Need some input on: When God intervenes on your behalf.

[Deathcricket]

I'm scared this is going to get nasty, and that is not my intention. So if the mods want to toss this in the rubbish bin when personal attacks start flying I understand completly.

So I've been struggling with my religious views lately and trying to think about how I want to raise my son. "Instruct his ideals" if you will. I was raised in a hypocritical christian environment which basically means "do whatever you want during the week, god will forgive you on Sunday" and want nothing to do with that. So you could say I'm agnostic now I guess. I don't pretend to know one way or the other or have some perfect truth I need to spread around.

Anyways I'll bring up an instance and would like your input on this. There have been several but for the sake of argument will only mention one.

Situation: Little child runs into the street, car coming at 40 mph see's child in time, slams on breaks very hard and swerves. Misses child completely and doesn't even damage their car by crashing. My mom tells me story ending with "And god was really watching over that situation, he must really have big plans for that child".

I'm sure you guys have all heard stories where someone claims that god intervened in their life in some for some reason or fashion. But my natural response to her was "Oh so if god didn't have a use for the kid, he would have just let him splat?" And of course she starts a big long-winded conversation about how god has a plan for us and we can't begin to understand the nuances of it. And that I just need to have some

[DOSS]

Dear inhabitants of planet 234,586,981,458,900.3 V2 (you have named your planet Earth),

I am writing you this letter that I will place onto your internet so that it can propagate my apology to you. Let me first start with explaining how all of this happened, when I was in primary school in my elementary physics class we were assigned to create a miniaturized life support unit mine was designated by my instructor as planet 234,586,981,458,900.3 V2 (V2 due to the fact that I dropped it killing all of the lizard creatures that had grown from the primordial ooze that all creatures grow from) I will call it Earth henceforth as that is easier for you to refer to. I was supposed to terminate the project as soon as self aware life had formed VIA the evolutionary process but I had put the planet at the top of my closet and just plain forgot about it until a few hundred years ago your time.
When I found Earth again while I was cleaning my room I was amazed that you humans had created cities and even language (I was a little disappointed that some of the people had decided that everything that happened was due to some imaginary creature instead of the laws of physics and the cosmos but as it was only a primary school project I figured I shouldn

[RedMan]

It sounds to me like you know the answer.
Try not to let people with strong religious views influence your life too much.
My experience is that they really don't have a grip on their own.
The people that feel a need to enlighten you are always the worst.

Just remember that religion and faith are different things. One is created by men with a distinct agenda.

[Last Child]

Well I'll throw out my 2 cents. Of course you already know that I don't believe in god per se and also consider myself an agnostic.

I can give you what I was taught as a Mormon lad.

God is all knowing and already knows the future of everything that is going to happen or that has ever happend.

We are all born with the "light of Christ" or a conscience and at the age of 8 one can be blessed with the promptings of the holy ghost. This always confused me some but I came to understand that the holy ghost was more of a "super charged" conscience or someone to help us hear our conscience better. I worried a great deal about this when I left the church because I was taught that I would no longer have or receive those promptings. I'm glad that turned out to be wrong.

God does not intervene with our personal lives other than through the promptings of our conscience and holy ghost. If he were to do so that would remove us from the over all plan of being here to be tested and we could or no longer would have free agency. It would also give us an "out" as we would not have to take responsibility for our actions.

In a nutshell that is what I was taught and what we were taught to teach in the mission field.

I have a huge problem with people thinking and saying things like "god was watching over us and protected us" or whatever. Because I believe that kind of attitude does give one a sense of false superiority and in fact does remove all sense of self responsibility. We are all solely responsible for our own actions and no one or nothing else. I think the world would be a better place if everyone took full responsibility for all of their actions. Whether they be good or bad. Quit blaming Satan for all of the bad and giving credit to god for all of the good. You did it. Now own it.

The guy in the car swerved to miss the kid. End of story. He is fully responsible for that action and should get 100% credit and the kid is fully responsible for playing in the street. Just as the parents are fully responsible for not paying attention and letting him play in the street.

People only give credit to god for the good deeds and actions of people. Never do they give him/her credit for the bad. If so then you have to give credit to god for the kid in the street also.

I once blamed God for some bad shit in my life and it damned near killed me. Once I learned it's all up to me and only me... the whole world opened up and finally made sense.

Give credit and take credit where credit is due. Right here within oneself.

[Deathcricket]

2 great replies and a joke. Loving the responses. Thanks guys.

:five:

[DOSS]

2 great replies and a joke. Loving the responses. Thanks guys.

:five:

I don't appreciate that you say that my personal Belief system is a Joke...

:hail2thechief: ~~~HAIL TAD~~~

[Don]

Ok, I understand that god not interfering in life does not disprove god.
My question then is; if god does not interfere in life, does not provide some benefit to a believer, why bother believing in him?

[DOSS]

Ok, I understand that god not interfering in life does not disprove god.
My question then is; if god does not interfere in life, does not provide some benefit to a believer, why bother believing in him?

its all for what happens after you die at that point.. the benefit is they will continue existing in some form of "Afterlife"

I would rather live for living than live for dieing

[Deathcricket]

[quote]Jesus said to her,

[Iceaxe]

The object of life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting, 'Holy Shit, What a Ride!!!'

[JP]

So if the mods want to toss this in the rubbish bin when personal attacks start flying I understand completly.
The mods should be tossing out the attackers :haha:

[Sombeech]

So are you wanting us to tell you how to raise your kid? Or would you like an explanation on how God works?

I'm not sure which topic would be easier.

[RedMan]

This reminds me of the South Park cartoon where all the dead people are waiting to find out of they are getting into heaven.

They are told that only the Mormons are getting in an all the rest are going to hell for choosing the wrong religion. Its funny as hell.

Now ask yourself this. "When the diverse peoples of the world that are not members of my church arrive at the Heavens Gate will they be denied entry simply because they died wearing the wrong underwear, or didn't face mecca and pray enough or forgot to pay enough tithing or give offerings at the temple?"

I find it humorous that people believe that there is a God that will condemn your child to hell because YOU joined the wrong religion and the child simply followed the parents lead like 99% of all families operate.

Along the same lines your concern about God getting involved at the the Micro level of your life is based on a particular religious belief. Plenty of religions do not believe God operates this way. Of course there are those religions that the believe you need to be killed for your bad choice of church to attend.

Interestingly enough it seems all religions are convinced they are the only TRUE believers, the only ones that actually know what God wants them to do and how God wants them to live.

In the end you simply need to look inside. If it rings true to you, then its good. You have the ability to know what's right and what's religious BS.
If you really need someone else to do this for you then you need to spend some time thinking about what you really believe and learn to trust yourself.

[theking648]

i don't think praying to god to keep you safe will keep you safe. life is way to short to sit in church and listen to people tell you how you should live.

I'm going to do what i want, and have as much fun as possible before i die. hopefully i don't live to be 90 years old because i'll have to kill my self.

so if i fall when i'm in a canyon i cant blame it on god. :lol8: it's my own dumbass fault... unless jacob pushed me. :roflol:

[Sombeech]

He's not a Genie that grants wishes for crying out loud.

[rockgremlin]

So, you want someone to preach to you? You want religion do you? :haha:

[Sombeech]

I just wish God would show me more miracles if he really wanted me to believe he exists.





....and they've gotta be miracles that I'd like.




....preferably large amounts of money



....or hot sluts



....and they can't be proven to be coincidences on the internet. :haha:

[rockgremlin]

In all seriousness, I do believe He exists. I don't believe He intervenes. I agree that if he intervenes for one then he would have to intervene for us all (in the spirit of fair play). I have three kids. Why would I physically act to save the life of one but not the other? It defies all logic to think that way.

[hank moon]

In all seriousness, I do believe He exists. I don't believe He intervenes. I agree that if he intervenes for one then he would have to intervene for us all (in the spirit of fair play). I have three kids. Why would I physically act to save the life of one but not the other? It defies all logic to think that way.

"Intervention" - what could that be when God is all-knowing and (by some reckoning) has a plan for everyone? There can be no intervention. Everything that happens (or doesn't) is part of the plan.

Of course, there are many different "Gods" out there - 'bout as many as people, though believers and their views of God can be categorized. A Deist, for instance, would not generally accept divine intervention as part of reality, whereas a Pentecostal probably would. Any perceived intervention is obviously subject to human interpretation as He doesn't tend to leave "God was here" graffiti behind...

[cookiecutter]

In the end you simply need to look inside. If it rings true to you, then its good. You have the ability to know what's right and what's religious BS.
If you really need someone else to do this for you then you need to spend some time thinking about what you really believe and learn to trust yourself.


I'll agree with RedMan here. If you ask me, I'd tell you to be LDS...because it works for me. However, many of my good friends are not LDS and it works for them. All great people, many with different faiths, and we all hang out and have a good time. We pray before we hit up a canyon, snowmachine, camp, etc.. and whether they believe in it or not they participate out of respect. Likewise, when we climb to the top of a mountain and my buddy says, "this is my heaven, this is my church right here." I smile and say, I could get into a religion like this. For me, religion is a top priority just behind my family, but if religion gets in the way of treatin' others decently then its gone to far. Like RedMan, I doubt you'll find any sort of religion on an internet forum, so go out and experiment with what feels right to you. Make a choice, or not, and be cool with what everyone else chooses to believe in.

[Last Child]

Of course, there are many different "Gods" out there...

True and actually as the Mormons teach...

"As man is now, God once was. As God is now, man may become".

Becoming all knowing and creating our own worlds and our own spiritual children is the goal we are shooting for.

[devo_stevo]

In the end you simply need to look inside. If it rings true to you, then its good. You have the ability to know what's right and what's religious BS.
If you really need someone else to do this for you then you need to spend some time thinking about what you really believe and learn to trust yourself.


I'll agree with RedMan here. If you ask me, I'd tell you to be LDS...because it works for me. However, many of my good friends are not LDS and it works for them. All great people, many with different faiths, and we all hang out and have a good time. We pray before we hit up a canyon, snowmachine, camp, etc.. and whether they believe in it or not they participate out of respect. Likewise, when we climb to the top of a mountain and my buddy says, "this is my heaven, this is my church right here." I smile and say, I could get into a religion like this. For me, religion is a top priority just behind my family, but if religion gets in the way of treatin' others decently then its gone to far. Like RedMan, I doubt you'll find any sort of religion on an internet forum, so go out and experiment with what feels right to you. Make a choice, or not, and be cool with what everyone else chooses to believe in.
Well said, oh thou cutter of the cookie. :2thumbs:

[James_B_Wads2000]

Hey Cricket,

I have your address and I will be sending over two clean cut young men that can answer all your questions... :haha:

It only makes sense that now that you live in Utah that you become a Mormon. :nod:

'Beech, will you back me up on this?




James

[Ih8grvty]

So are you wanting us to tell you how to raise your kid? Or would you like an explanation on how God works?

I'm not sure which topic would be easier.


Raising the kid would be easier.

I can only say what I have done.
I never introduced them to god. that is something they found on their own. I never discouraged it, when they asked me I told them I do not believe. They made their own choice based on what they found out on their own.
Its not my job to tell them what they can and can not believe, atleast when we talk of something that can not be proved, or disproved.

One is about to be 19, he has yet to make up his mind, one is 16, he decided it was a crock, the last is 6, he has yet to get in to any of it or bring it up.

[Deathcricket]

In all seriousness, I do believe He exists. I don't believe He intervenes. I agree that if he intervenes for one then he would have to intervene for us all (in the spirit of fair play). I have three kids. Why would I physically act to save the life of one but not the other? It defies all logic to think that way.

This is the kinda response I was looking for, thanks bro. Thats like my thinking exactly, but I was hoping to hear the other side of the argument.

I must have phrased my question wrong in the beginning, I wasn't looking for a religion, hehe. I was specifically asking if people think that god intervenes in their life and why he would do such a thing, no matter what specific religion you belong to. I was thinking perhaps since people feel they have a personal relationship with god, that they also feel like "he's on their side" or he wants to do "stuff" for them. Besides my mom, I hear all kinds of stories where people give credit to god for saving them, rescueing them, helping them win a boxing match, win a football game, etc to infinity. I was kinda expecting to hear a "and if god didn't do this, I would be dead right now" story with some points of why it happened.

And then the whole bringing my kid into this. For me this is pretty much the reason I bunked religion in the first place and I don't want to confuse my kid like I was growing up. Probably should not have brought him into the equation I guess, but to me it's relevant, probably not the conversation though. But to be honest, thats really my whole motivation right now in trying to understand. I remember as a child 7 or 8 sitting in Sunday school and being told the story of Noah's ark. Being told that 2 or every single animal was on this ark. Thinking "there is over a million different species of animals on the planet, how did he even get 2 of every type of spider, and how could they walk across the entire planet to get into said ark?" And knowing in my heart that what the teacher was saying was total and complete BS. There are several instances of course.. just using one as an example

[Deathcricket]

Hey Cricket,

I have your address and I will be sending over two clean cut young men that can answer all your questions... :haha:

It only makes sense that now that you live in Utah that you become a Mormon. :nod:

'Beech, will you back me up on this?




James

Ahhh HAHAHA!! Ok that was funny, you totally got me there. The 2 oriental chicks that came by like 3 nights ago were super hot though. Could you send them by again? I've been trying to convince my wife to do a fouresome and they are just the ticket.

[DiscGo]

So, you want someone to preach to you? You want religion do you? :haha:
:haha: I did not expect that line coming from you. That was funny.


I love my religion, so I seldom skip a chance to preach it. Here is my view on both God and your son. I doubt most people will care to read my post or just mock what I say, but I love ya' DC and am happy to take the time to honestly address your questions.


God- As a Mormon I do not believe in straight Heaven & Hell. That whole concept is seriously flawed. The idea of all I have to do is barely be better than bad and I go to heaven is rediculous and if I am barely worse than good I go to hell is a tool to scare men into living better lives.

The Mormon Doctrine is that there are 3 "kingdoms" all varying in glory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degrees_of_glory
Joseph Smith (the first Prophet we have had in "Latter Days") said that if you could see the Telestial Kingdom (the worst of these 3 kingdoms) you will kill yourself right now to get there because it is so amazing.

So in short, we on Earth believe that dying is sad but in reality death is only sad for those of who are still alive that miss those who have gone on ahead.

So there certainly are times that God does intervene to protect people in this life (people can say what they want but I personally can attest to God intervening in my life and protecting me at several very different times) and there are some people who it is there trial to suffer or die and there reward is greater than anything we have experienced on Earth.

Your Son- My brother is not Mormon and in fact dislikes Mormons in general but he has told me several times that although he disagrees with the Mormon faith and doubts that there could be any one true religion (as the Mormons profess) he is grateful that he grew up as a member of the LDS Church because of the values that were in-stored in him. I strongly believe that religion should not be a means of scaring people into being better, or something we should do for appearance or the sake of others. Religion should teach us and inspire us to want to be better people and be more loving to those around us.


Church is almost always boring :), but it does enrich our lives when we follow the principles we are taught in church and as we serve others. I totally understand if religion isn't your thing, but as a parent I really would strongly recommend you find a means of helping your son understand the importance of serving others, and the obligation he has to do right by others.

[hank moon]

I agree that if he intervenes for one then he would have to intervene for us all (in the spirit of fair play).

I'll have to disagree on this concept. Examples of an unfair God are all over the Bible and certainly evident in the world. God plays fair? Nah...

Cricket, you need to talk to a diehard Catholic for the other view you seek. Intervention/intercession is a cornerstone of Catholicism! A few coins, a lit candle or two and >poof< God, or a saint, or your dead uncle gets busy in heaven working on your behalf.

[Deathcricket]

So there certainly are times that God does intervene to protect people in this life (people can say what they want but I personally can attest to God intervening in my life and protecting me at several very different times) and there are some people who it is there trial to suffer or die and there reward is greater than anything we have experienced on Earth.


See, now that actually sounds logical to me. So because you have a works based religion, and not a faith based (maybe not right terminology, no offense intended). God can intervene to save your life, giving you a longer period on this earth to "earn" a better reward when the time comes? Ahah! That is actually a sound argument, thanks for the response bro. Of course coming from you, I should have expected something logical and well thought out.

As far as my son, right now I'm kinda leaning towards Ih8grvty's response and just letting him figure the whole thing out himself, but giving him guidance on how I feel and letting him decide. I will probably use that approach for a lot of things. To be honest though, the more I see of Mormons and the more I talk to them, the more I like them. Who knows, maybe I'll even be one someday. :)

[Deathcricket]

Cricket, you need to talk to a diehard Catholic for the other view you seek. Intervention/intercession is a cornerstone of Catholicism! A few coins, a lit candle or two and >poof< God, or a saint, or your dead uncle gets busy in heaven working on your behalf.

Hehe! I've actually spent a little time in Catholic churches. Mostly because my friend was getting married and I had to learn the "steps" required for a wedding. Twice! To be honest their practices remind me of casting a spell in a video game. Have your prayer beads, spin around 3 times say a hail mary, full of grace... and poof your sins are forgiven. Which is similar to "get mandrake root, use hand gestures and say Vas Flam" fireball shoots out your hand. No offense to the catholics in here... I never heard that you could get some candles and have a dead relative get working for you though, very interesting.
:2thumbs:

[rockgremlin]

Here's a question for ya'll to chew on:

Billy is "righteous" and placed in grave danger but doesn't ask for God's help.

Bob is "unrighteous" and placed in a similar situation but DOES ask for help.

Does God save Billy, Bob, or both? Why?

I think if God intervenes at all, he frustrates the principle of freedom of choice. It's up to us to live with the consequences of our choices...good or bad. Unfortunately, some of us will have to live with the choices that others make...like being hit by a drunk driver...or having a bad President. :lol8:

[Last Child]

Not wanting to highjack this thread but this topic and a couple of replies here got me to do some self reflection today and I don

[hank moon]

[quote=Last Child]I am not living what I preach as far as live and let live and that therefore makes me a hypocrite. That is something that I despise and

[Austin Powers voice on] I now find myself being disgusted with

[cookiecutter]

As far as my son, right now I'm kinda leaning towards Ih8grvty's response and just letting him figure the whole thing out himself, but giving him guidance on how I feel and letting him decide. I will probably use that approach for a lot of things. To be honest though, the more I see of Mormons and the more I talk to them, the more I like them. Who knows, maybe I'll even be one someday. :)

One of my good friends had a father that let him and his siblings choose what they felt was right for them. My friend is now Mormon, as well as his brothers. Their father is not, but has supported them in what they decided was right for them, and they all have a great relationship. Just an example of the idea your thinking of.

And I apologize for not answering your original question in my last post. I completely believe that God intervenes in life. And, like DiscGo, there have been a couple of times in my life that have made this very clear to me. However, I like when you said Mormon's are work based, not faith based, although I believe we are very faith based, I think it is our faith that drives our work. Example: I recently climbed the Grand Teton. I said a quick prayer that I might be led to do the correct things to be as prepared as possible, I then got to work. Our group did everything in our power to become ready for the trip, we worked hard and made sure we had everything we could think of covered. Then, just before we started the hike, we said another quick prayer asking God that He might fill in where we might have missed something, or help where our judgement might not be quite sound. The trip was a success, and we have another quick prayer of thanks. I do not believe that I can be helped in ignorance. I believe its my job to do all I can to be prepared for whatever I may be doing, and God will help where I might have missed something. That is one thing I have gathered from being a Mormon for 18 years.



I am not living what I preach as far as live and let live and that therefore makes me a hypocrite.

Last Child, thats a good reminder for me. I usually get involved with the religious threads on other Forums I check up on, and have often got a little heated with others. And yet, in my last post I said to be cool with what others believe. Hypocrite? Yep. Thanks for putting me in check.

[DiscGo]

[quote="Last Child"]
So to all of you, religious or not I sincerely apologize for my out of line comments and behavior here and if I have offended you I hope that you will accept my apology. This topic will be the last time that I will participate in a religious and/or god related topic until I get my shit together concerning these matters. I am not living what I preach as far as live and let live and that therefore makes me a hypocrite.

Wow! This is not at all where I expected this thread to go. Way to be Last Child. I really do not consider you to be an offensive person at all but that is a very good hearted message.

[devo_stevo]

There is a lot of love in this room. Self realization and everything. This is great. I am always in need of a little introspection and I know that I totally suck at being a good person sometimes. I do try though and I have a ton of respect for anyone that does the same. It is far more important that you treat others with respect and are a good role model and example for your children than what church you go to (or don't go to for that matter) than anything else. My oldest daughter is turning 8 this coming weekend and it's fun/scary to see how she is growing up. It's interesting to see her go through things at school and other aspects of life that I went through. I only hope that I can do this whole dad thing without screwing her up. I'm sure that's what deathcricket is feeling and is what spurred this whole conversation. I believe it has been a constructive one and I appreciate the comments that everyone has had. It's good to know where everyone is coming from.

Deathcricket, I hope you feel better about things.

[R]

FWIW, I am an atheist (which is not a religion, look it up), and I am proud that our son has found a place in his church. It gives him community and structure and belonging. I don't even really care what he believes, as long as his eyes are open, which I think they are.

With all due respect to the theists in the room, I think that the idea of God intervening in our daily affairs, or suggesting that when He doesn't he has a plan for it all, is a very comforting way of dealing with the fact that life is short, chaotic, and painful sometimes. It's the same rationale as with the Kennedy assassination: no one wanted to believe that a box-stacker with a mail-order rifle could take down the most powerful person on earth, so they chose to believe that it was a higher power, be it the mafia, the CIA, the Wall Street Journal, whatever.

An oddly mistaken notion about atheists like me is that we don't have any reason to behave morally because there are no eternal consequences. In fact, atheists like me behave morally simply because it works.

"To you I'm an atheist. To God, I'm the loyal opposition." -Woody Allen

[uintahiker]

Interesting little thread here. I definitely believe in God and that he has a hand in our lives. Usually I see it when I've worked really hard for something and despite all of my efforts, I don't see any way possible for it to happen. Then a few things that are way above and beyond my control happen that make it possible.

Example- I'm attending grad school. I initally got turned down, but asked for them to review my application again. I got accepted. Then I got awarded a position as a student researcher, and after that a fellowship that paid half of my tuition for two semesters.

God exists. Most of the time he kicks in after all that you can do.

[RedMan]

Interesting little thread here. I definitely believe in God and that he has a hand in our lives. Usually I see it when I've worked really hard for something and despite all of my efforts, I don't see any way possible for it to happen. Then a few things that are way above and beyond my control happen that make it possible.

Example- I'm attending grad school. I initally got turned down, but asked for them to review my application again. I got accepted. Then I got awarded a position as a student researcher, and after that a fellowship that paid half of my tuition for two semesters.

God exists. Most of the time he kicks in after all that you can do.

Now see I don't get this at all. When the phone rang at the admissions office with a request to get your application reviewed it was not a booming voice of God on the phone, it was you. You did that. I give you credit for taking charge of your situation and making the request. I think you got accepted because they recognized you as the kind of take charge person they would like in their program, you didn't take no for an answer. You didn't simply sit at home an pray for them to change their minds.

Now if you had simply prayed for admission and the phone immediately rang with the admissions office saying they had made a mistake then you might qualify as a minor miracle :hail2thechief:

[RedMan]

My new prayer.

"Dear God/Budda/Alah/Big Cheese, my buddy Beech has lost his way. He needs a small reminder that you are the man. If you could throw a few bimbos his way I think it would do the trick. In fact make it three, two for Beech and I'll hold one in reserve so we don't have to bother you again."

[DiscGo]

Richard-
I find it very interesting that your son goes to church with you being an atheist. I find you to be more open minded than most atheists I know just by being okay with that.
For the record I have some really good friends who are atheists who are great people and I do not believe that not believing in God translates into being bad. I do believe however that most people nowadays rely too much on the Government or simply do not take their actions into account. I subscribe to the Ubuntu principle that we can only do right by ourselves when we do right by others. Religion is not the only place you can find that type of teaching but that is one of the main things I want to teach my child.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Ubuntu_%28philosophy%29

Anyway, major props to you Richard for being able to allow your child to have such an opposing view to your own.



God exists. Most of the time he kicks in after all that you can do.


:2thumbs: (I wish I could make that icon bigger) I really liked what you said.

[fouristhenewone]

An oddly mistaken notion about atheists like me is that we don't have any reason to behave morally because there are no eternal consequences. In fact, atheists like me behave morally simply because it works.


:clap: :clap: :clap:

This is one of the clearest statements I've heard in a long time. One thing I often struggle with, that many religious people seem to think that religion = morality. My morality isn't based on dogma, but humanity and nature.

As far as your question, dc - my advice - give your son good, heartfelt advice. you've clearly had some years to learn a few things about life, the universe, and everything. impart that knowledge. no need to force anything on anyone, don't get invested in your son believing what you believe.

as someone who grew up in a VERY religious household (raised JW), I had a period where I had a very rough separation from my own father because he did just that, and I pushed away as hard as I could. it took years for my father to admit his mistake, and the same for me. 15 years later, we are just beginning to repair our relationship.

always remember - all you can do is give your son everything you can. that means your experience, your thoughts, your beliefs, and your feelings. then trust him to take that and use it to grow into his own person.

[CarpeyBiggs]

edit: video removed.

[blueeyes]

I have followed this topic with much interest. I am at a crossroads of sorts myself. I grew up in Utah as a Jehovah

[rockgremlin]

Great post BlueEyes. I believe we all have similar religious conflicts in one form or another throughout the course of our lives.





Looks like I caught the George Carlin vid just in time. Thats a funny skit. I wonder if he is still a non-believer? :ne_nau:

[Iceaxe]

Looks like I caught the George Carlin vid just in time. Thats a funny skit. I wonder if he is still a non-believer? :ne_nau:

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

Wouldn't you like to know..... :haha:

:popcorn:

[fouristhenewone]

great post blueeyes. I'd definately like to hear more of your story. both my wife and i are df'd jehovah's witnesses, at around the same age you left - 16/17.

[DiscGo]

BlueEyes- I really enjoyed your post.

I guess I have really enjoyed everyone's posts and I have been shocked by the amount of honesty in this thread and the lack of flaming :).


I wonder if he is still a non-believer? :ne_nau:

Very clever comment.

[theking648]

i'm with you blueeyes...

so is everyone ready to join my church???

it's on Sundays. sometimes Saturdays and rarely on Mondays. it requires surround sound, and an article of clothing with numbers on it...


Thats right church of NASCAR. baby! :cool2:

to be a member you cant ask stupid questions, and you must love and hate at least one driver.

:lol8:

[Don]

Nice post Chere. I take some measure of offense at the outrageous flying spaghetti monster comment, but otherwise, good stuff. Thanks for sharing.




...No, no offense here, the flying spaghetti monster, like Thor, Apollo, Baal, Ganesha, Hermes, Jupiter, Luna, Odin, Quetzalcoatl, Shiva, Sol, Vishnu, Vulcan, Venus and Zeus are pretty outrageous concepts. (Seems like I may have overlooked some other pretty outrageous gods... anyone?)

[blueeyes]

Nice post Chere. I take some measure of offense at the outrageous flying spaghetti monster comment, but otherwise, good stuff. Thanks for sharing.




...No, no offense here, the flying spaghetti monster, like Thor, Apollo, Baal, Ganesha, Hermes, Jupiter, Luna, Odin, Quetzalcoatl, Shiva, Sol, Vishnu, Vulcan, Venus and Zeus are pretty outrageous concepts. (Seems like I may have overlooked some other pretty outrageous gods... anyone?)

Oh Don you should not take offense :lol8: Spenc is a Pastatarian now. Ever since that conversation where you told me about the Flying Spaghetti Monster... He has become a regular conversation item in our house. Spencer was very taken by the idea.

Ok King if I am to be of the NASCAR religion... I believe I learned living in TN to bow down to Dale Ernhardt and now that he has passed to the other side to plaster his car number all over my mine and despise that other one his name escapes me at this moment but he was kinda the bad boy of NASCAR. Help me out her who is he.

Four - I was not DF as I was never baptised. A wise old man once told me to be very careful of who I pledged myself to. He sat me down and had a very long, weed induced conversation about religion with me. Right around the time my JW family members wanted me to be baptised. Thanks Dad! :lol8: I really took to heart what he shared with me that night even though he was high. He is pretty funny when he partakes. He comes off with all kinds of what I term "Ricisms"... his philosophy on life. My Mother and Grandmother both kind of freaked out when I said I was getting baptised as Mormon. I just told them I was a big girl and could make up my own mind. They backed off and because I was never DF I was never excluded from family functions. Intresting thing happened. When I made my choice 19, my Sister was 6. My Mother had not been very active in participating at the time. In fact she had just been reinstated herself a few years earlier. My converting to Mormonism made her rethink her own life and she started religously going to church and partcipating again. My sister was DF mmm about a year and half ago. She was all tore up about it when it happened. I am really glad for her sake I am out here floating in IDK land. She at least had one person in her life that she could talk with. My Mom has never been hardcore about the "do not talk to DF members" which is good other wise I would have to slap her upside the head and knock some sense into her. My sister still goes to meetings on a regular basis. I guess when she finally gets married to her boyfriend she has been with now for about 2 years she will be reinstated.

It is hard sometimes not being JW as I really miss the family traditions. I recently mtn biked with two of my male cousins from Inspiration Point to Ben Lomond to Ogden Divide. I really miss hanging out with those guys they are so much fun and IF I where active as a JW of course we would naturally hang out more. Grandma passed recently and seeing all those people I knew as a kid even made, I guess for a lack of a better word, "homesick" feeling stronger. However not strong enough to really do anything about it.

Death just wanted to say good choice of topic and I too am suprised no one has flamed.

[Don]

Oh Don you should not take offense :lol8: Spenc is a Pastatarian now. Ever since that conversation where you told me about the Flying Spaghetti Monster... He has become a regular conversation item in our house. Spencer was very taken by the idea.


I never intended to convert anyone. I was just telling a funny story. Well, as long as His noodley power is only being used for good and comedy Spenc should be happier under the loving and watchful meatballs of a flying spaghetti monster than he would under the sin-condemnation and guilt of many other religions.
I

[greyhair biker]

In all seriousness, I do believe He exists. I don't believe He intervenes. I agree that if he intervenes for one then he would have to intervene for us all (in the spirit of fair play). I have three kids. Why would I physically act to save the life of one but not the other? It defies all logic to think that way.

I have to agree here. I'm not going to claim to be anywhere near perfection or to have all the answers but what I've learned for myself I've learned through trial and error...mostly error. I have no doubt what so ever that God watches over me. I should be dead many times over now or at the least missing bodyparts for all the 'close calls' Ive had. I see His hand in my life, of that there is no doubt. Does this mean He is saving me for something special? I have no earthly idea. I could not begin to give anyone a surefire 'sign' that God lives. I can only tell you you have to seek it out for yourself. I am not what you'd call a 'model mormon', unless JACK is a model. But I personally cannot deny what I know to be true in my life. Most of my friends are not LDS. Why? WHO CARES. I never served a full time mission...my sons never did either. But do they have a belief that God lives? Yes, they do. Why? Because it was instilled in them in our family setting. Even with that they needed to find their own established belief in God - a testimony if you will. I could not 'give' that to them - they had to find their own, even though they had to 'feed' from others - mine & their mothers' included testimonies before they could prove their own.
So, personally, Yes I do believe. Am I gonna judge anyone on here for believing otherwise? No. I have no right to. Do I believe in life after death and all that rot? Of course, and I'd love to have our friendships continue that far. Why not? I believe God is no respecter of persons. We all have an equal chance of getting back to Him. No exeptions.

[DiscGo]

I keep thinking about your post BlueEyes. First of all it kind of sounds like your ex was pretty extreme and I couldn't agree more about Sunday car rides and God not punishing you around every corner. But the part I keep thinking about was this part:

[quote=blueeyes]...I would like to get all dressed up on a Sunday and participate in those rituals. I sorta miss it. But when I sit there in church [b]I feel a big part of me is missing the

[blueeyes]

[quote=DiscGo]I keep thinking about your post BlueEyes. First of all it kind of sounds like your ex was pretty extreme and I couldn't agree more about Sunday car rides and God not punishing you around every corner. But the part I keep thinking about was this part:

[quote=blueeyes]...I would like to get all dressed up on a Sunday and participate in those rituals. I sorta miss it. But when I sit there in church [b]I feel a big part of me is missing the

[Deathcricket]

Edit: DOH!!! I had to go do some work and responded late back. So obviously I was way off. Instead of removing it though I'll leave it up for observation, hehe. Sorry BlueEyes! I was off it seems!



Not to speak for her, but I can totally emphasize with what she says and perhaps can shed some light on it. This was my observation when I was being forced to attend church 2x a week as a child.

It was comforting to be around other people, all doing the same thing. The ritual is comforting, wake up on Sundays, get dressed up, go to church, meet same people, see how their lives are, interact, etc. There was attractive girls there, the socialization aspect is great and helps us to not feel lonely.

But of course people aren't perfect, they talk crap about each other behind each other's back. In fact just after the person left the room and they were being so nice to them 2 mins before. I wonder if they are thinking or saying the same things when I left? They intentionally sin knowing the next day at church they will be forgiven. I could use a lot more examples, but won't. But the short story is I felt there was this nice presentation on the surface but underneath there were huge pockets of disease. Like a beautiful birthday cake, but when you get a slice and start eating it, you find there are maggots hidden inside?

But my family is different. I'm not going to lie and say it's perfect, far from it. But if I have a problem with someone in my family I tell them, "hey you pissed me off when you did xx" and we work it out. I try to be brutally honest with them, and hope they are brutally honest with me. I feel I can tell them anything, and if I say "please don't pass this around", they won't say a peep to anyone else. More examples of course could follow, I'll put more if you don't follow my reasoning, ok one more..

We were learning to pray in tongues in church. We would pray for divine blessing, then each person would take turns trying out their new "language". I felt so much pressure that day, because everyone else was speaking in tongues and I wasn't, that I made up a bunch of words just to fit in. Fake it till you make it, hehe. Afterwords I was praised by the pastor and he then converted my "prayer language" into a prophecy so everyone else could understand it. Everyone was patting me on the back and congradulating me for giving a "prophecy", but inside I felt like total crap. I smiled and put on a good show of course. At that point I could pinpoint where I didn't have a "family" relationship with these people. I couldn't be myself, I couldn't be honest and admit that god didn't give me my own heavenly language. Well let's be honest. I could have, but I felt pressure to perform and succumbed to it. I wanted to be part of the group but my own "maggot" had formed in my very own birthday cake.

Anyways, for me, that was where I felt the "family" aspect was missing, but being social and going through the motions 2x a week was comforting. That's what i got out of Blueeyes great post. She might have been going a different direction though, I don't know. We all interpret words differently based on our personal experiences and hers are of course very different from mine.

:2thumbs:

[DiscGo]

The thought you want to finish is that it I shouldn't get hung up on being a non-traditional family.

Yes! Thank you. I knew I had a nice simple message but I couldn't quite find it :)




Onl
y thing is do you have any clue how hard it is to sit in church and see Mom, Dad and kids happy and sitting next to each other. Dad's arm around Mom. It sucks really, when that family unit is what you want and don't have and there it is all around you in every pew.

I really don't. I can only imagine that it must be very hard. I was one of those guys who never planned to get married until they were 30+ and then just met the right girl and got married early. So I really never have been through that stage and seriously I can only imagine how difficult that must be.




I is alsoo a great reminder of how you miserably you failed!.

My wife and I were more unhappily married during the first two years of our marriage than I could have ever imagined before being married. I don't know the specifics of how your marriage ended but from everything I know of you, you sound like an awesome mother. I don't see how you could possibly be construed as anything but a success when you are an awesome Mother.





Now a reat deaal of time has passed since the last time I attended church and I bet I could go now and not come home and cry uncontrollably about all that was lost. However I don't feel the same about organized religion any longer. It has lost the mysticism.

I understand if religion isn't your thing, but like I said before if you are have as great of a Mom that appear to be, I hope you you never have to feel bad about anything you do or anywhere you go. My Dad's Dad was killed when he was 11 and he and his 4 younger siblings were raised by a single mother (my Grandmother). Anyway, from what I can tell you are a rock star mother, and more than being comfortable at church with your family sans husband, I hope you feel good about what you do.


In the end I've always been an old softy but being a good Dad is the thing about which I feel more pride than anything else I have ever done. And even when my wife makes jokes about me being a dead-beat Dad it doesn't get me down because I know she is wrong :)

[blueeyes]

Edit: DOH!!! I had to go do some work and responded late back. So obviously I was way off. Instead of removing it though I'll leave it up for observation, hehe. Sorry BlueEyes! I was off it seems!



Not to speak for her, but I can totally emphasize with what she says and perhaps can shed some light on it. This was my observation when I was being forced to attend church 2x a week as a child.

It was comforting to be around other people, all doing the same thing. The ritual is comforting, wake up on Sundays, get dressed up, go to church, meet same people, see how their lives are, interact, etc. There was attractive girls there, the socialization aspect is great and helps us to not feel lonely.

But of course people aren't perfect, they talk crap about each other behind each other's back. In fact just after the person left the room and they were being so nice to them 2 mins before. I wonder if they are thinking or saying the same things when I left? They intentionally sin knowing the next day at church they will be forgiven. I could use a lot more examples, but won't. But the short story is I felt there was this nice presentation on the surface but underneath there were huge pockets of disease. Like a beautiful birthday cake, but when you get a slice and start eating it, you find there are maggots hidden inside?

But my family is different. I'm not going to lie and say it's perfect, far from it. But if I have a problem with someone in my family I tell them, "hey you pissed me off when you did xx" and we work it out. I try to be brutally honest with them, and hope they are brutally honest with me. I feel I can tell them anything, and if I say "please don't pass this around", they won't say a peep to anyone else. More examples of course could follow, I'll put more if you don't follow my reasoning, ok one more..

We were learning to pray in tongues in church. We would pray for divine blessing, then each person would take turns trying out their new "language". I felt so much pressure that day, because everyone else was speaking in tongues and I wasn't, that I made up a bunch of words just to fit in. Fake it till you make it, hehe. Afterwords I was praised by the pastor and he then converted my "prayer language" into a prophecy so everyone else could understand it. Everyone was patting me on the back and congradulating me for giving a "prophecy", but inside I felt like total crap. I smiled and put on a good show of course. At that point I could pinpoint where I didn't have a "family" relationship with these people. I couldn't be myself, I couldn't be honest and admit that god didn't give me my own heavenly language. Well let's be honest. I could have, but I felt pressure to perform and succumbed to it. I wanted to be part of the group but my own "maggot" had formed in my very own birthday cake.

Anyways, for me, that was where I felt the "family" aspect was missing, but being social and going through the motions 2x a week was comforting. That's what i got out of Blueeyes great post. She might have been going a different direction though, I don't know. We all interpret words differently based on our personal experiences and hers are of course very different from mine.

:2thumbs:

Death I was going in both directions at once!

I despise hypocrisy.

My bet is you were not the only one who made it up.

[Scott Card]

I have really wanted to be involved with this discussion. I hope this weekend will give me some time to read this thread in detail and maybe respond. It looks like some pretty good comments have been made. I am pleasantly surprised at the positive/polite tone of this thread. :2thumbs: Quite shocking really :haha:

[R]

Even people who are good spouses collect negative feelings about themselves when their marriages end. It's part of the process. It's up to Blueeyes to do with those feelings what she will, but I can tell you that as someone who faced a lot of rejection and frustration (and the adherent wounded self-esteem) for many years, maybe she could look at those happy families as a symbol of hope. Even if she has sworn off ever getting involved romantically again, it could be a symbol of hope for the future, for our society, for her church, whatever.

I waited a LONG time and kissed a lot of frogs, but in the end, Abby and I found each other. If that's what you want, be hopeful. And if not, be glad!

(Did this all come across as "if everyone lit one candle, the world would be a brighter place?" If so, sorry.)

[blueeyes]

Discgo Thanks

My kids tell me I am a good mother. I will make that judgement call in about 12 years when they are both in their 20's. If they are productive members of society I will consider my motherhood a success. I learned from the best mother on earth who was a single mom. So I am thinking that all will go well.

[greyhair biker]

Chere' - you ROCK as a mom and anyone who is stupid enough to tell you otherwise needs to have their head rescrewed! ....just my personal opinion dear :haha:
...as for the rest of this thread, this is why I insist on staying active with the group - awesome bunch of people :2thumbs:

[Last Child]

The thought you want to finish is that it I shouldn't get hung up on being a non-traditional family.

Only thing is do you have any clue how hard it is to sit in church and see Mom, Dad and kids happy and sitting next to each other. Dad's arm around Mom. It sucks really, when that family unit is what you want and don't have and there it is all around you in every pew. It is also a great reminder of how you miserably you failed!


Oh Blueeyes, this just saddens my heart. You are such a sweet and beautiful person and have two beautiful children that you love and that love you. From all appearances you are a wonderful mother and you are by no means a failure. I consider this a huge success. You do not need a man to be whole or to be a "real" family.

All that matters is you and the love you share with your family and how honestly you live your life. Family is what it is. It is comprised of those who we share love with. It is not blood that makes family nor is it man, woman, and children. It is only love.

This is another problem that I have with organized religion. The pressure that it puts upon one to conform or the idea that we must all be the same or we have failed and the judging that takes place when one does not fit the mold. This is also why I think it is bad to think that god intervenes in ones life instead of just accepting that things happen only because of the decisions one makes, the decisions of others, and the very complex laws of nature and physics. The decisions of one affect so many more than just the one.

I have had the privilege of meeting you and sharing some time together with you. Although I don't really know you all that well I can honestly tell you that you are a person that I have great admiration and respect for you and that someone I would enjoy hanging out with. I hope that someday we may be able to sit and have a deep discussion on life and such. I think that we are an awful lot alike. Well, other than I am an ass and you are not. :mrgreen:

[blueeyes]

Ok you guys are sweet. Love all this praise, but this thread has been hijacked I think.


Back to religion..... (i love this topic when we can talk and not flame)

[R]

Ok you guys are sweet. Love all this praise, but this thread has been hijacked I think.


Back to religion..... (i love this topic when we can talk and not flame)

It's impossible to divorce religion from daily life from work from taking care of your kids, etc. It's all connected.

[Don]

Seems like every time someone gets lost or stuck on a cliff in the wilderness and it makes the local news the recently rescued person takes the time to thank god for the miracle but never the search and rescue guys who actually went and got them. I guess I could see thanking god if he reached down and plucked someone off a cliff, or if he lit a burning bush to guide someone out of the woods but either this never happens or I'm watching Comedy Central when it makes the news.
I saw a news story a week or two ago about a young couple who had gone the wrong way coming down Mt Olympus and ended up in a tree at the top of a cliff. The guy said that they took a moment to pray for god's assistance and then called 911 for rescue. It seemed funny to me that prayer comes before the thing that might actually save you.
If I ever get lost in the woods or stuck in a tree above a cliff and have to be rescued (I'll be damned embarrassed) and then I get interviewed by the local news (especially if I can get on KSL) I'm going to be sure to mention that once I got into trouble I took a moment to acknowledge that there is no god and that if I was going to get out of my predicament it was up to me.

[Last Child]

It's impossible to divorce religion from daily life from work from taking care of your kids, etc. It's all connected.

Not true and Not true. Pleanty of us do it everyday.

[Last Child]

I have a hard time understanding how an LDS person can believe in the whole "Gods plan" and believe he would intervene. I only am picking the LDS because that is how I was brought up and what I know.

The Plan:

We are all spiritual children of God. We saw Gods physical body and wanted one. God also wanted us to have a body. Two plans evolved. Satan's, to force us back to heaven by divine intervention and Christ's plan of giving us our free agency to choose and work our way home. The great war in heaven broke out and Satan and his followers lost. (I always wondered how spirits fight?) Satan and his followers were cast into outer darkness where they are pissed and always out tempting us while those of us who fought on Christ side are given the chance to come to this world, get our body and work our way home where we can continue to learn and grow to become gods ourselves and create our own worlds.

If god were to intervene we automatically loose our free agency and the laws of nature would be broken and that would fall into Satan's plan of trying to force us home. It's a contradiction with the overall plan. Also it means God has those he wants to return and those he does not. If that be the case then why did we fight for the chance to come prove ourselves?

It just does not make sense. But religion is full of contradictions like this and I don't buy the explanation of "You just have to have faith". Or in other words "because we say so". :ne_nau:

[devo_stevo]

Last Child, you bring up good points and you're right. I think that the problem here is the word "intervene". In my mind, and in my experience, the influence that God has had on me and in my life has been dependent on my actions. There is no great hand that swoops down out of heaven and picks people up and moves them out of danger. That would certainly go against everything that God stands for (read agency as you pointed out).

God works through small means to bring about greatness. I can't tell you how many times he has put others in the right place at the right time to help me out and vice versa. Maybe this is all coincidence. Personally, I don't think so. One of the things that people get hung up on is this notion that to have a spiritual experience is to have an angel visit you and the heavens are opened and you see everything. That's not how it works. You're going to be disappointed if that's what you're looking for.

I hope this makes sense. I tend to ramble incoherently sometimes. I think that you are right in your assessment. Perhaps just look at it as "influence" instead of "intervene"? That's how I see it anyway.

[DiscGo]

I totally agree with my bad spelling buddy Devo-Stevo :).

I guess I don't know what everyone considers "intervening" and that is probably an important distinction. I will share something a little personal which the skeptics will brush off as coincidence but I know it is more than that.


I was once very down on my luck and feeling pretty sad. I was by myself on this mountain top thinking about something that someone very dear to me had said which hurt my feelings very badly. I started praying and while I was praying I asked God a question of whether or not he cared about me (more or less) and I had a very clear flash back to a memory I had never really thought about until that moment.

When I was 18 I drove to Denver with my best friend and my girlfriend. It was around 2:30 in the morning and my girlfriend and best friend were asleep in the back seat together. None of us 3 were wearing our seat belts and I was traveling in between 80 - 100 mph. I started to dose off and I wasn't quite in a deep sleep yet. I opened my eyes for a second and saw a cop lights from a cop who was 15 feet from my tail. As the time I was just grateful that I did not receive a ticket, but when I remembered this instance while I was praying I could see what I had never seen before. If that cop would not have pulled me over, I would have fallen asleep and died.

So anyway, you can view this as coincidence but I view this as God intervening in my life. I was once discussing nature with an athiest friend of mine and we were talking about slot canyons. I explained to my friend that it was actually hiking the Zion narrows for the first time that I gained my own belief (testimony) of God. He told me that when he sees the narrows he sees an area where flowing water has carved through stone for long periods of time. I told him that just because he is right does not mean I am wrong. In the end you can choose to believe that everything is a coincidence but I personally have seen evidence in my life that there is a God and he watches over me.

[Last Child]

I guess we just have to believe what works for each of us. You guys prefer that God helped you out in these circumstances and that obviously helps reinforce your faith in God. Whereas I see nothing more than coincident and the decisions of others that caused your paths to cross or a deep meditation that brought about a memory.

I still see these examples of "assistance" as a contradiction with the free agency of either yourselves or others except maybe for DiscGo's memory recall which I could see as a Holy Ghost prompting on something that has already happened and is already within yourself to recall.

Anyway. Great replies guys.

[Jaxx]

Only thing is do you have any clue how hard it is to sit in church and see Mom, Dad and kids happy and sitting next to each other. Dad's arm around Mom. It sucks really, when that family unit is what you want and don't have and there it is all around you in every pew. It is also a great reminder of how you miserably you failed! Now a great deal of time has passed since the last time I attended church and I bet I could go now and not come home and cry uncontrollably about all that was lost. However I don't feel the same about organized religion any longer. It has lost the mysticism.

You need to go clubbing and put out more I guess. :roflol:

OK sorry I'll be serious now.
You have been dealt a super crappy hand. I honestly don't know what I would do if I lost my wife the way you lost your husband. I don't know what I would do if she was that hardcore about church.

I normally don't like to publicly profess my feelings, mabey because I am a man or mabey because I feel these discussions to be sacred to me. But here it goes.
I do feel like God has a hand in my life. I believe he watches over and protects me if I ask for it. I don't think I am better than anyone else for receiving the many, many, many blessings that I have received. I have been witness to a few small miracles and felt the undeniable feeling that the church is the right thing for me and my family.
I also didn't have the perfect situation when I was a kid. My parents were active LDS members but I was just going through the motions on Sunday to keep mom happy. I never served a mission. I made ALOT of mistakes as a kid but eventually found my own way back to the church thanks to my wonderful wife. I now have a strong testimony that I am in the right place for me. Some people don't function in the church on Sunday setting, and that is ok.
I am sorry to hear that you can't handle being around other families in church. As a believer in God (I assume) mabey you could pray about it. Not that you will go back to church, but help on forgiving yourself for whatever part of your husbands death you feel responsible for. I don't know the situation, but I find it hard to believe that any part of it was because of you. I hope none of this has offended you. I don't mean to get personal so please forgive me for butting in where I don't belong.

[blueeyes]

Only thing is do you have any clue how hard it is to sit in church and see Mom, Dad and kids happy and sitting next to each other. Dad's arm around Mom. It sucks really, when that family unit is what you want and don't have and there it is all around you in every pew. It is also a great reminder of how you miserably you failed! Now a great deal of time has passed since the last time I attended church and I bet I could go now and not come home and cry uncontrollably about all that was lost. However I don't feel the same about organized religion any longer. It has lost the mysticism.

You need to go clubbing and put out more I guess. :roflol:

OK sorry I'll be serious now.
You have been dealt a super crappy hand. I honestly don't know what I would do if I lost my wife the way you lost your husband. I don't know what I would do if she was that hardcore about church.

I normally don't like to publicly profess my feelings, mabey because I am a man or mabey because I feel these discussions to be sacred to me. But here it goes.
I do feel like God has a hand in my life. I believe he watches over and protects me if I ask for it. I don't think I am better than anyone else for receiving the many, many, many blessings that I have received. I have been witness to a few small miracles and felt the undeniable feeling that the church is the right thing for me and my family.
I also didn't have the perfect situation when I was a kid. My parents were active LDS members but I was just going through the motions on Sunday to keep mom happy. I never served a mission. I made ALOT of mistakes as a kid but eventually found my own way back to the church thanks to my wonderful wife. I now have a strong testimony that I am in the right place for me. Some people don't function in the church on Sunday setting, and that is ok.
I am sorry to hear that you can't handle being around other families in church. As a believer in God (I assume) mabey you could pray about it. Not that you will go back to church, but help on forgiving yourself for whatever part of your husbands death you feel responsible for. I don't know the situation, but I find it hard to believe that any part of it was because of you. I hope none of this has offended you. I don't mean to get personal so please forgive me for butting in where I don't belong.

Jaxx that was funny.

Like I said I couldn't then cuz the wounds were to fresh. But it has been 5 years and I could now, but choose not to because I have different views about religion these days.

[Jaxx]

Jaxx that was funny.

Like I said I couldn't then cuz the wounds were to fresh. But it has been 5 years and I could now, but choose not to because I have different views about religion these days.

ah dang. My reading comprehension sucks, sorry. I even hesitated on sending it.

[uintahiker]

I think the interventions that God makes are not the "you will not die" kind but the "you can choose to live if you'd like". That couple on the cliff that called 911 still had a choice when the rescuers got there...

God's actions in my life are generally add more options instead of removing them. The devil on the other hand removes and hides the positive choices available.

Three thoughts:

Any Louis Lamour fans here? I know in several of his books he says that it's much better to be in a religion that's for something rather than against something. I know I butchered it, but it IS better to live for something instead of against something.

Another thought: I'm reading the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire right now. It's a great read most of the time- occasionally it gets slow, but most of the time it's great. Anyway, it's kindof interesting seeing how in the 300's and 400's a lot of people put off baptism until death was iminent. Weather it was so they could keep on living like they knew they shouldn't, or to have their life as clean as it could be when they left the world isn't my place to say. I'm sure there were both. It's just a different viewpoint than mine.

Anyone notice how talking to God is normal, but people are viewed as wierdos when they say God talks to them? I was thinking of this earlier today and I think it's because most people view the direction that God gives them as coming through other people or the holy spirit.