Chrome OS

[Sombeech]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QRO3gKj3qw&feature=player_embedded


http://gdgt.com/google/chrome-os/download/



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[Sombeech]

I'm gonna give it a go. I just installed Ubuntu the other day.


....I want my money back

[DiscGo]

You know, I love Google but I don't really get the whole Chrome OS. Google is usually innovative and they find ways to make things profitable for their shareholders and intuitive and beneficial for their users but I just don't get the Chome OS.


1st- You have to pay for it
2nd- I don't really get how it is anything more than a robust version of Chome
3rd- Yes, I do use the internet a lot but I also do a lot of things without the internet. What happens with my computer when I have no internet and am unable to access the cloud with all my files
4th- It sounds like Chrome OS is on track to be the first OS to have less functionality and purpose than a Mac. Who would buy a computer with real hardware to run Chome?

[Sombeech]

1st- You have to pay for it

Forget it then. I'm not paying for a beefed up Google account.

[Cirrus2000]

4th- It sounds like Chrome OS is on track to be the first OS to have less functionality and purpose than a Mac.
:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

[accadacca]

4th- It sounds like Chrome OS is on track to be the first OS to have less functionality and purpose than a Mac.
:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:
O jeez dood. Can I have some of that weed. :bandit2: Google and Apple are known to be much more user friendly then anything that Mr. Gates puts out. Common knowledge in the tech world. They have won countless user interface design awards over the years and are continually voted the easiest to use out of the box. You must be too deep into the hardware side of things to understand this...I work on frontend systems, UI.

[DiscGo]

The iPhone is awesome and certainly the best put together phone in the world. I love Google. I have been very impressed with most of their products and the seminars I have attended that were put on by Google have REALLY impressed me. So it isn't that I dislike Google, it is just that I am a fan of practicality.

Macs are the best computers in the world as long as all you want to do is surf the web, or do Mac approved tasks. But can you even imagine how much our entire world would be held back if all programs had to be approved by Windows to work? In the case of Google Chrome OS, if everything really is in the cloud, what happens with your laptop when the cloud is unavailable? If internet is a requirement for your computer to work, then it stands to reason that your computer is worthless without the internet and I believe we all use our laptops in areas where we don't always have internet (airports, cars, the desert, etc.).

It is also my understanding that Google plans on following Apple's model of needing to approve applications in order for them to work in their OS. I think the main reason why Chrome hasn't taken off is because you cannot currently use the plugins that you can use in IE or Firefox. I believe that will be a bigger issue with their OS.

Say what you want about me or Windows users but I know a lot of people that wouldn't have jobs if they had to wait for their software to be approved to be used. How many Mac users really can do everything they need on a Mac? Those who can do everything on a Mac have surely found a perfect fit for themselves but the average person relies on the openness of Windows much more than most even realize.

[RedMan]

How many Mac users really can do everything they need on a Mac? Those who can do everything on a Mac have surely found a perfect fit for themselves but the average person relies on the openness of Windows much more than most even realize.

Obviously you don't own a mac.
After four years on a mac you couldn't pay me to take a Windows machine.

[DiscGo]

Obviously you don't own a mac.


True. I do not. Though I do IT for about 50 Macs and they consistently have as many problems as the PCs do if not more. So I AM very familiar with Macs.



After four years on a mac you couldn't pay me to take a Windows machine.

Do you run VMware Fusion? It seems like to make the Mac really worth it, you need fusion. And if you do run Fusion it is the Windows machine in the background which provides the functionality needed.

For the record, not everything I need runs on Windows and I don't think Windows is perfect. But I am a much bigger fan of Linux and Windows for their openness.

[stefan]

Macs are the best computers in the world as long as all you want to do is surf the web, or do Mac approved tasks.


:roll:

[Sombeech]

I kinda felt the same way after installing Ubuntu.

At first it was like "Sweet, a different operating system. Wow, look at it boot up. Sweet wallpapers. It comes with Open Office and Mozilla Firefox"

Then, after I shared my external hard drive, changed my screensaver settings, and watched a few clips on Hulu.... I started to wonder what I could actually do with it that was new and exciting.

It's frozen on me 3X in several days just watching Hulu. I've had to hard reboot it. And there's only a fraction of open source software that is compatible with Ubuntu.

Nonetheless, I'm glad I tried it out just so I could see "what I've been missing".

[DiscGo]

Ubuntu is pretty sweet. I have had it on multiple computers and only had never had it lock up on me. Ubuntu is especially great for networking. If you have port monitoring turned on your switch, you can use Ubuntu to monitor everything every computer on your network does with the internet.


We have used it to monitor traffic and then hear phone calls that were on IP phones, verify who was using the most bandwidth, see what sites everyone is visiting, etc.

When you go to setup topology (or just multiple wireless routers or access points) on a location you can use Ubuntu's wireless tools to verify the channel on which you should broadcast, where you should place your APs, etc.


It is difficult to really group everyone into one category, but the smartest IT people I know are almost all linux lovers. Linux totally appeals to a certain demographic and those are often the ones capable of doing amazing things. So I wouldn't write Ubuntu off yet. I think that Ubuntu could very well replace Windows in the next 10-15 years and there are some incredible programs on Linux that you cannot find elsewhere.

[DiscGo]

Macs are the best computers in the world as long as all you want to do is surf the web, or do Mac approved tasks.


:roll:


Say what you want about me or your Macs, but I would be really surprised if you Mac guys don't know on some level that what I am saying is right.

How many start up companies (that are not websites) start out in people's basements? If any one company had to approve every program in the world, then either EVERYTHING would cost more money to pay for the army of full time employees which would have to review every program in the world, or you would have a lot less programs.


I realize that for some of you guys loving your Macs is close to a religion to you and I really don't mean to upset anyone, or disrespect your passion for your computer. I really do think that Apple makes a solid product and for a lot people (who really don't use their computers for much more than emailing and surfing the web or uploading their pictures), the Mac is a great option.

I liken the Macs to driving a bus. I drove a bus for years and I really enjoyed it. I believe that paralleling parking a bus and really driving a bus in general to be a lot easier than driving a car. You just have to know its capabilities and limits. For the record I am not comparing a Mac to a bus in terms of speed, or maneuverability. Just that Macs have more limits and if you stay within those limits and have no need to go outside of them, then you'll love it.

[theking648]

I agree with everything DiscGo said. except this part " iPhone is awesome and certainly the best put together phone in the world" I'm going to support my droid on that one.


but lets keep in mind here that Chrome OS is really only intended for netbooks. I do not agree with the way google is setting it up. when i first heard about a google operating system I was excited. now after what I've learned about it, I'm very disappointed with google, but I'm not going to dis on them too bad... who else do you see trying to come up with different operating systems??

[stefan]

If any one company had to approve every program in the world


huh?



I really do think that Apple makes a solid product and for a lot people (who really don't use their computers for much more than emailing and surfing the web or uploading their pictures), the Mac is a great option.
Just that Macs have more limits and if you stay within those limits and have no need to go outside of them, then you'll love it.

what exactly makes you qualified to talk about the full spectrum of use of a computer?

[DiscGo]

I'm going to support my droid on that one.


I have heard good things about the new droid but I have not used one or seen one.



I'm very disappointed with google, but I'm not going to dis on them too bad...

Yeah, I don't know. Google usually makes things great, so I have reason to believe they'll pull it off but so far I am skeptical. I would assume there would have to be an offline mode to access your files.

[Sombeech]

My only reason to switch to a Mac would be performing some task that wasn't available through Windows. ---I've yet to find one that I need.

My Windows machines probably lock up on me once every 3 months or so, 5 minutes later after a reboot, I'm right back on. Definitely not a reason to switch to a machine with less program options.

I'm taking a rough guess that Mac computer users are @15% of the desktop/laptop crowd now. People ask me to fix their computers, and you know what? @15% of them are Mac users. My super math skillz tell me Macs have the same amount of problems. Either that, or the Mac problems are VERY small but the users are complete idiots compared to PC users. I'll be nice, and stick with the former. ;)

Of course, I'd rather work on PCs so they're stuck with spending their whole Saturday going to the nearest Mac shop an hour's drive away. :haha: Ask them if they'd rather have a computer freeze for 5 minutes every 3 months.

[JP]

what exactly makes you qualified to talk about the full spectrum of use of a computer?
Now this is comical :roflol: :roflol: Disco, I hope you got the same laughs out of that comment :mrgreen:

[DiscGo]

If any one company had to approve every program in the world


huh?

Do you understand that Apple approves every program for their systems? Part of the way that Apple can keep their computers safe is by having control of what is allowed to run on their computers (which in part is why you hear stories about Apps being approved or disapproved for iPhones by Apple). Microsoft and Linux on the other hand allows any and everyone to write and create programs for their Operating Systems. Almost every medium sized company in the world (and up) use some form of custom software.

You can install Windows on any machine, including making your own. Apple does not allow their OS to be installed on 3rd party systems allowing them to control the hardware their customers use in an attempt to control their customers' experience.


what exactly makes you qualified to talk about the full spectrum of use of a computer?

Well among other things, I am an "IT Consultant" (that is my actual job title). My job consists of consulting companies on what to build their infrastructure and then implementing and maintaining that plan. It is literally my job to stay up to date on IT solutions (including different forms of computers) and then maintain my customers networks using those solutions.

I don't know everything but about every OS. But I do support a lot of different computer and a lot of different users with different needs. Almost every company that is a client of my company has some form of custom software (time clocks, heating and air conditioning, firewall, 3rd party application like an insurance quoting program etc.) on which their company depends.

My experience is that Macs are generally only a solid option for web designers, architects, or people who are running VMware Fusion (which gives them the functionality they need).

[asdf]

Making some great points there Dan but don't forget about Apples proprietary hardware issues.

[stefan]

If any one company had to approve every program in the world


huh?
Do you understand that Apple approves every program for their systems?


you talking about the iphone? you used the word 'mac'. the iphone is not a mac.




Microsoft and Linux on the other hand allows any and everyone to write and create programs for their Operating Systems. Almost every medium sized company in the world (and up) use some form of custom software.


please explain, how is software development on a mac restricted?





Well among other things, I am an "IT Consultant" (that is my actual job title). My job consists of being consulting companies on what to build their infrastructure and then implementing and maintaining that plan. It is literally my job to stay up to date on IT solutions (including different forms of computers) and then maintain my customers networks using those solutions.

I don't know everything but about every OS. But I do support a lot of different computer and a lot of different users with different needs. Almost every company that is a client of my company has some form of custom software (time clocks, heating and air conditioning, firewall, 3rd party application like an insurance quoting program etc.) on which their company depends.

My experience is that Macs are generally only a solid option for web designers or people who are running VMware Fusion (which gives them the functionality they need).

interesting stuff, to be sure. i am not trying to be rude, discgo, but as you yourself point out, your experience is limited, nonetheless.

[accadacca]

Either that, or the Mac problems are VERY small but the users are complete idiots compared to PC users. I'll be nice, and stick with the former. ;)
There have been so many generalizations stated in this thread. All from people who have very little experience with Macs. Kinda like me talking about owning a Porsche when I have only driven them a few times. Kinda fun making generalizations though, let me make one too. Most of the people that bring computers to you are idiots. It wouldn't matter what kind of computer they had, they would break it :lol8: One more, Mac users are the popular cool kids and PC users have always been the nerds. :haha:

Macs are great for many creative jobs and this is the field that I am in. They are simply setup the best for me and my team. More generalizations (wait I have actually used PC's and Macs for years): The Mac UI is also very friendly to the type of work that creative professionals do. If I was going to do word processing all day then I would choose PC (although many of the UI traits of PC's have a similar setup to Macs now...hmmmm). I also like to be different. I don't buy the same stuff that everyone has...I like unique things. At 15% Macs are different...which is good for me. :2thumbs:

Don't forget that it was Microsoft that designed a system where you used the "Start" button to turn off the machine. :roflol:

[asdf]

There have been so many generalizations stated in this thread.


Ok so how this for a generalization.
Went the Apple store and Costco.com and picked out what seemed to be (at a glance) two comparable notebooks.

Apple
15-inch: 2.53GHz
4GB Memory
250GB hard drive
SD card slot
NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics
$1699

or

Win7
15.6" 2.2GHz
4GB DDR2-667 dual channel 667MHz memory
500GB hard drive
5-in-1 digital multimedia card reader
$599.99

[Scott Card]

FORD :frustrated: :frustrated:

[Scott Card]

FORD :frustrated: :frustrated:Chevy :nod: :nod: :frustrated: oh.... wrong thred :haha: (you computer guys crack me up :haha: )

[DiscGo]

Like I said Stefan- Say what you want. My review is not a full spectrum but a general spectrum and no offense right back at you but I don't care at all if you don't think I am qualified to have an opinion on the subject.

[asdf]

FORD :frustrated: :frustrated:Chevy :nod: :nod: :frustrated: oh.... wrong thred :haha: (you computer guys crack me up :haha: )

Scott,

Ford $25,000
Chevy $75,000

any questions :haha:

[Scott Card]

FORD :frustrated: :frustrated:Chevy :nod: :nod: :frustrated: oh.... wrong thred :haha: (you computer guys crack me up :haha: )

Scott,

Ford $25,000
Chevy $75,000

any questions :haha:I own a Tundra... but I digress.. :haha:

[Sombeech]

So what about Chrome? :haha:

Seriously, Macs are good computers. They're expensive, but if you have a goal in mind that can be accomplished with a Mac, it's a good machine. You won't go wrong.

If you want a general use system to install various things as you come across them, and yes, this includes unsafe software, then Windows is a great system.

With the School District, there can be 100 staff members in a High School. Each of them dabble in something a little different. We just couldn't have this same kind of variety with Mac. Sure, some of them wander off and pick up viruses because they're trying to print a video....

But in the end I feel I'm a better Tech by being exposed to a wider realm of software, options, and yes - even problems that I solve.

Somebody told me this morning they were thinking of buying a Mac. For sake of conversation, I asked why. They said because they don't crash.

He's got a PC desktop and laptop here, and they've yet to crash. So, kudos to Mac for great marketing, because that's what it is. He's never actually experienced a crashed PC, he's just heard things.... and so it goes.

[stefan]

Like I said Stefan- Say what you want. My review is not a full spectrum but a general spectrum and no offense right back at you but I don't care at all if you don't think I am qualified to have an opinion on the subject.

i simply think you paint really broad strokes and your statements would be more reasonable if you added more words to qualify them. i think being in IT gives you a lot of perspective and experience, clearly more than most. but since you're painting broad strokes, i'm just challenging your opinion. since you didn't explicitly refer to "general use," whatever that means, i simply took your opinion literally and interpreted your statement to mean the full spectrum of use.

anyway, since you're in IT, i assume you have good understand of OS X and the macintosh computer. so i'll address some of what you've written




The iPhone is awesome and ....


again, let's make it clear that the iphone is not a mac. although os x for the iphone is very much related to os x for the mac, there are key differences. if one is talking about computers, then one is not talking about the iphone. the lines will probably be blurred when apple's tablet comes out with yet another version of OS X.




Macs are the best computers in the world as long as all you want to do is surf the web, or do Mac approved tasks.


i have no desire to determine what is the best computer for what purpose. i think most people care about a product that they like and works well for their needs, whatever those may be.



Macs are the best computers in the world as long as all you want to do is surf the web, or do Mac approved tasks.


mac approved tasks? what on earth do you mean. keep in mind this isn't the os x operating system for the iphone.



But can you even imagine how much our entire world would be held back if all programs had to be approved by Windows to work?


again failing to see your point. software development for OS X is arguably hindered most by small market share.



It is also my understanding that Google plans on following Apple's model of needing to approve applications in order for them to work in their OS.


again you seem to be blurring the lines between the iphone and OS X for the macintosh computer. apple has multiple families of operating systems. approving applications only applies to OS X for the iphone. i assume you're referring to this.



Say what you want about me or Windows users but I know a lot of people that wouldn't have jobs if they had to wait for their software to be approved to be used.


again with the approved ... now it would seem to me that here you make a direct comparison to windows and the iphone software. seems kinda apples and oranges to me, no?



How many Mac users really can do everything they need on a Mac?


i am very satisfied and, since i need to qualify, i do substantially more on a computer than browse the web or upload pictures. the only thing i really want is an internet explorer that runs natively and render webpages exactly as it would on a PC so i can check web design. however, i am sure someone could convince me of something that currently doesn't exist on a mac.




Those who can do everything on a Mac have surely found a perfect fit for themselves but the average person relies on the openness of Windows much more than most even realize.


this would be an interesting analysis that i would be interested in having a better understanding of.






as long as all you want to do is surf the web, or do Mac approved tasks.

:roll:
Say what you want about me or your Macs, but I would be really surprised if you Mac guys don't know on some level that what I am saying is right.


personally, i don't know what you're saying is right. i do substantially more with a computer than surf the web, and i don't feel there is much missing that i would have access to if i used a pc, so i disagree with you. i do realize that there is more software available on a PC, so i can see that some may recognize that software on the mac is limited.


If any one company had to approve every program in the world, then either EVERYTHING would cost more money to pay for the army of full time employees which would have to review every program in the world, or you would have a lot less programs.


again ... not following.




I realize that for some of you guys loving your Macs is close to a religion to you


eh, for some it might be. i work night and day on a computer and i want something that works for me and that i enjoy working on. personally i like the unix-based approach of os x and between the extensive unix based software, apple software, and software developed for os x, the majority of my needs are very easily satisfied.



I really do think that Apple makes a solid product and for a lot people (who really don't use their computers for much more than emailing and surfing the web or uploading their pictures), the Mac is a great option.


your words appear to suggest you are trying to say apple likely does NOT make a solid product for people who don't use their computers for more than email and surfing or uploading pictures.

well, that's your opinion, but i'll totally disagree. i think a lot of people would disagree with you. this is one of those points where i think you make way broader strokes than your experience allows you to. perhaps if you qualified better what you're trying to say.




Do you understand that Apple approves every program for their systems?


no i don't understand this. i do know it's true for the application to run on apple's iphone software, but aside from this i don't understand what you mean.


Microsoft and Linux on the other hand allows any and everyone to write and create programs for their Operating Systems.

who is not allowed to write software for the mac and why?



You can install Windows on any machine, including making your own. Apple does not allow their OS to be installed on 3rd party systems allowing them to control the hardware their customers use in an attempt to control their customers' experience.


true and apple will likely fight to the end to keep it true. that's their business model.

[Sombeech]

whoa




let's simplify it; What program or process can you do on a Mac that can't be done on a PC?

PS, remember not to use your "broad strokes" statements like "doesn't crash" or "viruses" because it's false. I'm monitoring over 300 computers in my building right now, 2 of them had a virus this year. ...that's >1%

[Deeps]

Final Cut Pro. Isn't that enough?

[asdf]

let's simplify it; What program or process can you do on a Mac that can't be done on a PC?

and don't forgot to explain why macs cost twice as much as a PC

[Cirrus2000]

let's simplify it; What program or process can you do on a Mac that can't be done on a PC?

and don't forgot to explain why macs cost twice as much as a PC
They look so cool! More like an artiste would use than an accountant. :haha:

[DiscGo]

let's simplify it; What program or process can you do on a Mac that can't be done on a PC?

and don't forgot to explain why macs cost twice as much as a PC
They look so cool! More like an artiste would use than an accountant. :haha:

:haha:

[Deeps]

let's simplify it; What program or process can you do on a Mac that can't be done on a PC?

and don't forgot to explain why macs cost twice as much as a PC

I can't. Because they don't. At least not when comparing identical specifications.

[asdf]

let's simplify it; What program or process can you do on a Mac that can't be done on a PC?

and don't forgot to explain why macs cost twice as much as a PC

I can't. Because they don't. At least not when comparing identical specifications.

Example......

[Deeps]

Pass. You show a comparable example, or one that supports your position that a Mac will cost twice as much.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Pass. You show a comparable example, or one that supports your position that a Mac will cost twice as much.

i think he already did...

[Sombeech]

http://lulzful.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/1231364050235.jpg

[asdf]

Pass. You show a comparable example, or one that supports your position that a Mac will cost twice as much.

From page 2



Ok so how this for a generalization.
Went the Apple store and Costco.com and picked out what seemed to be (at a glance) two comparable notebooks.

Apple
15-inch: 2.53GHz
4GB Memory
250GB hard drive
SD card slot
NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics
$1699

or

Win7
15.6" 2.2GHz
4GB DDR2-667 dual channel 667MHz memory
500GB hard drive
5-in-1 digital multimedia card reader
$599.99

exactly the same? no
comparable? yes

The cheepest 15" macbook pro I could find was 1700 dollars.

Here is a link to the 67 laptops on newegg in the 750-1000 range
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2034940032%204022&name=%24750%20-%20%241000

Here is a link to the 99 laptops on tigerdirect in the 750-1000 range
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/Category/guidedSearch.asp?CatId=17&sel=Price;Price7

and.. 30 more at costco.
http://www.costco.com/Common/Category.aspx?whse=BC&Ne=5000000&eCat=BC|84|56670&N=4017745+5000107&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ns=P_Price|1||P_SignDesc1&lang=en-US&topnav=

[Sombeech]

I'm really diggin' those little mini notebooks. About 6 months ago they were around $200, but for some reason, they crept up to $300. hmmmmm.......

One of the Techs I work with has one and he loves it. You can just plug in an SD card and use that for more RAM as well. It's not going to do the heavy processing jobs for you, but they're a great mobile laptop.

Sometimes you have to wonder if these big laptops were meant to be mobile, they're 2 feet wide and they're packed in transit like the most fragile precious gem. One pair of sunglasses packed wrong in the suitcase, and your monitor is cracked.

These little web books or whatever they're called are super easy to take around.

[Deeps]

Ok so how this for a generalization.
Went the Apple store and Costco.com and picked out what seemed to be (at a glance) two comparable notebooks.

Apple
15-inch: 2.53GHz
4GB Memory
250GB hard drive
SD card slot
NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics
$1699

or

Win7
15.6" 2.2GHz
4GB DDR2-667 dual channel 667MHz memory
500GB hard drive
5-in-1 digital multimedia card reader
$599.99

exactly the same? no
comparable? yes
[/quote]

That's not a comparison.

You're missing a lot of info, and the specs that line up are up and down. You can upgrade the Apple HD to 500 GB for $150 BTO.

What's the screen resolution? What screen technology are they employing? What's the graphics card on the Win7? Backlit keyboard? Battery life? Weight? The processor is running at different speeds, is it the same processor (Core2 Duo on the Mac)? Built in i-sight camera and microphone? How do the speakers compare? Do you get a free printer with the PC? You do with the Mac.

I'm not even going to get into design features like the mag-safe adaptor that's saved my power connection more than once. Apple doesn't design their computers just for aesthetics.

I clicked on your newegg link. The prices are more in the $850 - $1000 range

[asdf]

That's not a comparison.

You're missing a lot of info, and the specs that line up are up and down. You can upgrade the Apple HD to 500 GB for $150 BTO.

What's the screen resolution? What screen technology are they employing? What's the graphics card on the Win7? Backlit keyboard? Battery life? Weight? The processor is running at different speeds, is it the same processor (Core2 Duo on the Mac)? Built in i-sight camera and microphone? How do the speakers compare? Do you get a free printer with the PC? You do with the Mac.

It sure is.
But I really don't have the time or desire to hash out the specifics.

So.. you adding a 500gb hard drive. So with we are up to $1900.

POS graphics card - I am not interested in running games (nor or you cause you running a mac), processing photos, or anything graphically intensive programs. I have three desktops that can do these things.

Back lit keyboard - I am sure I can find a laptop with a back lit keyboard for under $1900. I also just ordered 3 small flash lights off steep and cheap for 3.99 each and they have a little clip that will connect to a hat or head band. I could order over 300 of them for the price difference.

Slightly shorter battery life - dunno, I learned not to trust any manufactures specifications for battery life a long time ago.

2lbs of extra weight - On most every hike I do I carry 4-6 beers in my pack along with an SLR, extra lens, and a full size tripod. At 6'2" 245lb packing around any extra weight I can is only going to do me some good.

Web cam - I could careless but my peeps on myspace would be missing out.

Printer - Something I learned about printers a long time ago was that free = piece of shit.

None of those things are worth an extra $1300 but that's just me. I am in the market for a laptop and would not mind owning macbook but I think I would rather save some cash and put it towards a new camera body.

[Deeps]

It sure is.
But I really don't have the time or desire to hash out the specifics.

So.. you adding a 500gb hard drive. So with we are up to $1900.

POS graphics card - I am not interested in running games (nor or you cause you running a mac), processing photos, or anything graphically intensive programs. I have three desktops that can do these things.

Back lit keyboard - I am sure I can find a laptop with a back lit keyboard for under $1900. I also just ordered 3 small flash lights off steep and cheap for 3.99 each and they have a little clip that will connect to a hat or head band. I could order over 300 of them for the price difference.

Slightly shorter battery life - dunno, I learned not to trust any manufactures specifications for battery life a long time ago.

2lbs of extra weight - On most every hike I do I carry 4-6 beers in my pack along with an SLR, extra lens, and a full size tripod. At 6'2" 245lb packing around any extra weight I can is only going to do me some good.

Web cam - I could careless but my peeps on myspace would be missing out.

Printer - Something I learned about printers a long time ago was that free = piece of shit.

None of those things are worth an extra $1300 but that's just me. I am in the market for a laptop and would not mind owning macbook but I think I would rather save some cash and put it towards a new camera body.

Don't straw-man me with camera gear you would rather spend the money on argument. The fact is your comparison isn't comparable. And you said it yourself - you're not looking for a laptop that can handle intensive tasks. Don't fault the MacBook Pro because it can. Emphasis on Pro.

You're getting a 20% faster frontside bus, a third more L2 cache, and RAM running at almost twice the speed. Those numbers effect performance alone, but the user experience as well.

Drop to a 13" MacBook and still have better native resolution than most of the newegg 15" PC laptop's, same resolution, smaller package. You would only be spending an extra $100-$200 over newegg listings... And still getting the same bus, cache and RAM speed advantages in the Pro above. If you're just looking for something to surf the net on, buy one of the mini's Justin was talking about.

The backlit keyboard may seem like a luxury to you, but I would feel self conscious using a $3.99 clip-on headlamp while giving a presentation in a dark conference room or trying to work during a flight. I'll pay a little extra for 7 hours of battery life compared to 4 on the PC's. The Epson inkjet rebate printer I got three years ago still works beautifully, as does the Samsung color laser I got two years ago. Though admittedly, I paid $100 for the Samsung since it was a $200 printer.

You're also getting a laptop that is made of glass and aluminum that can be recycled. MacBook Pro's use displays and components that are mercury-free, arsenic-free, BFR-free and PVC-free. That may seem to be an intangible, but I appreciate their effort and it's worth noting. What eco-advantage does the Acer offer? CineCrystal

[asdf]

20% faster for a 200% the price

[Deeps]

20% faster for a 200% the price

The MacBook Pro and the POS Costco Acer are not comparable.

[asdf]

20% faster for a 200% the price

The MacBook Pro and the POS Costco Acer are not comparable.

:roll: that was the first laptop I saw on costco.com

oh -I missed the ram upgrade....# 8GB 1066MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2x4GB [Add $600.00]
what a steal!

[Sombeech]

oh -I missed the ram upgrade....# 8GB 1066MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2x4GB [Add $600.00]
what a steal!

:eek2: Order 3 for me.

8GB DDR3 RAM is about $200 on www.crucial.com

I'm still not too familiar with using SD cards for speed boosts, but I would try that first before buying $200 - $600 in more RAM.

[CarpeyBiggs]

oh -I missed the ram upgrade....# 8GB 1066MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2x4GB [Add $600.00]
what a steal!

:eek2: Order 3 for me.

8GB DDR3 RAM is about $200 on www.crucial.com

I'm still not too familiar with using SD cards for speed boosts, but I would try that first before buying $200 - $600 in more RAM.

i have a netbook, but i've never heard of sd for ram upgrade. what's the story? sd has to be relatively slow, methinks.

[DiscGo]

i have a netbook, but i've never heard of sd for ram upgrade. what's the story? sd has to be relatively slow, methinks.

It only works with Vista or Windows 7. It is the same technology for using a flash drive for additional memory (called "Ready Boost"). You have to be careful with it. If you know what you are doing you can add an increase of speed and performance over time as your computer learns what programs you use more frequently it will leave the files needed to run your most popular programs on the flash memory device and over time those programs will load faster.

Sometimes adding only 512mb of your 4 gig flash memory device will give you better performance than adding all 4 gigs and other times adding the full memory device is faster. It depends on the card and your setup. Sometimes it makes it slower over all. But in general it is a pretty slick technology and it works pretty well. I used for a long time on a work computer and was disappointed at first but once I got it figured out, it worked really well.

The two main things are that you first make sure you get a card which is "Ready Boost" capable (it will most likely be advertised as such) and second make sure you leave the card in your laptop permanently (otherwise your processor will go to look for memory where it is used to storing it and it won't be there slowing it down and un-training your processor on where to find it)

[Sombeech]

hmmm... so add a permanent 8GB SD card in there for what, about 40 bucks?

But I guess stuff will get kinda messy when you take it out to read your camera's card temporarily?

I wonder if it would be better to keep a permanent USB port occupied with a ready boost thumb drive.

[DiscGo]

hmmm... so add a permanent 8GB SD card in there for what, about 40 bucks?
Correct but it is not nearly as good as actual RAM


But I guess stuff will get kinda messy when you take it out to read your camera's card temporarily?

Yeah, if you want to ever dump pictures on the computer using that card slot, I wouldn't use the memory card. But if you have a multicard reader and you don't use one of the card types, there you go.

[CarpeyBiggs]

hmmm... so add a permanent 8GB SD card in there for what, about 40 bucks?
Correct but it is not nearly as good as actual RAM


But I guess stuff will get kinda messy when you take it out to read your camera's card temporarily?

Yeah, if you want to ever dump pictures on the computer using that card slot, I wouldn't use the memory card. But if you have a multicard reader and you don't use one of the card types, there you go.

my netbook has 2 sd card slots, but it is xp... hmm...

[DiscGo]

It looks like I may be wrong about Chrome OS. I look forward to trying it.


http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/24/chrome-os-like-lightning-from-a-usb-key-we-could-get-used-to-th/

[Sombeech]

So how much does Chrome OS cost, I haven't seen the price yet. I'm actually surprised that it would cost money, coming from Google.

One note to the guy shooting the video....

TRIPOD

[DiscGo]

I'm downloading Chrome OS right now, and I'm going to test it on Friday. That should help make up my mind.

[stefan]

whoa
let's simplify it; What program or process can you do on a Mac that can't be done on a PC?


hey, beech, sorry for the delay. but, i can't possibly fathom the whole of software available for pcs ... developed around the world. i would expect that there is very little you couldn't do except for proprietary software and, perhaps, differences in the way certain things are done or how programs interact with the operating system. it's an interesting question though.




PS, remember not to use your "broad strokes" statements like "doesn't crash" or "viruses" because it's false.


i don't need to remember. i am not an advocate of macs against pcs. never have been. as i've stated many times on this forum, my experience with windows is very limited. if anything, i suppose, given MS's dominance and unlimited resources, i would expect it to be one of the best products out there (the only thing i would advocate against windows is ending support for IE6, but that's for selfish reasons, of course. and, yes, i realize it's important for other people!)

on another topic, seems like the multiple operating systems is right in line with the free market, which many feel is generally a good thing? clearly a company has a bigger task to write software for multiple operating systems, clearly there are compatibility issues, but surely we don't want a single party operating system providing for all, do we? i would think that would stunt innovation, diversity, and all those good things. clearly there are caveats here ... intercommunication should be important.

i can see that some people favor one operating system based on its seemingly unlimited options. i can see some people favoring an operating system based on their experience with it, i can imagine that there are a whole lot of reasons an individual chooses which operating system they use that are well beyond my understanding. everyone has their own particular reasons why they use what they use. i think that's the reality.




I'm monitoring over 300 computers in my building right now, 2 of them had a virus this year. ...that's >1%

that's great! as much as the social commentary on humans inventing computer viruses is quite interesting, i find the whole idea of viruses a detriment to productivity and a nuisance. but like plastic, it's natural, right?

[theking648]

So how much does Chrome OS cost, I haven't seen the price yet. I'm actually surprised that it would cost money, coming from Google.

One note to the guy shooting the video....

TRIPOD

it's free and open source.

[DiscGo]

So how much does Chrome OS cost, I haven't seen the price yet. I'm actually surprised that it would cost money, coming from Google.

One note to the guy shooting the video....

TRIPOD

it's free and open source.

I think it is $40 dollars
http://gdgt.com/google/chrome-os/

[jman]

It's always amusing to me that my friends who use Macs say it doesn't have viruses, or have crashes, etc.

Well I have a Macbook Pro, and it's interesting sometimes, when I open certain programs, although not very common, the program will open up, open the document and for some weird reason, close automatically and I have no idea why. That my Mac friends is what PC people call a crash. Mac's crash almost as much as PCs do.

The difference is, Windows announces to you what the error is and what caused it (usually a memory leak or faulty programming of the .dll, or just bad programming by the OS). OS X, will NOT tell what the error is and what caused it. Unless you go to debugger mode on OS X, which is what I do to see why on earth is causing it to fault, but ONLY then will you see that it was a crash.

And Deeps, I have looked up other comparable mac and pc laptops, usually, the Macs are priced up another $500 on a average. But like you said earlier, all the construction to the Mac (mercury-free, arscenic free, etc.) is what you pay for.

By the way, my HP compaq nc6000 laptop, and currently running Windows 7 is fantastic and it was all for over $700 about 4 years ago. I haven't had any problems yet with it so far, well, except that I could use a dual-core and more ram than 1GB, but even with my two monitors I run in extension to my laptop's monitor. I'm impressed.

On my Macbook Pro, it does a decent job with the same setup of 3monitors total, but it's not nearly as smooth. And the ironic part is, it's a lot faster than my 1.3 GHz laptop.

But don't worry, I have my hate for PCs too.
But that's wear Linux kicks in. Theoretically, every wifi card should support promisicous mode (monitor mode/sniffing/etc), but with Windows, most wifi cards don't support it. Mac does and so does Linux. But for advanced network capabilities, the no brainer is Linux.

And just as a side-note, there is a ongoing contest called Pwn2Own but back in 2008 the opponents are, PC (Vista Ultimate) vs. Linux (ubuntu 7.10) vs. Mac (OS X 10.5.2) - and an advanced team of hackers, on the first day, only using network attacks, none could get in to either. Then the 2nd day, only using browser attacks, Mac was the first to go down in under 2 minutes...Safari WAS not secure at all. Even with Macs (or as Stefan likes to keep infering, OS X) , the firewall is turned-off by default (not even the flimsy manual my Macbook Pro came with told me about that...I double checked and reread the dumb thing).

Guess which one was unscathed by the attacks: Linux! But does it mean it's unhackable - of course not. It's just, more secure. In a league of its own. And who fell last in security measures/defenses? Mac! Even the dreaded and loathed Vista did much better than OS X... Just something to keep in mind...Oh, and I can't forget the Iphone security along with Mac's security. The most hacked, unsecure phone ever. Sure, every iphone updates targets the exploits, but just like M$, THAT'S a LOT of security holes...hehe

[DiscGo]

Jman- I found your post very interesting and I agree with everything you said.

By the way Pwn2Own happens every year and the only browser last year to have not been hacked was Chome.

[jman]

Jman- I found your post very interesting and I agree with everything you said.

By the way Pwn2Own happens every year and the only browser last year to have not been hacked was Chome.

Hey you know about it too...I have been following it for the past few years and saw the part about Chrome, which makes the OS even more interesting to me, but I agree, I think a majority (75%) consumers need a OFFLINE mode regardless of OS. A complete "cloud" version or ONLINE only, I don't think would EVER suffice for the power user. Although, perhaps for non-regular users, such as my mother, the most she does with her laptop is word processing, watching shows on hulu, lots of email, and surfing the web. Whenever I visit her, I check to make sure her computer is running smoothly and no viruses/rootkits/malware/spyware is on it to rob her of her fininancial data. (I'm the IT guy in the family). Anywho, for her, a computer that boots up within seconds and launches to the internet and is more than average secure, Chrome OS would be a perfect match.

But, as you and me know, it might work for some clients - but I don't think it will ever match the capabilities of other OSes.

Besides, versatility, for lack of a better word, is powerful. Even Stefan can agree with that. That's why I believe the iPhone is so powerful (that's one BIG reason why I got it). I can do SO much with it (as I have stated in other threads). Other phones don't have that versatility. The hatred towards the iphone from non-iphone users, is I believe jealousy. And although, Verizon has its ads making fun of the iphone, Verizon CEO has claimed it would be GREAT to have it. And they will have a CDMA version next year, so that's great news for Verizon and Apple, but I digress. (This is way offtopic, but this is a great read about America vs. the World using CDMA vs. GSM parameters, if you want a side-read, http://www.attheselevels.com/?p=4354)

Of my 15+ years in the IT department, I've noticed these stereotypes that is fascinating to me:

Like when it comes to Windows OSx, I can do so much with it that it's the overall pick for "everything". Mac, although it does have some movement, is still restricted to a comparatevly small software design-base, which is in at fault directed at the consumers and not Apple per se. The small fanbase were not really driving sales, and most applications that they use were built-in at a basic level, which leaves no desire for the layman to upgrade to premium, pay-for software.

A typical Mac user, wants to be different (hence the aesthetic designs) but for the most part they do typical things. Word processing, email, hulu, youtube, financial budgeting/stocks, photos and vids from cameras.

A typical PC user, doesn't really care about hardware specs, software specs, etc. They just "want a computer" that works and makes them do the typical things (as mentioned above).

A typical Power user, will usually go with a PC due to its versatility. BUT, in addition, to the PC, they will usually work with Linux for things its better at then windows, IE networking and its related field.

A typical video power user, will usually go with a Mac due to its engineering of video editing, presentations, and more fluidic-environment compared to Windows.

Back to topic,
With the future as I see it and as nearly the entire world will eventually be covered with radio signals (to access the internet), Google's Chrome OS might do poorly in the beginning but in the end, this is probaby a very smart idea. Besides, who DOESNT want to be able to access his/her files remotely; IE streaming home videos/movies and pics, access documents anywhere even if you forgot it on your home computer, etc. So with that, I disagree with Stefan, Google is a very smart company and this will prove to be a huge hit in the coming years (although I just hope they have a Offline mode or whatever later added to it).

[DiscGo]

Again Jman- I agree with you (oh except for one thing. I do think the Iphone is an awesome cellphone and certainly among the very best. My issue with the phone is that I know a lot of people who have them that are way in debt but feel the price is worth it for the status symbol. I guess I view Apple like I view BYU. I really like what they have but I dislike their fans :haha: )

[accadacca]

Good read jman. You certainly hit it on the head with several points including the comment about video editing, etc on Macs. Many movies are edited using final cut pro. Nothing better available.


The hatred towards the iphone from non-iphone users, is I believe jealousy. And although, Verizon has its ads making fun of the iphone, Verizon CEO has claimed it would be GREAT to have it. And they will have a CDMA version next year, so that's great news for Verizon and Apple, but I digress.
Question and I know you have a link that I might browse. What is a CDMA version? If you are an iPhone user like myself (I know you are too), then you would love to see Apple team up with Verizon. Of course the Verizon ads are actually a jab at AT&T not Apple. Although Apple looks bad in the conversation because they are teamed up with AT&T which cripples the iPhone at times. Of course its not the iPhone itself that has problems, its the service. :popcorn:

[stefan]

With the future as I see it and as nearly the entire world will eventually be covered with radio signals (to access the internet), Google's Chrome OS might do poorly in the beginning but in the end, this is probaby a very smart idea. Besides, who DOESNT want to be able to access his/her files remotely; IE streaming home videos/movies and pics, access documents anywhere even if you forgot it on your home computer, etc. So with that, I disagree with Stefan,

i am not sure what we are disagreeing on. could you explain?

[jman]

Good read jman. You certainly hit it on the head with several points including the comment about video editing, etc on Macs. Many movies are edited using final cut pro. Nothing better available.


The hatred towards the iphone from non-iphone users, is I believe jealousy. And although, Verizon has its ads making fun of the iphone, Verizon CEO has claimed it would be GREAT to have it. And they will have a CDMA version next year, so that's great news for Verizon and Apple, but I digress.
Question and I know you have a link that I might browse. What is a CDMA version? If you are an iPhone user like myself (I know you are too), then you would love to see Apple team up with Verizon. Of course the Verizon ads are actually a jab at AT&T not Apple. Although Apple looks bad in the conversation because they are teamed up with AT&T which cripples the iPhone at times. Of course its not the iPhone itself that has problems, its the service. :popcorn:

heh, wow you seem to know me very good. anywho, here is your link.
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/04/26/apple_and_verizon_said_in_talks_for_2010_iphone.ht ml

Appleinsider, has confirmed numerous times that an iPhone version will be on Verizon shortly. CDMA is the network Verizon uses. GSM is what everything else uses. Both have its pros and cons and both at its base is comparable. Wikipedia has a good explanation i'm sure.

True, most of the problems, isn't the phone, as it already can do LOTS, but the service is another story. I'm sure in New York, 3G is constant and great there. Here in Utah, with ATT & 3G is different story. Way different story. Even with edge. It's sad that I get only ONE bar in Zion (visitor center), while my friend on Verizon has 4-5 in Zion.

[jman]

With the future as I see it and as nearly the entire world will eventually be covered with radio signals (to access the internet), Google's Chrome OS might do poorly in the beginning but in the end, this is probaby a very smart idea. Besides, who DOESNT want to be able to access his/her files remotely; IE streaming home videos/movies and pics, access documents anywhere even if you forgot it on your home computer, etc. So with that, I disagree with Stefan,

i am not sure what we are disagreeing on. could you explain?

Whoops, I apologize, I meant the theking648, not you stefan. I just reread and thought you said you were disappointed in Google in their decision at a OS, but it was theking. sorry for the mistake.

[stefan]

i am not sure what we are disagreeing on. could you explain?

Whoops, I apologize, I meant the theking648, not you stefan. I just reread and thought you said you were disappointed in Google in their decision at a OS, but it was theking. sorry for the mistake.

ahh, okay. no worries, thanks.

[stefan]

And just as a side-note, there is a ongoing contest called Pwn2Own but back in 2008 the opponents are, PC (Vista Ultimate) vs. Linux (ubuntu 7.10) vs. Mac (OS X 10.5.2) - and an advanced team of hackers, on the first day, only using network attacks, none could get in to either. Then the 2nd day, only using browser attacks, Mac was the first to go down in under 2 minutes...Safari WAS not secure at all.


i've followed the contest too since it started. just to point out, both in 2008 and 2009 it was a security researcher who broke safari. so ... he finds and uses the security flaw to win the contest and then, afterwards, reports it so it can be patched.




Guess which one was unscathed by the attacks: Linux! But does it mean it's unhackable - of course not. It's just, more secure.


some who know a lot about security warn about reading too much into the results of pwn2own. just because the hackers were less motivated to write the exploits for linux doesn't necessarily translate into 'more secure'. that is to say, to suggest that linux is more secure requires a more rigorous set of rules than a contest like pwn2own. sort of the difference between anecdotal evidence and comprehensive scientific results



Oh, and I can't forget the Iphone security along with Mac's security. The most hacked, unsecure phone ever. Sure, every iphone updates targets the exploits, but just like M$, THAT'S a LOT of security holes...hehe

that was last year, this year no hacker broke into ANY of the phones ... Blackberry, Android, iPhone, Nokia/Symbian and Windows Mobile.

here's a quote from an article:


But hackers were unable to crack into mobile phones to win a prize this week. The TippingPoint team provided Blackberry, Android, iPhone, Nokia/Symbian and Windows Mobile devices for anyone attending the conference to break.

It took a team from penetration testing vendor, Core Security Technologies Inc., to demonstrate the security prowess of mobile devices. During a presentation, Core security researchers Alfredo Ortega and Nico Economou demonstrated how to crack into the iPhone, Google Android and Windows Mobile devices using a simulated stack overflow vulnerability.

In an interview with SearchSecurity.com, Ortega said the Apple iPhone had the most security features, making it the most difficult to crack. Windows Mobile was the easiest to pwn, he said. Ortega said Google's Android phone needs further exploring. The team did not test all the security characteristics of Android, he said. Also missing from testing was the long anticipated release of Windows Mobile 7.

"We could make an exploit that works on the three devices so we may be able to say that it's a draw," Ortega said. "But from the research that we could do, in fact the iPhone has better security measures than Android or Windows Mobile."

The iPhone's stack memory is non-executable making it extremely difficult for hackers to crack, Ortega said. The memory security model is absent in Android, he said.

Smartphone operating systems have some of the same built-in security technologies as some desktop systems, said Ivan Arce, Core's chief technology officer. As they mature, mobile device security should improve, he said.

"Operating systems running on smart phones compared to desktop operating systems are somewhat lagging in terms of security mechanisms and protections," Arce said. "Eventually they will catch up and I think they will catch up faster."

Security experts say mobile devices are riddled with flaws. Multiple vulnerabilities have been discovered on all three devices. But the fragmented mobile device market has made it difficult for attackers to make money exploiting mobile device flaws, keeping them relatively safe for now. Arce said the rapid pace of adoption of some smartphones could put them at greater risk.



http://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/news/article/0,289142,sid14_gci1351415,00.html

[R]

Regarding the whole Mac vs PC, Canon vs Nikon, Ford vs Chevy, Coke vs Pepsi miasma, I will say this: 99% of the question is one of style, not substance. I tell my photo students that they can't go wrong with any of the digital SLRs today, so go try one and get the one they feels right in their hands. I use a Mac because it matches my style. I don't have anything bad to say about Windows.

[Sombeech]

Regarding the whole Mac vs PC, Canon vs Nikon, Ford vs Chevy, Coke vs Pepsi miasma, I will say this: 99% of the question is one of style, not substance. I tell my photo students that they can't go wrong with any of the digital SLRs today, so go try one and get the one they feels right in their hands. I use a Mac because it matches my style. I don't have anything bad to say about Windows.

True, as I said before, Macs are great machines. It just comes down to style.

Coke vs Pepsi though, I'm gonna hafta disagree. :haha:

[Scott Card]

Page 5 :lol8:

[DiscGo]

Not to be beating a dead horse with this thread, but I just wanted to share that my Father-in-law who is not the most tech-savvy person in the world switched to a Mac on my recommendation and he is loving it. I think it speaks volumes about Apple that someone like him could really adjust to their software so quickly after years of using a PC.