Zion-slot canyon info request

[Belchingdog]

Hey Guys,

My girl and I will be in Zion 8/10-14. We have hiked there (Angels landing etc) but want to do some slots. We have a pass for the narrows (top-down) on the 11th and I am looking for some more slots that are do-able to folks pretty new at it. We are both in top shape but my girl has never rappelled and would rather start with some not so technical slots before we get into it further. I would really appreciate any suggestions/info at all. Thanks. Gear recommendations would also be appreciated..do I need to get 5-10 canyoneers for virgin narrows? About how long wil it take us ?(we are both in great shape- run-swim Mtn Bike daily)
I would really appreciate some feedback from the experts- you guys...thx
Mark

[price1869]

www.climb-utah.com

all the info you need.

[robjenson]

For the Narrows, it's not technical...there may be some scrambling over log jams, but other than that, the most difficult part is footing on the rocks you walk over...

With respect to shoes, I have hiked from the top down twice, once in nike's and once in beat-up merrills and I felt fine, so I don't think you need a special shoe...your shoes will definitely be wet pretty much the whole time though...

I'd say plan at least 10 hours from the top down, but some people take a bit longer...are you planning on paying for a shuttle to the ranch? if so, I'd recommend taking the 6 or 7 am shuttle...

Here is a link to some photos of the narrows from a recent trip I got off another website, which shows a log jam and other aspects of the narrows:

http://s511. photobucket. com/albums/ s358/iamfeliciau s/Narrows% 20June%202009/

[ratagonia]

Hey Guys,

My girl and I will be in Zion 8/10-14. We have hiked there (Angels landing etc) but want to do some slots. We have a pass for the narrows (top-down) on the 11th and I am looking for some more slots that are do-able to folks pretty new at it. We are both in top shape but my girl has never rappelled and would rather start with some not so technical slots before we get into it further. I would really appreciate any suggestions/info at all. Thanks. Gear recommendations would also be appreciated..do I need to get 5-10 canyoneers for virgin narrows? About how long wil it take us ?(we are both in great shape- run-swim Mtn Bike daily)
I would really appreciate some feedback from the experts- you guys...thx
Mark

And your girl is how old??? 6 or 26? "girl" is a somewhat ambiguous term.

Zion is not known for its slots, per se, but it does have some nice Narrow Canyons. Check out Middle Echo Canyon from the bottom (no rappels, two brief swims or deep wades at the beginning)... check out Hidden Canyon (a nice hike).

The Narrows is Wonderful. I recommend renting the shoes and the hiking set, unless money is tight for you. The Shuttle is highly recommended, unless you have two cars, and even then... Ski Poles work really well for the Narrows. The "book time" is twelve hours, so if your "girl" is over the age of 16 and you are vigorous hikers, then 8-10 hours is a reasonable time. An early start gets you past the first couple hours while the temperatures are still cool.

More info on rental and on shuttles available: http://www.zionadventures.com

Tom

[Ryebrye]

Tom didn't recommend it in his post - perhaps he's too modest - but I HIGHLY recommend you buy Tom's book:

http://canyoneeringusa.com/shop/product.php?productid=16309&cat=108&page=1

It has some very good detailed instructions on some of the canyons - and would give you a ton of information to make an informed decision about what to do to spend your time. (In addition to giving you lots of good information about your Narrows Hike)

His book is quite good and would help make your trip much more enjoyable.

Think of it this way: Your Narrows permit costs you at least $15 or $20 depending on your group size... and the only information it gives you is "don't shit in the river" and "check the weather before your trip."

Tom's book costs about the same as one permit, but it contains a ton more info.

climb-utah.com also has good information, as well as canyoneeringusa.com - but I'm partial to carrying dead trees around with pretty pictures. (Tom's book makes "plan B" scenarios very easy to handle - so if you see bad weather on the day of your Narrows hike you could quickly look in the book and find something else fun to do.)

[ratagonia]

Tom didn't recommend it in his post - perhaps he's too modest - but I HIGHLY recommend you buy Tom's book:

http://canyoneeringusa.com/shop/product.php?productid=16309&cat=108&page=1



Thanks Ryebrye. 'preciate ya!

T :moses:

[AJ]

Re-iterating what Tom said; it would be good to get some more info on you guys; age and fitness being two big factors. However, check out Keyhole for a good Intro to Canyoneering canyon. It's quite short, with short rappels. However, you will still need to be able to rappel, and may need/want a wetsuit...

[Belchingdog]

Thanks to all of you for your help. I did purchase Tom's book-will hopefully arrive soon.
Info on us..I am 45, my girl is 46. We are both in excellent shape, we run, swim , Mtn bike etc daily. The physical part does not concern me, the technical part does caution me as Iam smart enough to hopefully-stay alive.
We are hiking the narrows Aug 11, and have the 12th-14th open to suggestion. I will have rappel gear. I used to rock climb but it has been at least 10 years. I am going to a rock gym tomorrow for a refresher.
If any of you guys will be there doing a slot and wouldn't ming us two tagging along ..that would be awesome! and dinner would be on me.
Thanks again guys...I really appreciate it.

[Bo_Beck]

Tanya and I have accumulated some info as well. If you don't already have your platter full, you might look around here

http://www.zionnational-park.com/zion-national-park-canyoneering.htm

Or here.

http://www.zionnational-park.com/hiking-zion-national-park.htm

Cheers! :2thumbs:

[Scott Card]

May I suggest the typical progression of canyons in Zion. Subway, Keyhole, Mystery, Pine Creek. Or maybe Pine Creek then Mystery??? I would highly recommend the good beta as suggested above so that you understand clearly the risks and equipment needs. Tom's book IS really good. Heck, the Back Country desk at Zion is 'sportin' a copy for all to see. Also, I would suggest that you post questions about particular canyons so you can get an idea of what others experienced and more particularly, current conditions. Some canyons in Zion are quite dynamic in that the potential for change is great (Pine Creek for one)

[Belchingdog]

Thanks guys- very much appreciated. Bo- I have been looking at your sight for months now.
I guess being a newbie, there is a little trepidation -first in finding the start of some of these routes...finding the wrong route, if possible. etc.
I want us to have a great adventure..and be as smart and safe as possible.
I will stick to the slots advised..Subway, Keyhole, Mystery. Just wanna be sure where I'm going and what I need to accomplish.
Thank you guys very much..Twylla and I are very excited to experience Canyoneering.

[Iceaxe]

Gear recommendations would also be appreciated..do I need to get 5-10 canyoneers for virgin narrows?

NO, Just wear some old running shoes that can stay wet all day long. 5.10 Canyoneers are nice, but that is something you add to your arsenal down the road if you stick with the sport.

This will also help you with some gear ideas....

Canyoneering Gear
http://climb-utah.com/Misc/gear.htm


:popcorn:

[Belchingdog]

Again thanks guys ...I really appreciate it.
A few more questions if you would be so kind.
Our plan -s Narrows-Keyhole-Subway..maybe red cave.
How much rope will I need? Slings etc?
Are wetsuits needed?
Helmets?
Thank you...

[MiCanyoneer]

Again thanks guys ...I really appreciate it.
A few more questions if you would be so kind.
Our plan -s Narrows-Keyhole-Subway..maybe red cave.
How much rope will I need? Slings etc?
Are wetsuits needed?
Helmets?
Thank you...

This info is available in Tom's book.
But here is my recommendations based on our experience
Subway- 60 ft rope works great
Keyhole - 120ft rope
I would always recommend helmets.
You may want to consider Orderville.

I would think you may want/need a wetsuit for Keyhole maybe just to avoid having all the organic material on your body but the water in there is very cold.

Subway and Orderville no wetsuit needed if temperatures are high and you don't mind spending a few minutes in cold water.

but this all depends on your cold tolerance.

[nonot]

120 ft rope in keyhole...for what?

[ratagonia]

120 ft rope in keyhole...for what?

The rappel used to be off a tree some way back from the edge, for the first rap. A new bolt station makes this better (and will keep that tree from getting killed by our trampling feet). Therefore 'the book' says 60 foot longest rappel - but with the new anchor, it really is 30 foot longest rap so a 60 foot rope will work fine.

Tom

[sarahlizzy]

120 ft rope in keyhole...for what?

The rappel used to be off a tree some way back from the edge, for the first rap. A new bolt station makes this better (and will keep that tree from getting killed by our trampling feet). Therefore 'the book' says 60 foot longest rappel - but with the new anchor, it really is 30 foot longest rap so a 60 foot rope will work fine.


The backcountry desk gave us a little talk about this bit when we picked up our keyhole permit the other week, mentioning they'd installed some new bolts to help prevent soil erosion, and furnished us with a photocopy from a bit of your book showing the currently accepted approach route for minimising impact.

[Bo_Beck]

120 ft rope in keyhole...for what?

I used 60' in Keyhole a couple weekends ago. The second drop is sort of two-tiered. 60' doubled over from the bolt anchor just reached the pool below.

[ratagonia]

120 ft rope in keyhole...for what?

The rappel used to be off a tree some way back from the edge, for the first rap. A new bolt station makes this better (and will keep that tree from getting killed by our trampling feet). Therefore 'the book' says 60 foot longest rappel - but with the new anchor, it really is 30 foot longest rap so a 60 foot rope will work fine.


The backcountry desk gave us a little talk about this bit when we picked up our keyhole permit the other week, mentioning they'd installed some new bolts to help prevent soil erosion, and furnished us with a photocopy from a bit of your book showing the currently accepted approach route for minimising impact.

Just to clarify: "new bolts were installed". The BC Desk does not install anchors.

Tom

[oldno7]

120 ft rope in keyhole...for what?

The rappel used to be off a tree some way back from the edge, for the first rap. A new bolt station makes this better (and will keep that tree from getting killed by our trampling feet). Therefore 'the book' says 60 foot longest rappel - but with the new anchor, it really is 30 foot longest rap so a 60 foot rope will work fine.


The backcountry desk gave us a little talk about this bit when we picked up our keyhole permit the other week, mentioning they'd installed some new bolts to help prevent soil erosion, and furnished us with a photocopy from a bit of your book showing the currently accepted approach route for minimising impact.

Just to clarify: "new bolts were installed". The BC Desk does not install anchors.

Tom

Sure they do(backcountry rangers) if they can see a clear fix to resource degredation.

[sarahlizzy]

120 ft rope in keyhole...for what?

The rappel used to be off a tree some way back from the edge, for the first rap. A new bolt station makes this better (and will keep that tree from getting killed by our trampling feet). Therefore 'the book' says 60 foot longest rappel - but with the new anchor, it really is 30 foot longest rap so a 60 foot rope will work fine.


The backcountry desk gave us a little talk about this bit when we picked up our keyhole permit the other week, mentioning they'd installed some new bolts to help prevent soil erosion, and furnished us with a photocopy from a bit of your book showing the currently accepted approach route for minimising impact.

Just to clarify: "new bolts were installed". The BC Desk does not install anchors.

Tom

Sure they do(backcountry rangers) if they can see a clear fix to resource degredation.

Pretty sure her exact words were, "We've installed some bolts to help you out", so she certainly seemed to be claiming responsibility for them on behalf of the park.

[Bo_Beck]

120 ft rope in keyhole...for what?

The rappel used to be off a tree some way back from the edge, for the first rap. A new bolt station makes this better (and will keep that tree from getting killed by our trampling feet). Therefore 'the book' says 60 foot longest rappel - but with the new anchor, it really is 30 foot longest rap so a 60 foot rope will work fine.


The backcountry desk gave us a little talk about this bit when we picked up our keyhole permit the other week, mentioning they'd installed some new bolts to help prevent soil erosion, and furnished us with a photocopy from a bit of your book showing the currently accepted approach route for minimising impact.

Just to clarify: "new bolts were installed". The BC Desk does not install anchors.

Tom

Sure they do(backcountry rangers) if they can see a clear fix to resource degredation.

Pretty sure her exact words were, "We've installed some bolts to help you out", so she certainly seemed to be claiming responsibility for them on behalf of the park.

I'm pretty certain that the "Park" does not wish to place permanent anchors, nor would they claim that "they" have. This would be a certain set-up for a lawsuit. The feds have pretty deep pockets, and it seems that a lot of folks are just waiting to reach in. ( a lot of folks already do). JMTCW

[Iceaxe]

This would be a certain set-up for a lawsuit. The feds have pretty deep pockets, and it seems that a lot of folks are just waiting to reach in. ( a lot of folks already do). JMTCW

Yes and no.... and a little off topic.... but the Feds have one huge advantage when it comes to lawsuits.... and that is you can't sue the Feds without the Feds permission (pervious comment is the Readers Digest condensed version).

:popcorn:

[bruce from bryce]

BelchingDog,
One item that may have not been mentioned is to get some rappelling practice for your 'girl'. Also, you didn't say whether it would be just the two of you but you may want to take along a 3rd person who has done some canyons to provide that extra assistance on her rappels. It is not recommended to learn how to rappel in your first canyon even though I personally know of one who did it. Enjoy your trip.

bruce from bryce

[Belchingdog]

Guys..thanks once again for your help. I have also called a few of the outfitters in the area and have honestly gotten a little conflicting info re: rope lengths needed. Since most of my rope is 11mm I don't wanna be draggin more than I need.
In any case I'm thinkin beings it my first time we will hire a guide and do a slot outside the park, hopefully will be able to pick up enough good info to hit a few more slots in the park over the next few days.
You guys at Bogley have been very helpful to me so, which of the guide services would you recommend, I know there are several, we do not need to rent equipment and hope this can help somewhat in the cost. Thanks!!!

[Belchingdog]

Also Bruce- very good advice. I am taking her to the local rock gym this week to teach her to rappel. Thanks for your input.

[Felicia]

You guys at Bogley have been very helpful to me so, which of the guide services would you recommend, I know there are several, we do not need to rent equipment and hope this can help somewhat in the cost. Thanks!!!

I have not contracted the services of a guide in the Zion area, but I have made many purchases and rental transactions with Zion Adventure Company. Everyone at ZAC has been very knowledgeable, professional and helpful.

I'm not sure how much money you will be able to save because you have your own equipment. I guess you will have to do your homework. Have you considered that this would be a good chance for you to check out other types of equipment. I can tell you that there is a big difference between an 11mm rope and 8mm. Personally, I like gear. I'm fascinated with all the different choices that can be made, and how everything works. When I travel with other people, I learn more...maybe you will have the same experience.


:rockon:

[nonot]

I think with the money you would put towards a guide, you could buy all the canyoneering gear you might ever need. Of course if one doesn't know how to use all their newly acquired booty then a guide is alot more valuable.

I thought you couldn't guide in Zion?

[Felicia]

I thought you couldn't guide in Zion?

You are correct, guiding is not allowed within Zion National Park. But, there are guiding services located near Zion that guide in the area near Zion.