Antelope Canyon RIP

[Iceaxe]

As you all know bolts in canyoneering have always been a hot topic.... I always have a giggle when someone says "can't you just ignore the bolts?"

Well the short answer is "yes".... but the real answer is "no".... to me they are as offensive as the stairs now in Antelope Canyon, which I guess you could just ignore.... but I'm not exactly sure how you would actually do it.... Bolts or stairs.... I see no real differance.... any argument that you can make for bolts holds true for the stairs in Antelope Canyon....

Anyhoo.... here are a few pictures of what Antelope Canyon looks like these days.... When I first descended the slot in the mid 80's there were no stairs, only a few adventurous tourists, and the canyon was truly a special place at that time. Now it is managed more along the lines of a Disneyland....

The Antelope Canyon I knew is dead.... I miss the old Antelope.... RIP...

:soapbox:

[peakbagger1971]

I think that it is important that they make some few of the canyons accessable to more people who could not see them otherwise. I agree that I would hate to see stairs in most of the canyons but I don't have a problem with sharing a few of them.

[Jaxx]

that is a bummer. I agree with peakbagger though, I'm willing to share. I never planned on seeing antelope canyon due to it's already "disneyland" like management, mabey now I can take the kids through. Mabey the new game will be doing antelope canyon without touching the stairs!

[canyonguru]

well look and the bright side instead of bolts you not have hand rails to tie your anchors off to. you can rapel down next to all the pansies the need the stairs. :haha:

[theking648]

one part of me says... well it's ok to do a few canyons for the public... but the other part says. IT'S AN ADVENTURE... stairs??? srsly get off the sofa learn to rappel and work your fat ass off.

Good luck getting a beautiful shot with STAIRS in the picture.

[Sombeech]

I always thought of Antelope as a major commercial tour anyways.

As long as they put a McDonalds down there, everybody wins.

[uintahiker]

Those pics make me sad. Slot canyons were never meant to have stairs in them. I've seen some beautiful shots of Antelope, but it was never meant to be somewhere that "anyone" could go.

[Don]

The good news is I just ticked something off the to-do list.
'cause I never want to see that, ever.

[snatch]

Think of the liability. Perhaps a group o' tourist will be on the last set of stairs when a flash flood rolls in and wipes them all out. Who will be responsible? Surely the tour group will sign waivers but come on, the ranger led them up canyon, the group relied on the ranger's expertise, clearly it's a controlled environment given the modifications, clearly the tour would not have been there without the stairs, it's not as if the tour group assumes any risk climbing up a set of stairs. Wishful thinking or Darwinism? Perhaps natural selection will prevail and the canyon will return to its original state.

[snatch]

P.S. Where's the Sierra Club when they're really needed? They ran like Antelope was Glen Canyon. Pussies. (!)

[bruce from bryce]

Hey give the Navajos a break. For 30 years the 'white man' had the exclusive contract for guiding people through 'upper' antelope canyon. The lower canyon was open to anyone, consider yourself lucky Ice.

Then came the disastrous flash flood that killed all those French people. So they took back was rightfully theirs and constructed the stairs so that those less able to climb and rappel could experience the canyon on their own.

I visited the upper canyon in 2008 and was glad that I did. Was it crowded, noisy and very much unlike what we do on any weekend of canyoneering? Yes, but you could still see the beauty within that very short slot.

However, I did disagree with the guide who said it was the most beautiful slot canyon he had ever seen, and he said that he had been in over 100 canyons as both a guide and a youngster growing up in that area. I mentioned a couple of our canyons and he had no idea what I was talking about.

So give our Indian friends a little clap of the hands for helping themselves to a piece of the tourist pie.

[ratagonia]

However, I did disagree with the guide who said it was the most beautiful slot canyon he had ever seen, and he said that he had been in over 100 canyons as both a guide and a youngster growing up in that area.

Surely, Bruce al Bryce, you could concede that the Navajo guide would have expertise on his OPINION of the best canyon HE had seen...

:moses:

[snatch]

Hey give the Navajos a break. For 30 years the 'white man' had the exclusive contract for guiding people through 'upper' antelope canyon.

Don't bring race into this. Antelope is pink, just like the Sierra club. Why don't we throw a bingo hall and a firecracker stand into Antelope as well? After that we'll raise a toll booth on every road that crosses the Trail of Tears and pay royalties on cornucopias until the end of time. Oh yea, I forgot I said we shouldn't bring race into this. Give me a break. :roll:

We cannot use race or the follies of the past to justify the degradation of the present. Leave nature natural and keep the toll roads out of the back country. :rockon:

[RedMan]

Hey its their canyon, if they want snow cone stands so be it.

[snatch]

Hey its their canyon, if they want snow cone stands so be it.

...just like pimping your 12 year old daughter is kosher.

[canyonguru]

Now a Snow Cone stand that could make some money. Best idea i have heard all thread.

[Don]

Actually a snow cone does sound good...

[sarahlizzy]

So that's like a 1AI, then?

[trackrunner]

Actually a snow cone does sound good...

Got my snow cone fix at the RSL game last night. Half Tiger's blood, half Pina Colada.

Snow cones ends the bolt war and brings canyoneers together


So that's like a 1AI, then?

It's a class 3 canyon with modifiacations so it's like a class 1 hike.

[sarahlizzy]

Thinking about this - I grew up near the Peak District National Park in the UK. There are extensive cave systems there. A lot of them are popular with cavers, some have been modified so that they're accessible as show caves, which the general public can go into. In some cases, this includes concrete steps, etc., so perhaps similar in kind, if not in scale, to the route up to Angels' Landing. There's also electric lighting and so on.

Perhaps having a few of these caves accessible to the general public using non-specialist equipment is no bad thing - it gives people in general the ability to appreciate that kind of environment, at least to an extent. Of course, some of these caves go on for miles and it's only the first few hundred yards which have been "touristified" - the cavers start from the end of the tourist bit and then continue on with their equipment and technical skills.

Perhaps this sort of modification is serving a similar need. It makes a small amount of stuff accessible to the general public, and might be OK as long as it doesn't start a trend?

Or, to think of it in terms of climbing, perhaps this sort of thing is like the Angels Landing trail - a route up a mountain that the general public wouldn't otherwise be able to ascend. The bolted canyons in Zion that everyone knows would then be like sports climbing, and the all-natural canyons would be the "trad" routes.

This is probably just me rambling though.

[Jaxx]

...just like pimping your 12 year old daughter is kosher.

wait, wut?
Are you referring to polygamists? Are you trying to jab at Mormons? I don't think Redman is Mormon. Or are you jabbing at him because his name is Redman?

[Iceaxe]

No... what Snatch is saying is just because some people pimp out their children that does not make it right.....

I honestly found Snatch's remark to be one of the best anti-bolt (anti-stairway?) remarks I have heard yet.... just because someone placed a bolt does not make it right....

:rockon:

[Sombeech]

...just like pimping your 12 year old daughter is kosher.

Only if she's hot and actually worth the money.

[uintahiker]

Just showed the bolted pics to my wife. She didn't even want to look at them. Sad sad sad!

[rcwild]

As you all know bolts in canyoneering have always been a hot topic.... I always have a giggle when someone says "can't you just ignore the bolts?"

Well the short answer is "yes".... but the real answer is "no".... to me they are as offensive as the stairs now in Antelope Canyon, which I guess you could just ignore.... but I'm not exactly sure how you would actually do it.... Bolts or stairs.... I see no real differance.... any argument that you can make for bolts holds true for the stairs in Antelope Canyon....

Anyhoo.... here are a few pictures of what Antelope Canyon looks like these days.... When I first descended the slot in the mid 80's there were no stairs, only a few adventurous tourists, and the canyon was truly a special place at that time. Now it is managed more along the lines of a Disneyland....

The Antelope Canyon I knew is dead.... I miss the old Antelope.... RIP...

When you did Antelope back in the 80s, did you ignore the bolts that were there?

[bruce from bryce]

Ratagonia said: "Surely, Bruce al Bryce, you could concede that the Navajo guide would have expertise on his OPINION of the best canyon HE had seen... "

I would'va had the man been Navajo. But no he was as white as the both of us.

[bruce from bryce]

Hey Snatch I bet you truly believe in your heart since none of your relatives have raped and pillaged the land of the Americans that were here long before the white man, that you have no guilt in the matter.

Want to see how we continue to treat these people: http://www.greatdreams.com/BureauofIndianAffairs.htm

I WAS working for the National Park Service when this happened and believe me it is difficult to conduct business without internet. But after reading about how our wonderful people appointed to oversea the Bureau of Indian Affairs were handling their $$, I know it was the correct thing to do.

Everyone one of us should feel the guilt of the past deeds of our leaders.

bruce from bryce

P.S. Why did you mention a 12 year old girl?

[Bo_Beck]

I'm pissed that Bass and others created trails into the Grand Canyon. Totally destroyed my ability to have a "wilderness experience" into a once primitive place.

For the bolt debate!? Not for bolts unless necessary. As for Antelope Canyon? I might just be glad there are ladders when my body fails me and I would like to see natures magic even though I'm unable to exert the energy to downclimb, upclimb, etc., etc. Americans can buy up land, til it up, build vast enterprises all in the name of capitalism. Seems like it's a right we have? Are there exclusions to this right? American Indians? Are they not Americans?

[Iceaxe]

When you did Antelope back in the 80s, did you ignore the bolts that were there?

I have never ignored bolts.... just the way in which I view bolts has changed....

Kinda like the kids now days with their low riding jeans.... if you are 18 it's cool, and if you are more mature it's retarded.... but either way it's kinda hard to ignore....

Who knows.... maybe one day if I become an old, overweight, alcohol soaked, out of shape canyoneer I'll think bolts are cool..... and maybe when I'm 80 I'll think stairways in Antelope are cool.... and maybe I'll start low riding my jeans....

:cool2:

[Jaxx]

No... what Snatch is saying is just because some people pimp out their children that does not make it right.....

Thanks. I was very confused there.

[trackrunner]

Are there exclusions to this right? American Indians? Are they not Americans?

I'm goint to stay out of the bolt war. It gets me all fired up. But Bo thanks for this quote.

:cool2:

[ratagonia]

Ratagonia said: "Surely, Bruce al Bryce, you could concede that the Navajo guide would have expertise on his OPINION of the best canyon HE had seen... "

I would'va had the man been Navajo. But no he was as white as the both of us.

Perhaps I should generalize, B al B, into:

I accept that each person is an expert on his OWN opinion.

Tom :moses:

[oldno7]

When you did Antelope back in the 80s, did you ignore the bolts that were there?

I have never ignored bolts.... just the way in which I view bolts has changed....

Kinda like the kids now days with their low riding jeans.... if you are 18 it's cool, and if you are more mature it's retarded.... but either way it's kinda hard to ignore....

Who knows.... maybe one day if I become an old, overweight, alcohol soaked, out of shape canyoneer I'll think bolts are cool..... and maybe when I'm 80 I'll think stairways in Antelope are cool.... and maybe I'll start low riding my jeans....

:cool2:

Would love to see your pictures of this canyon when it was a technical route. I don't believe I've seen any.

[oval]

Well, since it's not wheelchair accessible, what's the point? If you are going to go to that extent, shouldn't you at least make it accessible to people with real disabilities? Kind of defeats the group that would benefit the most from such a thing. I say this coming from a perspective of a person who works with the full spectrum of disabled folks, trying to help them work and get around in the real world.

That's a real shame, imo

[RedMan]

Hey its their canyon, if they want snow cone stands so be it.

...just like pimping your 12 year old daughter is kosher.

Are you serious? You equate putting ladders and stairs as the moral equivalent of pimping out a 12 year old. Really?

[ratagonia]

Hey its their canyon, if they want snow cone stands so be it.

...just like pimping your 12 year old daughter is kosher.

Are you serious? You equate putting ladders and stairs as the moral equivalent of pimping out a 12 year old. Really?

Snatch is to "Canyoneering" as James is to "The Political Arena"

:moses:

[R]

I am actually divided/conflicted about this. 1: I don't like to see nature scarred or ruined for convenience sake. 2. There is no chance at all my wife could see a canyon like this without stairs.

Abby and I hike as respectfully of nature as anyone, and have no desire to leave more than footprints in the sand. But she suffers rheumatoid arthritis that can, at times, be blindingly painful, and limits her to established trails that require absolutely no scrambling. I would one day like her to see Antelope Canyon. I can't put her in my backpack, so stairs are the only way.

If, on the other hand, the only way for someone like Abby to see certain sites is to scar them, no one understands more than she does about the importance of preserving and protecting the natural world around us.

So, yes, conflicted.

[Scott P]

Hey give the Navajos a break.

I agree. While I don't agree with putting stairs or over bolting a bunch of canyons on public land, the Navajo Reservation is not public land. What they have done to Antelope Canyon is no different than if anyone else did the same thing on their own private property.

We are lucky that the Navajo's even let us hike/sightsee on the Reservation. Many reservations don't. What percentages of private land owners around even let sightseers visit their property? It's not that many. In many parts of the local mountains you will see "private land/no trespassing" signs.

Anyway, I too wish Antelope Canyon wasn't staired up, but it's also not my decision. I'm glad they kept it open to the public.

Antelope Canyon is a tourist attraction period, so those who don't like it can visit another few thousand canyons on the plateau.

I also thing it's a valid example and a good original post though. It seems to me that Antelope is a good example of what canyons (on public land) should not become. Some canyons in Zion for example, have class 2-3 terrain bolted.


Would love to see your pictures of this canyon when it was a technical route. I don't believe I've seen any.

If interested, Kelsey's old versions of the Lake Powell book have such photos.

[snatch]

Hey Snatch I bet you truly believe in your heart since none of your relatives have raped and pillaged the land of the Americans that were here long before the white man, that you have no guilt in the matter.

Want to see how we continue to treat these people: http://www.greatdreams.com/BureauofIndianAffairs.htm

I WAS working for the National Park Service when this happened and believe me it is difficult to conduct business without internet. But after reading about how our wonderful people appointed to oversea the Bureau of Indian Affairs were handling their $$, I know it was the correct thing to do.

Everyone one of us should feel the guilt of the past deeds of our leaders.

bruce from bryce

P.S. Why did you mention a 12 year old girl?

Dear Chief High Horse:
Twelve year old girl is analogous, I hope you have the intelligence to see that. Why do you bring ask?

I have fifty pages compiled on the extortion of Native Americans through the BIA and I've followed the current law suit vs Dept of Interior closely.

I know my ancestors raped and pillaged the Native American's. In fact, my great-grandfather dug up a an Indian's grave for a jade headdress. I do feel remorse for the plight of the Native Americans which begain the moment white-man stepped foot on this continent. Get off your high horse and quit feeling entitled to lecture me on the well documented follies of the past. I can read.

My point is simple - just b/c one get's F'ed, one shouldn't F others, canyons included. The end.

[hank moon]

WTF is James?

James is a troll that dwells in the Political Forum.

[ratagonia]

WTF is James?

James is a troll that dwells in the Political Forum.

but I must say, sir Snatch, you channeled his style MOST succesfully!

Tom

[snatch]

I wiped my previous entry. It was a bit crass. Sorry Tom.
For future reference, what is proper troll etiquette?

[Iceaxe]

For future reference, what is proper troll etiquette?

This might be opening a can of worms.... but here is the general idea.....

A wicked sense of humor and a rapier wit are admired and appreciated on Bogley. Unimaginative name calling and lackluster personal attacks are frowned upon.

In other words

[uintahiker]

I did some looking around, and as of a book published in 2005 (Canyoneering Arizona) the stairs and ladders were up in Antelope. Seems to me like there's a lot of us that haven't been in the last 4 years! :roflol: :roflol: :roflol: :twisted:

[Sombeech]

If any of you have been down to Havasupai, you'll know it's one of the most gorgeous canyons around.

The path down there though is littered with trash; gatorade bottles, plastic bags, and the occasional piece of furniture.

This is a shame, you wonder who would do such a thing. Then you witness for yourself somebody throw their empty Coke can off to the wayside from atop their horse as you are hiking down.

The Havasupai Indians own the canyon, and they do with this as they please. I am grateful though that they still let us down there for a small fee.

[ratagonia]

A smart and clever troll usually serves a useful purpose in pointing out the absurdity of a certain situation, or the fact that the emperor has no clothes.

:five:

Sometimes I worry about you, Shane! How'd ya know I was sitting here plum nakid, swillin beer and scratchin up a storm? Guess I otta close the blinds once in a while. :eek2:

Adding an emoticon or two helps mitigate the sting out of any witty comment. :rockon:

T :moses:

[snatch]

I'll even throw an apology to high horse himself. Native Americans were ravaged, no doubt about it.

"Perhaps I mispoke." I meant to imply that I like my canyons natural. Sorry for the metaphor, it was only that. :feelgood:

[PQuintana]

There were rickety wooden and aluminum ladders when I got sucked down the canyon in August 12th 1997. I watched one float bye in the Flood. The bolted ones might have been a different story for some who were standing on them when the flood started. Those people did not make it through the flood. I also do understand what you mean by your original post, takes away from what was created by the floods. I still have a piece from that wooden ladder. I like some of the others posts people and what you all have to say. Great topic. "Disneyland" lol



"Let Your Dreams Guide You"
P.Quintana

[ratagonia]

There were rickety wooden and aluminum ladders when I got sucked down the canyon in August 12th 1997. I watched one float bye in the Flood. The bolted ones might have been a different story for some who were standing on them when the flood started. Those people did not make it through the flood. I also do understand what you mean by your original post, takes away from what was created by the floods. I still have a piece from that wooden ladder. I like some of the others posts people and what you all have to say. Great topic. "Disneyland" lol



"Let Your Dreams Guide You"
P.Quintana

Welcome to the Bogley, Poncho.

Tom

[wasatchghost]

My thinking is that if we can get all the tourists distracted by easily accessed canyons we can keep them away from the canyons we really value. It's a shame that a canyon so beautiful as Antelope got "staired", but I like to think that in a sense it is protecting many other canyons from the destructive habits of ignorant tourists. Same goes for bolting canyons. I don't support bolts marring up the walls of Utah's canyons, but it seems logical to sacrifice one or two canyons for the sake of preserving a hundred others.

[Iceaxe]

My thinking is that if we can get all the tourists distracted by easily accessed canyons we can keep them away from the canyons we really value.

That argument never seems to work, in fact it usually has the opposite effect in that those who visit Antelope want more slots dumbed down to their level so they can easily visit those canyons also....

....which is really the essence of the bolt debate.

YMMV :cool2:

[Iceaxe]

Great topic. "Disneyland" lol

Welcome to Bogley and thanks for posting. :2thumbs:

For those that don't know Quintana is the man that survived the infamous flash flood in Antelope Canyon (http://climb-utah.com/Powell/flash_antelope.htm).

[wasatchghost]

That argument never seems to work, in fact it usually has the opposite effect in that those who visit Antelope want more slots dumbed down to their level so they can easily visit those canyons also....

....which is really the essence of the bolt debate.

YMMV :cool2:
Good point. Theoretically their interest in doing more canyons would lead to their desire to learn more about doing it the right way, but unfortunately it's obvious that isn't happening :haha:

[deagol]

....... What they have done to Antelope Canyon is no different than if anyone else did the same thing on their own private property.

We are lucky that the Navajo's even let us hike/sightsee on the Reservation. ......

Hello, new poster here.

I just wanted to offer another respectful opinion on these two points.

The first one seems a bit contradictory to the whole "borrow the land from your children" ethic that gets touted, regardless of race.

Second point: I don't think it's luck as much as the fact that it (Antelope Canyon) is a huge tourist draw and therefore brings in money. Even without the steep price of admission, this attraction does bring money into the Rez.

I've done the lower section of Antelope (from the lake up to the dry-fall) but have never seen the corkscrew section. The ladder makes me conflicted, almost not wanting to go after all. Ironically I had planned to pay the fee and see the famous section this fall, but now not sure......

[peakbaggers]

We were there 2 1/2 years ago to do the photography thing. That's mainly what Antelope has become - a destination for every photographer who wants one of those beautiful canyon shots of their own. The stairs, ladders, etc were all placed there as a result of the 1997 flood incident. In fact, the Navajo's have placed several other safety devices as well, including nets stationed in boxes along the rim that can be lowered into the canyon in nearly seconds to allow people to climb out in the event of another flood - and there will be one some day. (Wonder what a major flood would do to some of those stairs.) As for trying to climb around the stairs & ladders, nearly impossible the way they have some placed. It is land that belongs to the Navajo's though and they certainly can do what they deem best, however, it is nothing more than a touroid canyon now. Never had a chance to visit it without all the additions. From what we saw, it looks like it would have been an entertaining little slot.

[Iceaxe]

I've done the lower section of Antelope (from the lake up to the dry-fall) but have never seen the corkscrew section. The ladder makes me conflicted, almost not wanting to go after all. Ironically I had planned to pay the fee and see the famous section this fall, but now not sure......

FYI: If you want pictures on par with Antelope in a slot canyon you have all to yourself try visiting High Spur.

High Spur
http://climb-utah.com/Roost/highspur.htm

As an interested bystander in the world of photography I fail to see the challenge of Antelope any more. You walk down the stairs and set up your camera at the same spot thousands before you have and wait for the correct light. I fail to see any artistic genius coming out of Antelope these days. Outside of having the standard portfolio shot of Antelope I can see little reason to visit.

[UtahAdventureGuide]

FIXED

44704

[PQuintana]

Thanks Tom and IceAxe,

Much appreciated guys. Infamous, here's a clip for some of you who don't know about the flood.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-QgjNvafIw

Or you can look it up on youtube under Flash Flood Antelope Canyon August 12th 1997

"Let Your Dreams Guide You"
Pancho Quintana

[Scott Card]

Pancho, thanks so much for posting that. What an amazing story. Welcome to the mad house known as Bogley. :haha:

[Felicia]

Welcome Poncho. Thank you for sharing your story.

[CarpeyBiggs]

that is some seriously intense stuff. thanks for sharing your story pancho. wow.

[accadacca]

Thanks. :popcorn: