Rappel Device

[Iceaxe]

Just for fun I took this picture of some of the different rappel devices that were at the last Moab Bogleyfest. Just from observation I'd say 90% of the participants were using an ATC (various models) or a Piranha. At least that is the observation associated with the groups I was with. Our Saturday group had 17 canyoneers ranging in skill from god-like to total noob.

[moab mark]

I was suprised how many atc's there were at the fest. I was going to get one of my atc's out so I could fit in. For entertainment, what device do each of you mighty canyoneers use and why?
I use a pirana. Seems to work for what I need. I like how easy it is to rig and the different friction settings.

Mark

[Scott P]

I use ATC's because I like to use them for belaying as well. You can belay with other devices, but I like the ATC. Mine is labeled #1 in the photo.

[CarpeyBiggs]

ATC, i hate the twists from 8's and piranhas.

[ScoutColorado]

ATC guide and ATC XT. Simple, no twist
Mark,
I brought a Totem for you to play with on Sunday, but your kids got sick.

[neumannbruce]

Pirana.

It is easy to adjust friction settings on the fly. I never mix my climbing and canyoneering gear.

I use a reverso for climbing, but feel the reverso wouldn't hold up as well canyoneering - especially if it was wet and sandy. Any real life experience anyone?

Bruce

[Cirrus2000]

I'm an ATC XP user. Tried a Pirana on my last trip, and it was cool, but I've not had a problem getting enough friction, even on single 8mm, with the ATC. I love the thing. I think it's the name.

[Bo_Beck]

Originally used a CMI Mini "8", then went to BD Super "8", then went to ATC, next was ATC XP. Ocassionally use an HB Mini Rack with Brake Bars and Hyper Bars. Have been using the Conterra Scarab for rescue lowers, but would really like to try the Scarab Ti for canyon descents? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, but really simple to load, and add friction on the fly. Check it out!

http://scarabrescue.com/

[Iceaxe]

ATC-XP, I hate the twists from 8's and piranhas. #9 in the picture is mine.

[nat]

ATC-XP, I hate the twists from 8's and piranhas. #9 in the picture is mine.

I use exactly the same, and have for several years :2thumbs:

I've seen even experienced people screw up badly with 8's (girth hitch).

Nat

[rockgremlin]

ATC, i hate the twists from 8's and piranhas.


me too



ATC-XP

[moab mark]

ATC, i hate the twists from 8's and piranhas.


me too



ATC-XP

I have been rappeling on a pirana since I started and I am confused on what you guys are talking about? I assume you are talking about twist in double strands? If using an atc, if you needed to lock off for whatever reason how are you doing this? Leg wrap?
Mark

[trackrunner]

So is it sad that I think I can name all these devices

1. black diamond atc guide
2. petzl huit antibrulure
3. The Totem made by Rock Exotica
4. omega pacific SBGII
5. petzl pirana
6. petzl reverso
7. black diamond atc
8. a figure 8 (not so sure about the make going with Omega know it's not BD super 8)
9. black diamond atc-xp

Edit: for accuracy

[trackrunner]

ATC, i hate the twists from 8's and piranhas.


me too



ATC-XP

I have been rappeling on a pirana since I started and I am confused on what you guys are talking about? I assume you are talking about twist in double strands? If using an atc, if you needed to lock off for whatever reason how are you doing this? Leg wrap?
Mark

Yeah an 8 style device twist a rope when double strand. You can untwist it some by putting a biner connect to a cow's tail in between both strands above your 8 style device. You can solve the rope twisting by raping single strand with the rope set to length.

You can lock of a couple ways with a tube style device (atc-xp for example). Leg rap is the easiest. Another is to pinch the rope to the device with your non brake hand. With your brake hand pass a bight through the biner on your belay device and tie off with a mule hitch. For safety it

[ratagonia]

ATC, i hate the twists from 8's and piranhas.

me too ATC-XP

I have been rappeling on a pirana since I started and I am confused on what you guys are talking about? I assume you are talking about twist in double strands? If using an atc, if you needed to lock off for whatever reason how are you doing this? Leg wrap?
Mark

If the rope path is not straight (ie, does not fit on a plane), then pulling the rope through the device under tension will produce a twisting force. The more curvy the path, the stronger the twisting force. Regular Figure 8s are terrible; Pirana is moderately bad; ATC when well controlled produces zero.

The main problem is when ATC users rappel AFTER the Figure 8 users on double strands. ATCs do not tolerate twists well. Rapping single strand reduces these problems significantly.

Me - I prefer a Pirana for two reasons:
1. It's FASTER!!! Faster to rig up, faster to unrig.
2. It's more powerful!!! Meaning, it provides many more options especially in rescue situations. Though rarely used, these are important options for ME should the merde hit the escaladorator.

When doing canyons with few and/or short rappels, and with an experienced posse, I use an ATC XP.

:moses:

[Iceaxe]

I have been rappeling on a pirana since I started and I am confused on what you guys are talking about? I assume you are talking about twist in double strands?

An 8 type device twists the rope in both single and double strand, if the rappel line is touching the ground. The only way to stop a 8 from twisting the rope is to suspend the rappel line a couple inches above the ground so the twist remove themselves. This can be difficult as you might set the rope just off the ground, but with rope stretch the rappel line ends up on the ground and the rope ends up twisted.

IMHO: The twists are just anther pain in the ass thing to deal with that can cause problems when pulling you ropes. Twists can knot and hang when being pulled through rapids.

One benefit of an tube style devise (ATC) is that it actually straightens your ropes and removes twists and other potential problems.

This is from my own observations..... but.... If you look at the real hardcore canyoneers (guys who do a lot of difficult canyons) I bet you will find well over 75% are using an ATC of some type. And I bet if you look at the novice and recreational family canyoneers you will find about 75% are using an 8 of some type. I'm not saying using one device or the other makes you a pro, just something I've noticed, both have pro's and cons.

I've probably rappelled on everything under the sun at one time or other. I began using a 8, switched to a BD ATC for a couple of years, switched to a Trango B-52 for a couple of years, and finally switched to BD ATC-XP that I've been using since it was first introduced.

And a fun fact: The ATC-XP my wife is now using is actually one of the pre-production prototypes that was given to me by a friend at BD.... It was the first ATC-XP I ever saw and was before you could buy them.... err... something like that.

Anyhoo.... that's my 2 cents....

[Scott Card]

This is from my own observations..... but.... If you look at the real hardcore canyoneers (guys who do a lot of difficult canyons) I bet you will find well over 75% are using an ATC of some type. And I bet if you look at the novice and recreational family canyoneers you will find about 75% are using an 8 of some type. I'm not saying using one device or the other makes you a pro, just something I've noticed, both have pro's and cons.


Here is my take on the issue. I use both a Pirana and an ATC XP. I have both hanging on my belay loop often. I go back and forth between the two depending on friction needed, whether it is short or long, wet or dry. For the last rap in Heaps I will use the ATC XP with two biners. For the wet short stuff I like the Pirana --easy on and off with no dropping the device involved. But I really don't care for the regular 8's at all particularly for newbies using skinny ropes.

[Iceaxe]

I use both a Pirana and an ATC XP. I have both hanging on my belay loop

So that's why you make a cool brass clanking sound when you walk....

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

[Scott Card]

I use both a Pirana and an ATC XP. I have both hanging on my belay loop

So that's why you make a cool brass clanking sound when you walk....

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:Why did I know you would comment on that statement......

[AJ]

As Tom mentioned, the twists are (usually) only an issue when the 8 devices mix with ATC devices. Mark, you should have seen the snarls after the 200' rap in Granary. I've also found the twists to add time to some rope pulls, as you don't want those to snag on the pull. Thus, I usually use an ATC type device.

For wet canyons, I sometimes switch to 8's, as they are more tolerant for twists and such (and the rope is usually set on single line and the right distance; as well as the water is flipping it all around so the more tolerant device works well here.)

I highly recommend AGAINST a reverso or reversino. They get worn down quickly and can produce a sharp, knife-like edge. Have taken a dremmel tool to mine many times to reduce the knife edge.

I like the Jaws type devices (ATC XP, ATC Guide, Trango Jaws, etc), especially for beginners as you can pick the high friction side, or the low friction side - depending on circumstances. The jaws devices have more metal too, so they usually last longer. The ATC Guide also has other things you can do with it (auto locking belay, etc.)

YMMV,
A.J.

[hank moon]

So is it sad that I think I can name all these devices

No, that is not sad. What's sad is the obvious lack of wear on these sparkly new devices. Looks like folks aren't getting out much. Oh, wait...had to buy a shiny new doodad for B-Fest. Wouldn't be caught dead (wedged in a crack) with some beater ATC or shabby Pirana :haha:

[hank moon]

I highly recommend AGAINST a reverso or reversino. They get worn down quickly and can produce a sharp, knife-like edge. Have taken a dremmel tool to mine many times to reduce the knife edge.

x2 - speaking of the Reverso made of stamped metal.

The newer (forged? cast?) version (Reverso3) doesn't have that problem.

[AJ]

I highly recommend AGAINST a reverso or reversino. They get worn down quickly and can produce a sharp, knife-like edge. Have taken a dremmel tool to mine many times to reduce the knife edge.

x2 - speaking of the Reverso made of stamped metal.

The newer (forged? cast?) version (Reverso3) doesn't have that problem.

Didn't know they changed it. It's been a while since I bought mine (and wasn't planning on getting another based on the wear of the first one...) Thanks for the update Hank!

[shaggy125]

We once stuck a rope early in my canyoneering career because the last guy down knew this great way to keep the twists out of the rope while rapping double strand with his figure 8. He obviously rigged it opposite of what he was supposed to as after jugging up the rope there were about 200 twists at the top making pulling impossible. I've had a sour taste in my mouth for figure 8's ever since. I still don't let figure 8 users go last when rapping double strand, freaks me out every time.

I use an ATC, mostly cause that's what I'm used to. I can add friction, lock off, lower, etc... easily with it. Mark, just ask an ATC user how to lock off with it sometime. Here is a basic explanation of how I do it, but it's way easier to just show you. Basically squeeze the rappel side of the rope along with the big metal part of the device with your non braking hand. Then, with your braking hand, tie a mule hitch around one side of the bottom wire (the wire that runs through your belay loop, you know that's part of your atc) with the braking side of the rope. This will lock the rope in place. Next, tie an overhand knot (or whatever knot you feel like) around the rope below you with the loop you created. This will serve as a backup to make sure the mule hitch doesn't release after you let go of the rope with both hands. To release, just untie your safety knot, then give a sharp tug on the rappel side, the mule hitch unties, and you are back on rappel. Leg wrap works too, but kinda hurts if you're hanging for very long.

[Brian in SLC]

Then, with your braking hand, tie a mule hitch around one side of the bottom wire (the wire that runs through your belay loop, you know that's part of your atc) with the braking side of the rope.

You, uhh, tie off a mule knot to the "wire" on the ATC? Yikes.

I've used the carabiner spine or gone under the biner and back around topside to tie off above the device (which makes it easy to keep a brake hand on). Never heard of someone tying off to the wire. Methinks a bad idear. Have to think about it more, though.

Also gone around the body and tied off front side (called by a friend, "the bubba hitch). Effective and easy to keep brake hand on as well.

-Brian in SLC

[shaggy125]

You, uhh, tie off a mule knot to the "wire" on the ATC? Yikes.

That's how I was taught, maybe it is a bad idear, glad I posted. Actually, maybe I should actually do it, I was just playing it through my head thinking I tie around the wire of the ATC, maybe I actually do go through the biner. I'm at work now but maybe next time I'm at the gym or something I'll actually do it and make sure. Sorry if I posted bad info.

[taatmk]

I use an ATC-XP. Of my two sons who are frequently with me in the field, the older one uses a standard figure 8 and the younger uses a Pirana. We earh swear by the device of choice. Between the three of us, we have those options....

[ratagonia]

You, uhh, tie off a mule knot to the "wire" on the ATC? Yikes.

That's how I was taught, maybe it is a bad idear, glad I posted. Actually, maybe I should actually do it, I was just playing it through my head thinking I tie around the wire of the ATC, maybe I actually do go through the biner. I'm at work now but maybe next time I'm at the gym or something I'll actually do it and make sure. Sorry if I posted bad info.

I like going down through the harness belay loop then up and mule off... somewhere. Rope on belay loop adds a lot of friction, making the whole thing easier to execute, but, as BDC pointed out previously, the rope on belay loop also can abrade the belay loop, if allowed to slip.

I'm sure the Shagster went through the biner and up and muled around the rope coming down and one of the ATC wires. At least, that is what makes sense to me.

T :moses: