the Totem: would like your opinions

[oval]

For those of you that haven't seen this yet:
http://www.canyonsandcrags.com/servlet/the-1/canyoneering-gear-rappelling-rigging/Detail

Now, I've watched the video regarding this device, and seen several things posted on the ACA forums about it, but I find it hard to justify buying this thing. The big push for it is how many different "configurations" it has. The problems that I have are that:
1. You can rig extra friction (Z system) with a standard 8 or ATC
2. You can tie-off a standard 8 or ATC in mid rappel
3. You can stone eight, rig to self-block, etc etc with a regular 8

About the only thing that you can't do with a regular 8 is belay through the slots or "autoblock" belay from the top, problems that can both be solved with different set-ups.

It just seems way more expensive and bulky, so I'm trying to figure out the configurations that really make this thing shine. If you can help me out, I'd love to hear your input. It's certainly a very well thought out and designed rap device, I'm just looking for what makes it so good.

Cheers,
Peter

[Don]

I've had mine a couple months now and quite like it. Set up a beautiful z-rig for that 300 ft rap into Englestead that kept me slow and smooth.
One thing I noticed. While using it in ATC mode and on an awkward start the device hooked up on the rocks as I slid across them and I didn't realize until the device was a good 10-12 inches away from the carabiner. Weighting it would have pulled it back into place (as long as it wasn't stuck on the rock) while at the same time dropping me those 10-12 inches. Not a huge problem on a bomber anchor but noticing it with legs dangling scared the shit out of me. I was still pretty solid on the rock and just tugged the device back into place. I won't be using it in ATC mode for awkward starts anymore.

[SLCmntjunkie]

I have a totem and like it a lot. The device is a little bit longer than other devices but I certainly wouldn't call it bulky, the weight difference is very minimal.

One thing I like about the totem is the figure 8 part of the device is smaller than others, so it gives you more friction than most figure 8s. I also love using the slots to rappel in stitch plate mode when rappelling toss n' go, it's really smooth and keeps the ropes from twisting above you. It also has a couple of ways you can rig it without disconnecting it from your harness, really nice for floating/wet disconnects.

Instead of using a stone 8, you can rig it so both sides of the rope are contingency anchors, a figure 8 can't do that although there are other ways.

The totem is nice and you can do a lot with it but like anything in canyoneering, there are several way to do things and the totem gives you a couple more.

[Iceaxe]

the Totem: would like your opinions

Canyoneerings version of a swiss army knife???

But than again.... I don't use a swiss army knife or a Totem so I can't say much other than it probably makes a cool clanking sound when you walk.....



53184

[french_de]

I like my totem. I have had it now for 6 months and have used it in many canyons. It is very versatile. I really like the ease in which I am able to lock off and adjust friction.

Two downsides; it seems to be wearing just as fast as my other favorite rapell device - the piranah, getting grooved pretty fast.
And... enduring all of the "How come your device is bigger than mine?" jokes. :lol8:

[sarahlizzy]

I didn't realize until the device was a good 10-12 inches away from the carabiner. Weighting it would have pulled it back into place (as long as it wasn't stuck on the rock) while at the same time dropping me those 10-12 inches. Not a huge problem on a bomber anchor but noticing it with legs dangling scared the shit out of me.

I'm trying to picture that, and realising that were it me, I'd be needing a change of underwear after that.

[oval]

Yeah, it's nice, but you could do all of those (minus one or two... that you could still do with a biner or two more) with a standard figure 8.

It's a fun video to watch, but I wonder if most people recognize that you can do basically all the same stuff with a normal 8, as opposed to just being dazzled.

[ratagonia]

Yeah, it's nice, but you could do all of those (minus one or two... that you could still do with a biner or two more) with a standard figure 8.

It's a fun video to watch, but I wonder if most people recognize that you can do basically all the same stuff with a normal 8, as opposed to just being dazzled.

I'm not so interested in having a huge variety of ways to rig my rope.

I AM interested in having a nice, logical, easy to comprehend progression of ways to rig with more or less friction - which is why I love the Pirana.

Tom

[Felicia]

"...you don't even need to open the carabiner. A bight of rope goes through one of the slots, then all the way around the eight. That could come in handy if you are going in and out of water. It's very easy to come off..."

I have no experience with flowing water, but this rigging caught my eye because it does look easy and there appears to be less risk of dropping gear.

Can this be done with a Pirana?


Opinions?

[nonot]

How many people have actually lost their rappelling device when doing a floating disconnect?

Also, if it can go on without needing to undo a caribiner, it can come off without undoing a caribiner! Best rig a safety on that thing! :eek1:

[ratagonia]

How many people have actually lost their rappelling device when doing a floating disconnect?

Also, if it can go on without needing to undo a carabiner, it can come off without undoing a carabiner! Best rig a safety on that thing! :eek1:

A LOT of people lose gear doing floating disconnects, so this is a valid feature (IMNSHO). The Pirana does that pretty well, but yes, you have to open the carabiner, and it sometimes swims away...

While it seems to have a lot of different rigging modes - which ones offer the correct friction level for my weight and the rope I am using? Those are the only ones I can use...

Tom :moses:

[oval]

Any rappel method that can be "undone" without undoing a carabiner is highly dangerous... IMO. You can rig a normal 8 in "stop and go" (similar to a stone 8 configuration)... but it's way to easy to unloop it over the horn.

Same goes for any of those binerless configurations... cool, sure... but one rope getting caught on the lip of a crack and the whole thing can come undone... way worse than girth-hitching an 8.

I'll pass on that configuration for safety reasons. I'm surprised it's one that's actually "recommended"... screaming "liability" imo.

edit: oops, didn't see Nonot's second line there. Completely agree. :D

[trackrunner]

Any rappel method that can be "undone" without undoing a carabiner is highly dangerous... IMO. You can rig a normal 8 in "stop and go" (similar to a stone 8 configuration)... but it's way to easy to unloop it over the horn.

You may have missed the update picture and written discription adding a saftey biner at the end.

Almost everyone has a favorite device to use. It's important to learn how to rig for differenet friction at the begging, friction on the fly, how to lock off, etc with that device.

[rcwild]

The Totem can be rigged several dozen ways for rappelling and rigging. Nobody needs to learn everything it can do. Rig it for rappelling on single strand, double strand, various rope diameters, long rappels, etc. If you have advanced beyond toss 'n go, you'll want to know how to rig a releasable eight, maybe a joker, maybe a stone eight.

So maybe you need to know 8-10 things you can do with the Totem. Beauty of it is that the 8-10 ways you learn can be different than another person's. Whatever works best for you.

It can be rigged with more friction options than a tube, figure eight or Pirana. Friction can be added on the fly easier than with a tube, figure eight or Pirana. It can be locked off mid-rappel easier than a tube, figure eight or Pirana.

It is a better choice for rigging a releasable figure eight on the anchor. Better choice for rigging a stone eight. Plus, it can be rigged in Gi Gi mode for a variety of applications.

[Brian in SLC]

Plus, it can be rigged in Gi Gi mode for a variety of applications.

Pretty amazing marriage of devices, Rich. One end kind of a Trango Magic, the other a figure eight.

I like that plaquette mode for belaying, especially two folks at the same time.

Pretty neat.

-Brian in SLC

[oval]

Any rappel method that can be "undone" without undoing a carabiner is highly dangerous... IMO. You can rig a normal 8 in "stop and go" (similar to a stone 8 configuration)... but it's way to easy to unloop it over the horn.

You may have missed the update picture and written discription adding a saftey biner at the end.

Almost everyone has a favorite device to use. It's important to learn how to rig for differenet friction at the begging, friction on the fly, how to lock off, etc with that device.

Well if you add a biner, you don't have any advantage over any other rap device that requires you to disconnect a biner before you are off the rope... sort of lose the point of the whole thing in the first place if you are locking a safety biner on it then, right?

Each to there own I suppose... even though Rich has posted all of the "modes" it can be used in, a regular 8 can accomplish all of them aside from the plaquette mode (which can be solved a number of other ways)...

...which reminds me, has anyone actually rigged it in plaquette/autoblock mode? The slots are way shorter than a GiGi, so I'm wondering what rope feed is like on various diameters of rope... a 10 to 8mm would be the most interesting to know.

[rcwild]

Well if you add a biner, you don't have any advantage over any other rap device that requires you to disconnect a biner before you are off the rope... sort of lose the point of the whole thing in the first place if you are locking a safety biner on it then, right?

Shaun was referring to using a safety biner when rigged in stop 'n go. No safety biner necessary when rigged in the other mode mentioned.


Each to there own I suppose... even though Rich has posted all of the "modes" it can be used in, a regular 8 can accomplish all of them aside from the plaquette mode (which can be solved a number of other ways)...

I didn't post all of the modes. Not even close. A regular 8 can accomplish all of them? Not even close.


...which reminds me, has anyone actually rigged it in plaquette/autoblock mode? The slots are way shorter than a GiGi, so I'm wondering what rope feed is like on various diameters of rope... a 10 to 8mm would be the most interesting to know.

Way shorter? Not really. The slots were shorter on one generation of prototypes. Settled on current slot length because it works very well with ropes from 8mm to 10.5mm.

Sounds like you made up your mind not to buy a Totem even before your first post. No worries. If everyone had the same opinion about everything, we wouldn't need so much variety -- ATC, ATC XP, ATC Guide, figure eight, Pirana, rappel rack, etc. It's all good.

There has been a substantial demand for the Totem. Enough that it will soon be available through retailers.

[oval]

No safety biner necessary when rigged in the other mode mentioned.
Which mode are you referring to here... "Slot mode"? Taken from the canyoneering.net site:
Slot Rig
The Totem can be rigged for rappelling without taking it off the carabiner. In fact, without even opening the carabiner. Pass a bight of rope through one of the slots then over the top of the Totem. Thanks to Steve Morga for this one.
Feel free to correct me, but I still see a safety issue here. If the rope gets un-hitched over the big end/eight side that it is looped over, back out the slot it goes and you are disconnected. Considering one poster already had his Totem catch a lip on Englestead in plate mode, I'd say this can happen just like girth-hitching an 8 can happen... the difference is that you are in free-fall if this happens.



I didn't post all of the modes. Not even close. A regular 8 can accomplish all of them? Not even close.
Oh I know, I'm just talking about the ones that you did list out, they can all be done with all the ones you mention. Any belay rap device that has 5 appertures would have how many total combinations? 5^5? Not really essential canyoning, though. The ones you listed in this thread are the main ones, and an 8 can do them all.


Way shorter? Not really. The slots were shorter on one generation of prototypes. Settled on current slot length because it works very well with ropes from 8mm to 10.5mm.
Yeah, way shorter. Here's my point:
You can have an ATC guide or a petzel reverso in autoblock mode... their slots are the normal "belay plate" length because they are tube devices. The problem with the GIGI is that because the slots are long to allow autoblock/plaquette mode belaying, but they insist that you not belay with a GIGI in plate mode because the slots are too long. So either: tube device with short slots, or plate device with long slots. The totem is a plate device with short slots... yes, way short; ie. belay plate length, not GIGI length. When you look at the picture in this link http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2500&page=3 it really is hard to imagine how this thing could possibly feed in autoblock/plaquette mode since the rope is wedged so tightly with no longitudinal play, hence my question. Still waiting for someone who's tried belaying 2 seconds up, or just one for that matter, and how well it feeds.


Sounds like you made up your mind not to buy a Totem even before your first post. No worries. If everyone had the same opinion about everything, we wouldn't need so much variety -- ATC, ATC XP, ATC Guide, figure eight, Pirana, rappel rack, etc. It's all good.

I was genuinely interested, but honestly, it's pretty obvious to me at this point that I can lock of a normal 8 with ease, set up a stone 8, ascend, set up Z-friction. While it may be fun to contort the rope in some new way through the totem, imo it is just extra fluff. I haven't seen any "modes" that are unique to the Totem that are must haves, or even any unique must-have-niche-scenario modes that I cant have with a normal figure 8.


There has been a substantial demand for the Totem. Enough that it will soon be available through retailers.

That's good, I hope you are 3 sigma testing it, though. And not just in a length-wise pull, but also for the "trolley method" torques that you show at the bottom of this page: http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2500&page=3.

I'm glad that other people like it and it's selling. The key is having something that you like that works for you. Obviously enough people like it, it's just not for me.

[Iceaxe]

Those still playing along at home might find this video helpful....

And this....

Totem $40
BD Super 8 (figure 8) $15
BD ATC $18
BD ATC-XP $22


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFidtjRrqLg

[rcwild]

Oval,

If you were genuinely interested, you would have asked your questions on the ACA forums where there are many people who have actually used the Totem and would be happy to share their opinions.

Of course it is true that you can accomplish many things with a simple $9.95 figure eight. So why do people spend $34.95 for a Pirana? After all, it is just a funny-shaped figure eight. They do because the Pirana allows them to do some of the things that a regular figure eight will do more efficiently or effectively. Same is true with the Totem.

You can rig a releasable figure eight block with a $9.95 figure eight or a $34.95 Pirana. But you can do it better with a Totem. No need to worry about that twist, which is the correct direction for the twist, etc. Releasable rig with the Totem virtually eliminates any chance of it binding. If you've never rigged a releasable figure eight and had it bind on you, it is unlikely you will be able to perceive that value. Cool. Stick with your $9.95 figure eight.

Many similar examples of the Totem doing the same things you can do with a figure eight or GiGi -- but doing them all much more efficiently and effectively -- and several things that you cannot do with either a figure eight or a GiGi. You will never know from looking at photos. Stop by my shop in Cedar City someday and I'll let you play around with one.

[stefan]

There has been a substantial demand for the Totem. Enough that it will soon be available through retailers.

does this mean the price will remain the same?

[Felicia]

Oval,

If you were genuinely interested, you would have asked your questions on the ACA forums.....

FWIW - I've enjoyed this tread here on Bogley. I like gear, and the Totem looks interesting. And, as Shane likes to say, for those of us that are playing at home - I'm learning about several different types of devices and riggings for different reasons/purposes. Thanks

:popcorn:

[oval]

Oval,

If you were genuinely interested, you would have asked your questions on the ACA forums where there are many people who have actually used the Totem and would be happy to share their opinions.
I did. Same issues that I brought up here. You can read it again here: http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2500&page=9
Your total response to everything I asked was:
Perfectoval,

Guessing you have never actually seen or used a Totem.

Yes, I am very aware of the Yates Belay Slave. It is the device I provided to canyoneering clients in the early/mid-90s when I was guiding.
That was the total extent of your answer. Two other people answered a total of about 5 sentences. Not exactly answering any of my questions. So I turned elsewhere for input. I'm sorry if you were/are offended, I'm just trying to pick out what makes it so great.


Of course it is true that you can accomplish many things with a simple $9.95 figure eight. So why do people spend $34.95 for a Pirana? After all, it is just a funny-shaped figure eight. They do because the Pirana allows them to do some of the things that a regular figure eight will do more efficiently or effectively. Same is true with the Totem.

You can rig a releasable figure eight block with a $9.95 figure eight or a $34.95 Pirana. But you can do it better with a Totem. No need to worry about that twist, which is the correct direction for the twist, etc. Releasable rig with the Totem virtually eliminates any chance of it binding. If you've never rigged a releasable figure eight and had it bind on you, it is unlikely you will be able to perceive that value. Cool. Stick with your $9.95 figure eight.

Many similar examples of the Totem doing the same things you can do with a figure eight or GiGi -- but doing them all much more efficiently and effectively -- and several things that you cannot do with either a figure eight or a GiGi. You will never know from looking at photos. Stop by my shop in Cedar City someday and I'll let you play around with one.

I guess the whole issue comes down to "how much more effectively" does one need... let alone how much more effective is the totem? IMO, locking off any rap device is pretty easy. There are already plenty of options for all rap/belay devices to add extra friction with ease... how much more do you need? Wet disconnects can already be dealt with several different ways, whether with different devices or rope techniques. There are loads of options for releasable systems, or isolating 2 strands of the rope. Heck, you can even use a simple Garda hitch to autoblock belay and/or ascend... you don't even need a atc guide or a GiGi... just some biners. I guess I just don't see the "ease factor" going up significantly with a Totem. In some ways, I see it as being potentially more confusing and/or tangled and complicated.


I've never felt the need for a pirana either... I'd take a Totem over a pirana if I was going to choose one or the other, fwiw. If you think a releasable figure 8 is the only way to "virtually eliminate binding" while accomplishing the task, well, there are plenty of alternate methods out there, you certainly don't have to stick with a releasable figure 8... options abound. I guess the issue comes down to degrees... I get all my basic essentials with an 8 or an atc-guide and a bit of knowledge.

My question still stands, however. I'd like to hear about the autoblock/GiGi/Plaquette mode of the Totem. It isn't shown in the video, and it is only staticly pictured in the ACA totem thread. Just asking for some feedback on this. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm trying to find out about this method of use. I've had a GiGi that I beat the crap out of climbing and canyoning... love the setup... just want to find out if it works, as I'm having a hard time visualizing it with belay plate length slots... I've never seen a plate with a slot length that is good at both belaying and autoblock belaying at the same time... that's why I'm so riveted on this question.

I'm really not trying to dis the Totem Rich... I think it's a cool device for what it is, I just started this thread to see if there was some configuration that I was totally missing by not owning the Totem. From what I've heard so far, it makes adding friction easier mid rappel, but that's about it.

Hopefully I'll get a chance to fondle one soon. Maybe it will change my mind to see it in action. Other people like it, and that's good to hear, I guess just from what I've "seen" so far, their posts aren't enough to convince me that its amazingly better than a regular 8. I'm sure I'll check one out soon enough. :D

[Iceaxe]

If you were genuinely interested, you would have asked your questions on the ACA forums where there are many people who have actually used the Totem and would be happy to share their opinions.

... :lol8:.... That's like going to the BYU forum and asking what's the best religion.

After reading through the responses on Bogley it appears to me that a nice cross section of opinions have been expressed. Including "many people who have actually used the Totem".

:five:

[hank moon]

Any rappel method that can be "undone" without undoing a carabiner is highly dangerous... IMO. You can rig a normal 8 in "stop and go" (similar to a stone 8 configuration)... but it's way to easy to unloop it over the horn.


Care to amend the "any"? There are many rap devices that can be threaded and de-threaded w/o touching a carabiner. All as "safe" as anything else...

[oval]

I was talking about "fig-8 methods". I have yet to need a rack for rappelling.

[Bo_Beck]

I was talking about "fig-8 methods". I have yet to need a rack for rappelling.

WoW! You're missing out! I love my HB Mini Rack with Brake Bars. Too bad HB no longer is around! I have lowered 3 people with gear and a litter hundreds of feet; have rappelled from the top of Angels Landing; used it many times to come out of Heaps etc. The stainless bars are awesome for sharpening my Puma; Enough mass that after a long rappel I can warm a cup of tea; Pick-offs are quick and easy; Heavy enough that if needed I could use it as a weapon against a lion attack; Last trip in Heaps (3 weeks ago) I brought down Elaine with me to save time! On the fly friction adjustment with the 2 hyper-bars. I haven't tried rigging it sideways, upside down, through the slot, inside of a hollow bar or any other config. yet, but you are giving me some GREAT Ideas! Really though....I have found that an ATC pretty much has always been just fine for personal use. I have never had a problem using one. Don't wear gloves, never burnt my hands or fingers, have used it to lower others....maybe if I were heavier I would change my tune? I've had to climb back up A LOT and I find that ascenders, tiblocs, prussiks and or climbing skills have worked just fine thus far!?

Enough said...I would still love to play with a TOTEM!

[rcwild]

Enough said...I would still love to play with a TOTEM!

I'll ship one out to you this week, Bo.

[Bo_Beck]

Enough said...I would still love to play with a TOTEM!

I'll ship one out to you this week, Bo.

Awesome Rich! I really, really need to take the time to participate in some of your workshops one of these days! I got this new DVD the other day (I think its called "Means of Production"?) that is a group of Britts navigating Class 6 canyons in their Kayaks all over the world! DANG it looks fun and makes me want to learn some "swiftwater canyon" techniques. You DA MAN Rich! Not sure if this link will have the "Trailer"?

http://www.vasentertainment.com/featuredfilms.php

The link only opens VAS Entertainment; Go to Kayaking- and click on Means Of Production to see the Video Trailer! It's AWESOME!

[rcwild]

Awesome Rich! I really, really need to take the time to participate in some of your workshops one of these days! I got this new DVD the other day (I think its called "Means of Production"?) that is a group of Britts navigating Class 6 canyons in their Kayaks all over the world! DANG it looks fun and makes me want to learn some "swiftwater canyon" techniques. You DA MAN Rich! Not sure if this link will have the "Trailer"?

Cool video, Bo. Thank you for the link. The record for waterfall drops in a kayak has been broken and re-broken lately. Now over 200 feet. Those guys are crazy.

The offer I made to you a few years ago still stands -- you are welcome to take any course I teach as my guest. It's the lease I can do, considering all you do for Zion SAR. You might also consider having Desert Rat host some ACA courses. My Canyons & Crags does not have an exclusive deal on courses.

I am working on another project -- canyon rescue related -- that I know will interest you. I'll keep you in the loop via private emails.

[rcwild]

Peter,

First ... you are using different usernames, so I did not make the connection. I went back and reread your post on the ACA forum. Your post seemed more like negative comments to me than actual questions ... except for the one about the Yates Belay Slave, which I answered. Others responded to your comments about the Totem being bulky, so I didn't see a reason to repeat.

I'm not sure if I am doing a very poor job communicating or if you are being selective in your reading. Either way, I'll try to address a few of your issues.

It needs to be clear that the Totem does not have an ATC (tube) mode. The mode Don mentioned in his post is more accurately described as a Sticht Plate mode. Using the Totem, people are calling this throttle mode. The length of the Totem provides a lever that can be used to add or subtract friction - like a throttle. When using two strands of rope, the strands can be inserted into separate slots. When using one strand of rope, it is important to make a loop in the rope so you can insert one strand from the loop into each slot. One rope in one slot without the twist won't provide enough friction for all but very very light people.

Also important to note that in throttle mode, the Totem is not attached to the carabiner. It can get away from you, like it did in Don's situation. If you have your rope length set to rappel into water, you can also lose it when it comes off the end of the rope. I recommend people attach it to their harness with a tether. And, as Don pointed out, Throttle mode is not recommended for awkward starts. People who use throttle mode think it is really cool. It is. But I wouldn't use it as my primary rigging mode. It is ideal for long rappels where you might want to add a little friction near the bottom.

The distinction between tube mode and Sticht Plate mode is important when addressing Peter's question about the slot length. For those unfamiliar with a Sticht Plate, it is a flat piece of metal with two slots in it. Tube devices are an improvement over a Sticht Plate because their thickness provides more surface area, thus greater friction.

Plate or plaquette mode (ala Kong GiGi) comes in handy for belaying two climbing partners at the same time. I used it extensively when guiding climbing clients on multi-pitch routes. Ropes going down to each climber are passed through the slots (one rope per slot) in such a way that the climber's weight will lock off them off on their rope. One climber makes a couple moves as the belayer (leader) pulls their rope through the plate. Second climber makes a couple moves while the belayer pulls their rope through the plate and so on. If either climber falls, their rope is locked off automatically, so the belayer can control one brake strand in each hand.

The Petzl Reverso may have been the first tube device to add a second connection point so it can be used in plate mode. Black Diamond followed with their ATC Guide. Then the Petzl Reverso3. At the OR Show I noticed other gear companies with similar devices. All are designed to add versatility by allowing one device to serve as rappel device, normal belay device, plus plate belay device.

Comparing the Totem's slots to the slots of an ATC Guide is not comparing apples to apples. Both are 1 9/16" compared to 2" for the Kong GiGi. But the ATC Guide is a tube device with deep slots. The Totem is more like a Sticht Plate. Peter contends that no one plate device can do a good job at both normal belaying and plate (autoblocking) mode belaying. He hasn't said what devices he has tried that led him to this judgment. Trango Magic? Salewa Guide Evo? ATC Guide? Reverso? Reverso3?

Prior to making a prototype of the Totem, I went out with a fiend to test the ATC Guide. I belayed him from above using 8mm, 9.2mm, 10mm and 10.3mm ropes. It ran smoothly on all of the ropes. I was a little concerned about holding power on an 8mm rope so I made the slots shorter on the first prototype. Holding power was fine on 8mm, but thicker ropes - 10 and 10.3 - didn't run as smooth as I wanted, so I made them longer on the final prototypes. As it turned out, holding power on an 8mm was quite satisfactory after all.

The production version of the Totem has been used to belay in several "normal" modes -- rope through slot and into carabiner, rope through small hole and into carabiner, standard figure eight, canyon -- plus a few I can't even describe. And yes, it has been tested in plate mode with two climbers using all rope combinations mentioned above.

[rcwild]

I think Peter misunderstood one of my comments about releasable figure eights. I wasn't saying that the releasable figure eight will "virtually eliminate binding". I meant if you are using releasable figure eights, the way you do it with a Totem will virtually eliminate binding compared to the way it is rigged with a regular figure eight.

There are three parts to all releasable rigs (aka contingency anchors). 1. the friction mechanism that will allow you to lower someone if the need arises; 2. the releasable-under-tension mechanism; and 3. the safety mechanism that will keep the rig from releasing accidentally.

When you rig a releasable figure eight block, the rope is rigged on the eight in standard mode (friction mechanism). Next you pass a bight of rope back through the large hole of the eight and wrap it around the small end (releasable-under-tension mechanism). Then you clip a carabiner through the small hole and onto the slack side of the rope or onto the anchor (safety mechanism).

The problem is ... because the releasable-under-tension mechanism is rigged between the figure eight and the rappel ring, it is under pressure when loaded. On occasion it will bind up in such a way that it prevents release. Fix is fairly simple. Clip your safety tether into the big hole of your figure eight and put some weight on it to pull the eight away from the rappel ring.

The fix is unnecessary with the Totem. Rig the friction mechanism with the rope going over the long (slot) end. Rig the releasable-under-tension mechanism by passing the rope up through one of the slots and over the small end. Then rig the safety mechanism the same as you would with a normal figure eight. The releasable-under-tension mechanism is now on the side of the Totem away from the rappel ring and cannot get bound up.

[oval]

Peter,

First ... you are using different usernames, so I did not make the connection. I went back and reread your post on the ACA forum. Your post seemed more like negative comments to me than actual questions ... except for the one about the Yates Belay Slave, which I answered. Others responded to your comments about the Totem being bulky, so I didn't see a reason to repeat.
Yes, Perfectoval and Oval are a bit different. Now you know for sure that it is me.

It seems to me that once someone is on your "bad side", suddenly everything is taken in a negative light, Rich. I made some observations and asked a question about the Totem (it's large, what can it do that can't be done by other devices? does the autoblock mode feed well?) and asked for people's experience. No one gave me time of day for the autoblock/plaquette positioning question. It's clear that you were offended since you viewed it as an "attack" on your idea when really all it was was a "looking for feedback on potential issues I see" comment. I even offered the idea of perhaps improving your device by combining some of your ideas with a smaller version, or spinning part of it off of the Yates Belay Slave... which again you took as an insult that I was saying you didn't know what it was. Seems I can't win with you anyway that I slice it.


The production version of the Totem has been used to belay in several "normal" modes -- rope through slot and into carabiner, rope through small hole and into carabiner, standard figure eight, canyon -- plus a few I can't even describe. And yes, it has been tested in plate mode with two climbers using all rope combinations mentioned above.
This is the simple answer that I was looking for, so thanks! I now know that I can expect it to autoblock on static rope from 8-10mm and that it will feed ok. You have answered yes, and that was what I was looking for. I look forward to testing this out for myself. If it can do a 10mm, I might be interested.


The distinction between tube mode and Sticht Plate mode is important when addressing Peter's question about the slot length. For those unfamiliar with a Sticht Plate, it is a flat piece of metal with two slots in it. Tube devices are an improvement over a Sticht Plate because their thickness provides more surface area, thus greater friction.
Splitting some hairs here, but tube gives the device distance from the carabiner, which eliminates binding. This was the main reason for the development of tube style devices. It's why "plates" had springs added to them originally... to keep them from binding against the belay biner.

Comparing the Totem's slots to the slots of an ATC Guide is not comparing apples to apples. Both are 1 9/16" compared to 2" for the Kong GiGi. But the ATC Guide is a tube device with deep slots. The Totem is more like a Sticht Plate. Peter contends that no one plate device can do a good job at both normal belaying and plate (autoblocking) mode belaying. He hasn't said what devices he has tried that led him to this judgment. Trango Magic? Salewa Guide Evo? ATC Guide? Reverso? Reverso3? I happen to have used the GiGi, as I have stated already. And an ATC guide and Reverso and B-52. I'm not sure why that matters since my point is that any PLAQUETTE model does not allow belaying in schhhhhtict plate mode because the slots are too long to do such a thing due to inadequate friction. Kong instructs you to not use it as a belay device unless rigged in plaquette mode... no belay plate allowed. Trango magic only authorizes autoblock mode in their instructions.

Then, to look at the TUBE style devices: the ATC guide and the Reverso, you can see that they have a distance of height from the belay biner and an offset anchor-attach point and therefore have shorter slots that allow enough friction to be maintained when belaying in tube mode, while being able to move rope smoothly through the slots in autoblock mode due to the depth and offset anchor attachment.

So my answer is no: I haven't ever seen a smoothly running flat PLATE device that can be used to belay in PLAQUETTE mode and in shchchtickt PLATE mode. I've only seen TUBES that can do both belay modes, but never have I seen a flat plate device that can do both and give enough friction. Nor have I seen any instructions that recommends using a flat autoblocking device to be used in s.plate mode. Again, I look forward to checking it out since you claim otherwise; sounds like I need to see it to believe it.


I think Peter misunderstood one of my comments about releasable figure eights. I wasn't saying that the releasable figure eight will "virtually eliminate binding". I meant if you are using releasable figure eights, the way you do it with a Totem will virtually eliminate binding compared to the way it is rigged with a regular figure eight.

Or you could simply use a tube-style device and tie it off with a Mule knot instead. Or use a Munter Mule. If you are that worried about binding, I'd suggest an alternate option. You could even provide an active belayer to hold a device locked off if you are THAT WORRIED about someone loosing control and getting caught by the rope while in a hydraulic. Like I said, lots of options available.

[rcwild]

It seems to me that once someone is on your "bad side", suddenly everything is taken in a negative light, Rich. I made some observations and asked a question about the Totem (it's large, what can it do that can't be done by other devices? does the autoblock mode feed well) and asked for people's experience. No one gave me time of day for the autoblock/plaquette positioning question. It's clear that you were offended since you viewed it as an "attack" on your idea when really all it was was a "looking for feedback on potential issues I see" comment. I even offered the idea of perhaps improving your device by combining some of your ideas with a smaller version, or spinning part of it off of the Yates Belay Slave... which again you took as an insult that I was saying you didn't know what it was. Seems I can't win with you anyway that I slice it.

You are misinterpreting, Peter. I and several other people assumed you were just another sock puppet and intended to ignore you completely. Debated whether or not I should even approve your post, but I did. Spoke to some people over the weekend who still don't think you are a real person. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt now, in part because I seem to recall a Peter Springs on the Yahoo Canyons Group back when I still owned it. I do think you have a hidden agenda, but only you know for sure.

I don't expect to sell thousands of Totems. Far from it. I know it is a specialty item that will appeal to some; not to others. I am okay with that and your critiques don't bother me. But don't be offended because I choose not to completely redesign it based on one person's comments, especially since those comments come from someone who has never even used it.

Capitalism and free market at work here. If everyone was happy with a plain old figure eight or GiGi we would not have -- round eights, square eights, eights with tabs, eights with ears, rescue eights, mini eights, Double Eights, Pirana, ATC, ATC XP, ATC Guide, ATC Sport, Reverso, Reversino, Reverso3, Verso, SBG, Pyramid, Jaws, B52, Ovo, Ghost, Trango Magic, Salewa Guide Evo, BRD, Variable Controller, VC Pro II, Single Rope Controller, etc, etc, etc.

[oval]

You are misinterpreting, Peter. I and several other people assumed you were just another sock puppet and intended to ignore you completely. Debated whether or not I should even approve your post, but I did. Spoke to some people over the weekend who still don't think you are a real person. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt now, in part because I seem to recall a Peter Springs on the Yahoo Canyons Group back when I still owned it. I do think you have a hidden agenda, but only you know for sure.


Wow, tell me how you really feel, LOL! You are either paranoid or egotistical or maybe you just have a lot of enemies that you are worried about... or perhaps all of the above.

I've never met you in person, Rich, but it's safe to say that if that's how you deal with someone who posts a nearly identical post here (which I'd say was a great discussion with some good feedback) and is worried about even approving them to have a discussion, stomping on what "hidden agenda" they might have, or if they are a "sock puppet" of one of your enemies... well, I feel extremely sorry for you as a person. Good luck with "your" forums over there.

[cookiecutter]

Maybe a beaten to death thread, but I quite like the totem. Can't give any personal experience, sorry, but large number of possibilities right in front of me in one item is appealing. The less gear I can carry the better. But chalk it up on the list of wants: aca tech canyoneering course, imlay pack, totem..etc. a poor college kid is priced out. Cool goals though!

[rcwild]

Wow, tell me how you really feel, LOL! You are either paranoid or egotistical or maybe you just have a lot of enemies that you are worried about... or perhaps all of the above.

I've never met you in person, Rich, but it's safe to say that if that's how you deal with someone who posts a nearly identical post here (which I'd say was a great discussion with some good feedback) and is worried about even approving them to have a discussion, stomping on what "hidden agenda" they might have, or if they are a "sock puppet" of one of your enemies... well, I feel extremely sorry for you as a person. Good luck with "your" forums over there.

You have an interesting way of twisting words around.

[Iceaxe]

large number of possibilities right in front of me in one item is appealing. The less gear I can carry the better.

I'm not seeing how you would get by with less gear packing a Totem..... I normally carry a rappel device (ATC XP), Tiblocs, several biners, webbing, some accessory chord and my rope when doing a normal tech canyon with friends.

So my question is.... how does the Totem eliminate any gear? I can see swapping out one piece of gear for anther but I'm not really lightening my load which is what I'm usually striving to do.

What gear are you guys packing that a Totem would eliminate? Are you lightening your loads and/or eliminating gear or just swapping one item for anther?

:popcorn:

[rcwild]

... But chalk it up on the list of wants: aca tech canyoneering course, imlay pack, totem..etc. a poor college kid is priced out. Cool goals though!

Nobody should ever let money stand in their way of pursuing training from the ACA. Send me a private email at rcwild at mac dot com. We'll work something out for you.

[cookiecutter]

Nobody should ever let money stand in their way of pursuing training from the ACA. Send me a private email at rcwild at mac dot com. We'll work something out for you.

E-mail sent. Thanks!

[Don]

Nobody should ever let money stand in their way of pursuing training from the ACA. Send me a private email at rcwild at mac dot com. We'll work something out for you.


Shit like that is going to get you a bad reputation around the interwebs Rich. You just can't treat people like that and not have it affect your reputation long term.

:haha:

[david_mcnay]

Bo,

What exactly does it mean to "sharpen your puma"?

I would like to give a rack a try one of these days, and a mini sounds about right. I have used a regular 8 and ATC and prefer the pirana much more. I am looking forward to getting my totem all scratched up soon, and am excited for the possibilities. I currently use my 8 still for blocks, and I assume the totem will replace that, no weight loss, but no big gain. But it will do some things that my current gear will not, so instead of having to go out and buy more specialized gear the totem will take care of some of that. IMO.

[Bo_Beck]

Bo,

What exactly does it mean to "sharpen your puma"?

I would like to give a rack a try one of these days, and a mini sounds about right. I have used a regular 8 and ATC and prefer the pirana much more. I am looking forward to getting my totem all scratched up soon, and am excited for the possibilities. I currently use my 8 still for blocks, and I assume the totem will replace that, no weight loss, but no big gain. But it will do some things that my current gear will not, so instead of having to go out and buy more specialized gear the totem will take care of some of that. IMO.

Just a joke, but it would work! I carry a "Puma Knife" in my emergency kit. I use the HB Mini Rack with brake bars (two of which have hyper "ears"). HB Co. is no longer around, but I've found one almost identical (even better!) by CMI. It's the CMI Hyper Rack Extreme. Runs around $80.

[hank moon]

I use the HB Mini Rack with brake bars (two of which have hyper "ears"). HB Co. is no longer around, but I've found one almost identical (even better!) by CMI. It's the CMI Hyper Rack Extreme. Runs around $80.

Another great choice is the BMS brand (originator of the micro-rack):

SS bars for extra abrasion resistance...the CMI seem cheaper up-front, but the BMS will last much longer.

http://www.innermountainoutfitters.net/catalogentry.php?search=MICRO%20RACK&catalogentryid=361&brand=BMS

[Bo_Beck]

I use the HB Mini Rack with brake bars (two of which have hyper "ears"). HB Co. is no longer around, but I've found one almost identical (even better!) by CMI. It's the CMI Hyper Rack Extreme. Runs around $80.

Another great choice is the BMS brand (originator of the micro-rack):

SS bars for extra abrasion resistance...the CMI seem cheaper up-front, but the BMS will last much longer.

http://www.innermountainoutfitters.net/catalogentry.php?search=MICRO%20RACK&catalogentryid=361&brand=BMS

My HB is SS (hollow) and has lasted about 10 years. Unfortunately since HB is gone I can't find replacement bars. The thing I like about the HB and the CMI is the width of the frame. I can run twin 11mm ropes side by side if needed. The BMS is great but too narrow to run twin 11mm's. Not that this is crucial, but may be handy? The other thing I like about both the HB and CMI is that they both have the hyper bars. I have not seen the BMS that does? The CMI Extreme has solid alloy bars, and I'm certain that they can be purchased independently. Anyway, I have no doubt that the BMS works equally as well as any!

[hank moon]

My HB is SS (hollow) and has lasted about 10 years. Unfortunately since HB is gone I can't find replacement bars. The thing I like about the HB and the CMI is the width of the frame. I can run twin 11mm ropes side by side if needed. The BMS is great but too narrow to run twin 11mm's. Not that this is crucial, but may be handy? The other thing I like about both the HB and CMI is that they both have the hyper bars. I have not seen the BMS that does? The CMI Extreme has solid alloy bars, and I'm certain that they can be purchased independently. Anyway, I have no doubt that the BMS works equally as well as any!

Hey Bo

I hear ya on the frame width - if you need the ability to run double 11mm...

Check the link I posted for pix of BMS w/hyperbar (and double Hbar)

[Bo_Beck]

My HB is SS (hollow) and has lasted about 10 years. Unfortunately since HB is gone I can't find replacement bars. The thing I like about the HB and the CMI is the width of the frame. I can run twin 11mm ropes side by side if needed. The BMS is great but too narrow to run twin 11mm's. Not that this is crucial, but may be handy? The other thing I like about both the HB and CMI is that they both have the hyper bars. I have not seen the BMS that does? The CMI Extreme has solid alloy bars, and I'm certain that they can be purchased independently. Anyway, I have no doubt that the BMS works equally as well as any!

Hey Bo

I hear ya on the frame width - if you need the ability to run double 11mm...

Check the link I posted for pix of BMS w/hyperbar (and double Hbar)

Sure will! Gotta get back to work, but will check this evening. Here is a picture taken 4 weeks ago coming out of Heaps. I have Elaine double daisey chained to me and we both have full packs. I had way too much friction riding twin 8mm's coming out! Should have ridden a single line! :ne_nau:

[hank moon]

Here is a picture taken 4 weeks ago coming out of Heaps. I have Elaine double daisey chained to me and we both have full packs. I had way too much friction riding twin 8mm's coming out! Should have ridden a single line! :ne_nau:

phah. OBviously your packs were too light! Just add water...

[ratagonia]

Sure will! Gotta get back to work, but will check this evening. Here is a picture taken 4 weeks ago coming out of Heaps. I have Elaine double daisey chained to me and we both have full packs. I had way too much friction riding twin 8mm's coming out! Should have ridden a single line! :ne_nau:

C'mon !!! I can't be the only one what wants to know ---

Why???

Tom :moses:

[hank moon]

C'mon !!! I can't be the only one what wants to know ---

Why???

Tom :moses:

Stunt enhancement, yo.

duh...

:mrgreen:

[Bo_Beck]

Sure will! Gotta get back to work, but will check this evening. Here is a picture taken 4 weeks ago coming out of Heaps. I have Elaine double daisey chained to me and we both have full packs. I had way too much friction riding twin 8mm's coming out! Should have ridden a single line! :ne_nau:

C'mon !!! I can't be the only one what wants to know ---

Why???

Tom :moses:

Gettin' late. Wanna git out 'fore' dark! 3 more above yet! I made it back to the vehic. without a headlamp. They didnt! :ne_nau:

[Iceaxe]

Stunt enhancement, yo.

Bo get's my vote for "stunt of the week".

:hail2thechief:

[hank moon]

Bo get's my vote for "stunt of the week".

ditter

:hail2thechief: :hail2thechief:

do i see a x3 prostrator in the future?

[ratagonia]

Coming up with a plausible justification for pulling off a dramatic stunt???!

:hail2thechief: :hail2thechief: :hail2thechief:

T

[hank moon]

beat the Noodle closin' ?

:hail2thechief: :hail2thechief: :hail2thechief: :hail2thechief:

[Bo_Beck]

Dang, but NO! I think we were all in the vehic at around 9:45! Loooooong day for sure! 5:20 AM to 9:45PM! :lol8:

[moab mark]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y59Ofuj3cK0

[trackrunner]

To answer your question in the other thread I've played around with one. I like it. A couple ways became my favorite (vertaco, throtle, stop & go but not on free hanging raps, z rig). I primarly carry an atc-xp or piranha (sometimes Petzl Huit AntiBrulure). I like how the totem combines the best of a stitch plate (or tube style) & 8 devices.

I also liked the ease of locking off in the different modes. Also liked the ease of adding more friction on the fly. Yes you can accomplish these two things (and a ratchet function of the totem) with extra biners while using other devices, but I found it much easier with the totem, just MHO. If you don't think the ease is worth the premium in price, stick with your current rig. That's the market at work; different strokes for different folks

This will become my next device purchase after my current ones wear out.
YMMV

[Iceaxe]

The Totem is the new toy, every time a new gadget comes out its all the rave

[Iceaxe]

Here is anther Youtube video showing numerous methods for rigging the Totem...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a9d0r-BDrI

[rcwild]

Now available in black ...

[Chungy22]

That new black one is pretty cool! Is there a trade in option? I don't know if I would trade my cool neon blue for black....... I am just wondering!! ;)

[bruce from bryce]

Hey Iceman,
I didn't see a double eight in your collection. You didn't buy one? Cheers!

[Iceaxe]

Hey Iceman,
I didn't see a double eight in your collection. You didn't buy one? Cheers!

The collection of rappel devices in the picture is not my personal collection.... that was a sample of all the different devices that were in our group for a Bogley trip through Rock of Ages in Moab.

:rockon:

[Iceaxe]

[QUOTE=Iceaxe;392971]It will be fun to revisit this thread in two years after the WOW factor wears off and see if the Totem is standard kit or collecting dust

[trackrunner]

i use one. I switch between stitch plate & figure 8 style all the time. my choice is dependent on rope twists, floating disconnects, water landings, friction needed, rappel length, etc. also use the contingency rigging. it seams to last longer from wear because my two preferred ways of rigging, there are 6 possible orientations.

it is my second device choice behind a munter, and ahead of a naked Dulfersitz :haha:
YMMV

[Don]

I'm on my second Totem after leaving one in a pothole. (Stitch plate mode, pulled the end of the rope through so nothing left attaching the device. Didn't even notice until the next rap. Dumb, but in my defense the water was chilly and my (then 8 year old) son was coming down the rap above me and had all my attention.)
It's my primary device and I still quite like it. Hard for me to gauge durability though since I don't get out as often as some of you, and like I said; it's my second one.

[french_de]

I used the totem for about a year. I liked all of its features. I also liked the Pirana.Then I discovered the Sterling ATS. Have not gone back to the Totem or Pirana since.

[Bo_Beck]

Started using an 8 ring device 23 years ago and then switched to a sticht plate, then the ATC then to the ATC XP. For lowers or 2 person rappels the HB small rack with 4 bars and hyperbars or Conterra Scarab. For rescue lowers or raises the MPD. Still use ATC XP a lot and have no reason to swap. Munters work well when without, and Dulfersitz in a pinch. Never used a "Totem" and don't intend to start.

[nielse2]

I love my totem, I always use it as a releaseable rigging whenever i have anyone on the line that might have a problem (girls with long hair)....

I love the versititility and use it as my primary device. Mostly for the fact that the lever allows you to take the friction off your hand and gives you much more control...

[Branin]

I use the totem as my primary device. Lasts me about twice as many canyons as the piranas on my loaner harnesses. As for durability compared to tube or 8 style, it totally depends on the tube or 8. I've used lots of different devices, and settled on the totem for now. I like it lots. On my third one. Out of my most frequent canyoneering partners I can think of three who use 8's, three who use piranas, two who use tubes (ATC-guide in one case SBG-II in the other) and four totems (including me)