NEWS FLASH- Man Stuck in Nutty Putty Cave

[Iceaxe]

Crews work to rescue man stuck in cave
November 25th, 2009 @ 8:28am

UTAH COUNTY -- More than 30 rescuers are trying to reach a man stuck in the Nutty Putty Caves in Utah County.

The Utah County Sheriff's Office says the 26-year-old man was with a group of 11 people when he became lodged in a narrow part of a cave around 8:45 p.m. Tuesday. Friends called authorities around 9:30 p.m. saying the man was stuck and could move only a couple of inches.

A helicopter is on stand by and crews from Utah County and Orem City say it could be hours before they're able to free him.

The sheriff's office says the group had a permit to tour the caves.

People have become trapped in this area in the past, and crews have had to chip away at rock to free them.

http://www.ksl.com/emedia/slc/1597/159797/15979724.jpg

[Iceaxe]

Update: For those familiar with the cave he is stuck in the Birth Canal.

And here is the Beta for anyone interested in getting stuck... err... I mean exploring Nutty Putty Cave.

Nutty Putty Cave
http://climb-utah.com/WM/nutty.htm

:cool2:

[Redpb]

edit... you beat me to it.

[trackrunner]

edit... you beat me to it.

jumar beat both of you

http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=190933#190933

[accadacca]

Bring some Vaseline ... :haha:

[Iceaxe]

jumar beat both of you

Yeah... but he put it down where very few will read it. :haha:

[Iceaxe]

I've been reading some of the comments on the KSL board... pure comedy gold....

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=8800398&comments=true


A human body should only spelunker through the birth canal once in a life time..... One big push, a little yank and a slap on buttocks....everything will be just fine!



Maybe it should be the governments job to put all the stupid people in the Nutty Putty cave, then seal it up. But I think we need a much bigger cave!


Search & Rescue might have to let him go hungry for a few days until he loses some weight. . . like Winnie the Pooh had to do! Sorry about Thanksgiving this year Pal!

.

[Don]

I've been reading some of the comments on the KSL board... pure comedy gold....



FlieByNight
Report Comment 8:28am - Wed Nov 25th, 2009

@TripleTeazer - Chip away at the rock to get people free?? Great... Won't be able to call that area the "birth canal" after this. It will be like throwing a hotdog down a hallway.. :(

:roflol: :popcorn:

[Iceaxe]

I'm anxious to see the news footage of how they get the helicopter into the cave to rescue him.


They should leave him there to think about what his next smart move will be.

[Sombeech]

dang, the crews are there but he's still stuck. Expecting a few more hours.

[DiscGo]

I wonder if he is crying? I am pretty sure I would have lost it.



I don't know how familiar you guys are with the Nutty Putty caves but I'm quite certain it wouldn't be the Birth Canal but the wormhole in which he is stuck.

[accadacca]

The cave has been in labor for HOURS! Might be time for a c-section... :haha:

[Scott P]

I think getting stuck in the cave would be pretty scary and traumatic. I hope he gets out soon. I

[DiscGo]

[quote=Scott P]I think getting stuck in the cave would be pretty scary and traumatic. I hope he gets out soon. I

[KapitanSparrow]

I wonder if the man's father told him to do it "for the show" :roflol: I guess we'll find out.

[asdf]

I dont see what the big deal is.
Cant they just cut him in half and reassemble him on the surface?

[Iceaxe]

Crews make some progress in moving man stuck in cave
November 25, 2009

UTAH COUNTY -- Rescuers have been able to move a man stuck in Utah County's Nutty Putty cave about 12 feet, but there's still no estimate when he'll be freed.

He has been stuck there since 9 p.m. Tuesday. Rescue teams have been working ever since to free the man, and concern for the man's condition keeps increasing as time goes on.

Reinforcements are being brought in to aid in the rescue. Teams from West Valley, Murray, West Jordan and South Jordan have arrived on scene to replace some of the rescuers who've been in the cave since the page for help went out Tuesday night.

Utah County sheriff's Sgt. Spencer Cannon said, "Any time you're in a position where you don't have control over when you come and go, it's gonna have an effect on a person, emotionally."

It has turned into a very tedious and precarious rescue for the man. We are told crews are making some progress, but he is still in a very tight spot. He is about 125 feet or so below the surface and somewhere in the neighborhood of 600-700 feet into the cave.

The man who is trapped has been identified as 26-year-old John Jones. He and 10 other people had permission to explore the cave Tuesday evening. Jones, who is about 6 feet tall and weights between 190 and 200 pounds, got stuck around 9 p.m.

Cannon said, "He's stuck head down, and that would tell me he was probably still on his way in. The feature he is stuck in is called Bob's Push. It is 18 inches wide by about eight or 10 inches high."

He added, "To say he is very uncomfortable would be an understatement."

All of the others who were with him have safely made it out of the cave. Rescuers have been able to give him water and say Jones is in good spirits, given the circumstances.

Rescuers are working to get air tools into the constricted area to free some rocks around the man.

Cannon said the cave is not considered ecologically sensitive. "Even if that were the case, if you have to knock down a 10-million-year-old stalactite to get somebody out to save a life, we would do it," he said.

Cannon said about 40 people from numerous agencies are on the scene to assist in the rescue, including confined space rescue experts from Utah, Wasatch and Salt Lake Counties.

The Nutty Putty cave is on state school trust land managed by just as a local club of cave enthusiasts, the Timpanogos Grotto. We are not aware of any rescues since the club took over, but in 2004 crews were involved in a 10 hour rescue for a 16-year-old boy who became stuck inside.

It's unknown how long it will be before Jones is safely rescued, but a medical helicopter is on standby at the scene.

http://www.ksl.com/emedia/slc/1598/159853/15985320.jpg

[Sombeech]

I dont see what the big deal is.
Cant they just cut him in half and reassemble him on the surface?

According to the permit system, this would technically cut him in two, so there'd be one more person that needed to buy a permit.

Unfortunately, it'd be his top half, and the wallet is in the bottom half.

[Iceaxe]

Man still wedged in Utah County cave after 18 hours
By Lindsay Whitehurst
The Salt Lake Tribune
Updated:11/25/2009 02:56:55 PM MST

Search and rescue crews are working to free a man stuck upside down in a crevice of Utah County's Nutty Putty cave since Tuesday night.

John Jones, a 26-year-old from Stansbury Park, is suffering from circulation problems after getting wedged in a narrow part of the cave called "Bob's Push" around 8:45 p.m., said Utah County Sheriff's Sgt. Spencer Cannon.

"He's just plain, flat stuck," Cannon said, but is doing "remarkably well given the circumstances."

Jones, a medical student at the University of Virginia, was with a group of 11 people who shimmied into the narrow entrance to the cave, which is a hole on top of a hill about seven miles west of State Road 68. He got stuck about 700 feet into the cave and is now about 150 feet underground.

"We were just looking forward to a good time," said Mike Jones, the victim's 32-year-old brother. "We were in a pretty happy mood."

The group split into two, with several children and some adults staying behind in the less treacherous "big slide" area while some others went looking for "an adventure" in the more advanced parts of the cave, said 23-year-old Josh Jones, another brother who was with the group.

Jones, who is about six feet tall and 200 pounds, was going head-first into a space 18 inches wide by 8 to 10 inches tall when he realized he was stuck.

"He got to a point where he couldn't back out. He got himself wedged into the vertical crevice upside down," Josh Jones said.

The family tried to free him, but soon realized the situation required more help.

"I was only able to see his two feet that was hanging there in the crevice," Josh Jones said. "I wasn't able to see more because he was engulfed in the crevice itself."

Jones is conscious, and has been throughout the ordeal. The geothermal cave is about 60 degrees, Cannon said. He said about 100 rescuers have been involved, with fresh crews rotating in. They plan to fly him to a hospital after he is freed because of the length of time he's been immobile.

Cannon noted that one of Jones' arms is pinned beneath his body.

"It's like if you're watching T.V. and you have your leg underneath you and it falls asleep," Cannon said. "Usually, you move, but he hasn't been able to move."

Search and rescue crews are using air-powered tools to chip away at the rock to pull him out.

"There's a lot of pushing and pulling," Cannon said. "It's almost literally a millimeter at a time."

Karl Vizmeg, an emergency room doctor at Mountian View Hospital in Payson, said that, hypothetically, he would be most concerned about the loss of blood flow to the arm stuck beneath the trapped man's body.

"If there truly is compromise of the arterial circulation, he could lose a limb," Vizmeg told The Tribune .

But Vizmeg added that losing a limb would be unlikely because there are "several avenues of arterial flow" in the arm.

Another potential complication -- from a combination of being immobilized and having compression to a limb -- is muscle breakdown, causing the elevation of an enzyme that can cause kidney damage.

The enzyme, creatine phosphokinase, is also created during exercise, but in amounts small enough that the kidneys can clear it out, Vizmeg said.

"But when muscles are traumatized, you can have a large load released and the kidneys can't clear it and it causes kidney damage," he said.

The last search and rescues there were in 2004, when two people became trapped in separate incidents within a week of each other. A 16-year-old got stuck in the same place Jones did.

After those incidents, a local caving group, Timpanogos Grotto, took over access to the caves, requiring proper preparations and approval for people seeking to go there.

The approximately 1,500-foot-long cave has several narrow passageways, and is a popular spot for caving enthusiasts, Cannon said.

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site297/2009/1125/20091125__manstuck_1126~P1.jpg
Rescue crews with special equipment and a medical helicopter wait Wednesday near the entrance to the Nutty Putty Cave, where John Jones, 26, of Stansbury Park, has been trapped since Tuesday night. (Al Hartmann / The Salt Lake Tribune)

[Iceaxe]

Utah/BYU smack talk visits the cave....


Tell max he needs to get out because he has a big game against UTAH this saturday.


Wynn would be crying "really I'm trying to get out.. I have a big game." as he thanked god for his situation.


Its not wynn, he's not 26 and still playig college football.


Shouldn't Max Hall be at practice getting ready for a beat-down on Saturday? Dude's head gets stuck everywhere.


:roflol:

[Scott Card]

:lol8: I sometimes read the comments on KSL but it seems when I do I usually get annoyed at how stupid most comments are. These finds of yours are pretty good.

[Iceaxe]

There were over 260 comments last time I checked.... but the part I found interesting is most of the really good (entertaining?!?) comments came from members of Bogley.

:lol8: :lol8: :lol8:

[accadacca]

... but the part I found interesting is most of the really good (entertaining?!?) comments came from members of Bogley.

:lol8: :lol8: :lol8:
Really? Who? :lol8:

[Iceaxe]

Man stuck in cave on verge of freedom
November 25, 2009

UTAH COUNTY -- A man stuck in the notorious Nutty Putty Cave west of Utah Lake is finally on the verge of freedom. Rescue workers have been trying for nearly 20 hours to free him.

They now say crews have made significant progress in getting 26-year-old John Jones of Stansbury Park out of the tight space he was lodged in, head-down. He now is in a more open space, his head has been moved to an upright position. Moving him all the way out of the cave could take another two hours.

He became trapped inside the cave around 9 p.m. Tuesday.

Sgt. Spencer Cannon of the Utah County Sheriff's Office said Jones was stuck in a very tightly confined space, about 18 inches wide and 8-10 inches high. He was in a head-down position, with his head lower than his feet, about 125 feet or so below the surface and somewhere in the neighborhood of 600-700 feet into the cave.

"Getting people to him where they can actually help him, or removing material -- which is one of the efforts they're trying -- and getting access to be able to do that is very difficult," Cannon said.

Rescue teams from all along the Wasatch Front who are specially trained for situations like this are helping, along with some caving experts who have expertise in the Nutty Putty Cave.

Cannon said of Jones, "His spirits are amazingly good given the circumstances. His physical condition-- obviously he's very tired, he's very worn out, and very uncomfortable. But we're hopeful that once we do get him freed that he's going to be in decent shape. But after almost 19 hours now being stuck, I'm sure he's not going to be feeling well."

Jones and 10 other people had permission to explore the cave Tuesday evening. They had been in the cave for about two hours when Jones became stuck in an area known as Bob's Porch. Jones, who is about 6 feet tall and weights between 190 and 200 pounds, got stuck around 9 p.m.

All of the others who were with him safely made it out of the cave. Rescuers have been able to give Jones water and say he is in good spirits, given the circumstances.

Rescuers worked to get air tools into the constricted area to free some rocks around the man.

Jones' father, who is at the rescue site, said his son has some experience in caves. "He's been in caves. I've got pictures of him at the bottom of the Bloomington caves in a tight spot. So it's not the first time he's been in a tight spot. "

Cannon said the cave is not considered ecologically sensitive. "Even if that were the case, if you have to knock down a 10-million-year-old stalactite to get somebody out to save a life, we would do it," he said.

The Nutty Putty cave is on state school trust land managed by just as a local club of cave enthusiasts, the Timpanogos Grotto. We are not aware of any rescues since the club took over, but in 2004 crews were involved in a 10 hour rescue for a 16-year-old boy who became stuck inside.

A medical helicopter is on standby at the scene.

[DiscGo]

Cannon said of Jones, "His spirits are amazingly good given the circumstances. His physical condition-- obviously he's very tired, he's very worn out, and very uncomfortable. But we're hopeful that once we do get him freed that he's going to be in decent shape. But after almost 19 hours now being stuck, I'm sure he's not going to be feeling well."



Amazing! I can tell you this, if I were stuck in that position it would not be said of me that I was in good spirits. They'd be reporting that the emergency crews were having difficulty working because my loud moaning and crying was very distracting.

[asdf]

I dont see what the big deal is.
Cant they just cut him in half and reassemble him on the surface?

According to the permit system, this would technically cut him in two, so there'd be one more person that needed to buy a permit.

Unfortunately, it'd be his top half, and the wallet is in the bottom half.

what if you split him down the middle?

[Iceaxe]

I

[trackrunner]

edit: he took a turn for the worse and I'm removing this post

[Sombeech]

I dont see what the big deal is.
Cant they just cut him in half and reassemble him on the surface?

According to the permit system, this would technically cut him in two, so there'd be one more person that needed to buy a permit.

Unfortunately, it'd be his top half, and the wallet is in the bottom half.

what if you split him down the middle?

Unless the dude has a fanny pack, his wallet is in his right rear pocket. Well, that's the side that real men keep their wallet on.

[Iceaxe]

Cave rescue suffers major setback
November 25, 2009

UTAH COUNTY -- A Stansbury Park man has been trapped inside a cave now for more than 24 hours. He became stuck in a tight spot in the Nutty Putty Cave, west of Utah Lake, and rescuers are inching closer to freeing him, even with a major setback.

Concern is growing for the man, who has hardly moved in a day's time. He is in an amazing predicament with more than 100 rescuers working to save him. That rescue effort suffered a discouraging setback earlier in the evening.

Sgt. Spencer Cannon, with the Utah County Sheriff's Office, said, "They had him to a level spot where he wasn't heading downhill with his head below his feet. During the course of that, they have a raising system to hold him in position, and one of the devices of that system failed, and Mr. Jones actually fell back to the area where he had been stuck for so long."

The rescue teams have been reassessing the situation since then and working to free 26-year-old John Jones who is from Stansbury Park.

Jones became wedged head-down in the cave around 9 p.m. Tuesday.

The spot he is stuck is known as Bob's Push and is described to be 125 feet below and about 700 feet away from the cave's entrance, requiring someone to meander through numerous confined spaces. The actual area in which he is trapped is described as being 18 inches wide and just 8 to 10 inches tall.

"Getting people to him where they can actually help him, or removing material -- which is one of the efforts they're trying -- and getting access to be able to do that is very difficult," Cannon said.

Earlier in the day, crews drilled holes into rocks and used pulleys to move Jones to a position from which they think he can be more easily removed from the cave.

Cannon said of Jones, "His spirits are amazingly good given the circumstances. His physical condition-- obviously he's very tired, he's very worn out, and very uncomfortable. But we're hopeful that once we do get him freed that he's going to be in decent shape. But after almost 19 hours now being stuck, I'm sure he's not going to be feeling well."

Family members are waiting outside the cave and talking by two-way radio to Jones, giving him encouragement. They say they have faith that Jones has the strength to get through this.

His father, Leon Jones, said, "John is an incredible young man. And as an old guy, I look up to John and idolize him. He's a great example to me."

Crews have brought in some pneumatic tools to help grind and chip away the rock to open up more space. It's very tedious and difficult work for search and rescue teams, which now have come from all across the Wasatch Front.

Rescuers are still optimistic about getting Jones out safely. Teams are taking turns inside the cave and say they will continue the rescue around the clock.

Jones and 10 other people had permission to explore the cave Tuesday evening. They had been in the cave for about two hours when Jones became stuck in an area known as Bob's Push. Jones, who is about 6 feet tall and weighs between 190 and 200 pounds, got stuck around 9 p.m.

All of the others who were with him safely made it out of the cave. Rescuers have been able to give Jones water.

Cannon said the cave is not considered ecologically sensitive. "Even if that were the case, if you have to knock down a 10-million-year-old stalactite to get somebody out to save a life, we would do it," he said.

The Nutty Putty cave is on state school trust land managed by just as a local club of cave enthusiasts, the Timpanogos Grotto. We are not aware of any rescues since the club took over, but in 2004 crews were involved in a 10 hour rescue for a 16-year-old boy who became stuck inside.

A medical helicopter is on standby at the scene.

[trackrunner]

Sounds like he fell back to where he got stuck in the first place.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=8800398

[Iceaxe]

FWIW: I figure it's only a matter of time before we experiance a similar rescue in one of the skinny slot canyons.

[DiscGo]

I feel so badly for this guy. I sure hope he is alright.

[James_B_Wads2000]

That poor bastard. I feel like a total tool for bitchin' about how shity my day has been. I am so ashamed. :cry:



James

[tmartenst]

After seeing this on the news last night (after the setback), you could tell it was serious enough to worry about what eventually happened. What a horrible way to go. Truth is, things happen to the best of us. Bogley thoughts are with the family. Good on the rescuers for sticking it out and trying for so long. I'm sure the cave will close.

--

Man trapped in cave dies
November 26th, 2009 @ 2:58am

UTAH COUNTY -- After being trapped in the Nutty Putty Caves for more than 27 hours, John Jones died Thursday morning, shortly after midnight.

Efforts to pull him from the cave were continuing when he passed away. The exact cause of his death is uncertain at this time, though Utah County Sheriff's Sgt. said Jones had had trouble maintaining consciousness and breathing Wednesday night.

Crews will continue extricate his body from the cave, but it is likely to take several more hours.

Wednesday evening, rescue crews suffered a setback after nearly having Jones free.

Cannon said Wednesday, "They had him to a level spot where he wasn't heading downhill with his head below his feet. During the course of that, they have a raising system to hold him in position, and one of the devices of that system failed, and Mr. Jones actually fell back to the area where he had been stuck for so long."

Jones became trapped at about 9 p.m. Tuesday.

[DiscGo]

Darn it! That sucks!

[Last Child]

Wow. How sad for his family. I'm bettin not much thanks going around his family this Thanksgiving holiday.

Condolences to the family.

Hats of to the rescuers!

[DiscGo]

That poor bastard. I feel like a total tool for bitchin' about how shity my day has been. I am so ashamed. :cry:



James

That is EXACTLY how I feel James. My day sucked but this poor man's story only gives me perspective that what I consider to be a "bad day" is really only a tribute to the charmed life that I live. (That is going to be my Facebook status right now)


http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site297/2009/1125/20091125__manstuck_1126~2_GALLERY.jpg
(I think the guy looked like DeathCricket)

[Sombeech]

:eek2: Wow, I can't believe he died. I was caught off guard on that. I was expecting some permanent numbness or something in his arm.

I wonder what it was that killed him, because it sounded like they were able to get food and water to him ok, and that he was breathing. Maybe when he slipped back down, it was much worse.

[BruteForce]

:eek2: Wow, I can't believe he died. I was caught off guard on that. I was expecting some permanent numbness or something in his arm.

I wonder what it was that killed him, because it sounded like they were able to get food and water to him ok, and that he was breathing. Maybe when he slipped back down, it was much worse.

I'm sure he died due to the position of his head being lower than his heart. He probably died because of pressure on the brain.

[JP]

Possibly cardiac or respiratory arrest. Very sad.

[Iceaxe]

Tragic ending: the man trapped in a cave dies
November 26th, 2009 @ 6:47am
By Anne Forester

UTAH COUNTY -- After being trapped in the Nutty Putty Caves for more than 27 hours, John Jones died Thursday morning, shortly after midnight.

Efforts to pull him from the cave were continuing when he passed away. The exact cause of his death is uncertain at this time, though officials say Jones had been experiencing difficulty maintaining consciousness and breathing. They say there are so many factors involved, that they just can't pose what the actual cause was.

Rescuers had been communicating with Jones throughout Wednesday and into the night, but after several hours of not hearing from him, rescuers determined that he had died.

Utah County Sheriff Sgt. Eldon Packer told KSL, "We were able to get somebody close enough to him that they were able to check some vital signs and other things and determine he had passed away."

The area where Jones is trapped is very narrow -- about 10 inches high and 18 inches wide. Sheriff's deputies say they literally cannot get a rescuer in close enough to free Jones. They way Jones is positioned inside the cave is making it hard for crews to pull him straight out.

"It's extremely difficult. The last several hours they've actually been using the pneumatic tools to try and break the rock away and other things so they can enlarge the hole enough that they can get in and actually remove him," Packer said.

Because of the dangerous spot where Jones is lodged, rescuers left for the night to get some rest before returning in the morning to try and retrieve his body.

"The individuals who were there, the terms that were used, is that we've never seen anything this technical, this tough," Packer said. said Jones had had trouble maintaining consciousness and breathing Wednesday night.

Wednesday evening, rescue crews suffered a setback after nearly having Jones free.

Cannon said Wednesday, "They had him to a level spot where he wasn't heading downhill with his head below his feet. During the course of that, they have a raising system to hold him in position, and one of the devices of that system failed, and Mr. Jones actually fell back to the area where he had been stuck for so long."

Jones became trapped at about 9 p.m. Tuesday.

[Iceaxe]

That sucks.... I really thought they would get the guy out.

[asdf]

That sucks.... I really thought they would get the guy out.
No Joke - Total shocker :popcorn:

[DOSS]

This is not the outcome I had expected. I feel bad for his family.

This is a good reminder to all of us who like to go and do the unconventional be it caving, mountaineering, canyoneering etc If you feel for even a moment you are getting outside your ability....stop.....evaluate....and reconsider. we all take risks but we need to make sure that they are manageable risks and chosen well. If we don't have the skills to pull off what we want to do we need to take the time to get them (not saying he didn't).

[Cirrus2000]

No kidding; I was stunned when I got up this morning and read that. What an awful thing for his family to have to deal with on Thanksgiving.

[accadacca]

Terrible news. I am shocked too. Condolences to the family. Not much you can say other then you feel for them.

[trackrunner]

shocked didn't expect it to be that serious until I saw the update last night that it became worse around 10pm. thought I was going to read a rescue story. Was hoping this morning would be a better update.

[Don]

Tragic. Really had high hopes for a happy ending to this.
Even that guy in the news last night, who had been trapped in there 10 years ago, seemed sure that this would end well.
Not that I'm blaming anyone, but I'm interested to know what device it was that failed last night and allowed him to slip back into his predicament after so many hours of struggle by so many rescuers.
Condolences to family and friends.

[trackrunner]

Not that I'm blaming anyone, but I'm interested to know what device it was that failed last night and allowed him to slip back into his predicament after so many hours of struggle by so many rescuers.


edit: reports state it was an anchor failure.

Condolences to family and friends not the best way or time. Know someone that lost a father on father's day in a tradic accident while he was driving to her home for a father's day party. Every year it was reminder of the worse day in her life. I hope that they can find peace eventually.

[Iceaxe]

Man dies after being trapped in cave nearly 28 hours
November 26, 2009

UTAH COUNTY -- There has been a tragic end to a Thanksgiving vacation caving expedition. Medical student John Jones was pronounced dead late last night after being trapped in a Utah County cave more than 27 hours.

"We were able to send one of our cavers in close enough to him," said Sgt. Eldon Packer of the Utah County Sheriff's Office. "They were able to check him and determine he did pass away."

Hundreds of search and rescue workers were in the midst of their second exhausting night, trying frantically to pry John Jones loose from Nutty Putty Cave. Just before midnight they realized he was dead.

"We all were very optimistic and hopeful. But it became increasingly clear last night after he got re-stuck that there weren't very many options left," Jones' brother, Spencer Jones, 30, of San Francisco, told The Associated Press.

The rescuers never saw much more than his feet and ankles. They were agonizingly close, but they just couldn't pull him out. Since Tuesday night, they struggled against the unforgiving topography of Nutty Putty Cave.

"We've never seen anything this technical, this tough, to get in and get this person out," Packer said.

The rescuers had to squeeze through narrow, twisting passageways. Jones' feet were sticking out, his head down, his body completely plugging a narrow tunnel 10 to 14 inches wide.

"Where he is trapped, he is on a bend," Packer said. "So there's no way to really get a hold on him to be able to pull directly straight back."

"It was very agonizing on this particular search," said State Sen. John Valentine, R-Orem, who has been a volunteer search and rescue worker for 30 years. The problem rescuers could not overcome was a small lip of rock at a critical bend in the narrow tunnel.

"The lip basically captured the center part of his body," Valentine said, "so that as you pulled against it, you were pulling like against a fish hook. It would hang up just underneath the rib cage, against the lip that was in the narrow part of the cave."

Rescuers bolted a pulley system into the rock for more leverage. That moved Jones a little ways, until a bolt failed, according to Sgt. Spencer Cannon of the Utah County Sheriff's Office.

"A roof anchor gave way, causing him to fall back down into the area where he had been stuck previously," Cannon said.

It's not known if that setback contributed to Jones' death. The trapped man had trouble breathing for hours. Sometime before midnight his vital signs stopped and rescuers exited the cave.

"We thought he was in the clear and then when we got the news that he had slipped again. That's when we started to get scared," Spencer Jones said.

"We have to be very careful," Cannon said. "It's very dangerous down there, as is evidenced by the fact that we've had, five years ago we had, two within a week almost in the exact same spot."

He had a wife and 8-month-old daughter and was a second-year medical student at the University of Virginia.

Spencer Jones said the family of five boys and two girls was close, and his brother was a wonderful person.

"He would have done anything for you, so that's what makes it even harder. It's senseless," he said.

After those earlier incidents, authorities considered closing the cave. Instead they allowed a caving group to manage it. Now the option of sealing it off is back on the table.

"No one's in a position to hastily do that at this juncture, but we want to discuss that seriously tomorrow," said Kim Christy, assistant director of the Utah School & Institutional Trust Lands Administration, which owns the land where the cave is located.

Meanwhile, officials still aren't sure how to recover the body and return it Jones' loved ones.

"Part of the problem," Cannon said, "is that the only real options we have are those that were employed yesterday that just weren't working."

Meetings are planned for Friday to discuss the future of the cave and the body recovery effort, a grim assignment for many people on this holiday weekend.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=481&sid=8810404

[Iceaxe]

[b]Cops: Rescue equipment didn't fail
Tragedy

[CarpeyBiggs]

it's not fair to speculate on exactly what happened, but the fact an anchor failed only makes this even more tragic. here's a few shots from KSL, one showing the anchor. if this is in fact the anchor, there is obviously not any redundancy on the actual anchor itself.

[CarpeyBiggs]

more here: - http://www.ksl.com/?sid=8810404&nid=460

[trackrunner]

it's not fair to speculate on exactly what happened, but the fact an anchor failed only makes this even more tragic. here's a few shots from KSL, one showing the anchor. if this is in fact the anchor, there is obviously not any redundancy on the actual anchor itself.


When I saw the picture and read the description I wonder if the mechanical advantage force loads caused the failure (just speculation, seams a possible explanation)? I would think at times there were a lot force loads in that system.

A couple months ago I was talking to Bo and he mentioned in Zion SAR they used two anchors: one for the raise/lower and another for the belay (not sure if that

[nonot]

Sad and unfortunate. Carpy, that photo looks as if the bolt is loaded entirely in tension and none in shear. It wouldn't take too much force to pop it right out.

[Bo_Beck]

[quote=trackrunner]
When I saw the picture and read the description I wonder if the mechanical advantage force loads caused the failure (just speculation, seams a possible explanation)? I would think at times there were a lot force loads in that system.

A couple months ago I was talking to Bo and he mentioned in Zion SAR they used two anchors: one for the raise/lower and another for the belay (not sure if that

[forum8fox]

That bolt should have been put in the side wall with out a doubt. not to mention there should probly be 2 of them equalized on the side wall.

I would think considering how crucial that main lift point is that redundancy would mean more then one bolt. Obviously the back up belay doesn't do much when it's crucial that there is no backward movement, they probly should have been using a static line for the belay (I'm just assuming it wasnt since he slid back what seems like a decent amount).

Sad indeed, I had a feeling it might end that way. Because of that I couldn't believe all the crap comments that were posted up in a joking manner during the efforts. I always worry about getting into that perdiciment myself when I'm squeezing my way back into some tight twisting conveluted worm hole deep in the caves here in crawlarado, essentially on our own as help is way too far away. I can think of atleast 2 places I did not go because of this, and I've only been caving for a year.

[trackrunner]

Cops: Cave rescue equipment didn't fail

The equipment used in the attempted rescue did not fail, Cannon said. It was a failure of the rock where the apparatus was anchored, he said. The rope system rescuers used was highly reliable and included redundant parts for extra safety, he said.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13873501

[CarpeyBiggs]

Cops: Cave rescue equipment didn't fail

The equipment used in the attempted rescue did not fail, Cannon said. It was a failure of the rock where the apparatus was anchored, he said. The rope system rescuers used was highly reliable and included redundant parts for extra safety, he said.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13873501

my interpretation is that this means the bolt pulled...

again, speculation in this case is just that. i know some will find this demeaning to the SAR and the victim. i hope it does not come across like that.

[Iceaxe]

my interpretation is that this means the bolt pulled....

x2

I'm been in that section of the cave, its very tight and very little room for SAR to work in. Placing any bolt would be very difficult. Placing a bolt in an ideal location was probably impossible.

[Last Child]

This really sucks.

Officials halt efforts to remove body from cave

November 27th, 2009 @ 2:39pm
By John Hollenhorst

UTAH COUNTY -- Officials announced Friday they had called off any further efforts to remove the body of a man who got trapped in the Nutty Putty Cave. They also said the cave would be permanently closed.

"The decision has been made that there will be no further effort to remove John Jones' body from the Nutty Putty Cave, said Sgt. Spencer Cannon with the Utah County Sheriff's Office during an afternoon press conference.

John Jones died late Wednesday night after being trapped in the caves for more than 27 hours. Rescuers worked furiously to get him out -- but in the end ran out of time.

Cannon said Jones' body was stuck in an unnamed passageway about approximately 100 feet down and 400 feet from the entrance of the cave. They initially said he was stuck in an area known as Bob's Push, which turned out to be incorrect. Cannon said the area was too dangerous and the risk too high for recovery efforts to continue.

"Where he is trapped, he is on a bend, so there's no way to really get a hold on him to be able to pull directly straight back," said Sgt. Eldon Packer with the Utah County Sheriff's Office.

Officials also announced a decision to permanently close all access to the Nutty Putty Cave. They did not say how they planned to seal it off yet.

The announcement came after a meeting early Friday, which included Jones' family. Cannon said the decision was reached with the family's input.

[DiscGo]

Crazy!

I feel much worse for his family not being able to give him a proper burial then I do for the loss of the cave. It really is very tragic.

[CarpeyBiggs]

wow. i'm literally speechless. :eek2:

[Sombeech]

Dang, it just keeps getting worse, even after he's passed away.

[jumar]

jumar beat both of you

Yeah... but he put it down where very few will read it. :haha:

Yeah apparently...

:ne_nau:

[accadacca]

I cant imagine being stuck in there. It must have been awful for this poor guy. I am not sure who had it worse, him or his family. I am semi-claustrophobic and I cant imagine what he was going through. Of course his family and poor wife on the surface and to have him never come out must have been traumatic. My prayers are with the family and rescuers. I just cant imagine what they went through. Horrible.

[jman]

Wow, so now with Nutty Putty being closed, I wonder if they will backhoe the cave with tons of dirt, making it a memorial? That would be the logical thing, next to recovering his body that is.

Wow, that's so sad.

[Scott Card]

Oh man...... this thing has really put a cloud over Thanksgiving. I have been following this since the start like most of you. I am so sad for this family and now not to have a body to bury. It is truly amazing just how perfectly bad this whole thing turned out. So sad.

[tallpaul]

Just out of curiosity where exactly was he stuck? Is Bob's push before or after the birth canal? Is it the squeeze right before you get into that room where the birth canal starts (i.e. the room where you climb throuh the hole in the ceiling to get up into the canal)

[jman]

Just out of curiosity where exactly was he stuck? Is Bob's push before or after the birth canal? Is it the squeeze right before you get into that room where the birth canal starts (i.e. the room where you climb throuh the hole in the ceiling to get up into the canal)

Inital cave rescuers said that John was in Bob's Push, but then later retracted that and said that he was in a "unmapped" area in that same area.

[jumar]

Made national news
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2009/11/27/2009-11-27_stuck_utah_cave_explorer_john_jones_packed_much _adventure_into_26_years_of_life.html

[Iceaxe]

Utah cave to entomb spelunker
Tragedy

[Iceaxe]

I'm really against sealing the cave, I can understand sealing the finger he is trapped in if body recovery is not possible, but sealing the entire cave is a crime to me. To me caves are a natural treasure and should not be destroyed.

So.... If a climber falls from the top of Delicate Arch should we bulldoze the arch so others will not die going somewhere they don't belong? I'm sure that I am perching to the choir when I say the outdoors are dangerous and people are going to die playing in the outdoors, it is to be expected.

:soapbox:

[DiscGo]

I agree with you Shane. I feel like a jerk for having the thought but I hate that other people's recklessness or even just bad fortune results in everyone else losing out.

Again, I feel horrible for this guy and his family but people are going to get hurt no matter what you do. In this case the guy was more likely to die on the drive out there than he was in the cave. Should we outlaw cars? That woman died yesterday on Delicate Arch. Should we destroy every trail or mountain that is dangerous? I could go on with my rant here but in the end, I feel like sealing off the part where his body is located is a much better option than the whole cave.

[Cirrus2000]

"Ditto" - from The Choir.

The quote from Josh Jones: But "we feel it would be John's will to protect the safety of future cavers," he said.

Really? He got to do it, and got over his head, so you assume that he would not want others to be able to enter even the easier parts of the cave?

By all means, close off the area he's in (for the simple fact that there are people morbid enough to go hunt for him - and, of course, he will be decomposing for a while, which is an ugly but inescapable fact) but leave the rest open.

[DiscGo]

It was a memorial for a young man left trapped in a Utah County cave after his death in a spelunking accident, but John Jones' family on Saturday found itself comforting those who had tried to save him.

While recounting his son's commitment to his church and his faith in spiritual redemption after death, father Leon Jones implored search-and-rescue team members not to despair. He asked for a show of hands from the rescuers, and called them "part of our family."

"It was John's time to go. You were not meant to be successful on this one," Leon Jones said. "We love you and we're so thankful for you."


http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13885805?source=rss

[jumar]

So.... If a climber falls from the top of Delicate Arch should we bulldoze the arch so others will not die going somewhere they don't belong? I'm sure that I am perching to the choir when I say the outdoors are dangerous and people are going to die playing in the outdoors, it is to be expected.

Or someone falling off Angel's Landing...

[denaliguide]

get his body out. if it means going in with a jackhammer and 700' of air hose, so be it, chisel away. i'm sorry he died and feel for his family, but i hate to see it be a situation where one guy screws it up for everyone else. closing the cave seems like such a lame and kneejerk reaction.

[errinevans]

This came from a rescuer from the site:



"The press coverage has been very accurate, especially considering that they could not see really any of what was going on. I would like to clear up one thing however. Several news outlets have reported that John was "free" and then the rigging failed, sending him back to where he started. This is incorrect. When the redirect popped, John was still several hours from being "free". I estimate he was probably 2 hours of hauling and squeezing from where he would have been able to sit up. The haul systems ran through a twisting passage, requiring pulleyed redirects at each corner, four in all. As far as I can tell, the last one was set up on a natural anchor. It was very near the patient, one bend beyond where I could fit. I believe it was the anchor itself that blew, not the rope or cord as reported. The rescuer was actually hit in the face with two rescue pulleys and two carabiners.

While this setback was definitely the turning point of the rescue, John probably lost about two feet of progress as a result. Rescuers had already moved him a ways up the passage in the 15 or so hours before this. He was still a long way from being free, even without the blowout. Once the rigging was rebuilt with better anchors, by this time John was too exhausted to help us, rendering the setup useless. We were hauling him into a tight spot, with only his feet visible. He was head-down for 24 hours, with no way to turn him, and the clock beat us."

[jman]

This came from a rescuer from the site:



"The press coverage has been very accurate, especially considering that they could not see really any of what was going on. I would like to clear up one thing however. Several news outlets have reported that John was "free" and then the rigging failed, sending him back to where he started. This is incorrect. When the redirect popped, John was still several hours from being "free". I estimate he was probably 2 hours of hauling and squeezing from where he would have been able to sit up. The haul systems ran through a twisting passage, requiring pulleyed redirects at each corner, four in all. As far as I can tell, the last one was set up on a natural anchor. It was very near the patient, one bend beyond where I could fit. I believe it was the anchor itself that blew, not the rope or cord as reported. The rescuer was actually hit in the face with two rescue pulleys and two carabiners.

While this setback was definitely the turning point of the rescue, John probably lost about two feet of progress as a result. Rescuers had already moved him a ways up the passage in the 15 or so hours before this. He was still a long way from being free, even without the blowout. Once the rigging was rebuilt with better anchors, by this time John was too exhausted to help us, rendering the setup useless. We were hauling him into a tight spot, with only his feet visible. He was head-down for 24 hours, with no way to turn him, and the clock beat us."

wow, thanks for sharing. What's the link referenced to? I searched Nutty Putty, but didn't see it.

I have three buddies working for UC SAR and they said similar things - it just resulted in John was head down for to long and was too tired after they re-rigged the anchors. "then its like trying to pull a cruise-ship with a rope attached to your hair" said of my friends working for SAR.

So pulling him out isn't a option anymore, and I concur with denalguide, just use a jackhammer or some sort of excavaction tool and get him out of there.

[caverdan]

..

[DOSS]

Mining techniques would have to be used which would highly modify the cave and be rather expensive and time consuming. Not that I'm for leaving him in there, but I highly respect the decision and wishes of the family. IMHO...their chioce should be honered.

I respectfully disagree.. why is it the choice of 1 family and the sheriffs office to close a cave (something that is not their personal property)...

also if I understand you correctly a permanently closed cave is better than a partially damaged cave that is still open to the community is :ne_nau: I have to totally disagree with this.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Mining techniques would have to be used which would highly modify the cave and be rather expensive and time consuming. Not that I'm for leaving him in there, but I highly respect the decision and wishes of the family. IMHO...their chioce should be honered.

I respectfully disagree.. why is it the choice of 1 family and the sheriffs office to close a cave (something that is not their personal property)...

also if I understand you correctly a permanently closed cave is better than a partially damaged cave that is still open to the community is :ne_nau: I have to totally disagree with this.

i think he is referring to the families wish to keep him in the cave. it is not their choice on whether it gets shut down. nor is it the choice of the utah county sheriff. the decision lies with SITLA, who owns the land, and they have been looking for reasons to shut it down for some time. it all has to do with liability issues.

[DOSS]

Mining techniques would have to be used which would highly modify the cave and be rather expensive and time consuming. Not that I'm for leaving him in there, but I highly respect the decision and wishes of the family. IMHO...their chioce should be honered.

I respectfully disagree.. why is it the choice of 1 family and the sheriffs office to close a cave (something that is not their personal property)...

also if I understand you correctly a permanently closed cave is better than a partially damaged cave that is still open to the community is :ne_nau: I have to totally disagree with this.

i think he is referring to the families wish to keep him in the cave. it is not their choice on whether it gets shut down. nor is it the choice of the utah county sheriff. the decision lies with SITLA, who owns the land, and they have been looking for reasons to shut it down for some time. it all has to do with liability issues.

I can see that and know SITLA has been looking for reasons.. I don't think it should even be a choice for the family to say leave him down there. Just my opinion though.

[Redpb]

Such a tragic event. I would have collapsed mentally long before my body gave out.
Warm, humid, and dark environment. Everything needed to speed up the decomposition (as grotesque as that sounds). Shut it down for a year, if that long is even needed, recover the bones and let the family have a proper burial.

[jman]

I think people are getting the closed idea of Nutty Putty a little twisted. It isn't because someone died in there, compared to Angel's Landing, its because they can't recover his body. Heck, if for 20+ hours they were rescuing him and was only moved a little over 8feet, and then he slid back in 2 more feet when the anchor failed, that's saying its pretty difficult in removing the body.

I do agree that closing the cave is NOT the best option - but when they can't remove the body, then it changes the game.

Example: Crandall Mine. I was just thinking about them when I heard about John dying in the cave and wondered, did they reopen the mine? No. Unfortunately, the great expense of digging them out was too much for the workers, etc. Thus, making it a tomb, or memorial. Same is with this cave.

Although, I do believe that everyone should have a proper burial and that no-expense should be disgarded in retrieving them, except in extreme circumstances. IE Mount Everest and other such extreme mountains. I've heard rumors that Mt. Everest has 200+ bodies on the mountain, and Mt. Rainier as over 150+ bodies. etc. If it's going to be too taxing and the rescuers lifes are endanger, than I'm sorry, there's not a whole lot you can do then, unless you do it yourself I suppose.

I'm not sure if the rescuer's lifes are in endanger in this cave but...all I know from my friends with UC SAR is that it's almost a oneway ticket where he is at and the situation he got himself into. They needed John to assist them (which he did, until the anchor gave way, and they assume after the anchor blew - he physically and mentally gave up (which is when the anchor blew out they hudled together and came up with a new plan and when they got back to John they didn't get any response out of him and assumed he was dead until they could get someone to confirm he was)), otherwise it is nearly impossible to move him without mining tools. That's what they tell me.

[Iceaxe]

The major problem is you have fat old men with bad comb overs, who think a trip to Disneyland is a wild weekend, that are sitting in a comfy office making decisions that effect our outdoor recreation....

Just wait a few weeks and you can recover the body.... not to be morbid or anything but.... the body will bloat and then it will shrink.. and when I say shrink I mean it will shrink a large amount. At that time it should be rather easy to drag out.

Crandall Mine was a different matter.... the safety of the rescue crew was the problem. That should not be a major issue inside Nutty Putty.

And this is also not about getting sued

[Deathcricket]

Just wait a few weeks and you can recover the body.... not to be morbid or anything but.... the body will bloat and then it will shrink.. and when I say shrink I mean it will shrink a large amount. At that time it should be rather easy to drag out.

See I was thinking once the body shrinks it would be soft and fall into pieces. Although I guess multiple pieces would be easier to retrieve anyways. Without seeing it, really hard to understand... But it seems to me that once the guy was dead and breaking bones (and being gentle) was no longer paramount. Hooking a rope to both legs, pulling with excessive force, and maybe a couple 2x4's for leverage would get anything out? I recall them saying there was a corner where his rib bones were getting lodged.

Regardless, really bad decision to close the cave and spoil it for others. I never got a chance to check that one out! I wonder how many people went into that cave and back out without injury. But I bet it was thousands over the years.

[Ryebrye]

So... what's the holdup to just sealing off the one area he is in and putting a small note like "here lies a guy who almost f**cked it all up for the rest of you?"

I'm going to go up to timp cave and commit hari kari with a stelagtite and leave a note asking that it be my final resting place. Think they would honor that?

I never had any desire to do the nutty putty caves, and likely never will. Still, the thought of one jackass ruining it for everyone really pisses me off.

[mrabe1979]

If you get a chance send a short message of your thoughts and you name to.

savenuttyputtycave@gmail.com

[Iceaxe]

Message sent... here is mine if others need some ideas to get them started.


I'm strongly against sealing the cave, I can understand sealing the finger John Jones is trapped in if body recovery is not possible, but sealing the entire cave is a crime. Caves are a natural treasure and should not be destroyed.

Sealing Nutty Putty Cave makes about as much sense as filling in the Grand Canyon because rafters keep drowning. The outdoors are a dangerous and untamed place, that is a part of the appeal.

Please do not seal or destroy Nutty Putty Cave.

Shane Burrows
Climb Utah - Canyoneering & Mountaineering
http://Climb-Utah.com


:cool2:

[Ryebrye]

When you send the email, it autoreplies to you with this message encouraging you to place a phone call.



I've been told that PHONE CALLS are the most important way to get
through. I hate calling too, but I did it today, and I'll do again
tomorrow, and the next day, until the cave is not sealed.

Utah Trust Lands
Main Office
675 East 500 South, Suite 500
Salt Lake City, UT 84102
801-538-5100
801-355-0922 fax Fifth Floor
801-328-9452 fax Development


One of the best quotes I read about this topic was someone asking "When a person drowns in a lake and they can't recover the body, should they close down the lake permanently?"

[Iceaxe]

I deal with land managers occationally and letters (not emails) are usally the best. The reason is this provides a hardcopy for all to see.

My letter will go out in today's mail.

thanks for providing the info.

[Don]

I'm not really a caver. I've been in Nutty Putty and did not really enjoy myself but I agree that it should not be cemented shut due to this one, tragic, incident. I copied and edited Shane's letter to suit me and I'll even make a phone call or two.

My letter:

I am writing to inform you that I am strongly against sealing the
Nutty Putty cave, I can understand sealing the finger John Jones is
trapped in if body recovery is not possible. I would even be willing
to make a modest financial contribution or vollunteer my time toward
this end. Caves are a natural treasure and should be protected rather
than destroyed.

Sealing the entire cave makes about as much sense as closing Lake
Powell when a boater is killed or closing Mount Everest when a
mountaineer is killed. The outdoors are a dangerous and untamed place,
that is a part of the appeal.

In the end, we all share the same fate; you cannot protect anyone well
enough to prevent death. Although with enough preventative measures in
place you may be able to prevent people from living life.

Please do not seal or destroy Nutty Putty Cave.

[Scott P]

Still, the thought of one jackass ruining it for everyone really pisses me off.

So now the guy that got stuck is a jackass? :ne_nau:

[mrabe1979]

Well.. Jackass is way to harsh and out of line. But you have to wonder what a man with a 14 month old child and a pregnant wife is doing putting himself in that type of situation. :ne_nau:

[Sombeech]

The thought of any danger in this cave has never occurred to many who have wanted to go there.

It's the most popular cave in the state, Boy Scouts are hitting it all the time. I've wanted to do this cave, and had absolutely no knowledge of any danger. I'm sure he had the same frame of mind.

[DiscGo]

I have nothing against this guy and I have spent a lot of time thinking about him recently. I wish very badly that he wouldn't have died. It is my understanding however that it was more his own bad judgment that led to his death.

He got stuck and couldn't go left, right, or back but could go forward. So he kept wedging himself farther in because it gave him more hope of being saved. Truth be told if I were in the save situation I would do the same thing. It makes sense that you think you are making progress, so you keep going (not believing you may die if you choose incorrectly) but in the end if he had just waited for help when he first got stuck, he most likely would have lived.

Whether or not it was bad judgment, or just a bad luck of the draw the cave is not innately dangerous. I have been to the Nutty Putty cave a ton growing up and aside from running out of gas out there one time, I have never had any problems. I am starting to sound like a broken record here, but I no more believe that the cave should be sealed over this death, than I believe mountains should be destroyed or dismantled over the death of a hiker.

The cave is a treasure and means a lot to a lot of people. Some people don't get the attraction to the Nutty Putty but growing up here, that was my "cave". Growing up in Provo I did a lot of the same stuff over and over. When I wanted to go for a hike, I'd hike the Y (I have hiked the Y over a hundred times), if I wanted to go to a hot spring, I 'd go to Fifth Water Hotsprings \ the "Hot Pots" and when I wanted to go to a cave I'd go to Nutty Putty cave. I'm really sad that I won't get to share the cave with my boy because it is something that has meant a lot to me growing up and I love the idea of my kids playing where I played (it is part of the reason I want to raise my family in Utah).

[denaliguide]

But you have to wonder what a man with a 14 month old child and a pregnant wife is doing putting himself in that type of situation. :ne_nau:

what? to think you can't have some type of recreationial risk in your life after you have gotten married and have kids is absolute bullsh*t.

show of hands here. who is married with kids, and hesitate to go canyoneering, caving, rock or ice climbing, backcountry skiing, expedition mountaineering, etc., because they are worried about dying doing that activity.

what aboiut about the parents who leave the kiddies at gram's and fly off on vacation. if the plane goes down, killing both parents, the kids are left orphaned. were they irresponsible for flying on the same plane?

odds are probably higher that you would die in your car on the drive to your adventure.

[mrabe1979]

But you have to wonder what a man with a 14 month old child and a pregnant wife is doing putting himself in that type of situation. :ne_nau:

what? to think you can't have some type of recreationial risk in your life after you have gotten married and have kids is absolute bullsh*t.

show of hands here. who is married with kids, and hesitate to go canyoneering, caving, rock or ice climbing, backcountry skiing, expedition mountaineering, etc., because they are worried about dying doing that activity.

what aboiut about the parents who leave the kiddies at gram's and fly off on vacation. if the plane goes down, killing both parents, the kids are left orphaned. were they irresponsible for flying on the same plane?

odds are probably higher that you would die in your car on the drive to your adventure.

Yep you are right. my bad I will quiet down.. I see your point but I would not be in a ridiculously tight portion of a unmapped portion of this cave in his current family situation. Have you been through the tight portions of this cave? It tells you when to stop! It is no cake walk.

[denaliguide]

[. Have you been through the tight portions of this cave? It tells you when to stop! It is no cake walk.

nope, i have never been in this cave. i have however been through many tight squeezes in other caves. ones where you could only inch forward after you have fully exhaled, then take a couple of breaths without panicking, before inching forward again. this was a long time ago and about i was 40 pounds lighter. today i would probably be stuck well before it got "tight". hell i can't even consider some skinny slots cause my gut gets in the way.

yet i don't shy away from exposure in other activities i pursue, just because i worry about my family. i often do trips with 4th and easy 5th class exposure, usually solo, sometimes without filing a trip plan, signing the trailhead register, or even telling people where i am going (i may tell someone i am going to be on cedar mesa or some other geographic area). usually because i don't even know what trail i will be doing the next day until i get out there.

oh, and i don't have a spot either.

i am so bad. :twisted:

[Reedus]

But you have to wonder what a man with a 14 month old child and a pregnant wife is doing putting himself in that type of situation. :ne_nau:

what? to think you can't have some type of recreationial risk in your life after you have gotten married and have kids is absolute bullsh*t.

show of hands here. who is married with kids, and hesitate to go canyoneering, caving, rock or ice climbing, backcountry skiing, expedition mountaineering, etc., because they are worried about dying doing that activity.

what aboiut about the parents who leave the kiddies at gram's and fly off on vacation. if the plane goes down, killing both parents, the kids are left orphaned. were they irresponsible for flying on the same plane?

odds are probably higher that you would die in your car on the drive to your adventure.

I'll be the first to raise my hand. Maybe I am just a big wuss or a sucker for my two little kids, but I don't take half the risks now that I am married with two kids as I did when I I was single. I remember stunts I would pull on my bullet bike like wheelies at freeway speeds and such. Makes me shudder now to think how close i lived to the edge. Everytime i hit canyons now, I am constantly second guessing myself on stuff i normally wouldn't have thought twice about. Point being for me, is my family is everything. Without family, you have nothing. So taking risks that puts your life in jeapordy is just not worth it. Quite honestly, I cried when I heard that he didn't make it out. Not really because he lost his life (that being tragic in and of itself), but because his poor wife is left alone with a 14 month old daughter and one on the way. I weep for her, and I weep everytime I think about his daughter asking mommy when Daddy is coming home. The pain I imagine is unreal, but I guess that is life. I just choose to live mine so the odds are in my favor and i can enjoy it with my loved ones for as long as i can

[Iceaxe]

I really have just one question I'd like to ask the guy.... "At what point did you realize that crawling down this tiny finger with no chance of escape was a bad idea?"

Not to pick on the dead, but you have to work extremely hard to get stuck as bad as he was. I'd think that at least a dozen times while crawling down the tiny finger the thought of how are you going to get turned around and escape would come into play.

:cool2:

[Don]

I really have just one question I'd like to ask the guy.... "At what point did you realize that crawling down this tiny finger with no chance of escape was a bad idea?"

Not to pick on the dead, but you have to work extremely hard to get stuck as bad as he was. I'd think that at least a dozen times while crawling down the tiny finger the thought of how are you going to get turned around and escape would come into play.

:cool2:

I get a little panicy sitting in my cubicle and just imagining this senario.

[Reedus]

I would venture that this guy was fairly experienced in spelunking and had the same attitude that 90% of people going into Nutty Putty have: Not really difficult and if i get myself in trouble, someone can help out. Why the hell he got in THAT far without turning back due to concern over his own safety is just speculation

[Brewhaha]

I get a little panicy sitting in my cubicle and just imagining this senario.

x2

[CarpeyBiggs]

This is from the NSS forum - link here (http://www.forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9399&sid=f9e8ab0d4f488e257ae08438f4e00577&start=60)

Fellow Cavers:

I wish to share some of my private viewpoints. My statements do not
reflect those of the grottos, the rescue agencies, or the rest of the
cave management team. Instead, they are my own and as such I will share
some insights. I am just going to type and not edit. Let me free flow a
bit and let's see what comes out through my fingertips into the
keyboard...

GUILT - As the Cave Access Manager, I still feel a guilt for pushing the
cave opening forth and for the events to have happened. I watched the
grief on the faces of our friends as they came up out of the cave
exhausted and depleted knowing they gave it their all. Many of them were
in earshot of the excruciating death that took so long to come to
fruition. I can imagine no other more ignominious way to pass from this
life through the veil.

FREE AGENCY - I know that John had his free agency and his decisions to
explore uncharted portions of the cave brought about his death. I mourn
with his family at the loss of his passing, but I know the cave is not
responsible for his death. Nothing in the cave fell and crushed him. The
cave was not unstable and it is not the public risk that it is being
portrayed.

CRAWLING DELIGHT - As far as horizontal caves go, the Nutty Putty Cave
is a crawling delight. You can explore to whatever levels you desire. It
is a beginner to intermediate cave, with some very expert and tiny
passages. These passages are obviously small at the start and nobody is
forced to enter them.

FIRST TIME GROUP - The Jones family group was a first time to the cave
group. Although their list of experience visiting other caves was
shared, this made the group qualified to enter the cave from a
management perspective. As part of our management plan we do not require
our Trip Leaders to have visited the cave before. Should we have? I
don't feel that we should have because this is a learning ground for
caving. Instead, we expect our Trip Leaders to be the very best.

ERRORS - This group was diverse in ages from 12 to 30 and all family. At
some point the decision was made to split the group and 26 year old John
and his 23 year old Trip Leader brother decided to explore the passage
that is not on the newer surveyed map. The access is tiny and there is
no indication that it leads to anywhere. Due to the long closure and
litle traffic through the cave in the past few years it is now very easy
to see well traveled passages. Dust/dirt covers everything that has not
received visitors. Traveled passages are indicated by polished black
stone. It is like night and day between traveled areas of the cave and
untraveled areas of the cave. We will never know why the decision was
made to force themselves into the really small untraveled passage other
than the sense of adventure.

MY AMAZEMENT - Since they had never visited the cave before I cannot
figure why they went off map. They had not been in the cave long enough
to visit all the wonderful parts of the Birth Canal and even Chris's
Crawl. I could understand if they had been to the cave so many times
that they were bored with the mapped portions of the cave, but it takes
a few trips even with the experienced guides to explore all of the
wonderful mapped passages in the cave. Why go off map? All of this was
new to the group and there was no reason to go off map.

WARNINGS - I have had to field dozens of questions as to adequate
warnings, and is the cave safe, and so on and so on. The public wants to
know the answers. Take a look at the website and download the waiver
from the site. We plead with cavers not to have and accident or death
because it will ruin it for everybody. This is a wild cave, but it is a
stable cave. The great thing about experience in caving is that it
teaches you what is safe for you. At 6'6" 200 pounds, there are
many areas of the cave that I was never ever going to experience. But at
the same stature I have seen many portions of the cave that people my
size will never experience. I can access some pretty tight places that
others cannot. What is safe for me might not be safe for you. Welcome to
caving.

IS THE CAVE BEING SINGLED OUT - The Nutty Putty Cave is being singled
out by the governing powers including government agencies, search and
rescue agencies, and people who don't like caving. That is the
reality and we all have to get over it. The normal governing agencies
are scared to death of cave rescues. Why? Because they feel so helpless.
They have all of this wonderful rescue ability, equipment, and training,
yet very little of it works below ground. Most of the equipment is too
big. Most of the normal rescue parties are too big. It is very helpless
feeling standing above ground looking at over 100 other rescue personnel
knowing that only two individuals can get anywhere near the trapped
caver at a time. All the other man power can do very little.

5 RECUES 1 DEATH - This is the ratio being shared with the
Sherriff's Department. "We have been called out to the cave 5
times in the last 10 years and this resulted in 1 death. This is an
unacceptable ratio unlike any other rescue category. For this reason
alone the cave must be closed." I loosely quoted their sentiment,
but that is how they feel about it. I, on the other hand say "5,000
cavers a year for a decade (loose approximation) with 5 rescue attempts
and 1 death. 49,994 successful trips with 5 live cavers rescued and 1
death resulting in less than an average of 1 rescue attempt every 2
years. That is a very reasonable success rate." It would be
different if the cave had done something to take the life of this caver,
but there was no instability or collapse. The death is a result of
several unacceptable decisions on the part of the group.

DOMINO AFFECT - The fear from my perspective is that the closure of
Nutty Putty will be used to bolster support for closing other caves
around the country. This sentiment has been shared with me by other cave
managers as well. Would the same decision have been reached if the body
had been recovered? Probably it still would have been closed, but not in
a permanent fashion. Why? Because we would not have to be dealing with
the opinions and feelings of the family of the deceased.

TOMB - Because the body of John Jones was left in the cave it created a
very interesting situation that has not often been encountered. The
family was left in a powerful position and the land owners agreed to
their request to permanently seal the cave and prevent further
recreational caving in the Nutty Putty Cave. If his body would have been
recovered, then we don't have a burial issue to deal with. Instead,
we have a memorial issue where we deal with the specific location and
appropriate dealing of sealing off the passage where the death occurred.

Please deal with this information for now... My 11 year old son would
like me to break away from the multi-day ordeal long enough to spend
some family time. I promise to write more and would ask that you leave a
lot of the conjecture alone. This is still a painful experience and I
look forward to hearing from other rescuers and sharing more of my own
perspective in a safe environment. I respect you all well enough to feel
like this is a safe environment.

Michael Leavitt
Nutty Putty Cave Access Manager

[Scott Card]

I just heard the cries to keep the cave open on KSL. Let's hope they are heard.

[Don]

Good read. Lots of things I was not aware of. Thanks for posting CB.

[robjenson]

Here is a post from someone in the group and how it happened:

http://emjoe.blogspot.com/2009/11/john-jones.html

I was part of 11 people who went to the Nutty Putty Cave on November 24th, 2009, just two days ago. I was invited by a great friend and old roommate, Josh Jones, to come along with he and a few family members. I have gone on several caving expeditions with Josh and thought it would be an enjoyable new cave to visit.

When we entered the cave Josh, John, Jessica (friend of Josh), and I went first, while two other adults and four teenagers followed behind. The cave is a geothermal hotspot and so it is very warm and moist in there. Because of this it was a little more difficult to breath, but also nice because it was around 30 degree Fahrenheit above ground.

The rest is hard to explain unless I can use my hands, but for simplicities sake: We had a map of the cave and got to a part where we couldn't find where it continued, so we each took a route that looked like it could be the right way. It is this part of the story that I keep recalling over and over in my head, because at this point I asked John if he wanted to explore the spot, which we later would learn is called the "Ed's Push" area. He went in to the spot face first because he was climbing up, but then it curved and started heading downwards, then it got too small for him to push himself backwards up against gravity, so he slid down further and became wedged. We didn't know he was stuck for several minutes. Jessica and I waited for Josh to get out of the hole he was exploring. When he did we told him (without much thought) to go in and see if John needed help, meanwhile Jessica and I explored two other spots where the cave could have continued. The rest of the group joined us at this point. We could not find where it continued, so sat waiting near the area. After about 15 minutes I hollered to Josh if things were okay. He came out in a mix of calm and panic and said he was going to go up and call for help and asked that I go in a comfort John and maybe try to help, because I was the only adult that would fit. So I crawled in above John (it was a very tight spot and I often would panic because it was difficult to move) and John and I tried several things to move him up. I did the best I could to keep him in good spirits by giving him little goals to reach. Mike, John's brother, was outside of the tight spot talking to me, which I much appreciated because it helped keep my spirits up. But after an hour I was becoming tired and scraped up and started to get psychologically messed up. I crawled out and Josh crawled in to see what he could do.
I crawled out of the cave and joined everyone else outside of the cave. They had all been gathered around the entrance praying and singing church hymns. The search and rescue vehicles started to show up and we decided we needed to get the teenagers home. And we felt there was nothing we could do but get in the way, so a group of us left, leaving Josh and Mike and another brother-in-law with John.

[trackrunner]

Michael Leavitt
Nutty Putty Cave Access Manager

Mr Leavitt is also a member of Bogley. Hope he comes post something here. But rightfully he has other things on his mind right now and I respect that.

[accadacca]

I just heard the cries to keep the cave open on KSL. Let's hope they are heard.
Yep: http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=8885669

[Iceaxe]

KSL.COM
Cavers fighting to keep Nutty Putty open
December 2, 2009

UTAH COUNTY -- A growing number of cavers are trying to find ways to persuade officials to keep the Nutty Putty caves open.

Benjamin Allen has been in the Nutty Putty caves dozens of times and says he used to take therapy groups there to teach people how to overcome fears and gain confidence.

"I think it's done so much good for so many people, because as they go in there it's just like conquering a climbing wall or something. You feel confident. You've done something that you were afraid to do. Shutting the caves would be a great loss to all of us," Allen says.

He's proposing only the lower sections of the caves be sealed off, and he's even willing to pay to have it done himself.

"I would pay for it and take people in there, and we could close off the bottom section," Allen says. "The rest of the cave could still remain open.

Michael Douglas takes nature groups through Nutty Putty and says he's been in the caves at least 45 times in the past 10 years with kids as young as 5 years old.

"We're in mourning. We are very disappointed to see this shut down," Douglas says. "There are other caving opportunities in the area, but Nutty Putty is a very unique feature and we hope that if there is the opportunity to keep it open that somebody might here us and might open that discussion as quickly as possible.

The email address savenuttyputtycave@gmail.com has been set up by a group hoping to keep the caves open, and they're directing their efforts toward the State Trust Lands Management which owns the property.

Sgt. Spencer Cannon with the Utah County Sheriff's office says his office is receiving phone calls from people upset by the caves' closure. However, he says the decision made by the groups overseeing the caves -- including the sheriff's office and the State Trust Lands -- will be enforced and the caves sealed off.

"We understand that people like to go there, and we don't take likely a decision to shut off an attraction that has been popular to so many people," Cannon says. "But the determination was made that the risk was just too high to leave it open."

Cannon says during the process, agencies did discuss closing only the portion of the cave where John Jones died but decided there were many different sections of the cave that also were dangerous.

The idea was also brought up to close the cave for 10 or more years and then go in and recover the remains and open the rest of the cave back up. Cannon says that was decided against as well in part because the body is stuck in a steep area that is difficult to get to and the remains might fall deeper where they can never be recovered.

[nonot]

"But the determination was made that the risk was just too high to leave it open."

What a bunch of BS, if you closed every road that had 1 person killed on it in the past 20 years we'd all be walking everywhere.

[BruteForce]

I heard on the news this morning that they are going to seal it in a fashion that makes it possible to re-open.

A gate or something near where John's remains are and sealing the entrance so it could be reopened in the future.

Channel 2 Story Here (http://connect2utah.com/content/news/story/?cid=65381)

[trackrunner]

I heard on the news this morning that they are going to seal it in a fashion that makes it possible to re-open.

A gate or something near where John's remains are and sealing the entrance so it could be reopened in the future.

Channel 2 Story Here (http://connect2utah.com/content/news/story/?cid=65381)

This line stood out to me.


UTAH COUNTY - Officials in Utah County have formulated a plan, with the reluctant approval of the family of the man who died while stuck in the infamous Nutty Putty Cave, to seal up the cave permanently.

[Don]

Utah County officials begin sealing Nutty Putty Cave
December 3rd, 2009 @ 6:59am


PROVO, Utah (AP) -- The Utah County Sheriff's Office has begun to seal off the deadly Nutty Putty Cave.

Officials decided to permanently close the cavern after 26-year-old John Jones died last week after he became stuck in a narrow crevice.

Sheriff Jim Tracy says the popular spelunking site south of Salt Lake City will be completely sealed by the end of the week.

He says the cave will have two seals, one where Jones's body now lies, and one at the entrance of the cave.

Tracy says there has been significant backlash against closing the cave. He says it is not a decision that will make everyone happy, but it serves all parties the best.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=8892976

[Iceaxe]

"But the determination was made that the risk was just too high to leave it open."

So I assume closing Highway 6 is next?

[R]

I'll be the first to raise my hand. Maybe I am just a big wuss or a sucker for my two little kids, but I don't take half the risks now that I am married with two kids as I did when I I was single. I remember stunts I would pull on my bullet bike like wheelies at freeway speeds and such. Makes me shudder now to think how close i lived to the edge. Everytime i hit canyons now, I am constantly second guessing myself on stuff i normally wouldn't have thought twice about. Point being for me, is my family is everything. Without family, you have nothing. So taking risks that puts your life in jeapordy is just not worth it. Quite honestly, I cried when I heard that he didn't make it out. Not really because he lost his life (that being tragic in and of itself), but because his poor wife is left alone with a 14 month old daughter and one on the way. I weep for her, and I weep everytime I think about his daughter asking mommy when Daddy is coming home. The pain I imagine is unreal, but I guess that is life. I just choose to live mine so the odds are in my favor and i can enjoy it with my loved ones for as long as i can

I feel that way, too. I respect the wishes and needs of my family, and if I think something is a little too risky, I back off. I had been toying with the idea of getting into technical canyoneering, but the idea makes my wife too nervous. She doesn't need that kind of stress, and I respect that - she does so much for me, so I will do that for her. There are all kinds of lower-risk adventures, some of which she and I can share, that are still incredibly satisfying.

[Scott Card]

Well, it is happening despite what anyone wants....

From KSL:
PROVO, Utah (AP) -- The Utah County sheriff's office has begun to seal off the deadly Nutty Putty Cave.

Officials decided to permanently close the cavern after 26-year-old John Jones died last week after he became stuck in a narrow crevice.

Sheriff Jim Tracy says the popular spelunking site south of Salt Lake City will be completely sealed by the end of the week.

He says the cave will have two seals, one where Jones' body now lies, and one at the entrance of the cave.

Tracy says there has been significant backlash against closing the cave. He says it is not a decision that will make everyone happy, but it serves all parties the best.

[mrabe1979]

It is interesting that they are sealing the finger John Jones is in as well as the entrance. Maybe the entrance will be reopened some day.

[Scott Card]

Any one know if there is any legal effort to stop the county from sealing off the cave? I may be interested. This kind of thing really ticks me off. (AKA Zion Permit system)

[Iceaxe]

Any one know if there is any legal effort to stop the county from sealing off the cave? I may be interested. This kind of thing really ticks me off. (AKA Zion Permit system)

Scott, I PM'ed you some contact information that I have.

Good Luck, I'd hate to loss that cave.

[accadacca]

Any one know if there is any legal effort to stop the county from sealing off the cave? I may be interested. This kind of thing really ticks me off. (AKA Zion Permit system)

Scott, I PM'ed you some contact information that I have.

Good Luck, I'd hate to loss that cave.
:headbang: :popcorn:

[Don]

Any one know if there is any legal effort to stop the county from sealing off the cave? I may be interested. This kind of thing really ticks me off. (AKA Zion Permit system)

Not a lot of money sitting around but I'd be happy to volunteer time, write another letter or make more phone calls if it might help.

I don't even like caves; they're scary, but closing this is bullshit.

[BruteForce]

I'll probably head out there on Saturday to see how the entrance is being sealed. My boy (age 11) and I have always had a goal to explore the areas I could fit in (I'm 6'1 and 220 pounds).

[Scott P]

Any one know if there is any legal effort to stop the county from sealing off the cave?

Since it is on private land, it doesn't seem like there would be any way to stop it legally.

[hank moon]

this just in: death penalty supporters take different stance with cave on gallows... :haha:

[Iceaxe]

Since it is on private land, it doesn't seem like there would be any way to stop it legally.

There is always a way.... if nothing else.... since its private land that means it has a price.

Might be able to get it cheap right now. I bet SITLA would love nothing better than to climb out from under this mess right now.

:cool2:

[Iceaxe]

I just recieved this.....

Friends of Nutty Putty Cave

First and foremost, I'd like to thank everybody who has taken the time to call the Sheriff, Trust Lands, and their Legislative Representatives. Without these actions we never would have been able to convince the Sheriff to put in a "removable" plug in the cave, or generated the News stories that we have been constantly following. It was your actions that allowed everybody to know exactly how the public felt and how big an atrocity was being committed by these "officials" by rushing this action instead of at least allowing for Public hearings that are standard on natural formations such as this Cave. The Nutty Putty stories are far from over. KSL is doing some pod casts from supporter's houses tonight, we have word that a demonstration is taking place at the Cave itself, and KSL is still doing Radio interviews that will continue to be aired in the following days. The primary message behind these stories is over the concern of citizens like us who feel this decision was made in hast and was a travesty because no public input was even allowed. We understand many of you are not cavers, but lover's of freedom and independance. Please stick with us so we can continue this pressure.

To clear a few things up, I

[hank moon]

This cave is clearly a killer hole. It should pay for its misdeeds and be permanently plugged for the greater good.

[Sombeech]

This cave is clearly a killer hole. It should pay for its misdeeds and be permanently plugged for the greater good.

We should bolt more canyons to prevent more injury on rappels.

[DOSS]

This cave is clearly a killer hole. It should pay for its misdeeds and be permanently plugged for the greater good.

We should bolt more canyons to prevent more injury on rappels.

Sorry but you have it wrong on the Canyons... some C4 to collapse them and posted guards 24/7 so people can't even go on the rubble

[Sombeech]

This cave is clearly a killer hole. It should pay for its misdeeds and be permanently plugged for the greater good.

We should bolt more canyons to prevent more injury on rappels.

Sorry but you have it wrong on the Canyons... some C4 to collapse them and posted guards 24/7 so people can't even go on the rubble

That would make some sweet caves. :lol8:

[BruteForce]

Stopped by Nutty Putty today to see how it was sealed off. Hard to determine with the amount of snow:

http://www.xmission.com/~jamesk/tintic/nuttyputty.JPG
http://www.xmission.com/~jamesk/tintic/nuttyputty2.JPG

[DiscGo]

I love that you went out there to check it out. Surprisingly nice TR!

[Don]

Back in the news today. Hard to read some of this.

Part 1: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50073473-76/john-cave-tunnel-josh.html.csp

Part 2: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50073474-78/john-cave-ryan-rescuers.html.csp

[Iceaxe]

I saw this in Saturday and Sunday's paper..... great read. :2thumbs:

[Scott Card]

Thanks Don for the links. You are right, tough to read some of it but well worth it too.

[blueeyes]

Not a lot to say after you read that. A little better understanding why they permanently closed the cave.

[Felicia]

Saw the movie this evening. http://www.lastdescent.com/video