Ascending a Rope?

[moab mark]

Now that Ram has showed me some new places to play in the furnace. We tried to create a new loop and rappeled into a dark abyss today. We got nervous about going farther, did not have head lamps and could hear water when we dropped rocks, so we jugged back out. At the top the edge had a pretty good overhang. With all I had I could not push my ascender over the edge. I would even put my feet against the wall and push out with all I had but could still not get it around the edge. Luckily there was a low spot in the rock on top and I was able to grab the rope and just muscled my way up. Is there some trick you pro juggers use? I was using a ropeman, my son came up next using a full handle ascender and the last kid in our group tried it with a tibloc. No one could do it. This was the first rope they had ever ascended and they were not trying nearly as hard as I was at getting over the edge. So maybe with the tibloc or hand ascender I could of done it but not with a ropeman. I had my son and his buddy on a belay rope and I just yanked them up.

After the fact I thought I could of probably of taken a tibloc and attached it onto the rope on top and then weighted it and then climb out?

I was not to concerned with how I got out due to the height and I was not free hanging. But if I would of been 150' off the deck and free hanging I might of wet myself.

Any great suggestions or just muscle it or wet yourself? :ne_nau:

Mark

P.S. Ram my kid and his buddy think you are the bomb. We did the same loop you took us on with a few add ons. They went thru cave hall but not yours truly! :frustrated:

[Pelon1]

Was your foot loop above or below your harness attachment. Seems to make getting over a lip easier if the harness attachment is below your foot loop..

[trackrunner]

If going over the lip I like the foot loop on top and progress capture at harness level. Mark give me some time and I'll dig up an a thread and some picture for you.

Or could start using some caving methods.

[denaliguide]

we used to just unclip one of our ascenders and place it up over the top of the lip. this being said, we also tied into the rope we were ascending every 15 or 20 feet with a figure eight and clipped it into our harness with a locking biner as a safety. go up another 15 or 20 and do it again, tie into another knot and untie the first one. this way if your ascender fails you have at least reduced the length of your potential fall.

did that make sense? :ne_nau:

[moab mark]

I had the ropeman as the top ascender with a tibloc below it for my other loop. Both were above the harness. I ascend about 6 ft and then take up the slack in my pirana. I usually either jug like this or have a tibloc for the foot loop and my ropeman attached to my belay loop as a capture device.

Mark

[trackrunner]

Mark you can asend like this with your ropeman. Put the ropeman where the grigri is.

http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Jug.htm

Also talked a little about in this ACA thread
http://canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3413

[moab mark]

we used to just unclip one of our ascenders and place it up over the top of the lip. this being said, we also tied into the rope we were ascending every 15 or 20 feet with a figure eight and clipped it into our harness with a locking biner as a safety. go up another 15 or 20 and do it again, tie into another knot and untie the first one. this way if your ascender fails you have at least reduced the length of your potential fall.

did that make sense? :ne_nau:

I think trying to place one of the ascending devices above the lip seems like the easiest. A tibloc would probably be the easiest to get onto the rope.

[moab mark]

Mark you can asend like this with your ropeman. Put the ropeman where the grigri is.

http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Jug.htm

Also talked a little about in this ACA thread
http://canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3413

That's how I use the ropeman when attached to my harness. I am not having trouble jugging the rope just looking for ideas on how to get over a nasty edge.

Giving it more thought afterwards, if I was pretty sure I would have to jug out and there was a nasty edge I would of placed a prussic or some other device on the rope on top before going down so I could of just used it.

Mark

[trackrunner]

That's how I use the ropeman when attached to my harness. I am not having trouble jugging the rope just looking for ideas on how to get over a nasty edge.


I've found this method easier getting over the edge. Take your above footloop ascender all the way to the edge. Then use your harness ascnder and suck up all the slack even getting the two ascender to meet if needed. You may now be able to use your body or feet to push off the edge and get the top ascender past the edge. From there work your way up.

:rockon:

[moab mark]

That's how I use the ropeman when attached to my harness. I am not having trouble jugging the rope just looking for ideas on how to get over a nasty edge.


I've found this method easier getting over the edge. Take your above footloop ascender all the way to the edge. Then use your harness ascnder and suck up all the slack even getting the two ascender to meet if needed. You may now be able to use your body or feet to push off the edge and get the top ascender past the edge. From there work your way up.

:rockon:

I agree with this, even with the lower tibloc snugged all the way up to my ropeman, when standing up in the lower loop I could not get my body high enough above the top ascender to really muscle it. If my waist would of been up higher I probably would of had better success. Trying to push the top ascender over the lip when it is even with or slightly below your head is tough. I also could of snugged myself up higher with my pirana but I just said bag it grabbed the rope and climbed out.

I do like jugging with the ropeman attached to the belay loop better, I used two foot loops to show my son a different way.

He came up with the ropeman as a capture device and the handled ascender for his foot loop.

Mark

[ratagonia]

Couple a thoughts:

1. Yes, you have to "jump" over the edge in some manner. A standard problem. Easier if you have or can make a third rope grab, for instance, by throwing a quick bachman knot on the rope above the edge.

2. It can help to get your body as high as possible, so you can reach easily over the edge. For instance, you may need to step higher in your foot loop (if your rig allows).

3. If you plan on jugging out, hang a foot loop below the lip (from the anchor. When the jugger gets to the lip, they can step over in the foot loop, taking the weight off the rope, then get their jugs over the edge and continue upward.

4. Instead of a 3rd rope grab, can tie a "chicken loop" just below the lower rope grab, clip into the harness (locking biner), then use one of the two primary rope grabs. You will need a foot loop on both working rope grabs, most likely, rather than the "canyoneer's setup" with one footloop and one direct to the harness, at least when you are above the lip.

Tom :moses:

[moab mark]

Couple a thoughts:

1. Yes, you have to "jump" over the edge in some manner. A standard problem. Easier if you have or can make a third rope grab, for instance, by throwing a quick bachman knot on the rope above the edge.

2. It can help to get your body as high as possible, so you can reach easily over the edge. For instance, you may need to step higher in your foot loop (if your rig allows).

3. If you plan on jugging out, hang a foot loop below the lip (from the anchor. When the jugger gets to the lip, they can step over in the foot loop, taking the weight off the rope, then get their jugs over the edge and continue upward.

4. Instead of a 3rd rope grab, can tie a "chicken loop" just below the lower rope grab, clip into the harness (locking biner), then use one of the two primary rope grabs. You will need a foot loop on both working rope grabs, most likely, rather than the "canyoneer's setup" with one footloop and one direct to the harness, at least when you are above the lip.

Tom :moses:

I have never tried it but it seems jamming a tibloc onto the rope on top would be easier then trying to tie a hitch?
Whats a Chicken Loop? Eight on a bight?

Mark

[moab mark]

Mark you can asend like this with your ropeman. Put the ropeman where the grigri is.

http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Jug.htm

Also talked a little about in this ACA thread
http://canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3413

Shaun,

A year or so ago I started a post over on the ACA about the chockstone site concept in regards to having some one on the ground pull down on the rope as the person ascended. You could basically raise someone up with them doing little work. There were several pros and cons stated and I was always going to try it out with my 8 year old but never have gotten around to it.

Has anyone used the concept shown on the above link and assisted the ascender by pulling down on the rope? If you have how did it work?

Mark

[nonot]

Jump and shove has worked for me so far, might take a couple tries though...or a dozen. Very difficult task indeed on a deep undercut. You're basically fighting your own body weight causing the rope's force towards the lip. Upper body strength will help you here, kids and women may have more difficulty.

I have a handled ascender and after placing it up as far as possible, it is easy to repeatedly ram it/shove it into/over the lip without injuring my hands/fingers. Doesn't sound like an option for you tibloc users. Sometimes carrying the extra weight does pay off, it's a tradeoff of capability vs personal suffering :).

If you cannot get the ascender over the edge with your body weight on the rope via the progress capture part, I wouldn't think a chicken sling/wrap around your foot is going to help, your weight is still all on the rope below the lip.

If you have another ascender or prussic you can attach on the rope above the edge, this is useful, but not always an option.

If you can use a feature in the rock to even slightly unweight the rope, this is useful but not always an option.

Be careful jumping if the anchor is sketchy. Having to do this is dangerous if in a waterfall, particularly if there's cold water.

[hank moon]

3. If you plan on jugging out, hang a foot loop below the lip (from the anchor. When the jugger gets to the lip, they can step over in the foot loop, taking the weight off the rope, then get their jugs over the edge and continue upward.


Generally speaking, this is the easiest way to do it. Cavers call it a "pigtail" and it is commonly used on very long (800' +) drops.

[hank moon]

A year or so ago I started a post over on the ACA about the chockstone site concept in regards to having some one on the ground pull down on the rope as the person ascended. You could basically raise someone up with them doing little work. There were several pros and cons stated and I was always going to try it out with my 8 year old but never have gotten around to it.

Has anyone used the concept shown on the above link and assisted the ascender by pulling down on the rope? If you have how did it work?

Mark

Mark, is this a separate topic or are you thinking this system could ease the overhung lip transition?

[cookiecutter]

Mark you can asend like this with your ropeman. Put the ropeman where the grigri is.

http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/Jug.htm

Also talked a little about in this ACA thread
http://canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3413
A year or so ago I started a post over on the ACA about the chockstone site concept in regards to having some one on the ground pull down on the rope as the person ascended. You could basically raise someone up with them doing little work. There were several pros and cons stated and I was always going to try it out with my 8 year old but never have gotten around to it.

Has anyone used the concept shown on the above link and assisted the ascender by pulling down on the rope? If you have how did it work?

Mark

I too use this technique to ascend, its a slick set up. I've never thought about using it to help someone else though. If helping kids ascend I would think the effort put into coordinating movement would outweigh the benefits of helping them up. I can only say for little sister, she is 12, but she seems to ascend quite easy on her own I think due to her low body weight. I'd have to test it out though.

I could see practical application if the person ascending had a sprained ankle or similar injury and it was pretty uncomfortable for them to do it on their own

[moab mark]

Separate topic, Shaun had posted the link to the site so I just brought it up. But it would probably help you get over the lip because you could pull your belay loop right up to the ascending device. My question was if someone has tried assisting someone while jugging? Giving a tug to help them move up. Communication would be a problem but a lighter person could probably be moved up a rope without a foot loop? Just a thought. When this was discussed a year or so ago on the aca site. Several of them brought up the point that pulling down on the rope to raise them would increase the pull on the anchor?

On the caver's using a pig tail, at 800' I promise you I would of wet myself!!!

I knew there was a 99% chance we were going to have to jug out of the hole in the furnace we went into. I mainly did it to see where we could go and my son and his buddy wanted to try to jug a rope. But now on I will place something on the rope over the lip to grab onto when planning on coming back out.

But following the other topic, if pulling down on the rope in the other scenario does not seem feasible. Does anyone have a technique they use to let small kids (8 year olds) ascend with some assistance? My 8 year old has tried using a foot loop and does not get very far. I have attached him to a belay rope and pulled him but he wants to feel more like he is doing it.



Mark

[cookiecutter]

What about the foot loop is tough for him? Minding the rope grab, the actual standing up?

[hank moon]

Does anyone have a technique they use to let small kids (8 year olds) ascend with some assistance? My 8 year old has tried using a foot loop and does not get very far. I have attached him to a belay rope and pulled him but he wants to feel more like he is doing it.


Mark, the Frog system should work well for that - just need to set it up properly (esp. dial in the footloop lengths). I find that beginners do better with two footloops. The only drawback is that it requires specialized gear. You can't set up a good Frog with 'emergency' ascenders such as Tibloc, Ropeman, etc. A proper caving seat harness and chest ascender are needed at a minimum. LMK if I can help with loaning you some stuff to check it out...

p.s. some frog essentials (top ascender and footloops not shown)

http://technology.darkfrontier.us/Vertical/Frog/Frog_02.jpg

[Partly Animal]

Mark,

This post probably doesn't add much to what has already been said but I had an epic once while jugging back up our rappel ropes after climbing Echo pinnacle north of Moab. It was a double rope rappel as is pretty normal for climbers. The knot was hanging up on a pretty sharp edge and we couldn't get the ropes down. We tried everything we could think of to get the knot over the edge including setting up a pulley system to increase our pulling power, all to no avail. We had to get them down because we were still about 100' feet up on a small ledge that required another rappel to get down from. We ended up fixing the end of one of the ropes and I jugged up the other. I was using handled ascenders and when I got up to the edge I was able to remove the upper one from the rope and reattaching it above the edge. I think that is a pretty common method among climbers in this situation. This is the same technique denaliguide mentioned in an earlier post. I don't know if this would have worked in your case without handled ascenders.

We ended up jugging the rope three times and were never able to get the ropes unstuck. It's been several years and we're still sitting on the ledge. I'm wondering if someone could come get us down.

Seriously though, the thing I'm really interested in is where you were in the furnace. If you're ever looking for partners on one of these trips I'd love to go.

Bruce

[moab mark]

From most of the posts it sounds like the best trick is to get something on the rope on top.

As far as the furnace, you take a left and then 2 rights........ Next time your headed down pm me and ill see what's going on. Always looking for an excuse.

Mark

[cookiecutter]

Here is a video showing a frog setup.
With this setup you can still help your son by weighting the down rope so the chest ascender can easily slide up.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF-xkQrb-6s