Stuck on Rappel needing rescue.

[moab mark]

It's cold and snowy so there's not much to do so I was wondering how many of you seasoned or noob canyoneers have had someone get stuck while rappeling and needed assistance? Or any other screw ups while rappeling. If you have had this experience and had to get creative to solve the problem what did you do?

I have been fortunate in 5+ years have never had a single problem other then a girl one time getting her hair stuck for a second.

If you want to play along, lets hear about some of the train wrecks.

I did screw up one time though and leave my pack at the top and had to jug up and get it.

Mark

[CarpeyBiggs]

oh man, i know of a couple golden mishaps... getting stuck on rappel has happened to a few people. both times, it was a girl, hair got stuck...

one guy i know might be coerced into sharing one from pine creek.

the other happened in death valley, here's a chat about it:

Girl: i have a CRAZY canyoneering story for you...
me: what happened?
8:36 AM Girl: i almost died
me: whaaa
who were you with
8:39 AM Girl: I was with _____ and like 6 other people. Basically, my hair got TOTALLY tangled in the ropes on a 200ft rappel and I was stuck 100ft off the ground for over an hour

[RedRoxx]

For me shirt caught in device ( I have short hair and wear a helmet most times caving so no worries. Now have a hole in that shirt.)
Rigged a device incorrectly at the top of a 60 footer, I was resting with my back on a chockstone and my feet on the wall. I was looking at it and said to my boyfriend "this looks wrong". He shrugged and said try it anyway, looks like plenty of friction. I rerigged correctly and looked at him and said "yeah, and you'll sleep by yourself tonite"
We have a great relationship....

[Iceaxe]

I sucked my shirt through the rappel device once.

[tanya]

My pony tail went through once!

And the tip of my thumb briefly before I pulled it back.. OUCH!!!!

[CarpeyBiggs]

another one of hair stuck - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/32219

This from the archives, maybe 7-8 years ago

Got a knife?

On my recent 16 day Zion trip, we were blessed with fine weather,
great friends, both new and old and wonderful adventure and fun, day
after day. On day 3 we did have a mishap. We were a group of 10,
doing Pine Creek. There were 5 adults (Loosely) and 5 children, ages
12,11,11,9, and 7 from 3 families. The 7 year old, my daughter Amy,
was doing the last free rap of 100 feet. When you weigh 60Lbs, you
actually need to feed the rope through to make progress and progress
she was making in a cool and collected fashion which gave me great
pride. About 30 feet from the bottom she cried out that her hair was
stuck and started to scream. In a calm, that belied my real state, I
called up and asked her to calm down and be quiet so we could solve
the problem for her. To her credit, she complied immediately and I
could hear her hum softly, which has been her preferred method of
self control for years.

We had a second rope, by which an adult from above could have
descended, but by shear luck, she was at the exact height, where, I
could, with parental adrenaline pumping, climb the spring and the
rib above, and with help from below guiding her over to me, cut the
hair and allow her to continue down.

The hair was in the devise and the devise was right against her
scalp. Delicate work.

Epilogue-The thread, a couple of months ago, about hair getting
stuck had not been missed. Yet we still found trouble. Amy had been
wearing a baseball cap all day and had the hair going through the
hole in the back. She had taken her hat off on top of the rap and no
one had caught it. OOPS! Tying into a bun became the religious
practice for the rest of the trip.

Special thanx to Roy Serati, who
was sharing fireman duty with me, for being calm, when I was dazed,
and handing the knife into my shaking hand. Also, thanx to Mike
Hickey, who was prepared to descent and solve the problem. Finally,
kudos to Mom, Saint Judy, for being so collected, when busting, was
probably the first instinct.

Mom and I did get to listen to Amy talk in her sleep the next two
nights, with the sound of anxiety in her voice, as she worked out
her trauma. We would wake her and ask her what she was dreaming
about. She would tell some tale about school, but Mom and Dad would
imagine other issues working themselves out. Amy wears the cut hair,
all 4 inches of it, as a bracelet when the mood suits her and
appears no worse for the wear. She did Mystery, in style, 2 days
later and gave her slide show to the 1st grade with flare. Lucky are
we.

Ram and Clan

[moab mark]

My neighbor has a buddy that had the same experience at pine creek. His daughter got her hair caught on the last rappel. He rappeled down and cut her free. The funny part was the next day she had a school dance. Her dad had to spring for major extenstions for her hair. According to him they are pricey. :frustrated:

Mark

[tanya]

I was lucky... my pony tail just began to go in and I pulled it out quickly so there was no problem and no one even knew it happened, but me --- it hurt! ~whew~

[Pelon1]

Just wonder how many of these "problems" could have been resolved easily by having the rope rigged with a contingency block?

[hank moon]

Just wonder how many of these "problems" could have been resolved easily by having the rope rigged with a contingency block?

well, the shirt/hair/nipple/thumb suck wouldn't be solved...unless I'm missing something.

Here's another one: guide hand caught under rope at sharp lip. ouch.

[Pelon1]

Just wonder how many of these "problems" could have been resolved easily by having the rope rigged with a contingency block?

well, the shirt/hair/nipple/thumb suck wouldn't be solved...unless I'm missing something.

Here's another one: guide hand caught under rope at sharp lip. ouch.

Releasing a rope and lowering someone sure seems easier than setting up another rope and rappelling down and cutting hair or shirt to release someone on a rope? Especially a child.
[quote=CarpeyBiggs]Basically, my hair got TOTALLY tangled in the ropes on a 200ft rappel and I was stuck 100ft off the ground for over an hour

[ratagonia]

Just wonder how many of these "problems" could have been resolved easily by having the rope rigged with a contingency block?

Actually, as much as I prefer having a contingency set up when I find myself in trouble, my experience has been that the better, overall solution is to have your conversion to a lower (from, say, a block) down pat, so that it can be performed in about 30 seconds. yes, that's 30 seconds longer than pulling the ripcord on a contingency, but...

The problem with setting a contingency, every time, is that you get tired of it. No, it does not take real long, but considering the rate of problems is very, very low, even rigging-nazis like me become fed up with it. Since I have the conversion down pat, it also helps because almost anyone can set up the anchor (with a block or a stone knot) - it doesn't have to be me.

If there is a takeaway, it is this: get yourself trained, and practice regularly. And don't let me see ya doin' those mis-guided double rope rappels - a sure formula for making things tough, should problems arise.

Of course, then again, come to think of it, rigging a contingency anchor is the easiest of rescue skills to learn, practice and keep current on - so for many, it WOULD be the best choice, every time, every rappel.

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

It's cold and snowy so there's not much to do so I was wondering how many of you seasoned or noob canyoneers have had someone get stuck while rappeling and needed assistance? Or any other screw ups while rappeling. If you have had this experience and had to get creative to solve the problem what did you do?

Mark

Two days before I went and did 'Canyon Rescue' (with Rich/ACA), in Pine Creek, on the last rappel, my buddy John rapped into a snarl and got stuck about 8 feet off the ground. I went down to 'rescue him' (had a separate rope available), but did not have a real good idea of what to do. Good context for taking a Rescue course the next week. It also convinced me to start using a Pirana as my device, so that various rescue operations are easier and faster.

In 110 days of guiding in the last three years, I have had clients get stuck on rappel three times. At ZAC we use autoblocs for self-belay because it provides the best experience (of several available flavors of belay), but even with full control over the parameters, the autoblocs get stuck on occassion. My three stuck clients were all stuck autoblocs, and all kids. (All ages stated are approximate).

A. First was a 7 yr old boy on a short rappel, and I rapped down next to him and helped him free it up, and he completed to the ground. Then I jugged back up (only a 25 foot rappel).

B. Second was a 9 yr old girl (from Scotland!) stuck on a free-hanging rappel about 15 feet off the ground. Again I rapped down and helped her free it up, and we rapped to the ground. Since I had an assistant guide on this trip, I did not have to jug back up (70 foot rappel, all free-hanging).

C. Third was a 13 yr old girl on the same rappel, who was about 10 feet off the ground. In this case, I converted to a lower, with the help of the father who was right next to me, and put her quickly on the ground.

Comments on choice of rescue technique:

My choice is mainly driven by what is going to work best psychologically for the client. Safety is of course job one, but after that, I want the experience for them to be as dignified as possible. Especially with young kids (under 11/12), this is perhaps their first opportunity to be treated as an adult, and do EVERYTHING for themselves. So, we do not rig them up on rappel, we teach them how to rig themselves up, and they do it themselves. If they miss something or forget, we playfully remind them or suggest or re-teach, but we don't do it for them. In the first two cases, the kids are left with the experience of "they did it themselves, under Tom's watchful eye and with a teeny bit of help", rather than "I screwed up and the guide had to rescue me". In the third instance, the 13 yr old girl was uncomfortable hanging in the harness (not enough ice cream in her diet) and it was clear that the problem was an equipment problem, so I thought the quicker solution of putting her on the ground was better. That the dad got to help (pull up on the rope) was a bonus, though that was partly due to the fact that pulling up on the rope was much harder than I expected. The gal only weighed 90 lbs, but the rope crossed the edge at about a 135 degree angle, and there was more friction than I would have guessed.

In my private travels, other than the one time with John, I cannot think of another instance of "stuck on rappel". (knock on wood). thanks be to the Gods - Jupiter Optimus Maximus, the first among equals.

Tom :moses:

[moab mark]

Just wonder how many of these "problems" could have been resolved easily by having the rope rigged with a contingency block?

They all could be resolved easier with a contingency if there is enough rope up top. 100' rope 60' rappel?

Tom,

When using a biner how long of a tail are you leaving now a days?

Mark

[hank moon]

Releasing a rope and lowering someone sure seems easier than setting up another rope and rappelling down and cutting hair or shirt to release someone on a rope? Especially a child.

A contingency might be useful in some situations, but not necessarily (e.g. awkward body position into swim or other awkward landing and/or rap path). I dunno about the "especially a child" part. Might take little more discipline to be lowered. Besides, this is about pickoffs isn't it? Good skill to practice.

[moab mark]

Releasing a rope and lowering someone sure seems easier than setting up another rope and rappelling down and cutting hair or shirt to release someone on a rope? Especially a child.

A contingency might be useful in some situations, but not necessarily (e.g. awkward body position into swim or other awkward landing and/or rap path). I dunno about the "especially a child" part. Might take little more discipline to be lowered. Besides, this is about pickoffs isn't it? Good skill to practice.

This is just my 2 cents but I am not a fan of lowering someone. You usually cannot see what is going on , there is no belay in place, and what if when lowering the person gets comfortable and is not holding on with their brake hand and now there hair pulls loose. I would not allow any of my family to be lowered because the rope was not set to the right length so now we have to let out some more. If it is an emergency then yes but not to adjust the length and before I released their anchor I would of had some one else rappel down and see if they could fix the problem.
I can see where the contingency concept has merit in class c canyons. But not with my wife on the end.

Just my 2 cents.

Mark

[Brian in SLC]

The problem with setting a contingency, every time, is that you get tired of it. No, it does not take real long, but considering the rate of problems is very, very low, even rigging-nazis like me become fed up with it.

I chuckle when I think of our debate on munter/mule v the figure eight contingency and how easy and fast one is/was v the other...


And don't let me see ya doin' those mis-guided double rope rappels - a sure formula for making things tough, should problems arise.

Hey! I resemble that remark...

Mis-guided. Funny.

When you consider how many more people climb, say, user days in the U.S., and rappel as climbers, and how many get stuck on a double rope rap's, which all climbers use, then, given the number of canyoneers who have experienced someone stuck on rappel...and...run on sentences...

My point is that, sure, I've heard of climbers who get stuck on rappel. Can't recall I've seen it personally, but, I've know folks who've been "stuck" (girth hitched figure eight on the free hanging rappel on the lost arrow spire in the City of Rocks is about the only one I can recall from someone I know personally). But, I've heard of a TON of canyon folks who get stuck on rappel. A few I know.

So, makes me wonder, why the difference in apparent numbers? Maybe its that canyoneering's essence is going down so that's a primary activity. And, most climbers seem to hate rappelling. Maybe that hate of rappelling acts like some kind of "stuck avoidance" or some such? Just postulating...but...since the point of "free climbing" is to not rely on gear, then, to have to rely on gear for a rappel, the senses are heightened in a way that folks pay closer attention? Dunno. Just brainstorming.

Maybe a double rope rappel is inherantly easier to control on rappel, leaving margin for important things like position and hair, etc?

Getting stuck on single OR double ropes would be unpleasant, in the least. Best to be avoided.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[oldno7]

Releasing a rope and lowering someone sure seems easier than setting up another rope and rappelling down and cutting hair or shirt to release someone on a rope? Especially a child.

A contingency might be useful in some situations, but not necessarily (e.g. awkward body position into swim or other awkward landing and/or rap path). I dunno about the "especially a child" part. Might take little more discipline to be lowered. Besides, this is about pickoffs isn't it? Good skill to practice.

This is just my 2 cents but I am not a fan of lowering someone. You usually cannot see what is going on , there is no belay in place, and what if when lowering the person gets comfortable and is not holding on with their brake hand and now there hair pulls loose. I would not allow any of my family to be lowered because the rope was not set to the right length so now we have to let out some more. If it is an emergency then yes but not to adjust the length and before I released their anchor I would of had some one else rappel down and see if they could fix the problem.
I can see where the contingency concept has merit in class c canyons. But not with my wife on the end.

Just my 2 cents.

Mark

Hank
Pick-off's should not be the first line of thought for a person stuck on rappel. It takes considerable time to effect and is a complex maneuver most would not know how to perform.
Your first thought should be a remote rescue, ie--lowering this person from above or if a troublesome lowering area--hauling them back up. Pre-rigging for contingency is a simple method of rigging that should probably be used more, especially by beginners. Or as Tom pointed out, be able to convert a block to a lower, and I'll throw in a haul. It is even more complex to perform these operation's(lower/haul) when double strand rigging is used.
Mark
You have an unfounded fear about lowering, it is simple and safe. It takes a person knowing what they are doing, but that can be anyone. I've taught this to 12 year old kids and watched them lower adult's in a canyon. One must pay attention, but not much more than when they are rappelling and not letting go of a brake hand.
This ties in nicely to your question elsewhere, about tossing down the rope bag. It is alway's prudent to have enough extra rope left up top, that the last person can take care of these simple problem's. If you block the tail of your rope and throw down the bag, you just threw down your ability to correct a potential problem.
I think in the not to distant future, due to the popularity of canyoneering, we are going to start seeing a lot more problem's involving those who fail to take into consideration, before every trip--"What If"

[moab mark]

Brian,
This is way off of the original topic but I know nuttin about climbing. When free climbing as they go up they place gear along the way and have somene belaying them on the ground? When they get to the top how do they get the rope set to rappel double? When rappeling back down how is the gear cleaned up? Basically looking for a rudimentary understanding of how it works.

Mark

[moab mark]

Releasing a rope and lowering someone sure seems easier than setting up another rope and rappelling down and cutting hair or shirt to release someone on a rope? Especially a child.

A contingency might be useful in some situations, but not necessarily (e.g. awkward body position into swim or other awkward landing and/or rap path). I dunno about the "especially a child" part. Might take little more discipline to be lowered. Besides, this is about pickoffs isn't it? Good skill to practice.

This is just my 2 cents but I am not a fan of lowering someone. You usually cannot see what is going on , there is no belay in place, and what if when lowering the person gets comfortable and is not holding on with their brake hand and now there hair pulls loose. I would not allow any of my family to be lowered because the rope was not set to the right length so now we have to let out some more. If it is an emergency then yes but not to adjust the length and before I released their anchor I would of had some one else rappel down and see if they could fix the problem.
I can see where the contingency concept has merit in class c canyons. But not with my wife on the end.

Just my 2 cents.

Mark

Hank
Pick-off's should not be the first line of thought for a person stuck on rappel. It takes considerable time to effect and is a complex maneuver most would not know how to perform.
Your first thought should be a remote rescue, ie--lowering this person from above or if a troublesome lowering area--hauling them back up. Pre-rigging for contingency is a simple method of rigging that should probably be used more, especially by beginners. Or as Tom pointed out, be able to convert a block to a lower, and I'll throw in a haul. It is even more complex to perform these operation's(lower/haul) when double strand rigging is used.
Mark
You have an unfounded fear about lowering, it is simple and safe. It takes a person knowing what they are doing, but that can be anyone. I've taught this to 12 year old kids and watched them lower adult's in a canyon. One must pay attention, but not much more than when they are rappelling and not letting go of a brake hand.
This ties in nicely to your question elsewhere, about tossing down the rope bag. It is alway's prudent to have enough extra rope left up top, that the last person can take care of these simple problem's. If you block the tail of your rope and throw down the bag, you just threw down your ability to correct a potential problem.
I think in the not to distant future, due to the popularity of canyoneering, we are going to start seeing a lot more problem's involving those who fail to take into consideration, before every trip--"What If"

I don't have a fear of it, I do set up releasable at times. I just don't think it is prudent to toss down some rope, have someone go over the edge then yell up were 20' short and then make adjustments with someone hanging that's all. Why take the chance. I have lowered in a controlled environment. Made nasty rope grooves in the rock. Doesn't having a 2nd rope at the top make it possible to resolve most problems? I never toss the bag and then be in a position of that is all we have.


Every situation is different but maybe this will help explain my thinking. Unless you are hauling a 200' rope most of the rappels I am doing require 2 ropes or some webbing etc involved to make the pull on a single. So if the rope won't double on it's own the contingency probably will not get them to the ground. I try to only haul lengths that will double the longest rappel. With a "what if" 40' rope as you so nicely showed me the benefits of in moab. :2thumbs:

I guess what it comes down to is what are people comfortable with. I feel comfortable with an extra rope up top and the ability to remove the biner and then lower as a last resort.

Mark

[oldno7]

Getting too many quotes up there^^^

using 2 ropes is fine for contingency..
Just tie your bend in the ropes below the rapide.
The last guy down has to remove the block.

[moab mark]

Getting too many quotes up there^^^

using 2 ropes is fine for contingency..
Just tie your bend in the ropes below the rapide.
The last guy down has to remove the block.

We have gotten way off track of the original idea of this post but,

Kurt, As your buddy Rich would say it depends,

Here's a scenario for you 2 100' ropes 65' could be a little more or less, rappel overhung and you cannot see the bottom. How are you going to rig it?

Mark

[oldno7]

o.k. I'll bite, you said a scenario for "you" meaning, me.

You told me the rap is 65'ish, even without knowing this distance, I would throw down approximately what I figured is enough rope, set a dynamic block.
If the first person get's into trouble 30' or so from the bottom, no problem,lower. If said person get's into trouble above 30'ish. No problem, start to lower and pass your knot(bend) when it get's to the rapide.

Now are you going to ask me how to pass a knot on a lower? :lol8:

[moab mark]

I wouldn't be needing to pass the knot, I have a way I would do it if I had to but since it's ugly outside and nothing else to do but work if you would like to enlighten us let's hear it.

Mark

[Brian in SLC]

This is way off of the original topic but I know nuttin about climbing. When free climbing as they go up they place gear along the way and have somene belaying them on the ground? When they get to the top how do they get the rope set to rappel double? When rappeling back down how is the gear cleaned up?

Yep. Depends on whether the belayer is following the pitch or not.

For short, half rope length type sport climbing, its very typical for someone to lead the route, then, lower off an anchor to the ground, and the belayer and leader trade spots, and the former belayer leads the route too. Then, the gear is cleaned either on rappel (or while being lower by the belayer) by the last person to climb the route.

There's a few variations on that theme. Standard type especially multi pitch climbing, the belayer becomes the follower up a pitch and cleans the gear. Once at the top of a route, if there's not a convenient way off, then they rig for rappels off the anchor they used on the way up, or, they build anchors for rappels on the way down (at this point it kinda looks like canyoneering).

Very uncommon to see climbers rappel on anything but a doubled rope. Also common to see climbers, especially on half pitch routes, lower from the anchor.

Back to being lowered...I kinda hate it. I'd much rather rappel. I get lowered in the climbing gym all the time and I still never really get that comfy with it. Maybe I have control issues! Ha ha.

-Brian in SLC

[Brian in SLC]

Pick-off's should not be the first line of thought for a person stuck on rappel. It takes considerable time to effect and is a complex maneuver most would not know how to perform.
Your first thought should be a remote rescue, ie--lowering this person from above or if a troublesome lowering area--hauling them back up. Pre-rigging for contingency is a simple method of rigging that should probably be used more, especially by beginners. Or as Tom pointed out, be able to convert a block to a lower, and I'll throw in a haul. It is even more complex to perform these operation's(lower/haul) when double strand rigging is used.

My bet is a pick off is faster and more efficient than rigging a haul for someone stuck on a rope. I can't imagine hauling someone back up to an anchor who's hair was stuck in their rappel device, especially given some terrain considerations. And, rigging off what anchor? A stack of rocks with a sling sticking out of the sand? Also, the haulee couldn't do much to guide themselves away from any features (their hands would be fairly tied up). A pick off would be fast and might solve the problem much faster and the rappeller may just continue on their way.

All this stuff makes me think folks should be carrying an extra rope...!

And give thoughts to "rescue worthy" anchor solutions...

-Brian in SLC

[cookiecutter]

I wouldn't be needing to pass the knot, I have a way I would do it if I had to but since it's ugly outside and nothing else to do but work if you would like to enlighten us let's here it.

Mark

I'll bite, as it is very cold here as well..

You see the knot coming to the rapide, stop lowering once it is about 2-3 feet from the rapide and lock it off. Take the rope that is behind the knot and tie a munter/mule onto another biner and hook it up on the webbing. Rig a prussic on the rope going down to your buddy. From here there are two ways I know how to due it. 1. Either take the extra bit of prussic cord and tie a munter/mule connecting it to the webbing. Start feeding the rope again, it is taken up by the prussic. Release the original contingency then release the prussic contingency. Once released the contingency on the rope behind the knot will take it up. Remove prussic, and lower.
2. Rig a mariner hitch going from the prussic up to the webbing. Feed rope through, it will be taken up by the prussic. Release original contingency. Release mariner, weight will now be put on our contingency behind the knot. Release prussic, lower. Neither of these has your buddy relying on a prussic alone.

[moab mark]

This is way off of the original topic but I know nuttin about climbing. When free climbing as they go up they place gear along the way and have somene belaying them on the ground? When they get to the top how do they get the rope set to rappel double? When rappeling back down how is the gear cleaned up?

Yep. Depends on whether the belayer is following the pitch or not.

For short, half rope length type sport climbing, its very typical for someone to lead the route, then, lower off an anchor to the ground, and the belayer and leader trade spots, and the former belayer leads the route too. Then, the gear is cleaned either on rappel (or while being lower by the belayer) by the last person to climb the route.

There's a few variations on that theme. Standard type especially multi pitch climbing, the belayer becomes the follower up a pitch and cleans the gear. Once at the top of a route, if there's not a convenient way off, then they rig for rappels off the anchor they used on the way up, or, they build anchors for rappels on the way down (at this point it kinda looks like canyoneering).

Very uncommon to see climbers rappel on anything but a doubled rope. Also common to see climbers, especially on half pitch routes, lower from the anchor.

Back to being lowered...I kinda hate it. I'd much rather rappel. I get lowered in the climbing gym all the time and I still never really get that comfy with it. Maybe I have control issues! Ha ha.

-Brian in SLC

I assume they are just rappeling double because it's easy to rig and go and very seldom do they have problems rappeling.

Another questions, from what I hear most climbers are using some sort of an atc? When rappeling down and cleaning gear how are they tying off?
Thanks

[trackrunner]

Another questions, from what I hear most climbers are using some sort of an atc? When rappeling down and cleaning gear how are they tying off?
Thanks

The one's I see usually use a leg wrap.

[oldno7]

Pick-off's should not be the first line of thought for a person stuck on rappel. It takes considerable time to effect and is a complex maneuver most would not know how to perform.
Your first thought should be a remote rescue, ie--lowering this person from above or if a troublesome lowering area--hauling them back up. Pre-rigging for contingency is a simple method of rigging that should probably be used more, especially by beginners. Or as Tom pointed out, be able to convert a block to a lower, and I'll throw in a haul. It is even more complex to perform these operation's(lower/haul) when double strand rigging is used.

I can't imagine hauling someone back up to an anchor who's hair was stuck in their rappel device, especially given some terrain considerations.

All this stuff makes me think folks should be carrying an extra rope...!





You've got me on the stuck hair Brian, I can't imagine being hauled in that situation either. I honestly think lowering off a contingency will solve 95% of CP canyon dilemma's regarding being stuck on rope. If we throw in water, it definitely changes things, as does whether the victim can help or is even conscience. Too many scenario's to be able to write one solution for sure.
As Mark stated earlier, I alway's carry an extra rope in my pack on all canyon's. I never include it's length in the equation of, do we have enough rope for this canyon. It is "extra". I used to carry an 80' piece of canyon pro, but somehow it got turned into 2-40's at last years Moab Rondy.

[moab mark]

I wouldn't be needing to pass the knot, I have a way I would do it if I had to but since it's ugly outside and nothing else to do but work if you would like to enlighten us let's here it.

Mark

I'll bite, as it is very cold here as well..

You see the knot coming to the rapide, stop lowering once it is about 2-3 feet from the rapide and lock it off. Take the rope that is behind the knot and tie a munter/mule onto another biner and hook it up on the webbing. Rig a prussic on the rope going down to your buddy. From here there are two ways I know how to due it. 1. Either take the extra bit of prussic cord and tie a munter/mule connecting it to the webbing. Start feeding the rope again, it is taken up by the prussic. Release the original contingency then release the prussic contingency. Once released the contingency on the rope behind the knot will take it up. Remove prussic, and lower.
2. Rig a mariner hitch going from the prussic up to the webbing. Feed rope through, it will be taken up by the prussic. Release original contingency. Release mariner, weight will now be put on our contingency behind the knot. Release prussic, lower. Neither of these has your buddy relying on a prussic alone.

I would do pretty much the same but a little different. If it was an emergency I would rig rope behind knot with a munter on a different webbing or above the over hand knot with the rapide in it. I would then lower the original cont. onto the munter. Then I would either undo the rapide or just cut it out. Then lower on the munter.

Mark

[oldno7]

I wouldn't be needing to pass the knot, I have a way I would do it if I had to but since it's ugly outside and nothing else to do but work if you would like to enlighten us let's here it.

Mark

I'll bite, as it is very cold here as well..

You see the knot coming to the rapide, stop lowering once it is about 2-3 feet from the rapide and lock it off. Take the rope that is behind the knot and tie a munter/mule onto another biner and hook it up on the webbing. Rig a prussic on the rope going down to your buddy. From here there are two ways I know how to due it. 1. Either take the extra bit of prussic cord and tie a munter/mule connecting it to the webbing. Start feeding the rope again, it is taken up by the prussic. Release the original contingency then release the prussic contingency. Once released the contingency on the rope behind the knot will take it up. Remove prussic, and lower.
2. Rig a mariner hitch going from the prussic up to the webbing. Feed rope through, it will be taken up by the prussic. Release original contingency. Release mariner, weight will now be put on our contingency behind the knot. Release prussic, lower. Neither of these has your buddy relying on a prussic alone.

I would do pretty much the same but a little different. If it was an emergency I would rig rope behind knot with a munter on a different webbing or above the over hand knot with the rapide in it. I would then lower the original cont. onto the munter. Then I would either undo the rapide or just cut it out. Then lower on the munter.

Mark

You just passed a knot.

[Brian in SLC]

I assume they are just rappeling double because it's easy to rig and go and very seldom do they have problems rappeling.

Yeah, its standard. All climbers are taught that way. Very few who use a real thin pull cord might use some type of block but its rare.

Look at any instructional "how to climb" book and you'll see rappelling defined as using two strands.


Another questions, from what I hear most climbers are using some sort of an atc? When rappeling down and cleaning gear how are they tying off?

Yeah, ATC type device. Almost exclusively. Except folks who use only a gri gri for single pitch stuff sports type climbing (although rare they wouldn't have an ATC too).

They typically don't tie off at all. Just stop the rappel with a brake hand, pluck the gear with the other hand, and they're off.

Very very rarely do climbers tie off to retrieve gear on rappel. If they do, they usually just use a leg wrap and in some cases might use a body wrap or tie off their rappel/belay device.

Edit to add: one of my main partners makes a point of loading up and stopping on his autoblock so climbers use that as a method to stop on rappel too. I'm convinced he mostly does it to show me that I should be using one too! Pretty funny. But, super effective and easy to stop and go.

Usually, there's enough friction with a fat single climbing rope that just locking off a rappel with the brake hand works fine for even extended periods of time.

This single rope rappelling thing that canyoneers use is pretty interesting. Its probably the single technique that twists climber's heads up a bit. And, when folks don't rig for contingency, then some of us fail to understand why rappel single at all, when you have plenty of fat rope available.

I guess I've harped on this enough, but...look at the number of accidents related to not being able to control a single rope rappel...could be the #1 cause of canyon accidents?

Anyhoo, advantages and disadvantages to both.

-Brian in SLC

[cookiecutter]

I wouldn't be needing to pass the knot, I have a way I would do it if I had to but since it's ugly outside and nothing else to do but work if you would like to enlighten us let's here it.

Mark

I'll bite, as it is very cold here as well..

You see the knot coming to the rapide, stop lowering once it is about 2-3 feet from the rapide and lock it off. Take the rope that is behind the knot and tie a munter/mule onto another biner and hook it up on the webbing. Rig a prussic on the rope going down to your buddy. From here there are two ways I know how to due it. 1. Either take the extra bit of prussic cord and tie a munter/mule connecting it to the webbing. Start feeding the rope again, it is taken up by the prussic. Release the original contingency then release the prussic contingency. Once released the contingency on the rope behind the knot will take it up. Remove prussic, and lower.
2. Rig a mariner hitch going from the prussic up to the webbing. Feed rope through, it will be taken up by the prussic. Release original contingency. Release mariner, weight will now be put on our contingency behind the knot. Release prussic, lower. Neither of these has your buddy relying on a prussic alone.

I would do pretty much the same but a little different. If it was an emergency I would rig rope behind knot with a munter on a different webbing or above the over hand knot with the rapide in it. I would then lower the original cont. onto the munter. Then I would either undo the rapide or just cut it out. Then lower on the munter.

Mark

I like your idea. I'd wager its a bit faster than the options I presented, I'll give it some practice.

[moab mark]

Since we have pretty much moved off track.

We have now passed a knot, not as bad as a kidney stone but close.

Does anyone have a technique to remove a biner block without placing your buddy on a rope grab of some sort? Without removing the rapide or using a knife?

Brian,

Just my thoughts on rappeling single. If we were rappeling double all the time we would need to haul more rope in case we had a problem. Unable to use the pull side for rescue etc?
Thanks for the climbing responses.
Mark

[moab mark]

Since we have pretty much moved off track.

We have now passed a knot, not as bad as a kidney stone but close.

Does anyone have a technique to remove a biner block without placing your buddy on a rope grab of some sort? Without removing the rapide or using a knife?

Brian,

Just my thoughts on rappeling single. If we were rappeling double all the time we would need to haul more rope in case we had a problem. Unable to use the pull side for rescue etc?
Thanks for the climbing responses.
Mark

[hank moon]

oldno...

i agree with you that remote should be considered first. somewhere along the way i got it in my head that this thread was about pickoffs, hence i went off in an awkward direction on first post. i've done a lot of "remote" rescues (mostly lowers, some hauls) but never a pickoff or the like. in the stuck body parts scenario, I think it would be nice to get to the victim quickly and alleviate pain/suffering if possible. Psychologically, being lowered or hauled out of a bad situation is tough (but often necessary).


<aside>
Me and my buddy Roger were first responders to a pit rescue in TN once...some non-local guy had rapped 150' down a 300' waterfall pit (in-cave) and was unable to continue up or down. Since he'd been hanging there for awhile in 54

[hank moon]

Does anyone have a technique to remove a biner block without placing your buddy on a rope grab of some sort? Without removing the rapide or using a knife?

Are you counting a Prusik (or other friction hitch) as a "rope grab"?

[cookiecutter]

Since we have pretty much moved off track.

We have now passed a knot, not as bad as a kidney stone but close.

Does anyone have a technique to remove a biner block without placing your buddy on a rope grab of some sort? Without removing the rapide or using a knife?
Mark

I'd be interested in learning this as well. I'd like to learn Tom's method, I think he says 30 sec to covert to lower. That'd be good to have in the bag.

Looking at the situation right now I can come up with throwing some new webbing up, rigging the rope behind the block with contingency, cutting the sling with biner block, and lower. But that involves cutting - outside the scenario rules.

[oldno7]

Does anyone have a technique to remove a biner block without placing your buddy on a rope grab of some sort? Without removing the rapide or using a knife?



I'm guessing your talking about removing the biner to lower?
If that is the case, don't rig with a static biner block, use a dynamic fig 8 block. One can be rigged faster than a properly dressed biner block and you have a contingency system. I don't think the weight or bulk argument holds any water when you compare a standard fig. 8 vs. say a William's carabiner.

Otherwise back to your biner block--seem's you need some type of grab. First you have to haul to release the biner from the rapide.

[moab mark]

Since we have pretty much moved off track.

We have now passed a knot, not as bad as a kidney stone but close.

Does anyone have a technique to remove a biner block without placing your buddy on a rope grab of some sort? Without removing the rapide or using a knife?
Mark

I'd be interested in learning this as well. I'd like to learn Tom's method, I think he says 30 sec to covert to lower. That'd be good to have in the bag.

Looking at the situation right now I can come up with throwing some new webbing up, rigging the rope behind the block with contingency, cutting the sling with biner block, and lower. But that involves cutting - outside the scenario rules.

Tom will probably chime in but that is how he pretty much does it. He posted on here a year or so ago about cutting the webbing. When I learned that I started leaving a longer tail with my biner block so I had enough to tie on the other rope to lower. Tom had decided a plasma cutter would be a little heavy to haul thru canyons to cut the biner so just cut the webbing.

As far as what kurt just asked, yes you would have to lift to remove the biner. Can you lift to get the biner out and then lower without ever having the person hanging on a prussic, tibloc etc alone?

[cookiecutter]

As far as what kurt just asked, yes you would have to lift to remove the biner. Can you lift to get the biner out and then lower without ever having the person hanging on a prussic, tibloc etc alone?

This has turned out to be a very informative post, thanks!

For this situation I would probably rig the contingency onto the webbing and lock it off before hauling up to remove the biner. This way the weight is all on the prussic but there is redundancy with the already rigged contingency. In the event the prussic fails there will be some extension, not a lot, but some, so I'd make sure the anchor was solid.

[CarpeyBiggs]

suspension trauma discussion is now in a separate thread.

[ratagonia]

This is just my 2 cents but I am not a fan of lowering someone. You usually cannot see what is going on , there is no belay in place, and what if when lowering the person gets comfortable and is not holding on with their brake hand and now there hair pulls loose. I would not allow any of my family to be lowered because the rope was not set to the right length so now we have to let out some more. If it is an emergency then yes but not to adjust the length and before I released their anchor I would of had some one else rappel down and see if they could fix the problem.
I can see where the contingency concept has merit in class c canyons. But not with my wife on the end.

Just my 2 cents.

Mark

Practice produces understanding. No technique is useful if it is not understood. You should not lower people, if you have not practiced it in controlled circumstances so that you can understand it.

Which means, friend Mark, y'alls got some lowering to do, so that this eminently useful tool is inside your toolbox, rather than rusting on the ground behind the garage.

Personally, I like the two-broken-wrists scenario (call it the "Ricky Scenario") at the last rap in Pine Creek. Pick on someone robust, and let other people coach them. Alicia hated it, but hey, we were already 'divorced'.

T :moses:

Tom

[moab mark]

What is the 2 broken wrist scenario?

Tom do you use a munter or a fig 8 for a contingency?

Mark

[ratagonia]

Pick-off's should not be the first line of thought for a person stuck on rappel. It takes considerable time to effect and is a complex maneuver most would not know how to perform.
Your first thought should be a remote rescue, ie--lowering this person from above or if a troublesome lowering area--hauling them back up. Pre-rigging for contingency is a simple method of rigging that should probably be used more, especially by beginners. Or as Tom pointed out, be able to convert a block to a lower, and I'll throw in a haul. It is even more complex to perform these operation's(lower/haul) when double strand rigging is used.

My bet is a pick off is faster and more efficient than rigging a haul for someone stuck on a rope. I can't imagine hauling someone back up to an anchor who's hair was stuck in their rappel device, especially given some terrain considerations. And, rigging off what anchor? A stack of rocks with a sling sticking out of the sand? Also, the haulee couldn't do much to guide themselves away from any features (their hands would be fairly tied up). A pick off would be fast and might solve the problem much faster and the rappeller may just continue on their way.

All this stuff makes me think folks should be carrying an extra rope...!

And give thoughts to "rescue worthy" anchor solutions...

-Brian in SLC

As Kurty said, a pickoff is slow, complex and relatively dangerous. Hauling is even slower, is complex and relatively dangerous. Neither of these is at the top of my list. A haul, only when the victim is close and the haul can be effected quickly, especially useful whent he victim can help.

A lower tends to be fastest, safest, easiest - has most of the benes. The first technique to go to. Rap and assist (rather than a true pickoff) can also be a good choice. Helps to have the Pirana for either of those.

A pickoff CAN be efficient if it is well-practiced. Out-weighing the pick makes it quite a bit easier.

(Take Note, Bogle fans, Kurty and I AGREE!! :nod: )

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

What is the 2 broken wrist scenario?

Tom do you use a munter or a fig 8 for a contingency?

Mark

I use a Munter Mule. Can't see any reason to carry a piece of hardware to do something a knot can do just as well.

The "two-broken-wrist-scenario" is at the top of the last rap in Pine Creek, you turn to your wife and say:

"Tad just broke both his wrists. I'm not here. What you gonna do???"

If you're me, you then pull out your sandwich and a beer, and sit back and watch the show. Keep an eye on em, don't let em do anything stupid. Exercise great patience, and let them all work it out. I like to have the rule that they have to say what they are going to do before they do it (Think out loud). And that they can not ask me questions, but they can tell me what they plan on doing and I can say yeah or neh. And then, every couple of minutes I toss in a "could you be doing that better?" comment - whether I see something or not.

That's actually how John got stuck on rappel. After Nadine and Jim had done the two broken wrists scenario, John rapped down on the rope which was not hanging free (as a result of the rescue scenario), and was not paying attention to the rope below him, and hit a twistie 15 feet up.

Thankfully, I had my "rescue rope" at hand, and dashed down to try and help out.

:moses:

[moab mark]

I wouldn't be needing to pass the knot, I have a way I would do it if I had to but since it's ugly outside and nothing else to do but work if you would like to enlighten us let's here it.

Mark

I'll bite, as it is very cold here as well..

You see the knot coming to the rapide, stop lowering once it is about 2-3 feet from the rapide and lock it off. Take the rope that is behind the knot and tie a munter/mule onto another biner and hook it up on the webbing. Rig a prussic on the rope going down to your buddy. From here there are two ways I know how to due it. 1. Either take the extra bit of prussic cord and tie a munter/mule connecting it to the webbing. Start feeding the rope again, it is taken up by the prussic. Release the original contingency then release the prussic contingency. Once released the contingency on the rope behind the knot will take it up. Remove prussic, and lower.
2. Rig a mariner hitch going from the prussic up to the webbing. Feed rope through, it will be taken up by the prussic. Release original contingency. Release mariner, weight will now be put on our contingency behind the knot. Release prussic, lower. Neither of these has your buddy relying on a prussic alone.

I would do pretty much the same but a little different. If it was an emergency I would rig rope behind knot with a munter on a different webbing or above the over hand knot with the rapide in it. I would then lower the original cont. onto the munter. Then I would either undo the rapide or just cut it out. Then lower on the munter.

Mark

Using the above concept. I would like some feed back on this idea. If you had to lower and needed to tie 2 ropes together but the situation would not allow you to tie the ropes together above the rapide. Would tying a single fisherman on the rappel strand and then sliding it up to the rapide (in this situation lets say you have a biner as the block) then cutting the rapide loose could you now lower on the single fisherman and feel comfortable?

Mark

[oldno7]

A fisherman is not really designed to "grab" a rope.(function's better as a bend) I would prefer a "hitch", such as a prusik,klemheist, etc. Or a mechanical grab.
Leaving the biner in place, or tying a "safety" knot above the grab would be wise.

[moab mark]

A fisherman is not really designed to "grab" a rope.(function's better as a bend) I would prefer a "hitch", such as a prusik,klemheist, etc. Or a mechanical grab.
Leaving the biner in place, or tying a "safety" knot above the grab would be wise.

Would it be grabbing the rope or just acting like one side of a double fisherman. With the other side of the fisherman being the biner/rapide?
I have never had to do this but lowering on a 6mm prussic etc. when it has to pass over an edge seems a little risky? Couldn't the edge slide the prussic up?

Mark

[ratagonia]

Using the above concept. I would like some feed back on this idea. If you had to lower and needed to tie 2 ropes together but the situation would not allow you to tie the ropes together above the rapide. Would tying a single fisherman on the rappel strand and then sliding it up to the rapide (in this situation lets say you have a biner as the block) then cutting the rapide loose could you now lower on the single fisherman and feel comfortable?

Mark

uh, trying to imagine why you would want to do this. When you get near the end, you tie on the second rope using a respectable bend.

OK, now you want to get the load onto the second rope. Many ways to do this, but seems like the fastest would be to set up another anchor back behind (using meat, perhaps); RIGGING it as a lower on the second rope; pulling it tight, then cutting loose the webbing on the first anchor. Yup, might end up with the rapide left on the rope - no big deal. Might end up with the previous lowering system on the rope. Etc. Best if you can get rid of that stuff, but you're doin' a fetchin' rescue, do what is fast.

Then again, sliding the rapide 100' down the rappel rope into the victim might solve all the rescue problems... not a good idea.

Tom :moses:

[moab mark]

Using the above concept. I would like some feed back on this idea. If you had to lower and needed to tie 2 ropes together but the situation would not allow you to tie the ropes together above the rapide. Would tying a single fisherman on the rappel strand and then sliding it up to the rapide (in this situation lets say you have a biner as the block) then cutting the rapide loose could you now lower on the single fisherman and feel comfortable?

Mark

uh, trying to imagine why you would want to do this. When you get near the end, you tie on the second rope using a respectable bend.

OK, now you want to get the load onto the second rope. Many ways to do this, but seems like the fastest would be to set up another anchor back behind (using meat, perhaps); RIGGING it as a lower on the second rope; pulling it tight, then cutting loose the webbing on the first anchor. Yup, might end up with the rapide left on the rope - no big deal. Might end up with the previous lowering system on the rope. Etc. Best if you can get rid of that stuff, but you're doin' a fetchin' rescue, do what is fast.

Then again, sliding the rapide 100' down the rappel rope into the victim might solve all the rescue problems... not a good idea.

Tom :moses:

I guess I should of stated the scenario a little better. You have a biner block with a 3" tail hows the best way to attach to lower? What about tying a stopper in the 3" tail and just clipping into the biner that is being used as the block?

[oldno7]

Sure the edge can slide a hitch up, potentially. It can potentially also release a mechanical device, and abrade through a knot, even if the knot is made with thicker rope(8-9mm) Each instance will dictate the proper, or best tool for the situation.

[ratagonia]

Using the above concept. I would like some feed back on this idea. If you had to lower and needed to tie 2 ropes together but the situation would not allow you to tie the ropes together above the rapide. Would tying a single fisherman on the rappel strand and then sliding it up to the rapide (in this situation lets say you have a biner as the block) then cutting the rapide loose could you now lower on the single fisherman and feel comfortable?

Mark

uh, trying to imagine why you would want to do this. When you get near the end, you tie on the second rope using a respectable bend.

OK, now you want to get the load onto the second rope. Many ways to do this, but seems like the fastest would be to set up another anchor back behind (using meat, perhaps); RIGGING it as a lower on the second rope; pulling it tight, then cutting loose the webbing on the first anchor. Yup, might end up with the rapide left on the rope - no big deal. Might end up with the previous lowering system on the rope. Etc. Best if you can get rid of that stuff, but you're doin' a fetchin' rescue, do what is fast.

Then again, sliding the rapide 100' down the rappel rope into the victim might solve all the rescue problems... not a good idea.

Tom :moses:

I guess I should of stated the scenario a little better. You have a biner block with a 3" tail hows the best way to attach to lower? What about tying a stopper in the 3" tail and just clipping into the biner that is being used as the block?

WHY oh WHY would you tie a biner block and leave only a 3" tail. Makes zero sense to me. ALWAYS ALWAYS leave enough tail to tie in another rope. At the least I usually pull out a foot or two.

But the answer to your scenario, yes, I would tie a single fisherman around the taut line below the rapide, and allow the rapide and blocked biner to snug up against the knot.

Sliding the rope down the rock with anything on it other than itself (a knot, a biner block, and bungle of block, knot and lowering system) is gonna be hard on the rope and scrape up the outside, even possibly cutting it.

Be careful out there.

Tom

[oldno7]

Using the above concept. I would like some feed back on this idea. If you had to lower and needed to tie 2 ropes together but the situation would not allow you to tie the ropes together above the rapide. Would tying a single fisherman on the rappel strand and then sliding it up to the rapide (in this situation lets say you have a biner as the block) then cutting the rapide loose could you now lower on the single fisherman and feel comfortable?

Mark

uh, trying to imagine why you would want to do this. When you get near the end, you tie on the second rope using a respectable bend.

OK, now you want to get the load onto the second rope. Many ways to do this, but seems like the fastest would be to set up another anchor back behind (using meat, perhaps); RIGGING it as a lower on the second rope; pulling it tight, then cutting loose the webbing on the first anchor. Yup, might end up with the rapide left on the rope - no big deal. Might end up with the previous lowering system on the rope. Etc. Best if you can get rid of that stuff, but you're doin' a fetchin' rescue, do what is fast.

Then again, sliding the rapide 100' down the rappel rope into the victim might solve all the rescue problems... not a good idea.

Tom :moses:

I guess I should of stated the scenario a little better. You have a biner block with a 3" tail hows the best way to attach to lower? What about tying a stopper in the 3" tail and just clipping into the biner that is being used as the block?

3 frickin' inches??? Now your scarring me..............


edit: posted the same time as Tom

[oldno7]

Also--If your going to be doing any lowering and a knot will be passed over an abrading surface, I suggest you wrap or pad the knot to protect it.
I have personally witnessed an 8mm canyon pro ds used in a similar incident, abrade through the sheath and start on the core in less than 8' of running over sandstone.

[moab mark]

I am not leaving a 3" tail I just stated that for my scenario. My thinking was with the knot above the biner it may be harder to get the backup tight before cutting the webbing. But with the single fisherman below the rapide you might be able to clip into the webbing above the overhand knot and be able to take up the slack before cutting the webbing. Thus not needing another anchor?

Since I am suppose to be reconciling bank statements and I do not want to.

If I had someone needing lowering on a biner block. I actually would not do any of the above unless a last resort. Unless the poor victim was out cold I would just lower the other rope down with a biner in the end. I would have them clip it to their harness. Then rig it for a lower, take up the slack and then cut the other rapide out. Then lower on the new rope, do not have the problem of knot, rope grab etc going over the edge.

Now back to work. Work sucks.

Mark