, so, they might be used to that safety too.

Although for rigging from an anchor, a bottom belay might be easier but if something is haywire up top, then, its also easier to deal with the up top situation if you're up top, rather than have the experienced person already at the bottom of the drop.

I guess from my perspective, when I've belayed folks rappelling, I'd much rather be on top paying out rope and watching them from above. I think its easier to see and anticipate their mistakes looking down rather than already on the bottom looking up (distance and angle make it hard to see what the rappeller is doing).

A "meat anchor"...that's a tough call for a back up if a person needs help and you're in a narrow canyon and/or a party of two. If you're a party of two, how does one "escape the belay" if you're the meat anchor and your partner needs assistance, and, his weight is on you? A dangerous game to say the least. And, maybe above some folks' pay grade.

You squeeze enough juice oughta this yet? Geez....

Ha ha.

-Brian in SLC

[Chungy22]

The event that triggered the accident was your pack slipping off the edge, then pulling you off. A lighter pack is MUCH easier to manage - the event might not have occured if your pack was "within reason". Then again, Wednesday night quarterbacking is EZ. Choosing what should be brought for an 'unknown' canyon is never ez.


I don't think you really understand why he fell! I don't really agree that a smaller pack is necessarily more safe. When he fell it was because his backup, which was holding him in (maybe because it was bigger) slipped. Not because it was pushing him down, but because he wasn't aware that was holding him up. So when he adjusted it it slipped. It would have happened the same if he would have had a 10lbs pack. My Dad has always had a larger pack and has saved a ton of scouts because of all the extra stuff that he takes. I don't think that he will stop carrying so much to be honest. I think feeling confortable is worth a little heavier pack, but I unerstand why people take smaller packs and I think that they would have been in big trouble if they were in our situation. That is one main reason people die in canyons is because their pack is too small. I have never heard of someone dying because there pack was too big or too heavy.

[Chungy22]

I see what you are trying to achieve, but I suggest there are better ways to achieve the same and better results. What you are doing I would call an "Active Belay from Above". The problems with it are that it is time-and-effort consuming, and inhibits the development of independence by the rappellers. From a philosophical pov, it is something YOU do for or do THEM, rather than something they do for themselves.

Your goals and philosophy may be different than mine, and different guide services do things in different ways. Using a bottom belay, you can provide all the benefits of a top belay (except for the first person, presumably your competent co-leader) without getting in the way of the experience for the young men. AND, the bottom belay can be done by the Young Men so it becomes a teamwork thing (under adult supervision).

On private trips, where our responsibilities for others are less explicit, backup belays are unusual. We use them A. with true beginners (such as Chungy, perhaps); B. for long rappels (over 100'); C. for raps with awkward starts.

Part of the EXPERIENCE of rappelling (for the Young Men) is the realization that each person is responsible for their OWN safety, and can handle it. An active and obvious top belay detracts considerably from this experience. A bottom belay is inobvious, and while it completes the safety/backup requirements, it gives the rappeller the illusion that if they let go they will fall to their death.

I do however agree with this, but I don't think that Tntrebel is about to abandon this any time soon. I would like to go down on my own and learn how to rely upon myself to get down, which we did quite a bit in Larry canyon with no issues.

[ratagonia]

I don't think you really understand why he fell! I don't really agree that a smaller pack is necessarily more safe.

Welcome to the world of canyoneering, Chungy, where smaller packs are safer.

The POINT of this conversation, Chungy, is for you to re-evaluate your firmly held beliefs and find ones that will work better, should you choose to continue in the sport.

Thank you for clarifying that you STILL have not yet figured out that carrying too much stuff is unsafe, and that you continue to resist this notion. Come back in a few years and re-read this conversation, and you too, will be saying "Oy Veh!! - What was I thinkin'!"

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

Part of the EXPERIENCE of rappelling (for the Young Men) is the realization that each person is responsible for their OWN safety, and can handle it. An active and obvious top belay detracts considerably from this experience. A bottom belay is inobvious, and while it completes the safety/backup requirements, it gives the rappeller the illusion that if they let go they will fall to their death.

It would add to your safety more to back up the anchors, when they need it, with a meat anchor somewhere back there.====>


I'm goin' to kinda disagree with some of the above. I think a top belay might be less intrusive, its one piece of rope, rather than a sling shot of two strands going to a rappeller. And, I think a bunch of folks TR when they do some climbing, so, they might be used to that safety too.

Although for rigging from an anchor, a bottom belay might be easier but if something is haywire up top, then, its also easier to deal with the up top situation if you're up top, rather than have the experienced person already at the bottom of the drop.

I guess from my perspective, when I've belayed folks rappelling, I'd much rather be on top paying out rope and watching them from above. I think its easier to see and anticipate their mistakes looking down rather than already on the bottom looking up (distance and angle make it hard to see what the rappeller is doing).

There are certainly situations and places where a top belay is appropriate. Perhaps I over-assume here that on a Young Men's trip, he has TWO competent leaders available, thus one is available for first bottom duty, and for descent without a belay. OR, can belay the first person down with an active belay, bottom-belay the rest.



A "meat anchor"...that's a tough call for a back up if a person needs help and you're in a narrow canyon and/or a party of two. If you're a party of two, how does one "escape the belay" if you're the meat anchor and your partner needs assistance, and, his weight is on you? A dangerous game to say the least. And, maybe above some folks' pay grade.

-Brian in SLC

We usually set up a meat anchor through the rappel device and with extra rope available, so that the victim can be immediately lowered to the bottom, should they get "stuck". It also happens to be faster and easier to set up, but those are side benefits. Try it, you'll like it.

Tom :moses:

[TNTRebel]

uh... well one exception. Taking the 'gals' to Psycho Damage - wazzup with that?!? You kidding, or early evidence of poor decision-making? Totally out of character with the other canyons you have done - musta been quite the challenge! 45 lb pack through there (ha ha).

We actually found that while on the hike up to the bottom of the slot to the grotto. I am not sure if that is the name. We went up there with our families with small kids. Looked like a cool slot to explore so TNTrebel found it on google earth and found a way to get to it from the top. I didn't go with him on the trip back to it but I don't think he knew it was Psycho Damage.

Pretty cool first canyon for a resume though :haha:

Interesting. A challenging place to get to, just by looking at the maps. There's a couple of "key" passages that are unlikely, that allow access.

T :moses:

We hiked up from the bottom with Jaxx and the kids earlier the previous year, and I wanted to see if we could navigate from the top and come down. We came back kinda on a wim as something to do that day without any betas or research, like we do with alot of the canyons we hike from the water at Lake Powell. I did look the area over in GoggleEarth to map out a trail that looked like it would get us into the canyon. And placed the waypoints in my GPS for future reference. We were very conservative, and would have never pulled a rope without first knowing we could get all the way down with the beginners. Only after returning home did I later happen to stumble onto the beta for Psycho-Damage on climb-Utah.com and the rating of 4A X III ! I didn't even know what "X" meant ;-o Fortunately we retreated early enough to call it a fun day (and slightly scary for the beginners). Maybe a mistake in judgement by me (although I don't think so, as we frequently hike from the boat while at powell, just to see what we can find, and we have discovered some cool slots over the years). We did not get in over our heads, eventually we may try it again, with the experienced crew and lighter packs ...

It was challenging to navigate to get into the slot, which made me kinda proud when my GoogleEarth research seemed to work out well and get us there and back safely :-)

[ratagonia]

I don't think you really understand why he fell! I don't really agree that a smaller pack is necessarily more safe.

Welcome to the world of canyoneering, Chungy, where smaller packs are safer.

The POINT of this conversation, Chungy, is for you to re-evaluate your firmly held beliefs and find ones that will work better, should you choose to continue in the sport.

Thank you for clarifying that you STILL have not yet figured out that carrying too much stuff is unsafe, and that you continue to resist this notion. Come back in a few years and re-read this conversation, and you too, will be saying "Oy Veh!! - What was I thinkin'!"

Tom :moses:

Yeah, that's over-the-top HARSH, one of my trademarks. Sorry Chungy, you did not really deserve that level of abuse.

I stand by the content, but it definitely could have been said in a kinder manner. Please accept my apology.

Tom :moses:

[Brian in SLC]

We usually set up a meat anchor through the rappel device and with extra rope available, so that the victim can be immediately lowered to the bottom, should they get "stuck". It also happens to be faster and easier to set up, but those are side benefits. Try it, you'll like it.

If they're stuck, how you gonna do that? You gonna lower them until that stuck foot breaks?

Makes a party of three kinda nice, though.

If there were just two of you, though, lowering someone who is stuck might have really bad results.

I've tried it. Not a fan. Not many good options for when the poop hits the fan (and you'd best be a party of three). Low margin of safety, but, but alot of these techniques are low margin. Which is what you promote.

-Brian in SLC

[Brian in SLC]

Thank you for clarifying that you STILL have not yet figured out that carrying too much stuff is unsafe, and that you continue to resist this notion. Come back in a few years and re-read this conversation, and you too, will be saying "Oy Veh!! - What was I thinkin'!"


Almost hilarious considering the aftermath comments on your Black Hole fiasco.

To a person, everyone is considering adding stuff to their packs (or, gasp, maybe even carrying one).

Yeah, what the f' where you guys thinking?

I know which group I think was better prepared....

Cheers!

-Brian in SLC

[CarpeyBiggs]

I don't think you really understand why he fell! I don't really agree that a smaller pack is necessarily more safe.

Welcome to the world of canyoneering, Chungy, where smaller packs are safer.

The POINT of this conversation, Chungy, is for you to re-evaluate your firmly held beliefs and find ones that will work better, should you choose to continue in the sport.

Thank you for clarifying that you STILL have not yet figured out that carrying too much stuff is unsafe, and that you continue to resist this notion. Come back in a few years and re-read this conversation, and you too, will be saying "Oy Veh!! - What was I thinkin'!"

Tom :moses:

You know Tom, you can say these kinds of things without sounding like a jackass. Just sayin'.

Perhaps you can give some concrete examples of WHY carrying less makes you safe. But I agree with Chungy at this point, I don't see why their larger packs played much of any role in their accident.

This discussion is supposed to be about everyone evaluating the experience and learning from it. I think you are missing the evaluation part and skipping straight to "do it this way if you really want to be any good at canyoneering..."

That kind of tone turns people off. Help people understand why carrying stuff might be unsafe, but do it without telling them they are totally stupid if they don't agree.

Just my two cents...

[trackrunner]

I think that they would have been in big trouble if they were in our situation.

Please explain. Not trying to be a jerk, trying to understand. Do you think it's possible for someone to go lighter and faced with a similar accident with a forced bivy still pull off the same quality (or better) night & attempted self rescue that you guys had?



That is one main reason people die in canyons is because their pack is too small.

Again please explain, any examples.

Not trying to be a jerk, trying to understand. Maybe I'm one of the few that actually is reading to learn something still here. Your trip made me aware for some situations I'm woefully underprepared. For example, considerations for packing my emergency bivy gear and appropriate bivy gear for location & seasons (summer, fall, winter, spring). Also splits. Never thought about it much but after this situation there are lightweight compactable splints that could be added to my emergency kit. Also how could my standard gear be improvised when it really hits the fan (example: altered backpack frame for a splint).

p.s. Mods & tom: sorry if I cut in too early. please move to appropriate thread if necessary

[CarpeyBiggs]

That is one main reason people die in canyons is because their pack is too small.

Again please explain, any examples.

well, there is plenty of discussion right now on the yahoo groups about that very issue.

the thing is, every situation is unique. i think their pack size was not a big issue in this canyon. sometimes you want a super small pack. sometimes you don't. in this case, i think it's moot. their pack preparations seemed pretty commendable to me.

ultimately though, i think everyone always wants the smallest safest pack they can carry. that differs between people.

[ratagonia]

You know Tom, you can say these kinds of things without sounding like a jackass. Just sayin'.


You mean, an ordinary person can say these kinda things without being a jackass. I appreciate, Carpey, that you think *I* can too.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Thank you for clarifying that you STILL have not yet figured out that carrying too much stuff is unsafe, and that you continue to resist this notion. Come back in a few years and re-read this conversation, and you too, will be saying "Oy Veh!! - What was I thinkin'!"


Almost hilarious considering the aftermath comments on your Black Hole fiasco.

To a person, everyone is considering adding stuff to their packs (or, gasp, maybe even carrying one).

Yeah, what the f' where you guys thinking?

I know which group I think was better prepared....

Cheers!

-Brian in SLC

Fiasco? no injuries, one brief period of hypothermia, dealt with. What Fiasco you talking about, dude?

T

[ratagonia]

We usually set up a meat anchor through the rappel device and with extra rope available, so that the victim can be immediately lowered to the bottom, should they get "stuck". It also happens to be faster and easier to set up, but those are side benefits. Try it, you'll like it.

If they're stuck, how you gonna do that? You gonna lower them until that stuck foot breaks?

Makes a party of three kinda nice, though.

If there were just two of you, though, lowering someone who is stuck might have really bad results.

I've tried it. Not a fan. Not many good options for when the poop hits the fan (and you'd best be a party of three). Low margin of safety, but, but alot of these techniques are low margin. Which is what you promote.

-Brian in SLC

Well Brian, as if you did not know, we'll have to go with:

"It Depends".

Two-person team is always a low margin of safety, canyoneering. Skills count.

Tom

[ratagonia]

The event that triggered the accident was your pack slipping off the edge, then pulling you off. A lighter pack is MUCH easier to manage - the event might not have occured if your pack was "within reason". Then again, Wednesday night quarterbacking is EZ. Choosing what should be brought for an 'unknown' canyon is never ez.


I don't think you really understand why he fell! I don't really agree that a smaller pack is necessarily more safe. When he fell it was because his backup, which was holding him in (maybe because it was bigger) slipped. Not because it was pushing him down, but because he wasn't aware that was holding him up. So when he adjusted it it slipped. It would have happened the same if he would have had a 10lbs pack.


I have lots of experience managing packs in a downclimbing environment, and weight and size make a huge difference. Your statements above are consistent with the previous description of the accident. My opinion, obviously far from humble, is that having such a huge pack in there did several things: 1. too much weight and bulk make it tiring to carry through many downclimbs; resulting in both you and TNT being more tired (= less strong) at the point of the accident; 2. at the actual accident site, the large/heavy pack swung down and yanked him off. If the pack was smaller, maybe it would not have gotten stuck in the first place; if the pack was lighter, perhaps it would have not yanked him from his stance when it hit the end of the leash.



My Dad has always had a larger pack and has saved a ton of scouts because of all the extra stuff that he takes. I don't think that he will stop carrying so much to be honest. I think feeling comfortable is worth a little heavier pack, but I understand why people take smaller packs and I think that they would have been in big trouble if they were in our situation.


Perhaps you should review above the suggested list of what to bring and what not to bring. I added things that would have made your bivy more comfortable (real food), and took out a lot of weight and bulk that had nothing to do with your bivy. In essence, I claim in the category of ropes and hardware you brought WAY too much stuff, and in the other areas you were pretty much spot on.



That is one main reason people die in canyons is because their pack is too small. I have never heard of someone dying because their pack was too big or too heavy.

Name one.

I'd give you Aaron Raalston, but he lived (barely).

I'm sorry I got you so riled up. You're welcome to disagree. People have different styles, and mine is admittedly high on expertise and low on gear. My rhetorical style is often over-the-top, and obnoxious.

Your Dad's resume has many shortish beginner canyons dominated by rappels, and with not all that much downclimbing. Canyons where some extra weight in the pack is not generally a problem. And leading Young Men trips, definitely going to toss some more stuff in the pack, just in case. Totally appropriate.

TNT and Chungy in Larry is not like that, it is ... different. What is appropriate in Pine Creek with 10 kids is likely not so appropriate in Larry. It is a struggle to adjust your "kit" to the circumstances in front of you, especially when you haven't done the canyon before, and/or many canyons like it.

Tom :moses: :moses:

[ratagonia]

p.s. Mods & tom: sorry if I cut in too early. please move to appropriate thread if necessary

No, please, join the fray. Open field. Let's hear some discussion, the silence is deafening (almost like the Canyons Group or something...)

T

[Brian in SLC]

Fiasco? no injuries, one brief period of hypothermia, dealt with. What Fiasco you talking about, dude?

Why, the freeze fest Black Hole experience, of course.

Since you're being so critical of the Larry Canyon folks, it might help them to understand your point of view when it comes to canyons. Allow me to cross post what you had to say about the FF "fiasco" over on the canyons group.

I'm sure it'll help folks understand that this stuff is for adults.

(Tom "every man for himself" Jones pitches a nice fat one right down the middle...)

-Brian in SLC

Tom's Black Hole

From the yahoo egroup "canyons"...

Re: Black Hole thoughts

An UNEXPECTED long, cold swim, with a hard start that for most people ended up
splashing their face.

More teamwork - yes and no! The reason the BH works is because everyone can
keep moving. Even a few minutes of not moving (for instance, Dan and Aaron
providing hot drinks at the end of the BH) leads to getting chilled, and it is
much harder to get re-warmed.

Kind of a Samurai effect, 'every man for themselves, devil take the hindmost'.
(urp, sounds like a mixed metaphor to me). I know I did not feel like I had a
lot of 'margin' that would allow rescue actions or fiddling around or stuff like
that.

But then again, the 'escape the frigid swim' does not mean TW needs to be
standing there for half and hour. This is a tag-team situation. Help someone
out, then leave; they help someone out, then leave; etc. Unfortunately, with
the groups spread out, some people would end up waiting quite a while, probably
too long just having gotten chilled from a cold swim...

So, hard to say.

On other suggestions to stop, get out of the wetsuit, fully dry etc:

Impossible. Stopping requires full camping gear for everyone who is stopping,
which would involve the victim plus several rescuers. Sure, pull em out and
into a megamid, make a burrito wrap, get him out of the hypothermic zone. Then
what? Put the frozen wet suit back on? Continue downcanyon? We'd have been
back in trouble quickly. Making a large fire might fix this, but there were few
to zero places with enough wood to make a large fire.

The plan without Tim's wetsuit was (in my mind) to pull out some of our warm
clothing and get it on Nate UNDER his wetsuit. I had an extra hat and some
capilene tops. These work OK under the wetsuit, but really Tim's "rabbit out of
the hat" routine is what saved the day.

On preparation and lack thereof:

This is an adult activity. In essence, we expect everyone to be an adult, and
either know what they are doing, or ask questions until they get their prep
together. Nate and Jason did not do this, as late add-ons to the Hole group,
and perhaps as a matter of personal style. Our (collective) bad, but then
again, last I checked Nate and Jason are adults, responsible for themselves.
No, we do not have "gear checkout", "buddy system", or "qualification of
participants". This is an adult activity.

Also to note, if someone got hurt enough to be immobilized, they are likely
dead. Break a leg on one of the downclimbs, and the group would be hard-put to
get you out of there. Not being able to move vigorously, you will not be able
to keep yourself warm. There are a few people in the group that had some margin
to work with, but I was not one of them. Yes, some people would try hard to get
you out of there, me among them, but I don't have much to give in that
situation. Did I mention this is an adult activity?

Tom

[trackrunner]

well, there is plenty of discussion right now on the yahoo groups about that very issue.

the thing is, every situation is unique. i think their pack size was not a big issue in this canyon. sometimes you want a super small pack. sometimes you don't. in this case, i think it's moot. their pack preparations seemed pretty commendable to me.

ultimately though, i think everyone always wants the smallest safest pack they can carry. that differs between people.

Agree that it cannot be the same for different situation. It comes down to appropriate size to the situation factors.

I think the Black Hole incident is appropriate about which gear is needed (wetsuit thickness, extra fleece, bag flotation, food, emergency items, etc) which would have lead to a larger pack size (which was nothing). But would 45-50 lbs or more pack weight been best in the Black Hole? IMHO, no. I think you can accomplish your needs with gear that doesn

[ratagonia]

Mr Ralston could have used a jackhammer, but would canyoneers packing jackhammers be practical.

You wanna be safe for all situations??? or what!

T

[ratagonia]

Fiasco? no injuries, one brief period of hypothermia, dealt with. What Fiasco you talking about, dude?

Why, the freeze fest Black Hole experience, of course.

Since you're being so critical of the Larry Canyon folks, it might help them to understand your point of view when it comes to canyons. Allow me to cross post what you had to say about the FF "fiasco" over on the canyons group.

I'm sure it'll help folks understand that this stuff is for adults.

(Tom "every man for himself" Jones pitches a nice fat one right down the middle...)

-Brian in SLC

Tom's Black Hole

From the yahoo egroup "canyons"...

Re: Black Hole thoughts

An UNEXPECTED long, cold swim, with a hard start that for most people ended up
splashing their face.

But Brian, you (conveniently) left out the most important part (in addition to several pages of context which could also be considered important):




>
> reconsideration leads me to qualify the "adult" 'claim':
>
> I meant it more as an OBSERVATION of how things work in a large, non-organized group in difficult conditions; and that future participants should be aware of this, and be prepared physically and intellectually to take care of themselves.
>
> This SIZE of group is a bad size for group-decision-making, unless it has a well-defined leadership structure. Nate and Jason were also the least-connected members of the group, and thus the ones who needed to be MOST proactive in making sure their kit was up to snuff. A lot of these difficulties flow from their last-minute decision to join the team. Plenty of extra gear was available to them, even at the parking lot, if they had asked. They did not have a good understanding of what they needed, and thus thought they would muddle-through in some way with the stuff they had. Guess they did, and now know what they will need next year.
>
> Tom

[jman]

First, I think this is great that such a dialogue (aside from the proper technicalities or errors of the trip) is happening! First, you have the Larry Canyon SAR incident, then you have the Freezefest Hypothermia incident.

On one hand, and in this thread, Tom mentions that a smaller pack is best and with that "welcome to the world of canyoneering". Then, the incident with hypothermia (a situation more severe than I think most realize) and yes there were some people who were fully prepared (extra hoodie for nate, sharing of thermos, and much more). Yet, that same argument of a "smaller pack is best" did not apply in this situation at all. Not even in the slightest.

Level-headed Carpey said it best, and allow me for paraphrasing, "each canyon is different and you pack differently." Exactly! Each canyon is always different and have to prepare differently, especially for Freezefest. I overhead a friend talking about "they" should cancel freezefest because it's just too risky. NO! There is no need to cancel it because one incident of hypothermia.... It can be relatively safe (canyoneering has an inherent risk to it, so it's not a "Perfect safety") if they right precautions are in place, gear is correct, and attitudes/egos are in check!

anywho,
I quote from Hank Moon, who posted on canyons who said this:

"The "adult activity" angle: A bit on the weak side, Tom. Adults are not
> only responsible for themselves, but for others."

That's why I believe in my humble opinion, that there should be a canyon leader (even if the group is all extremely confident and have perfect skills) there should be one who will coordinate all the planning, AND Communication.

Further quoting Steve/RAM in a canyons post:



"The bad news....So how does someone land in the Hole without a pack, without enough neoprene, without gloves, without a hat under his helmet, without food, without having eating a ton before going? Bad leadership, that's how. And while many will say the usual about personal responsibility on Nate's part and some truth lies there, the fact is he was sucker punched by lack of support and information. In my next post I will explain how I managed to fail to insure that these things didn't get taken care of, but want it clear. I don't want it seen as excuse making. The blames lays squarely with me and if I may, my partner in such things, Tom too."

True, like Steve said, it is Nate's fault for not bringing the proper gear. But, if you are leading an expedition, to anywhere (Mt. Everest, Scuba-Diving, ATVing, roadtrips, being a parent, whatever), there is a leader who will double-check every thing, to make sure everyone is prepared and things are "according to plan" right? That's why RAM is taking responsiblity, I believe. Granted, there are people who don't plan anything and haphazardly live their adventure and make it. But they are the ones asking for trouble. One day or another an accident will happen to em, due to their non-planning. NOTE: I'm not pulling things out of context, because in the end - the purpose of canyoneering - is successfully and safely navigating a canyon, while of course having lots of fun. right?

Anywho, all of these incidents are hopefully making all of us fellow canyoneers - a little more responsible, a better leader, and a better planner.

I don't mean to point my fingers at anyone - except perhaps their attitudes, but I've been there where I have underplanned and a incident happens and we successfully make it out of there, without anyone else knowing the better. I know I have learned more things on becoming a better leader and making sure I'm prepared.

[Brian in SLC]

Yeah I did...but you can bet I'll be sampling from that beauty in the future...ha ha. Good fodder!

Its titallating stuff to be sure.

Interesting comparison between your "non fiasco" and the Larry Canyon accident.

Makes me think about risk. And tolerance for risk.

I mean, really, which group had a greater margin of safety?

The saavy folks in all this?

As they say, "oh yeah, the women are smarter."

A few thoughts. Folks have different approaches to stuff. Some more risk averse than others. Some more talented, physically, some more crafty, etc. Both situations kind of highlight different approaches and margins of safety and risk.

Tom comes at this canyoning thing from climbing. He and his ilk push (promote, what have you) a certain style, ethics, and in some circles this carries weight. Folks who respect and maybe admire this style might seek to emulate it. This activity attacts all kinds of folks. Some with huge talent, physically, others with talent in being crafty, etc. And in those groups lies very different tolerances for risk and margins of safety.

When you're the Pied Piper, you play the tune, but, you don't get to choose who follows.

So you'll get folks who carry big packs, large medical kits, extra rope, spare ascenders and descenders. Easy to be critical of their heavy packs. On the other hand, you'll get folks who won't even bring a pack. Pretty easy to be critical of that too.

Celebrate diversity, and, maybe be more tolerant of others?

Big tent. Some times even the uncool kids want a little shade under the big top.

Cheers!

-Brian in SLC

[trackrunner]

I overhead a friend talking about "they" should cancel freezefest because it's just too risky.

they should fill it up with concrete!!! too dangerous, people can't think rational!!!



To the family I hope my comments don't come off as jerk. Genuinely interested in the questions I posted. Your story will already add a few extra items (depending on the situation) to my gear, and marginally a few extra in weight. Your answers may do the same or convince me I may be overlooking something importat. Thank you. I'm done for a while. Will now try to watch from a distance as my questions are discussed & answered.

Best luck in your recovery and good luck with your future outdoor adventures in the coming year. hope to see you at the fests

:cool2: :rockon:

[jman]

I overhead a friend talking about "they" should cancel freezefest because it's just too risky.

they should fill it up with concrete!!! too dangerous, people can't think rational!!!


Instead of concrete, I prefer TNT and blowing up the canyon just like what they do to hot springs...haha

well, "they" refers to the wife of a friend who went to FF and did the hole along with everyone else that day and later told his wife about the hypothermic Nate. They invited me to dinner last week and my friend and I talked for a LONG time about it over dinner. Then the wife said - to "not do it in the winter. It's just begging for trouble. Why not just cancel it and do it in the spring?" Then I brought up the whole Nutty Putty cave incident and tried to help her understand of the "riskyness" of the world. And how driving is more dangerous than most activities and we should just cancel that. I told her it all comes down to preparation, knowledge of the sport & climbing skills, leadership, attitude, and communication...

anyways..........

[Scott P]

You have done the Black Hole with us - did you think it was that whacko, for an experienced team?

Swimming through an ice and water filled slot canyon in January? Why would anyone consider something like that to be whacko? :haha:

Yes and no. The thing about the Black Hole is that technical experience has no bearing on whether one has a high tolerance to cold water, even if one is properly equipped. When you say an

[CarpeyBiggs]

well, "they" refers to the wife of a friend who went to FF and did the hole along with everyone else that day and later told his wife about the hypothermic Nate. They invited me to dinner last week and my friend and I talked for a LONG time about it over dinner.

well, WHO is the mystery black hole attendee? someone married? that eliminates pretty much everyone i know :lol:.

my curiosity is piqued... :popcorn:

[ratagonia]

[quote=tom]130 feet of webbing, 3 over-the-shoulder slings, 5 prusiks, 1 webbing ladder (etrier or aider) with sentimental value, 1 Valdotain (French Braid thing), 30 feet of 6mm rope, 100+ feet of emergency 7mm rope.

This sounds like you are going on a major exploration, expecting 10-15 raps. You actually had enough stuff to fix ropes in the entire canyon

Sometimes, raps can require a lot of webbing. You knew to bring much less webbing because you have done the canyon, but let

[Chungy22]

Of course I accept you appology! I am very new at this expecially compared to you Ratagonia, but I just don't like being treated like an incompentant fool that doesn't know what he is doing. Granted I am not about to admit that I am an expert or anywhere near it. In fact I would love to go through canyons with some of you and learn how you pack and how it affects you in the canyons. I would love to learn new ways to get through a canyon with a lighter pack. Honestly my pack was about 20-25 lbs....... not too bad and I am glad that Tntrebel didn't take the noraml 40-50 lb pack that he normally does because I ended up carrying about 60% of his backpack so I would have had about a 50-60 lb pack for the hike out! Not good!!! I will agree with you that taking the minimum weight is the best, but I guess everyone just has to judge for themselves on what is the minimum weight. For some it might be a little heavier than others, but I think being confortable and sure that you have enough is worth a few extra pounds, but that is just me. That is exactly why I want to go with some of you to learn what kind of pack you are confortable with and I am sure to learn a ton more than that! I actually appreciate criticism (Just not when I am considered a complete idiot for it, when I really am just kind of an idiot for it!!) ;) So thanks again Tom for your advice! Know that I will take it into consideration and probably go a little lighter next time and make sure I have what I need in there.

[Chungy22]

As for the choice of canyon for Tntrebel and I to do. I don't really think that it was a poor choice honestly. It would have been a really easy canyon for us to get through if Tntrebel hadn't of made a mistake and slipped! There are only 2 madatory rappels in that canyon. 5 total (you can skip past the drop in and the last 2), which leaves only 2 rappels the longest of which was only 75'. I have done more than that before and I thought it would be a fun canyon to do....... Again, Granted We probably should have talked to people that had done the canyon before or even gone with someone that had gone before, but I don't think was a poor choice of canyon for our level. Thank you again for the advice though. It will make me research the canyons that I would like to do a little more and make sure that I have a first hand account of what to expect so that I won't be surprised by anything.

[Chungy22]

The POINT of this conversation, Chungy, is for you to re-evaluate your firmly held beliefs and find ones that will work better, should you choose to continue in the sport.


I am course going to continue in the sport! I love it! My wife is a little wary about it now, but I think she also going to join us on our next expedition. I think we will find a pretty easy canyon for her to do, but yes of course I am going to continue. Besides that would waste a lot of money if I quit now and was not able to use all the new stuff that I have.

[Scott P]

I'm having trouble following your arithmetic, Scott. 130 + 18 + 30 + 100 does not equal 148.

That was for the sling/webbing (unless I missed something?). Are you counting the rope as the extra 100?


I don't pay much attention to Shane's gear recommendations because he is not usually specific to the canyon - he has a general "complete technical gear list" that ends up on most of his beta sheets.

Maybe so, but my point wasn't how much was actually needed in the canyon, but how much the party was told they should take. Unless I'm missing something, they didn't take that much more than was recommended.


5 prusiks, valdotain, etrier?

A prusik system was on the recommended gear list, though they could have made it smaller or used what they already had to make one.


I carry a backup rope or "rescue rope" in certain circumstances. But not in narrow, squeezy canyons with lots of downclimbing and not many rappels.

Yes, but you are more experienced. There is no disagreement about that. No one would disagree that mistakes were made, but you have to look at it from the point of view of the people involved and why they might have taken more gear than you know in is needed for the canyon. To me, looking from a point of view of foresight vs. hindsight and what was recommended, it really doesn't seem that illogical that someone with more limited experience might end up taking too much. It was a mistake, but not a totally irrational one given their experience and information. I agree that they took too much gear and I assume they do too. I don't disagree that it may have contributed to the accident and I agree that they should have taken less. I was just looking more for a "why?" and trying to see it from their point of view rather than trying to say that mistakes were not made.

Anyway, the first time I did Larry, not having any beta (we did the canyon before you did), we took a lot of extra gear through Larry as well and I agree; it sucked getting the packs through all that. I can see where a big pack was a liability. I also agree with taking much less gear through the canyon that they ended up taking.

I agree with you that in winter it wasn't a great choice for the group.

[Scott P]

As for the choice of canyon for Tntrebel and I to do. I don't really think that it was a poor choice honestly. There are only 2 madatory rappels in that canyon. 5 total (you can skip past the drop in and the last 2), which leaves only 2 rappels the longest of which was only 75'. I have done more than that before and I thought it would be a fun canyon to do. Again, Granted We probably should have talked to people that had done the canyon before or even gone with someone that had gone before, but I don't think was a poor choice of canyon for our level.

Although I can see how someone could easily make that mistake in foresight, I think I would have to agree that it really wasn't a good choice. IMHO you seem to be blowing off some of the dangers and it could have been worse. It is also true that if no one got hurt, it could have been completely uneventful.

Don't take this the wrong way, but be careful about relying to much on physical strength and physical ability to get you through canyons. There is more to these canyons than being able to downclimb or slide down a rope. Reading your enthusiastic comments, I see myself 12-15 years ago and in hindsight I was quite lucky to never have an accident. Treat each canyon as a learning experience.

I guess that it all I have to say on the topic. I'm headed out to do some canyons. :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

I don't pay much attention to Shane's gear recommendations because he is not usually specific to the canyon - he has a general "complete technical gear list" that ends up on most of his beta sheets.

Maybe you should start paying more attention.... because the gear recommendation's listed in the actual route description are canyon specific. I tell you exactly how much rope you will need, how much webbing, how many slings, if and what type of wetsuit you will need, what size pack you should bring, yada, yada..... if any specialized gear (cheater stick, throw bag, or cam) is required it is also listed.... Yes, I have a general gear page but the gear listed in the route description is canyon specific.

:cool2:

[CarpeyBiggs]

Maybe you should start paying more attention....

really shane? like this one for chambers?


Chambers requires complete technical gear. There are no mandatory rappels in this canyon but a 30-foot rope for belays, handlines and pack lowering is highly advised. Additional gear should consist of a mae west bunny strap, several shoulder length slings, a couple double length slings, 50 feet of webbing, several rapid links, and a prusik system. As small of pack as possible is highly advised. In normal conditions this canyon will require minor waist to chest deep wading. Wetsuits are not required in normal warm weather conditions.

hmm... doesn't sound very canyon specific to me. 50 feet of webbing? Several rapid links? Rope? Complete technical gear? Carrying that stuff through the upper section of chambers would be a nightmare.

I guess we can excuse you though, because you've never actually been in Chambers, so it's hard to write canyon specific details for that one. :popcorn:

[Iceaxe]

The canyon specific gear (for any route) is what I suggest, you are welcome to disagree.

But with regards to Chambers... yeah... a 30' rope and a little webbing is going to cause major problems. :roflol:

So Dan... any more of your usual cheap ass shots you want to take at me today?

:popcorn:

[ratagonia]

Of course I accept you appology! I am very new at this expecially compared to you Ratagonia, but I just don't like being treated like an incompentant fool that doesn't know what he is doing. Granted I am not about to admit that I am an expert or anywhere near it. In fact I would love to go through canyons with some of you and learn how you pack and how it affects you in the canyons. I would love to learn new ways to get through a canyon with a lighter pack. Honestly my pack was about 20-25 lbs....... not too bad and I am glad that Tntrebel didn't take the noraml 40-50 lb pack that he normally does because I ended up carrying about 60% of his backpack so I would have had about a 50-60 lb pack for the hike out! Not good!!! I will agree with you that taking the minimum weight is the best, but I guess everyone just has to judge for themselves on what is the minimum weight. For some it might be a little heavier than others, but I think being confortable and sure that you have enough is worth a few extra pounds, but that is just me. That is exactly why I want to go with some of you to learn what kind of pack you are confortable with and I am sure to learn a ton more than that! I actually appreciate criticism (Just not when I am considered a complete idiot for it, when I really am just kind of an idiot for it!!) ;) So thanks again Tom for your advice! Know that I will take it into consideration and probably go a little lighter next time and make sure I have what I need in there.


Thank you for being gracious.

Tom



As for the choice of canyon for Tntrebel and I to do. I don't really think that it was a poor choice honestly. It would have been a really easy canyon for us to get through if Tntrebel hadn't of made a mistake and slipped! There are only 2 madatory rappels in that canyon. 5 total (you can skip past the drop in and the last 2), which leaves only 2 rappels the longest of which was only 75'. I have done more than that before and I thought it would be a fun canyon to do....... Again, Granted We probably should have talked to people that had done the canyon before or even gone with someone that had gone before, but I don't think was a poor choice of canyon for our level. Thank you again for the advice though. It will make me research the canyons that I would like to do a little more and make sure that I have a first hand account of what to expect so that I won't be surprised by anything.


I see that...

But, how many and how long the rappels are is a poor way of analyzing how 'hard' the canyon is. For the prior canyons on TNT's resume, they are perhaps an accurate assessment of the canyon's difficulty - which is what makes them half-day, beginner canyons.

Larry was a step up from that, maybe not a BIG step up, but at least a short step up. Longer (a full-day canyon), more remote, more downclimbing, with the tiring slanty-corridor, and a sometimes difficult to find exit. Larry is a wonderful canyon. But... (and I repeat myself): winter cold, winter short hours, inexperienced partner, small team. Yes, usually we get away with these sorts of things and it is great fun. In this case you DID get away with it with only almost-minor injuries (thanks be to wearing a helmet), and injuries to pride.

Tom Moses



I'm having trouble following your arithmetic, Scott. 130 + 18 + 30 + 100 does not equal 148.

That was for the sling/webbing (unless I missed something?). Are you counting the rope as the extra 100?


This is in addition to a 200' rope remember. Yes, I am counting the 7mm 100+ foot "backup rope" as part of the sling material.

278 is much greater than 75.

Tom

EDIT: Carpey combined some of Tom's post into this one. Carpey doesn't know how to split topics properly, apparently, so he is trying to put the pieces back together. Flame on!

[ratagonia]

What are the extra items for: 5 prusiks, valdotain, etrier? 12 carabiners - does that include Chungy's, or did he also bring a pound-a-biners?

Tom

(bump)

[Chungy22]

Yeah, I was only carrying 2 of my own so I did use a few of his on the expedition, but it was mostly his. I now have more of my own! :)

[ratagonia]

The canyon specific gear (for any route) is what I suggest, you are welcome to disagree.

But with regards to Chambers... yeah... a 30' rope and a little webbing is going to cause major problems. :roflol:

So Dan... any more of your usual cheap ass shots you want to take at me today?

:popcorn:

NOTE: THIS SIDE ISSUE SPLIT OFF TO ANOTHER THREAD...

T

[ratagonia]

Yeah, I was only carrying 2 of my own so I did use a few of his on the expedition, but it was mostly his. I now have more of my own! :)

How many do you need? How many SHOULD you take, say, on Larry Canyon, and not carrying reserves to cover other people's lack?

(for anyone who wants to discuss this, please include what rappel device you use and how many biners you use with it).

Trackrunner? Shane? Carpey? Chungy? TNT? BDC? Bueller?

T :moses:

[CarpeyBiggs]

ATC XP - usually carry 5 carabiners - one big pear to rap off. 2 attache for biner blocks and tiblocs, etc... and 1 or 2 small locking biners for bunny straps.

though, depending on the canyon i carry more or less. and i'm notorious for taking too few. :haha:

for larry, i'd carry 5.

[Brian in SLC]

(for anyone who wants to discuss this, please include what rappel device you use and how many biners you use with it)

I typically use an ATC/ATCxp. I use a locker with it, typically an autolock with a plastic sleeve that has long since lost the ability to autolock so I give it a quarter turn manually. I like it (old DMM's not made anymore, but, I bought around 10 of them, but, only have one or two not grooved out to the point of silly and/or the locking mechanism still sorta functions).

Then I bring a couple of hotwires to add friction since I'm prone to using skinny ropes. Then a couple more biners for fun. A few slings. Set of Prusik cords (my standard now is a single Prusik and a tied rabbit runner that I can use as a small valdy if needed. Both out of that Mammut pro cord 6mm which seems to work well on several thinner ropes).


What are the extra items for: 5 prusiks, valdotain, etrier? 12 carabiners - does that include Chungy's, or did he also bring a pound-a-biners?

I guess this stuff all adds up, but, not really out of the ball park. I've found on numerous occasions that a light alpine aider (etrier) or two is super handy in a canyon. And light and compact enough that they're easy to stash/carry.

Could use the Prusiks for anchors (knot chocks, etc). Valdy is handy for a number of things (up and down a loaded rope, etc). Spare biners are nice. If you needed to rig just about anything (raise, lower, etc) you'd burn up a pile of them for sure.

Almost would prefer to have two standard biners over a single locker. Less chance for the gate to get stuck (sand gets into everything).

Maybe this should be a separate thread too? Standard minimum?

I'd be curious what your standard "stuff" is, Tom. Why don't you tell us exactly what was in your pack for, say, the Black Hole at the recent Freeze Fest, along with what you'd carry for Larry with friends, and compared to what you'd carry if you were guiding it.

Then let us pick it apart (ha ha).

These guys have been more than accomodating with the what, why, when, where, etc. Now lets see what you got.

-Brian in SLC

[hank moon]

These guys have been more than accomodating with the what, why, when, where, etc. Now lets see what you got.


c-c-caint remember!

:moses: :moses: :moses:

[FOX]

How many do you need? How many SHOULD you take, say, on Larry Canyon, and not carrying reserves to cover other people's lack?

(for anyone who wants to discuss this, please include what rappel device you use and how many biners you use with it).

Trackrunner? Shane? Carpey? Chungy? TNT? BDC? Bueller?

T :moses:

I'll jump in on this. For gear I use an ATC-XP and I normally pack anywhere from 4 to 6 locking biners depending on the canyon and size of the pack I'll be using. For Larry I'd probably take 4. I also always pack extra webbing, some tiblocs, a couple of slings and sometimes a potshot or two.

I remember carrying way too much with me when I first started running canyons. Over the years and as I've gained experience, I've started to learn what's really critical and what's not but I'm always looking for new ideas to refine and clean up my gear/essentials/possibles bag.

I too would be interested in knowing what Tom uses and packs with him most of the time. :popcorn:

[garrettw]

enough already

[ratagonia]

These guys have been more than accomodating with the what, why, when, where, etc. Now lets see what you got.
c-c-caint remember!

:moses: :moses: :moses:

c'mon hank. hasn't been that long, has it???

:moses:

[ratagonia]

The canyon specific gear (for any route) is what I suggest, you are welcome to disagree.

But with regards to Chambers... yeah... a 30' rope and a little webbing is going to cause major problems. :roflol:


Yup. There are some canyons where anything extra = problems. Chambers is one of them.

:moses:

[hank moon]

c'mon hank. hasn't been that long, has it???

Well...sorta! My last "real" canyon trip involved a highly technical, cordless descent using camera-case straps and Prusik slings to aid downclimbing drops, y'know. :)

But normally...

I carry from 1-6 'biners depending on the canyon. If it's Keyhole with a competent crew, I go with one (Munter). For Heaps, maybe 6 if using an ATC XP, less with other devices.

A note on rap devices: I generally avoid taking a Pirana in Mae West/climby canyons due to interference with movement (especially downclimbing) when it is worn on the harness. It's ideal to remove the harness for long rap-less sections, but sometimes this isn't practical. Not to mention them horns seem to like hooking on clothing and...sensitive areas...at the worst times.

[TNTRebel]

[quote=ratagonia]

[quote=TNTRebel]
Larry

[ratagonia]

We were purposely hustling this time, and I thought making great time with just two of us that are very experienced with hiking and down-climbing, up-climbing in slot canyons (20+ years or so for me and maybe 10 years for Chungy22). Yes newbies especially when compared to a lot of you on the technical parts of these canyons (rappels), but very experienced with the other aspect of canyoneering.



Well, I am 22 and in very good shape. Not the best of my life, but still in very good condition to hike and rappel all day. Honestly for the experience that I have and then training. It hasn't been too much. I have always gone rappelling with just my Dad. I have been through, I think, 3 canyons besides this one. I have been through two canyons in the Blue John area and then through Granary canyon near Moab. All of those canyons were pretty technical especially Granary.

but very experienced with the other aspect of canyoneering

One does not become experienced with the other aspects of canyoneering by doing non-technical canyons and a little scrambling. It certainly HELPS, but...

One of the give-aways in newspaper articles in Utah about accidents and deaths is the term "experienced outdoorsman". When people get hurt or killed canyoneering, they are often (it seems) "experienced outdoorsman". What that means is that they have a lot of experience in the out-of-doors but NOT in canyoneering. They perhaps have spent years riding ATVs, huntin' and fishin', hiking, mountain biking, etc. But not canyoneering, and not perhaps rock climbing (or other on-rope sports).

I'm stretching for an analogy. If someone drowns in a scuba accident, it really does not do them a lot of good to be an "experienced swimmer". Experience at scuba is what counts.

We see a fair amount of rock climbing accidents and rescues needed by people who are just scrambling around and get stuck. The media labels them "rock climbing" accidents, because the people were climbing on rocks. But us rock climbers don't consider these people rock climbers.

The scuba analogy is too far a reach, because your experience scrambling / downclimbing / rough terrain travelling DOES apply to some extent to canyoneering, but it does not apply as much as you seem to think. IN CANYON, (to me), the only mistake you made was to misjudge a downclimb, and decide that you had misjudged it too late. I, too, often misjudge downclimbs, so I don't think that is so bad, BUT, I call for a rope before I get too far. The error in judgement, to me, was that you got too far down the downclimb before deciding it was not downclimbable. I see this as a result of lack of seasoning on this KIND of downclimbing, at this level of difficulty of downclimbing - a lack of experience.

Welcome to the big leagues.

The standards are different.

From your resume, I see Bluejohn which has downclimbing, some, not much, but I do not see others that do.

All those canyons were pretty technical especially Granary

Haven't done Granary, but I'd like to suggest that your scale is adjusted to "general outdoorsman" activities. Compared to hiking on a trail, these canyons are PRETTY TECHNICAL. In the realm of technical canyoneering, these canyons are Basic, Easy Beginner canyons. Larry on that scale is a somewhat more advanced beginner canyon. Enough so that it caught you by the short and curlies...

Canyoneering route descriptions are written for technical canyoneers, not "experienced outdoorsmen". It is not clear to me that our descriptions provide enough context to place various routes accurately on a more general scale. There's a fair amount of "reading between the lines" required, but people who have been in the canyoneering community for a while have learned where those lines are to read between.

As an aside, this is one problem that I have with Mr. K's books. Mr. K moved into technical canyoneering rather aggressively over the last couple of years, and he is an aggressive and talented downclimber. His publishing of intense, very difficult and dangerous X-type canyons (and his somewhat casual description of them) has some of us old foggies concerned that experienced outdoorsmen will decide to do something "a little harder" and end up in a very difficult canyon, and get hurt or kilt.

Mr. BDC has these same issues with the technical information that I publish (I think). I write for a technical, experienced crowd that is interested in fancy canyoneering 'tricks' - but are these presented with enough context to keep 'experienced outdoorsman' away from trying the tricks without sufficient technical context to understand when and how these tricks work? He has a good point.

Tom :moses:

[Cirrus2000]

All those canyons were pretty technical especially Granary

Haven't done Granary, but I'd like to suggest that your scale is adjusted to "general outdoorsman" activities. Compared to hiking on a trail, these canyons are PRETTY TECHNICAL. In the realm of technical canyoneering, these canyons are Basic, Easy Beginner canyons. Larry on that scale is a somewhat more advanced beginner canyon. Enough so that it caught you by the short and curlies...

Canyoneering route descriptions are written for technical canyoneers, not "experienced outdoorsmen". It is not clear to me that our descriptions provide enough context to place various routes accurately on a more general scale. There's a fair amount of "reading between the lines" required, but people who have been in the canyoneering community for a while have learned where those lines are to read between.

As an aside, this is one problem that I have with Mr. K's books. Mr. K moved into technical canyoneering rather aggressively over the last couple of years, and he is an aggressive and talented downclimber. His publishing of intense, very difficult and dangerous X-type canyons (and his somewhat casual description of them) has some of us old foggies concerned that experienced outdoorsmen will decide to do something "a little harder" and end up in a very difficult canyon, and get hurt or kilt.

Mr. BDC has these same issues with the technical information that I publish (I think). I write for a technical, experienced crowd that is interested in fancy canyoneering 'tricks' - but are these presented with enough context to keep 'experienced outdoorsman' away from trying the tricks without sufficient technical context to understand when and how these tricks work? He has a good point.

Tom :moses:

Aha, this is interesting. I don't have a lot of experience in canyons, but some experience in rock climbing, scrambling, mountaineering. You could say I'm kind of an "experienced outdoorsman."

Descriptions in the guide books or write-ups I have read have sometimes terrified me. I will read about a tricky step, or some class 3, and get kind of worried. Heck, I was worried about going through Buckskin Gulch solo, for goodness sakes. I am not big on exposure, and am very cautious about getting into a situation where things get a little technical and/or exposed. Especially since I very frequently do things on my own.

Example: A couple of years ago, I hiked the lower part of Coyote Gulch. I paid great heed to the description in SA's Canyoneering 3 that called the "Crack in the Wall" exit class 3+. I worried about exiting up it on my own - there wasn't much in the way of a description, but I've done some very gnarly class 3 scrambles before, around here (home.) Well, I got to the spot, climbed up a couple of short steps, and started looking for the class 3+, but there was nothing but flat desert to be seen. Apparently, I'd finished it. Huh? I also found the description of Peekaboo/Spooky, at class 4+, and Egypt 3, with 5.0 climbing, to be a little overwrought.

The thing is, it's a tough line to walk. If you downplay the difficulties, you're not doing anyone any favours. But if you overstate them, then, like the boy who cried wolf, people start to take beta descriptions lightly.

The trick is to take everything you read with a grain of salt. Until you have done a few trips that you've read about, and compared your experience with what the author wrote, you have very little to go by.

In my local mountains, there is a great guidebook called "Scrambles in South West British Columbia" by Matt Gunn. I've done lots of the trips that he has written up, and have a pretty good feel for what he means when he says "The rock here is horribly loose and the scrambling is exposed and difficult", or a "moderately exposed blocky crux".

When I read about tricky downclimbs in canyons, I am leery and tend to overestimate the difficulties. Long, overhanging, or awkward rappels don't make me uncomfortable (except for the pucker factor on the first step - there's a lot of innate survival instinct to suppress), so I don't stress out over those. Not that I take them lightly, but I know that they do not exceed my abilities.


By the way, my use of the word "overwrought" earlier reminds me - that's what this seems, in my opinion:


Welcome to the big leagues.

The standards are different.

Tom, we get it. But you keep on bludgeoning. Or condescending. Or something. Yes, I know you're the emperor, and you know I have a huge amount of respect, but still, will there be any toning down eventually? Because a bit of superiority, a smidgen of big dog dominance, a finely crafted lecture is fine in measured doses. But I know that if I were on the receiving end of it in public (hey, maybe I am in private; maybe we all are) I'd be pretty sick of it.

Deferentially,
Kev